will the crisis give birth to a wave of separatism in europe?

[Sasha]

So a round up from the news I just saw;
- the flemmish separatist (non-racist right-wing) N-VA just won a massive victory in the belgium local elections.
- the separatist (social-dem) SNP in Scotland just came to an agreement with the u.k. government on a independence referendum in 2014.
- more and more catalonians support full independence from spain.

Will we, probably still within the EU, see independence for regions not considered possible a few years ago.
And will this lead to renewed separatist violence in places with a poorer negotiating position like the basque-country or corsica?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There's also the ridiculous Venitian Independence movement (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9589732/Mass-rally-in-Venice-to-call-for-independence-from-Italy.html).

Somehow I doubt that there'll be any success. It's just an easy scapegoat for the bourgeoisie to fall back on: 'if only we were independent, then the economy would be working perfectly!' as if it matters what flag is waving above you when your economy is pretty much governmed by international finance.

[Questionable]

As James Connolly said:

"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs"

[Jimmie Higgins]

as if it matters what flag is waving above you when your economy is pretty much governmed by international finance.

Yeah I'm curious about how much this actually plays into some of these movements. On the one hand, breaking up regions into smaller political entities could make it easier for the EU ruling classes to get around old protections and reforms in the process. Then again, are some of these pushes based around the desire to get out of these arrangments?

I'm not that familiar with any of these movements or the politics behind them in Europe.

[x-punk]

I dont know about the other groups but the SNP in Scotland's independence package is not quite as it seems.

A few years ago Scotland got a devolved parliament. With this, a number of functions which westminster controlled were devolved to this parliament. Although this seemed like a major step very little changed. Most of the major decision making was still with Westminster and much of it has to conform with EU legislation leaving little leeway for maneuver.

This 'independence' action is really nothing of the sort. I had a guy from the SNP round my door not too long ago and he was trying to stir up the usual patriotic stuff to get my vote. When i quizzed him about what would happen if the people voted for independence he explained very little would happen. The queen would still be the head of state, the country would still use the Pound and many of the legislative functions would still be retained by Westminster and would have to conform upwards with EU legislation. Really its just a further devolution step away from westminster.

However, the really confusing thing is that one of the SNP's primary goals is full integration with Europe and the EU taking on the currency and the legislation. Although, if it ever got to that stage, the people in Scotland are promised a vote on it. So in a nutshell, what the SNP really want to do is eventually break far enough away from Westminster so the can become a fully fledged member state of the EU. Not really the independence touted in their propaganda.

[Sasha]

Oh, I have no illusions about the sort of "independence" the SNP is striving for (although I find it intriguing to see a social-dem separatist party). I mostly wonder whether a successful "independence within the e.u." as now seems possible for Scotland, catalonia and flanders due to their sudden powerful economic and/or political cloud will give rise to new separatist ambitions in regions where it will surely not be tolerated. Which might lead, in combination with the general economic, social and political unrest to a wave of instability we haven't seen in the last 2 decades inside the e.u. borders.

[Rottenfruit]

So a round up from the news I just saw;
- the flemmish separatist (non-racist right-wing) N-VA just won a massive victory in the belgium local elections.
- the separatist (social-dem) SNP in Scotland just came to an agreement with the u.k. government on a independence referendum in 2014.
- more and more catalonians support full independence from spain.

Will we, probably still within the EU, see independence for regions not considered possible a few years ago.
And will this lead to renewed separatist violence in places with a poorer negotiating position like the basque-country or corsica?
Hope so i think we are witnessing the collapse of captalism and the death of the europian union, and i do understand why people want to be sepearte from the eu because the eu is a captalist scam that has the goal to make the top 0.1% richer and the working class poorer.

By the way where is the headquarter of the eurpioan union? Belgium and where are the the flemmish separatists? In belgium, if belgium would seperate into two states it would be a serious blow to the europian union.
It would show how weak the eu is if they cant even prevent belgium for splitting into two states and belive me the eu will try every damn thing they can do to stop belgium from splitting into two states

[Rottenfruit]

Yeah I'm curious about how much this actually plays into some of these movements. On the one hand, breaking up regions into smaller political entities could make it easier for the EU ruling classes to get around old protections and reforms in the process. Then again, are some of these pushes based around the desire to get out of these arrangments?

I'm not that familiar with any of these movements or the politics behind them in Europe.
Not in the case of belgium, Its where the headquarters of the europian union are, If they cant even control Belgium from splitting where the "center" of the eu is they will appear weak,useless and will bolden other nations to tell the eu to stick it where the sun does not shine.

[cynicles]

I think this goes with what could happen in Greece: It may be pessimistic but I honestly I think this type of thing could very well happen in there. It's this Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) stuff. There's been gossip that Greece might split ties from the EU and close itself up to immigrants and tighten up with who can visit, people are scared that Greece will take that road to a separatist or nationalist rule for a while....I'd like to remain confident that the Greek people can fight these fascists though. Maybe they need some help?
Not really the same thing though since Sparta or Crete isn't exactly threatening to break away from the rest of Greece.

[Die Neue Zeit]

If these regional separatist movements are still pro-EU, then I have no issue. Personally, I'd like to see Little England chauvinism lose its British neighbours to the EU.

[Sheepy]

Having the capitalists lose their slave territories to the other capitalists is hardly productive.

[Crux]

If these regional separatist movements are still pro-EU, then I have no issue.
Yes, because that makes total sense. From a left-wing point of view I mean. For an independent Scotland or Catalonia to join the EU would be, which should be obvious, a very bad move.What positive do you possibly conceive coming from that? Then again I am talking to the guy who thinks the GUE/NGL is some kind of international alliance, rather than a parliamentary group, so who knows what you think the EU is.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

If these regional separatist movements are still pro-EU, then I have no issue. Personally, I'd like to see Little England chauvinism lose its British neighbours to the EU.

What is with these racial anti-England overtones?

There is no national road to Socialism, and there is no national road to capitalism either - the nation-state was borne out of necessity for capitalism, to protect plunder, mercantilism, protectionist economic policy. It was not borne out of some nationalist political sentiment.

There is nothing better about an independent capitalist Scotland under the rule of those neo-liberal SNPers, than there is about a capitalist England, a capitalist UK or Great Britain. It's all very similar as the economic system doesn't change, and indeed separatism just creates a further cultural barrier to cross-border working class solidarity.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yes, because that makes total sense. From a left-wing point of view I mean. For an independent Scotland or Catalonia to join the EU would be, which should be obvious, a very bad move.What positive do you possibly conceive coming from that? Then again I am talking to the guy who thinks the GUE/NGL is some kind of international alliance, rather than a parliamentary group, so who knows what you think the EU is.

What allows the working class to organize at the most pervasive level possible? Euro-skepticism isn't the answer, no matter how much left cover.

No, I don't think the latter is an "international alliance," but I have said repeatedly that it should become an EU version of SYRIZA, being beyond a cheap parliamentary caucus.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The CSU Bavarian politicians have been publicly talking about secession for a "Bavarian State". As Capitalism is going through a time of transformation, of crisis of the current system, the Bourgeoisie are very split and increasingly are playing with weirder ideas than usual.

[Rottenfruit]

If these regional separatist movements are still pro-EU, then I have no issue. Personally, I'd like to see Little England chauvinism lose its British neighbours to the EU.
What? That makes no sense the eu is captalistic system to abuse workers :confused:

[Crux]

What allows the working class to organize at the most pervasive level possible? Euro-skepticism isn't the answer, no matter how much left cover.

No, I don't think the latter is an "international alliance," but I have said repeatedly that it should become an EU version of SYRIZA, being beyond a cheap parliamentary caucus.
The EU? You genuinely believe this?

No, you've seemed to believe this is even remotely likely to happen any time soon.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I used "EU" as an adjective, not a noun. :confused:

Two, three, many SYRIZAs may be good, but one SYRIZA at the EU level is better.

[Crux]

I used "EU" as an adjective, not a noun. :confused:

Two, three, many SYRIZAs may be good, but one SYRIZA at the EU level is better.
No you see I asked a question you can't answer. How would it be in any way beneficiary for the Scottish or Catalonian working class to be members of the EU?

Well I'm at this point unsure whether you understand what either of those mean.

[Q]

No you see I asked a question you can't answer. How would it be in any way beneficiary for the Scottish or Catalonian working class to be members of the EU?

As a class movement we need to, at the very least, pose alternatives on the continental level and since the EU is an existing political continuum, posing as a wannabe-state, we need to engage with that.

I for one oppose the splitting up of GB though. A separate Scotland is no step forwards. Posing the question of socialism at a Scottish level, like the SSP did, is ridiculous at best.

But the national questions that Europe is riddled with are very real and need a socialist answer. And since socialists argue for the biggest possible unity of our class, I think the best way forward is to be found in a slogan for a federal republic of Europe. This in turn poses the question of "what kind of Europe?" and "who is the agent for such change?" to which we must answer "a socialist Europe, won by the working class".

[piet11111]

I think DNZ means the EU territory not the organization.

Because EU the organization is something we will never be able to turn into a socialist instrument.

[Prinskaj]

I for one oppose the splitting up of GB though. A separate Scotland is no step forwards. Posing the question of socialism at a Scottish level, like the SSP did, is ridiculous at best.
So what about the Irish Republic? That was a splitting of a Great Britain, should they be integrated into the Union again?
PS: I am not trying to argue anything, I am merely interested.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think DNZ means the EU territory not the organization.

Because EU the organization is something we will never be able to turn into a socialist instrument.

Of course, but there's so much opportunist euro-skepticism (a.k.a. nationalism) on the left that it isn't funny. "Overthrowing the EU" to set up a worker-class polity but still spanning the same EU territory is different from opportunist departures from said body.


No you see I asked a question you can't answer. How would it be in any way beneficiary for the Scottish or Catalonian working class to be members of the EU?

Besides comrade Q's answer above, it's telling you didn't lob a shot or two in the Theory thread on a European Communist Party.

[piet11111]

Opportunist departure of the EU organization ?

I will admit that i am thoroughly drunk right now but the organization is simply not able to be reformed to work for us.

Its bourgeois "democracy" heaped upon more bourgeois "democracy" that really manages to put the mocking into democracy.

DNZ do you really think such an organization can be made to work towards socialism ?

[Crux]

Of course, but there's so much opportunist euro-skepticism (a.k.a. nationalism) on the left that it isn't funny. "Overthrowing the EU" to set up a worker-class polity but still spanning the same EU territory is different from opportunist departures from said body.



Besides comrade Q's answer above, it's telling you didn't lob a shot or two in the Theory thread on a European Communist Party.
So, explain again how an independent Scotland or Catalonia (or Basque county etc etc) would *benefit* from *joining* the EU. Because I didn't quite catch it this time either. Oh right, you made no real argument, sorry. Except shaking your fist at those "euro-sceptics". And indeed you seem to be confusing the institution that is the EU with...well, Europe. So again, to remind you, a new independent state would not automatically be members of the EU. Why on earth do you believe they should join the EU? I mean, do you believe Norway, for example, is somehow cut-off from it's neighbouring countries just because they happen to not be members of the EU? Do you think Norway should join the EU, and if so why?

No, I see no direct value in reading your theory threads. If it comes to that I'd rather read the Weekly Worker, why not go to the source instead of the gibberish-lingo rip-off?

[Will Scarlet]

If these regional separatist movements are still pro-EU, then I have no issue. Personally, I'd like to see Little England chauvinism lose its British neighbours to the EU.
Most little englanders would live to 'get rid' of Scotland, they hate Scottish people as they hate anyone that isn't them, they think England subsidises Scotland and somehow dictates to England. :mellow:

[Q]

So what about the Irish Republic? That was a splitting of a Great Britain, should they be integrated into the Union again?
PS: I am not trying to argue anything, I am merely interested.

My quarrel was with those that think you can establish socialism in Scotland (or Ireland for that matter). As a European I call for a genuine federal republic that unites our class on a continental level. If the working classes of the British Isles wish to (con)federate within that context, that is up to them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Opportunist departure of the EU organization ?

I will admit that i am thoroughly drunk right now but the organization is simply not able to be reformed to work for us.

Its bourgeois "democracy" heaped upon more bourgeois "democracy" that really manages to put the mocking into democracy.

DNZ do you really think such an organization can be made to work towards socialism?

Why do you think Marx and Engels called for a unified Germany before calling for a workers' revolution against bourgeois control of said unified Germany?


So, explain again how an independent Scotland or Catalonia (or Basque county etc etc) would *benefit* from *joining* the EU. Because I didn't quite catch it this time either. Oh right, you made no real argument, sorry. Except shaking your fist at those "euro-sceptics". And indeed you seem to be confusing the institution that is the EU with...well, Europe. So again, to remind you, a new independent state would not automatically be members of the EU. Why on earth do you believe they should join the EU? I mean, do you believe Norway, for example, is somehow cut-off from it's neighbouring countries just because they happen to not be members of the EU? Do you think Norway should join the EU, and if so why?

You fail to make the distinction between the EU and the eurozone. There are members of the EU that aren't members of the eurozone. Given the eurozone mess right now, if it serves the interests of workers in separatist regions to join the EU but not the eurozone, then they should do so.

[piet11111]

Why do you think Marx and Engels called for a unified Germany before calling for a workers' revolution against bourgeois control of said unified Germany?

They also supported a struggle for independence once or twice for i think ethnic groups wanting to get free of Russia.
They thought Russia was so reactionary that this would be better for them.

I hold a similar view of the EU organization that its so thoroughly bourgeois that we can not use it for our own ends and instead must link up with proletarian organizations in its member states and work from below up.

[Rottenfruit]

Of course, but there's so much opportunist euro-skepticism (a.k.a. nationalism) on the left that it isn't funny. "Overthrowing the EU" to set up a worker-class polity but still spanning the same EU territory is different from opportunist departures from said body.



Besides comrade Q's answer above, it's telling you didn't lob a shot or two in the Theory thread on a European Communist Party.

euro-skepticism is nationalism? So being a against the eu is nationalistic? :laugh:

The eu is a enemy to the working class and sooner it crashes and dies the better

[Rottenfruit]

As a class movement we need to, at the very least, pose alternatives on the continental level and since the EU is an existing political continuum, posing as a wannabe-state, we need to engage with that.

I for one oppose the splitting up of GB though. A separate Scotland is no step forwards. Posing the question of socialism at a Scottish level, like the SSP did, is ridiculous at best.

But the national questions that Europe is riddled with are very real and need a socialist answer. And since socialists argue for the biggest possible unity of our class, I think the best way forward is to be found in a slogan for a federal republic of Europe. This in turn poses the question of "what kind of Europe?" and "who is the agent for such change?" to which we must answer "a socialist Europe, won by the working class".

If septerists movements lead to the collapse of the eurpian union that is a good thing, besides the Scottish separatists arnt violent extremists.

[l'Enfermé]

That's simply bullshit comrade. A genuine worker's movement would have much easier time ending bourgeoisie supremacy(and actually being built!) in a politically integrated Europe. The EU is an appropriate institution to bring that about, if it was modified(and it's not like that's out of the question).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That's simply bullshit comrade. A genuine worker's movement would have much easier time ending bourgeoisie supremacy(and actually being built!) in a politically integrated Europe. The EU is an appropriate institution to bring that about, if it was modified(and it's not like that's out of the question).

What modifications do you think the EU, as an institution, needs in order to be fit to 'end bourgeois supremacy' for a 'genuine worker's movement'? And how would you suggest we go about making these modifications?

[l'Enfermé]

I didn't say that, I said that the class struggle could we waged more effectively in a united Europe, and moreover, I didn't say that "we" need to modify it at all. "We" need not get involved at all.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I didn't say that, I said that the class struggle could we waged more effectively in a united Europe, and moreover, I didn't say that "we" need to modify it at all. "We" need not get involved at all.

If you think class struggle could be waged more effectively in a united Europe, why wouldn't you get involved and help 'modify' the EU to make Europe more united? I don't understand? :confused:

[Crux]

You fail to make the distinction between the EU and the eurozone. There are members of the EU that aren't members of the eurozone. Given the eurozone mess right now, if it serves the interests of workers in separatist regions to join the EU but not the eurozone, then they should do so.
Yeah, no shit. I live in one of those countries. I fail to see the importance of that distinction when you're still yet to make an argument whatsoever for why joining the EU isn't just a terrible idea that hollows out parliamentary democracy and put even more power into the hands of european big business through their effective lobbying in Brussels.
So it seems you think Norway should join the EU. Interesting. See that's the point: it doesn't serve worker's interests to join to EU.

[Igor]

although I find it intriguing to see a social-dem separatist party

I've almost thought being soc-dem or at least left-of-centre to be the norm for these movements, especially the actually prominent ones. Like, Lega Nord and Catalonian CDC are pretty much the only right-wing ones I can think of, but then you have SNP, Bloc Quebecois, Catalan Republican Left, plenty of Basque nationalist parties and the Welsh separatists that are all using pretty leftist rhetoric and have social democratic politics. Most of the right-wing ones seem to be really weird local ones that really don't have any popular mass support behind them.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yeah, no shit. I live in one of those countries. I fail to see the importance of that distinction when you're still yet to make an argument whatsoever for why joining the EU isn't just a terrible idea that hollows out parliamentary democracy and put even more power into the hands of european big business through their effective lobbying in Brussels.
So it seems you think Norway should join the EU. Interesting. See that's the point: it doesn't serve worker's interests to join to EU.

I think we should also make clear that, whilst it's kinda pointless to advocate joining the EU for countries that are not already members, we should also oppose countries who are members of the EU wishing to leave the EU, since I do think that is a step backwards from any future workers' integration within europe.

But yeah, you're right, I don't see why joining the EU is something that is anything other than derisory as some sort of 'positive' idea.

[Crux]

I think we should also make clear that, whilst it's kinda pointless to advocate joining the EU for countries that are not already members, we should also oppose countries who are members of the EU wishing to leave the EU, since I do think that is a step backwards from any future workers' integration within europe.

But yeah, you're right, I don't see why joining the EU is something that is anything other than derisory as some sort of 'positive' idea.
I don't think the EU will lead to an actual integration of Europe, the way Germany was united etc. I don't think it's possible to do at this stage under capitalism. Rather it acts as an agent of the big European capitalists, primarily the French and German, where there is in turn national competition as well. So yeah I just don't see that as likely over all, and even less so as a result of the EU.

[LiberationTheologist]

Having the capitalists lose their slave territories to the other capitalists is hardly productive.

Productive for who, the capitalists who are attempting to sell everyone the same food, clothes and cars in every country? What a great way for capitalists to take over by total monopolization. I think nationalization can be very productive in opposing capitalism.

Do you know how hard it is to organize rebellion in a large state? Have you looked at the historical campaigns of mass murder and despotism that was and is carried out by large nations? Do you see the destructive militarist power that large states can muster? Look at India, USA, Russia, Germany, China. Look at the murder and oppression these large states carry out.

Smash the state indeed! Smash it into hundreds of pieces and then watch how much easier it is to take over.

Right now I believe that this overall strategy of denouncing nationalism is one of the largest and most damaging mistakes of communism/socialists, if not the largest. I am currently reading Marxism and the National Question by Stalin and I wonder if this where this orthodox communist/socialist thought comes from. Someone show me where Marx or Engels offered any decent analysis of the national question because I am not sure where this popular and almost universal (among communist parties and partisans) comes from.

Only capitalists fear the breakup of their states? No. All states oppose it and why? Because the state wants to dominate, it knows nothing else.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't think the EU will lead to an actual integration of Europe, the way Germany was united etc. I don't think it's possible to do at this stage under capitalism. Rather it acts as an agent of the big European capitalists, primarily the French and German, where there is in turn national competition as well. So yeah I just don't see that as likely over all, and even less so as a result of the EU.

It certainly won't act as an agent of integration, no. But global capitalism can be seen as the imperial epoch of capitalism - a latter stage in the system's development, following on from industrial capitalism. To this end, whilst I don't think defending teh EU as a political entity (as some implicitly do in this thread, to their shame) is a positive action, it can merely be seen as a development in capitalism - from capitalism largely dictated at a national level, to capitalism directed at European, continental level and probably beyond. This allows the class struggle to easier transcend national borders, I believe.

We must make a distinction between opposing the EU, the organisational entity, and opposing EU integration. The former we should do always and everywhere, the latter we should not, it is somewhat reactionary when one considers the development of capitalism from a Marxist perspective.

[Crux]

It certainly won't act as an agent of integration, no. But global capitalism can be seen as the imperial epoch of capitalism - a latter stage in the system's development, following on from industrial capitalism. To this end, whilst I don't think defending teh EU as a political entity (as some implicitly do in this thread, to their shame) is a positive action, it can merely be seen as a development in capitalism - from capitalism largely dictated at a national level, to capitalism directed at European, continental level and probably beyond. This allows the class struggle to easier transcend national borders, I believe.

We must make a distinction between opposing the EU, the organisational entity, and opposing EU integration. The former we should do always and everywhere, the latter we should not, it is somewhat reactionary when one considers the development of capitalism from a Marxist perspective.Capitalism is already international. The EU is and remain a tool for the european capitalist class. I have yet to see a good argument for it.

You claim it helps transcend borders for the working class struggle. How?

[Crux]

So a round up from the news I just saw;
- the flemmish separatist (non-racist right-wing) N-VA just won a massive victory in the belgium local elections.
- the separatist (social-dem) SNP in Scotland just came to an agreement with the u.k. government on a independence referendum in 2014.
- more and more catalonians support full independence from spain.

Will we, probably still within the EU, see independence for regions not considered possible a few years ago.
And will this lead to renewed separatist violence in places with a poorer negotiating position like the basque-country or corsica?
Getting back to this.
Spain/Catalonia (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6016)

Capitalist crisis, the struggle for self-determination and workers’ unity (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6016)

31/10/2012 (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6016)
Growth in support for independence as early elections loom (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6016)
Socialismo Revolucionario (CWI in Spain) declaration (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6016)

[Bakunin Knight]

I think it's beneficial for the states to be divided against eachother, rather than to have a centralized state united in control of its subjects. It might be possible to have a regional step towards anarchy, and the flourishing that would result could force the decline of the state elsewhere through competition. This is especially so in Spain - Catalonia and the Basque country being key areas of separatism - where there is a tradition of anarchist thought. At the very least the iron grip that the corporatists have over Europe could be broken.