Mongolia removes last statue of Lenin

[Questionable]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19940437

Curiously enough, their statue of Genghis Khan still stands...

[Igor]

idk the genghis khan statue is pretty ballin, not somethin that you can say about the countless of pretty much similar lenin statues i couldn't really give a fuck about

[Tim Cornelis]

It is completely understandable. He is the symbol of the oppression these people suffered under for so many years.

Genghis Khan has become a symbol for neo-Nazis so I wouldn't mind the removal of that megalomaniac-looking statue either, but as Igor said it is a unique stature whereas Lenin statues are generic.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I wonder if the statue of Choibalsan at the Mongolian State University still stands.

[the last donut of the night]

i hope it's melted down and used to make 24 inch chrome

[Ostrinski]

I actually kind of agree with Tim Cornelis. Whether or not it's accurate, Lenin symbolizes a repressive system, unfortunately. People are probably glad to see it go based on their experiences with the last regime, not their ideological disagreements with Lenin.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

There never should have been a personality cult to begin with as statues in general are nothing but propaganda. Considering Mongolia's history I am not surprised they are taking them down but I disagree about the oppressive aspect; when one takes into account the counterrevolutionary ideology and nature of capitalism I do not see how they are any freer than under the old rule (provided I am no historian on Mongolian history).

[Ocean Seal]

You know fuck you guys I like Lenin statues. And they symbolize a lot more than the Eastern bloc regimes.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

haha Ocean Seal beat me to it, fuck it dude Lenin statues and posters are the shit. I say we build some more:laugh:

[RedAnarchist]

So it's Goodbye, Lenin?

[l'Enfermé]

I wonder when they will take down that obscenity of a tomb which houses Lenin's remains in Moscow. The man deserves to be buried properly at least.

[Ostrinski]

You know fuck you guys I like Lenin statues. And they symbolize a lot more than the Eastern bloc regimes.I agree but many Mongolians probably don't.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I wonder when they will take down that obscenity of a tomb which houses Lenin's remains in Moscow. The man deserves to be buried properly at least.

Interestingly enough I think Lenin originally wanted to be cremated (though I could be mistaken).

[Krano]

There's plenty more where that came from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Lenin

[l'Enfermé]

Interestingly enough I think Lenin originally wanted to be cremated (though I could be mistaken).
I believe Nadezhda Krupskaya insisted that Lenin wished to be buried next to his mother. Both his sisters and his brother opposed the mummification too. Cremation, I believe, was looked very badly upon by the superstitious peasantry and the Russian worker would have probably found it distasteful too.

A similar thing happened when Engels died too. He wanted to be cremated, but the leading German Social-Democrats wanted to ignore his will and build great monument at his grave. In the end though, they were swayed to follow his will and he was cremated and his ashes were scattered.

[Questionable]

You know fuck you guys I like Lenin statues. And they symbolize a lot more than the Eastern bloc regimes.

And considering that Mongolia has suffered the devastating effects of free-market capitalism like so many other Eastern Bloc countries, the removal of this statue symbolizes a lot more than Mongolians "escaping oppression."

[Prometeo liberado]

I wonder when they will take down that obscenity of a tomb which houses Lenin's remains in Moscow. The man deserves to be buried properly at least.

What are you superstitious or something? He's dead! Who cares?!

[Yuppie Grinder]

You know fuck you guys I like Lenin statues. And they symbolize a lot more than the Eastern bloc regimes.

Yea they represent one of the greatest men of modern times, more than worthy of our respect.
Not to sound like a hero worshiper.

[Questionable]

What are you superstitious or something? He's dead! Who cares?!

I kind of feel this way as well. Although a mausoleum seems like overkill, I can understand something like Engels having a huge monument at his grave. The men are dead, but their bodies are symbolic. If preserving Lenin's body could possibly serve to increase proletarian morale, I don't really see the harm in it. Or as Philip K. Dick once said:

"The living should never be used to serve the purposes of the dead, but the dead should, if possible, serve the purposes of the living."

[Igor]

making a mummy of lenin was kinda dick move though, because cremating him wouldn't only have been "for the purposes of the dead", his family wanted to cremate him and instead making a showcase out of his body was pretty distasteful for the family.

i don't really have any strong opinions though what we should do with the body now, but if they're getting rid of it they should give me a notice well ahead because i've always kinda wanted to see lenin because the whole thing is really so bizarre i'd actually be disappointed to see it go away

[Arlekino]

I agree but many Mongolians probably don't.
Well I remember in my city when Lenin come down, we went to see the show. People cheering up down with Lenin down with Russia out Russians. You know I wish him back Lenin Statue at least we can put flowers when couples get married.

[l'Enfermé]

His body wasn't desecrated in such an obscene fashion to "increase proletarian morale" though, he was mummified and placed on public display in order to influence peasant patrimonialism in favor of the ruling bureaucracy(peasant patrimonialism, by the way, is basically where the monstrous personality cults of political leaders like Lenin, Stalin and Mao come from - the much more moderate, far less obscene(godammit I wrote "obscene 3 times in this thread now!) and far more healthy personality cults of German socialists like Bebel and Lassale were proletarian in nature though).

[Prometeo liberado]

I kind of feel this way as well. Although a mausoleum seems like overkill, I can understand something like Engels having a huge monument at his grave. The men are dead, but their bodies are symbolic. If preserving Lenin's body could possibly serve to increase proletarian morale, I don't really see the harm in it. Or as Philip K. Dick once said:

"The living should never be used to serve the purposes of the dead, but the dead should, if possible, serve the purposes of the living."

Given what you just posted here why are we(by this I mean everyone on this thread) applauding the destruction of the Lenin statues? Either we have let the bourgeoisie further color our history, yet again, or we have grown lazy in our analysis. Shit it's just a statue but do we have to celebrate? Mongolia was by no means a Police State as they would have you think. In fact it was one of the last to shed a socialist economy. I doubt the average citizen suffered the way many think they had.

[Geiseric]

Cults of personalities are always bad. I say take down every statue, of anybody. Especially imperialists, and spanish colonizers, there's tons of those in San Fransisco.

[Questionable]

His body wasn't desecrated in such an obscene fashion to "increase proletarian morale" though, he was mummified and placed on public display in order to influence peasant patrimonialism in favor of the ruling bureaucracy(peasant patrimonialism, by the way, is basically where the monstrous personality cults of political leaders like Lenin, Stalin and Mao come from - the much more moderate, far less obscene(godammit I wrote "obscene 3 times in this thread now!) and far more healthy personality cults of German socialists like Bebel and Lassale were proletarian in nature though).

Well naturally I disagree with the statement about the "ruling bureaucracy" but I do have a few things to say. Firstly, could you go into a bit more detail about the peasant patrimonialism thing? Were there any documents where Soviet leaders actually came out and said this was their goal? But to be honest, even if they were trying to win the peasants over, I'm still really not sure it bothers me if his corpse was used in that way. There are certainly much worse things you can do with it, and it was in a positive light. It was a political move but I think there was an actual respect for Lenin there.

[Questionable]

Given what you just posted here why are we(by this I mean everyone on this thread) applauding the destruction of the Lenin statues? Either we have let the bourgeoisie further color our history, yet again, or we have grown lazy in our analysis. Shit it's just a statue but do we have to celebrate? Mongolia was by no means a Police State as they would have you think. In fact it was one of the last to shed a socialist economy. I doubt the average citizen suffered the way many think they had.

Even if you believe that Leninism was more bad than good, the destruction of this statue is not an attack against some vague oppression, it is the bourgeoisie celebrating their victory over the ideals that the statue represents.

And you're absolutely right, Mongolia has gone to shit after what remained of the socialist economy was removed.

[Rafiq]

I didn't know Mongolia was so fucked up compared to east bloc, etc.

Was it really?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Questionable]

I didn't know Mongolia was so fucked up compared to east bloc, etc.

Was it really?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Are you referring to post-Soviet Mongolia being fucked up? If so, here's one article that talks about the issue:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2010/03/20103198331191605.html

[Red Commissar]

I don't think Mongolia experienced the same degree of repression that was seen in some of the other eastern bloc countries, though it had the isolation and economic performance that came to be associated with it.

Mongolia's association with the Soviet Union was an odd one tied to its independence from China and the domination of the madman Roman von Ungern-Sternberg. It was able to avoid reabsorption into China after seceding from it in the aftermath of the 1911 revolution, and for what ever reason the USSR went against annexing it as an SSR, like it did with Tannu Tuva (though that went directly into the RSFSR).

I think the removal of Lenin's statue is probably related to the new government dismantling its past and part of the bourgeois celebration of its "victory". Note the comment by the mayor chiding Lenin as a "murderer", so you see the state's intentions there. Frankly arguments of cult of personality aside, I don't agree with that assessment.

I think there's also the case to be made that Lenin is unknown to the populace. So they probably don't feel too strongly about Lenin either way, despite the BBC article's comment that school children were conditioned to worship Lenin. It's the same problem that has been observed with some of the pro-Soviet or pan-African governments in Africa that named streets, buildings, and other public works after figures from the Communist movement that in this day and age, much of the young generation have no clue who they are or the relevance to their lives much less the country's history.

Note that despite this, some figures of the previous government are still honored in Mongolia. Choibalsan, the leader of Mongolia from 1939 to 1952, who maintained close ties to the Soviet Union during Stalin's time, still has a city named after him (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choibalsan_(city)) and his statue still stands in front of the country's main university (http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4049/4631208240_1781a5a0c9_z.jpg), even though the country's party followed Khruschev's condemning of Stalin by condemning his errors as well.

Probably the most important to note is that the capital of Ulaanbaatar still bears the name that the communist government decided- it translates into "Red Hero" though I'm not sure if it was named after someone in particular. Still I'm not sure if there's a plan to change that city's name.

[Dire Helix]

I agree but many Mongolians probably don't.

Yeah, and if people over here are anything to go by, they probably also don`t like Jews, migrants, homosexuals and commies and use the word "internationalist" as slander. So what?


I wonder when they will take down that obscenity of a tomb which houses Lenin's remains in Moscow. The man deserves to be buried properly at least.

When complete fascists come to power here(and that`s only a matter of time), they`ll drag his body through the streets, then dump it somewhere and burn. That`s the closest thing you`ll get to a burial.



I didn't know Mongolia was so fucked up compared to east bloc, etc.

Was it really?

It wasn`t. Far from a socialist ideal, it was still exponentially better than modern Mongolia. Don`t listen to the pack of liberals in this thread.


Probably the most important to note is that the capital of Ulaanbaatar still bears the name that the communist government decided- it translates into "Red Hero" though I'm not sure if it was named after someone in particular. Still I'm not sure if there's a plan to change that city's name.
Most likely after Damdin Sukhbatar, one of the founders of Mongolian People`s Revolutionary Party.

[Rafiq]

Are you referring to post-Soviet Mongolia being fucked up? If so, here's one article that talks about the issue:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2010/03/20103198331191605.html

No, "Soviet" Mongolia.

[Grenzer]

They should get rid of Lenin's body, but not before I have a chance to go over and see it.

Personally I don't give much of a shit about statues of "Great Men". The Soviet Union made all kind of Lenin statues and published his works in the millions, yet in the end they still never understood his what his politics actually meant. It just became a symbol of Stalinism and the oh-so-famous leftist cult of personalities, so fuck that.

[Ostrinski]

Yeah, and if people over here are anything to go by, they probably also don`t like Jews, migrants, homosexuals and commies and use the word "internationalist" as slander. So what?This isn't a discussion about statues of jews, migrants, or homosexuals.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

we have to remember how different things were during the 20's, mummifying lennin's body in my opinion seemed a way of glorifying the new soviet man that he was considered to have exemplified, not turning HIM into a deity, rather turning flesh and blood man into something to be venerated as opposed to some immaterial ghost. does that make sense? the mindset was different back then, people need a face to rally around and adding an emotional attachment to the developer of a a revolutionary teaching would help assure that the masses would not stray from this ideal. making lennins body in a sense helped make his teachings immortal to the common people of the soviet union at that time. much of the broad masses were steeped in mysticism at that time as a remnant of tsarism

[Robocommie]

They should get rid of Lenin's body, but not before I have a chance to go over and see it.

Personally I don't give much of a shit about statues of "Great Men". The Soviet Union made all kind of Lenin statues and published his works in the millions, yet in the end they still never understood his what his politics actually meant. It just became a symbol of Stalinism and the oh-so-famous leftist cult of personalities, so fuck that.

You know it's remarkable, but your post spits on the idea of Great Men and then right after that, spits on the Soviet masses and paints them as a bunch of moronic sheep who never understood Lenin or Lenin's politics - like they were all just either brainwashed idiots or wholly apathetic peasants.

[Robocommie]

This is a consolidation of neo-liberalism. It is a negation of history, a blotting out and denouncing of revolution. By condemning Lenin and the entire Soviet period and associating it primarily with murder, repression and political extremism, it does very nicely to legitimize the current capitalist and neo-liberal regimes.

It helps to gloss over the fact that these same current regimes also have murder, repression and political extremism in spades, but generally don't actually do anything to build the country's means of production or raise the people's standards of living.

Of course, the real significance of this is going to be lost on a lot of left-wing communists, who are laboring under the notion that this is somehow going to make things better for socialist revolution by getting rid of all of those hated symbols of "fake" socialism.

[Sankara1983]

Mongolians should keep in mind that the alternative to Leninism in the early period of their independence was the unspeakable brutality of the ultra-reactionary Ungern Sternberg.

[GallowsBird]

Leftists shouldn't applaud this, even if they are against "personality cults" and the "great men" mentality; if they were removing this statue because they shared these views then yes you can celebrate, however, they don't and are just removing this statue of Lenin due to triumphalism by the capitalists.

It is the equivalent of an Anti-Zionist applauding some action by a Far-Right racist against someone who is a Jewish Zionist; yes they are the same enemy but whereas the Anti-Zionist is against the Zionist because they view Zionism as an imperialist, racist ideology; the Far-Rightist is only against the Zionist because he views the Jewish Zionist as part of an "inferior race". Ok, this example is a more extreme one than the destruction of a statue but my point is that context is important and too many people forget to consider the context in which an action is performed.

[hetz]

The statue itself doesn't really matter, it won't change anything, but I'm surprised by so much gloating over this.
It would be better for the statue to stay. Anyway I think removing statues that had been there many decades is kind of stupid.

[DasFapital]

You can still go out to the Fremont neighborhood in Seattle and see a good sized Lenin statue if that's any consolation.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Noooooooooooooooo!!!11!1!!1