British Student Unions

[Kez]

Next year, many of us will start university, and probably join our student union, with the motive to use it as a vehicle for the struggle, ie using it for propaganda, for helping the workers and so on and so forth, however, should our objective be to get in, work to top and use its channels of communication and its established position? or start a new student union from scratch since the student unions at the moment are full of liberals and rightwing (as in conservative with small c, not far-right).

what are your opinions?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Trust me, the National Union of Students is bullshit.

I started University last year thinking exactly the same as you do now. Ok, so they go on anti-War marches and make jokes about how stupid George Bush is and put them in posters everywhere, but what is that achieving?

The Union does nothing at all for the welfare of it's subjects: students. Yes, they marched about the top-up fee's not long ago, but that basically came up, slapped them in the face and insisted they protest.

Also, interestingly, for about a month or so I have been e-mailing the Union and receiving e-mail back from them regarding their strange refusal to sell The Morning Star in ANY University campus stores, halls of residence stores or Students' Union building stores. I am still yet to receive the answer why and considering they have e-mailed me about 10-12 times already without an actual answer, you can gather that there is some shitty elitist reason they won't distribute it.

The only reason I picked up my NUS card is because I wouldn't have been able to play football without it.

University, the Union and the mass student culture is filled with hidden, elite-maintaining practices. The only thing you have to look forward to is special student nights in bars and clubs. For the majority of the rest of the time, you will just be annoyed with it.

So basically, my answer to your post is that you cannot use the Union as a vehicle. It will not work as it will not comply.

[toastedmonkey]

Socialsmo o Muerte: you have confirmed my fears, i will porbbaly still join.

Should perhaps try to set up and establish an actual students union?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

My friend, it would be impossible.

The National Union of Students has managed to get the vast majority of students under it's wing and any breakaway union would not be received well and people would not join.

Why?

The NUS offers, as we know, a range of discounts on the things that the vast majority of students want. Alcohol, clothes, CD's and DVD's. These discounts and special nights out keep every student happy. They make them believe that, as students, they are not part of the status quo of scoiety and are "different" and "rebellious".

As it goes, the majority of students are nobs. They wear their duffle coats, scarfs and fake hangover looks and think they are a unique part of society because they are part of a rebellious group of society. Indeed, they are part of an elite-enforcing part of society, reinforcing the wealth-based society we live in.

[Kez]

yeah, we all know the NUS is toss at the moment, but the question was what do we do? I think its pretty obvious we should work ourselves up it and change it, instead of whinging about it and set up maxist cadres within it

[cubist]

i like the NUS

they gave me a Mug

as long as its free i can pretend to agree ;)

[apathy maybe]

Would that be anything like the Australian NUS? Except I don't think that the entry is free into the Aus NUS (or maybe it is just the campus unions that aren't free?) Either way I think it is compulsary.

[Kez]

its about £15 to join

however, what was my main point?

the point is that as marxist we should get into the leadership of the NUS. from here we can use the various channels to increase awareness of students, and increase their class consiousness. We must tie the youth with the workers, as they can be the most active comrades with tireless effort.

We should build cadres within the union for generations to come, like the Spanish Student Unions who mobilised millions

[ComradeRed]

im in the U$, but what is a student union?

[Kez]

its a union...for students...
fighting for the rights of students, a recent example in Britain is the show they put up against Tuition fees, at the moment theyre a bunch of pissheads

[Edward Norton]

I haven't even bothered with NUS membership!

I more or less agree with the sentiments of Socialismo o Muerte, the NUS does fuck all politically, other than some half hearted demo and some superficial poses in a pathetic attempt to look radical.

However I will probably join simply for the cheap booze, thats all it really has to offer.

[Kez]

fucks sake, te studeents were pivotal in the revolutionary struggles of spain in the late 80's and all som people are arseed about is cheap booze.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

YOu won't understand untill you've got there and been to a meeting.

All they are good for is cheap beer and sport. Both great things, however not what it is meant to be doing.

[Kez]

Muerto,

u'll find im a member and have not only attended meetings of NUS, but organised also...please dont patronise me and belittle yourself

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Then this confirms what I thought Kamo, you are indeed a counter fuck

[cubist]

to be honest the NUS can do fuck all if MR blair won't give in to 300,000 people protesting against war why the fuck will he listen to a bunch of students,

too many people do pointless courses which get them no where to warrant not having tuition fees,


personally

they should divide it in to public and private sectors, if you are training for a national requirement, doctor, nurse teacher etc it should be free


american studies, history, and other silly courses etc should be charged

it costs 150,000 pounds to put one student doctor through training and set them up with a secure career for life i thing they get a pretty could deal

[James]

how is history a silly course?

Its one of those classic studies that is very important to society.
American studies i'm not as greater fan of...

There are silly subjects though - "communication studies", "media" silly things which you don't need to go to a university for. Something you could have a on job training for. These shouldn't be funded in my opinion.

But i see why you wouldn't want it to be funded, because its not for national government...

However, i'm going to be doing a History and Politics degree in september, and after that i'm going to be going into a state school, and teach many children this subject.

So i should get funded for my year long teacher training course, but not the 3/4 years before that where i learn in great detail what i shall be teaching???

Thats bs.

[James]

one more thing on "silly subjects"

I, along with many, think a serious problem at the moment is that far too many are being encouraged to go to university.

There are people in my history class who really shouldn't be doing history, but are doing it at uni next year so they "can go to uni". These are of course the people who get teachers to write their Personal Statement for them, leave UCAS forms to the last minute, and choose which uni to go to, according to night life alone!

These people should get free extra education on a subject they will be able to benifit society with. Not free extra education to go somewhere for 3 years, get wasted, then get a job which is totally unrelated to history.

If they want to do history for 3 years for fun, they should pay for it.

[Kez]

The state should pay for every single course at university, whether its a "pomous" one like history or politics or a "silly" one like golf course managament.

I think we should drop the petit bourgeoise perspective, and encourage more people to go into university, so more people are higher edducated, so more people can gain higher paid jobs, so more people can pay more tax, so the state and expenditure can increase, to increase the quality of life for more.

For the struggle, this is better, as it increases the number of advanced workers, who are more aware of the establishment, and how it operates, and how bankrupt it is.

its frankly sickening that on a forum with che as its main symbol, people are suggesting people should pay to study at university. Che did medicine at uni, if it was free, then more people would have done medicine, and the quality of life would have been better for people in argentina.

cephas, what you are supporting is for greater power for the private sector, ie the capitalists, how the fuck can you justify this??? unbelievable...

As for ComradeRiley, i would like to know why i am a "counter fuck" whatever that means...maybe its because i particpate with the NUS, and dont dream about a communist island....christ...


James, i did my UCAS thing "at the last moment", and i would have chosen history because universities want history if your going to do politics, however, it bored me too much and the teachers are tosspots, and for me nightlife is the 2nd most important factor, after how employers view universities.

IF we want equality, we should always be fighting for equal opportunities, not saying some subjects should be free, others should be paid...i cant believe im talking to "socialists"

[cubist]

james, sorry history was a bad choice for me to use,

tavareeshkamo,

no i am saying that if the course is of a natoinal benifit it should be free,
asides how is asking for an extra xxxx pounds contribution to a couse which costs a hell of a lot more and sets the student up for life supporting capitalism.

you do a degree to get a better job to make more money to live a better life that is capitalising in itself, so please justify why not paying money and then making loads of cash is fair?

[Kez]

because every job brings benefit to society, as it increases quality.

also they pay tax anyway, so they do pay for it

[cubist]

so i should pay less taxes becuase i don't go to university then and won't get as higher paying job??


how does taking a course like american studies benifit my british society,
how does being a capitalist pig benifit the homeless in my society,
how does studying theology and becomeing a priest help my society,

its a matter of equality yeah well if the governemnt have to put taxes up to accomodate not having tuition fees will you be satisfied then?? will you be satisfied if other important public sectors have costs cuts to accomodate the lack of tuition fees,

30 med students cost 150,000 each so thats 4.5 million and thats one uni, how are they supposed to fund this? with out costing someone something somewhere

[James]

Kamo,
you may have done your UCAS thing "at the last moment", but i trust that you didn't get your teachers to write it for you?

You would have chosen history because universities want history if your going to do politics; you wouldn't have done history simply because you wanted to go and get wasted for 3/4 years at some uni.


"nightlife is the 2nd most important factor, after how employers view universities."

Well we have different priorities.
for me...
no.1 how good the uni fares in the uni tables in each of the two subjects i'm taking, and where they come overall
no.2 was how close they are to home, if they are in a city, etc
no. 3 was grades required
no. 4 was facilities, gyme stuff etc
no. 5 was night life


If you are going off how the capitalists view it, and how much drink you can get; before how decent the course is etc, maybe you are one of those who should have left school at 16 and got an apprentice scheme or something...

[James]

"30 med students cost 150,000 each so thats 4.5 million and thats one uni, how are they supposed to fund this? with out costing someone something somewhere "

Following on from this excellent point which i totally agree with;

Look through the UCAS list of courses - and ask yourself how many of those really need to be done at uni?
Some could be learnt on the job
Some need only a little training
Some need just a college course
Some just need to be read in a book!

I'm not against these courses - if people want to do this then fine, but in the real world this costs alot of money.
What we need, should be given priority.
If we can't afford to send nurses through free of charge, we need to deduct it from somewhere else.

[cubist]

james, I completely agree.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I left school at 16 and got an apprentaship! It was cool, I was in the payroll department for ECN (Essex County Newspapers)

[cubist]

i am waiting another year till i go to uni then ican do the mature student thing and go and do sociology and crimonolgy and cultural redevelopement, i wish to do this as i wish to do social work and rehabilitation with young offenders,

i could go in sept and do a years foundation, or i could live a student life but go to work and not end up in debt as i am doing,

having fucked my a'levels up by making the most wrong decisions ever.

[BOZG]

I agree that all courses should be free as people should be encouraged to try and gain an understanding in every aspect of society, of human life and of the world we live in regardless of how silly it is. While I support the idea of completely free education, there also needs to be a huge overhaul of how subjects are thought and what's being actually thought and in what context it is though. I'll be the first person to attack schools today as almost a complete waste of time because 99% of what is thought is complete bullshit and is not thought in the right context or is completely manipulated and misthought but it still does not mean that we should not strive to learn as much as we can about anything and everything regardless of its direct importance to society.

I do agree with James that many of the subjects and courses available in universities do not have to be thought in universaties and could be thought on-job etc which is why the entire education system is in need of an overhaul.

[Kez]

cephas 1,
"so i should pay less taxes becuase i don't go to university then and won't get as higher paying job??"
-no because the university student is going to benefit society more if he/she goes to university, therefore in long run its better you support him/her regardless if u go to uni

"how does taking a course like american studies benifit my british society"
- we live in global world, hence other nations do have an impact on other countries....im genuinly worried a "socialist" has asked me this...
"how does being a capitalist pig benifit the homeless in my society"
-the reason why we are aboloshing capitalism...
"how does studying theology and becomeing a priest help my society"
-most people who do theology dont become priests...

"its a matter of equality yeah well if the governemnt have to put taxes up to accomodate not having tuition fees will you be satisfied then?? will you be satisfied if other important public sectors have costs cuts to accomodate the lack of tuition fees"
-costs such as defence can be dropped
-We wouldnt subsidise failing business, instead we would take on the main means of production..
-As state controls factories, more revenue is automatically gained

"30 med students cost 150,000 each so thats 4.5 million and thats one uni, how are they supposed to fund this? with out costing someone something somewhere"
-yes, better we have less doctors, and them being shit, this would be good for society, and of course for the budget more importantly...

james 1,
"You would have chosen history because universities want history if your going to do politics; you wouldn't have done history simply because you wanted to go and get wasted for 3/4 years at some uni."
-yeah, i dont give a shit about history, the uni wants it, therefore im more or less forced to do it...

since when was it only capitalists who got drunk? im going university, a) to get away from home, b) getting laid c) political side d) eduaction

james 2,
who pays for tuition at colleges? why should a student pay to learn about mechanics at a uni? just because its not a "proper" job as silly little petit bourgeoise children may see, it doesnt mean they should pay for it themselves.

you have a very bourgeoise outlook, why is it we must deduct from somewhere else? why cant we increase taxes or nationalise?

Robriley,
do you have a point or are you simply giving us an extract from your new memoirs book your releasing?

BOZG,
yeah, subjects are taught in such a bollox unobjective manner, its unnbelieveable the bollocks they try to ram down our mouths, fucking tossers, especially in business, history or politics, its a joke.

At the end of the day, we must support any type of exclusivity in society, were suposed to be bringing the barriers of inequality down, not fucking prop em up!

[James]

james 1,
"You would have chosen history because universities want history if your going to do politics; you wouldn't have done history simply because you wanted to go and get wasted for 3/4 years at some uni."
-yeah, i dont give a shit about history, the uni wants it, therefore im more or less forced to do it...

hmm, you missed my point.

My point was that it wasn't addressed at you. The origional comment was aimed at people who choose to do history, as a random subject, simply so that they can go to uni.
Kamo, chill for a moment and stop trying to take on the whole world...



since when was it only capitalists who got drunk? im going university, a) to get away from home, b) getting laid c) political side d) eduaction

I can only imagine that this is in reply to when i said;
"If you are going off how the capitalists view it, and how much drink you can get; before how decent the course is etc, maybe you are one of those who should have left school at 16 and got an apprentice scheme or something..."

Which was in reply to you making a choice firstly on how employers (or are these socialist employers now or something? Found a Robert Owen or something??) view the uni - then secondly; how well you can get pissed.

I wasn't implying that only capitalists get drunk - and quite frankly i don't see where you got this from.

Again, chill please. Read posts properly. The world isn't out to get you...


james 2,
who pays for tuition at colleges? why should a student pay to learn about mechanics at a uni? just because its not a "proper" job as silly little petit bourgeoise children may see, it doesnt mean they should pay for it themselves.

you have a very bourgeoise outlook, why is it we must deduct from somewhere else? why cant we increase taxes or nationalise?


Okay your taking what i said out of context.
I'll give you an example of what i'm trying to get across to you.

Building. Brick Laying. Etc etc

This you learn after School, at a college.
It takes 2/3 years and these college's get you sorted with an employer.

Same with cooks.

It should be the same with alot of these careers. Chefs, don't need to go to a university. They need to go to a specialist college after school, for free. Not get a degree in it, after doing some A-levels in subjects which don't really matter to what they are going to do.
Of course they could take this root if they wish, but this would obviously be on an independent choice.


The point is Kamo; funding is being stretched. With so many people at uni, of course it is going to be.

If all these people are going to benifit academically, then good - but they arn't.
Neither is our society.

Thus they should pay for it in their own time. I don't expect the state to fund my holidays - why should it pay for all these people's?

I can only guess that you don't know any of these people applying for uni, all i can say is that you are lucky. Its very annoying to know that you are going to be punished via taxes, so that these lazy people can go have a fun few years.

If thats me being a capitalist - so be it.

[cubist]

"so i should pay less taxes becuase i don't go to university then and won't get as higher paying job??"
-no because the university student is going to benefit society more if he/she goes to university, therefore in long run its better you support him/her regardless if u go to uni.

i agree but there are course which don't benifity society, becuase the students are free loaders who rate night life as a high importance,


"how does taking a course like american studies benifit my british society"
- we live in global world, hence other nations do have an impact on other countries....im genuinly worried a "socialist" has asked me this...

why are you worried?? i can study america i watch the news, i don't need a degree in it, please tell me the job that american studies alone will get you??


"how does being a capitalist pig benifit the homeless in my society"
-the reason why we are aboloshing capitalism...

no shit so going to uni to do a degree which makes you rich and doesn't cost you anything is good why??

[/QUOTE]"how does studying theology and becomeing a priest help my society"
-most people who do theology dont become priests...[/QUOTE]so what is the ebnifit to society??


"its a matter of equality yeah well if the governemnt have to put taxes up to accomodate not having tuition fees will you be satisfied then?? will you be satisfied if other important public sectors have costs cuts to accomodate the lack of tuition fees"
-costs such as defence can be dropped

-We wouldnt subsidise failing business, instead we would take on the main means of production..

-As state controls factories, more revenue is automatically gained

"we wouldn't subsidise" but socialists aren't incontrol of the capitalist economy we live in the government is, it would be easy to say just deprivatise all the factories but that isn't going to happen.

ok well you obviously don't understand current affairs, drop the defence budget, yes and how are they going to do that with the current threat internationally and nationally to the public of britain.

British Energy were bailed out bythe government with a £650,000,000 loan becuase of the issues with the new government agreed pricing structure for wholesale electricity, the sale price was 3 pound per MWh less that economically produuceable by a AGR nuclear reactor (standard british nuclear powerstation as oppossed to the more dangerous but more economic PWR used in france and america) that was aprivate company failing that the government saved.

state controlled factories i think you need to read up on margaret thatcher mate, this isn't theory here its practice mate she privatised most factories and primary production lines in the 80's and to think you are doing history!!


<cephas>"30 med students cost 150,000 each so thats 4.5 million and thats one uni, how are they supposed to fund this? with out costing someone something somewhere</cephas>"
<kamo>-yes, better we have less doctors, and them being shit, this would be good for society, and of course for the budget more importantly...</kamo>

i don&#39;t believe your knowlege of current affairs, or lack of. Doctors are valueably needed as are nurses, police and teachers my sister has just finished her Med degree and is a junior doctor working roughly 60 hour week sometimes doing a 12 hour shift and being the only doctor on 10 wards at night, pray tell me why it is better to have less doctors so freeloaders can do american studies?

i cant believe a socialist would rather go to uni and study a course for free which will effectively set him up for life and sacrafice desperately needed doctors and nurses.
rather than paying a small percentage of future earnings.

[cubist]

BOZG,


At the end of the day, we must support any type of exclusivity in society, were suposed to be bringing the barriers of inequality down, not fucking prop em up&#33;

we must no support exclusivity i pressume you mean

[B]oh my life, well lets bring barriers down then and stop putting taxes up for hard working middle/lower class people, so stupid ass courses which don&#39;t benifit the hard working middle/lower class people of society at all, can be taught for free in society.
and you want to bring equality in well how is taking valuably needed NUS doctors out becuase we can&#39;t train them due to too many silly courses being free, helping the barriers of equality?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Firstly, Kamo, I meant when you enter University life you will see that it is the truth.

Secondly, the idiot who said History is a silly subject is an absolute fool. You said that those studying for jobs like teaching, doctors etc. should be funded. Well I&#39;m doing History and after that hope to do teacher training and become a history teacher...You&#39;re sort of contradicting yourself because doing ANY course could then lead to teaching that course, so how do you separate courses? And somebody else said you only do history because it leads to something else....I don&#39;t think you should generalise. I am doing history because I love it.

When you talk about raising taxes to fund students, let us not forget that there wouldn&#39;t be a need to look for more revenue had the government not splashed out on pathetic things: Millenium Stadium, Olympic Bid....the list goes on. I&#39;m sure that goes without saying that we all know that anyway.

Unfortunately, the situation now means they do need to look for more revenue however. Raising taxes is the solution. But there also needs to be more funding for NHS and education. As far as tuition fees go, I agree to an extent that we should have to pay. Although it wouldn&#39;t be ideally, studying for a degree is an extraordinary thing. Recieving quality health care and getting a good education are not and they should be funded before any university funding. Of course, I&#39;m not justifying the new top-up fees. But I do think paying for tuition is acceptable, though less than we do pay now. For instance, I am paying £1,125 for my first year, maybe something around £700 would be more acceptable.

Don;t get me wrong, I agree that degrees SHOULD be paid for, but government spending over the course of the last 200 years have meant that it will not be allowed that to happen in our lifetimes.

[Kez]

yeah, i meant we shouldnt support exclusivity, fucking keyboard

as for barrier, you put more money into the system, not take out courses which you deem "silly".

Muerto,
also living costs are a big factor in people not going to certain universities, or universities at all, the government should give grants also.

I dunno why you say it will take so long to get this revenue, has no one heard of a little thing called "socialism"? this means the power and money becomes concentrated in hands of workers, hence money is easily available, more than we could dream of under bourgeoise system

[Kez]

christ,

cephas,
you think watching bbc and some bullshit websites is equal to learning about american politics in university?
someone who thinks this doesnt even deserve a proper answer.

cephas,
piss off back to your middle class home, and worry about tax rises while your rolling your joint. Nuts like you have never understood any revolutionary perspective, and believe simple slogans will fix everything.

Try adding a bit of science to your posts, rather than your eloquent posts of "freeloader students".

fucks sake

As revolutionaries,

we should, support the interests of all workers in the short term, and fight for changes and reforms in our favour
we should also in the long term explain that these reforms are merely temporary, and can only be cemented in a socialist society.

Stop crying about taxing of the middle class and get out and see how hard the working class works, and how fucking shit lives they live. Unfortunately they cant afford your weed to "mellow out maaaaan"

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

If Britain turned Sociliast, it wouldn&#39;t instantly make money available.

The transition from a capitalist to a socialist country would be just as slow and painful as the transitions from socialist back to capitalist that we have seen.

If Britain turned Socialist I&#39;d also eat my foot.

As for cephas, I&#39;m probably in agreeance with Kamo. Also, nobody gives a toss about your life plans mate,


" i am waiting another year till i go to uni then ican do the mature student thing and go and do sociology and crimonolgy and cultural redevelopement, i wish to do this as i wish to do social work and rehabilitation with young offenders,

i could go in sept and do a years foundation, or i could live a student life but go to work and not end up in debt as i am doing,

having fucked my a&#39;levels up by making the most wrong decisions ever.

Great. Go write an autobiography or something. I&#39;m sure the capitalist publishers will love your rags to riches story. Note: Sarcasm


Kamo, as for living costs, you are of course correct. I was just talking about tuition because I think that needs to be dealt with first. Then we come to the living. Well for a start, charging TV License fee&#39;s for each TV in a flat should be abolished. In my flat, 6 of us have tv&#39;s in our rooms and there is one in the living space. And we need to pay for & tv licences. Farcical. The living costs are ridiculous. When you read the contracts, the private side of Universities comes shining through. I&#39;m afraid I can think of no solution which will solve the two costs, living and tuition, for the near future. But I am a reformist socialist, maybe you, as a revolutionary socialist, can conjure something up&#33;

For now we have to put up with it.

[cubist]

muerte,

i apologiesed to james for that one earlier, i am prejudice about it as my uncle wasted his life after doing a history degree,

Kamo,

as a revolutionary maybe, but you not a revolutionary youre a student in a capitalist soceity with a socialists thinking, maybe one day you will be a revolutionary,

look sorry if i am pissing you off here but before you understand government you must surely understand economics, we won&#39;t introduce communism over night and remove the currency will we, it will be a slow and worked out route.

no if you would like to address my points about doctors and british energy etc i will do some science

[cubist]

meurte

i am glad no one gives a toss,

thankyou for making such wonderful accurate assumptions about me and my life,

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Kamo it was in reply to James&#39;s post.

[cubist]

kamo,

allthough i find your lack of understanding for political affairs in britain as it stands selfish please don&#39;t think i am against free education i am not but you can&#39;t demand such a high request of of an allready strict government budget.

“Doctors&#39; leaders have warned that the government has badly under-estimated how many extra GPs are required to implement proposed NHS reforms.
They have calculated that an extra 10,000 GPs are needed in the health service in England and Wales - an increase of almost a third on existing numbers. “ taken from the BBC site

so at £150,000 per doctor X 10,000 required for GP doctors alone is a grand total of £1,500,000,000 and this is to come out of UK tax payers money, to provide all members of british society with free healthcare,


you could cut the military budget but Mr Blair isn&#39;t going to do that he deams the terrorist threat too high,

you could deprivatise the commericial world but that is not an overnight option it owuld take years hard grafted work,

you could cut the amount of doctors being trained as you said but hopefully the above doctors statement will explain why that is such a silly idea,

you see the way it is is tuition fees are going to come in higher, and it would be better to allow the nationally required courses to be free to encourage people to do them, ideally we shouldn&#39;t restrict anyone from free education but we live in capitalism and it is not ideal, so we must adapt to the policies and give in to some aspects.

we are socialists in a capitalist world allthough the world will eventually adapt to us, in the mean time we must take the best capitalist route to attain the most socialist outcome,

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I agreed with everything you said up untill the last bit.

Yes, a change would take years, like I have said. And the transition would be difficult and very long. However I don&#39;t think we should, "take the best capitalist route to attain the most socialist outcome".

There is no capitalist route to Socialism. Only a Socialist route.

[cubist]

ok fair point,

[Kez]

cephas,

here lies the difference, your a commentator on the sidelines of the struggle, whereas i am at the beginning of a revolutionary career, so please dont tell me what the fuck i am or what the fuck i am not.

As for your comments on Energy and whatnot, the point is we should nationalise these industries (not "deprivatise" what the fuck?). The bailing out of such a company is the perfect example of why capitalism doesnt work, and how workers hard paid taxes are being used to prop up a decaying capitalism

"you could cut the military budget but Mr Blair isn&#39;t going to do that he deams the terrorist threat too high"
-again you show your petit bourgeois colours, THATS EXACTLY THE FUCKING REASON WEVE GOT TO GET RID OF BLAIR&#33; its no good fighting for weaker goals coz theyre easier. Blair is an obstacle for our goal, one that will be removed

muerto,
what i am suggesting is that we must work for workers and students in every way possible, to say we should support reforms (eg the abolition of student loans) is a capitalist route, is i believe, an ultra-left statement. Our first priority is for the welfare and liberation of the workers. Therefore we should use all available means to do so. That is not to suggest we should sacrifice our main goal of destroying capitalism, hell no. That is why at the same time as pushing for these reforms, we should be pointing out that the problem is not todays politicians, media et al, but the system which will continually produce them. I dont think you are in disagreement with me, maybe my wording wasnt as clear as it should have been.

[cubist]

i won&#39;t tell you what you are if you don&#39;t tell me what i am AOK,

I agree blair is an obsticle but you can&#39;t just "remove" him, what you going to put there, conservatives? the liberel dickheads? Green pistakers? they will all have to do what blair is doing,

you still haven&#39;t justified lowering the amount of doctors&#33;

deprivatise sorry nationalise that was the word i was trying to think of, yes i agree but the government isn&#39;t going to do it, i worked for british energy last year and studied the information given to me the only way the government will renation

you certainly have a revolutionary mind and think wonderfully but you seem to miss something, you must wait until capitalism fails before people like yourself can move in, in the meantime what do you propose, how do you plan on coping with the failing capitalist economy which is putting our taxes up and slowly putting fees up for everything.

seeing as the revolution hasn&#39;t began yet how can you attain your target.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by cephas+Dec 29 2003, 03:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cephas @ Dec 29 2003, 03:38 PM)you not a revolutionary youre a student in a capitalist soceity with a socialists thinking[/b]
First of all, who the fuck are you to say whether he is a revolutionary or not?
What qualaties must he hold before you allow people to call him that?


[email protected] 29 2003, 08:49 PM
you must wait until capitalism fails before people like yourself can move in, in the meantime what do you propose, how do you plan on coping with the failing capitalist economy which is putting our taxes up and slowly putting fees up for everything.

seeing as the revolution hasn&#39;t began yet how can you attain your target

Your missing the point here. Capitalism is failing.
This is one of the many reasons why we must become active in the students unions, to help bring round the revolution.

[Reuben]

good question about the sudents union.

I seem to remember some years back it got payed by bacardi not to stock havana club in its bars (havana club being the cuban national beer.. and they complied.

but back to the question the students union may not be an institution which can be turned around and it is mistaken, from a marxist perspective, to see it in the same light as other (ie trade) unions. Whereas workers have an objective interest in social progress students who are in amny cases peripheral to the labour market and who are still drawn predominantly from the middle classes do not. Of course i am not sayihng that middle class students cannot be radical (yes i am planning to become a student from a idle class background) but that there is no particular reason to suppose that bodies set up for the protection of students interests will be the arenas in which capitalism will generate the demand for socialist change.

I am sure that somebody will throw th 1960s at me, when many campuses did indeed become hotbeds of radicalism, but one ust only go back a few decades before that to 1920s Italy to see students very well represented in the fascist movement as agents of violent reaction.

on the issue of students paying - my own feeling is that going university does bring benefit to society as a whole (therefore justifying state contributions to education) yet it also generates benefit which is specific to the individual ie higher wages and thus there is a basis for students making some contribution possibly through a &#39;graduate tax&#39; so that people were not stopped from attending university on account of their backgrounds. This is of course until we attain socialism:)

[James]

Surely if we cut the defence budget over night we would be foolish?

There are people and countries who would still want to "hurt us".

I think this idea is rather dogmatic...

[cubist]

toasted i am aware it is failing but you can&#39;t bring round social reform now, its not going to work, society wouldn&#39;t allow.

toasted again becoming active is great, but cutting doctors for the sake of free course for students doing courses that have no direct national benifit, is not a sensible idea,

there are two things being discussed i think wires have been crossed, kamos options with student unions etc i don&#39;t disagree, its his comments about instantly cutting, defense budget and cutting the amount of doctors i am questioning, so if you would care to read all of the thread toasted.

James,

precisely

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Does anyone know where I can get hold of some Havana Club? I live in Cyprus btw.

Wonder how it compares to other beers.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Havana Club beer? I always thought it was white rum. Ah well.

I am with cephas. Whoever is in power, budgets and spending cannot just be cut overnight. It will be a long drawn out process to abolish fees, just as it would to create a socialist order. However, the Student Union will not play any major part I am afraid. It is down to other activists, possiblyo ther unions, for the simple fact that the National Union of Student&#39;s is only so by title; it does not act as a Union for it&#39;s subjects as it should do.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 10:37 PM
"30 med students cost 150,000 each so thats 4.5 million and thats one uni, how are they supposed to fund this? with out costing someone something somewhere"
-yes, better we have less doctors, and them being shit, this would be good for society, and of course for the budget more importantly...
Cephas: I have been following this thread closely, and just for you read it again.

I belive this is the comment you were refering to?
If so then i find it quite clear that Kamo is using sarcasm.

I did not say that social reform will take place over night, but i do think that when the time comes, which it will, the students union should be apart of it.

[cubist]

ok fair point didn&#39;t look at it like that,

however following the route of conversation no effort was made to explain the sarcasm by kamo so it does seem that it wasn&#39;t sarcastic.

i do not refute students are a vital tool in turning the cogs of the revolution but havig free courses that don&#39;t benifit nationally isn&#39;t good for the allready depleating economy.

so toasted do you think having freeloader pointless courses with no direct national benifit is good or not?? if yes how do you propose the government funds them. tax maybe? drastic overbnight removal of immoral defense systems, or are you a more rational realistic socialist? rather than an idealistic one like many on this board

[toastedmonkey]

The depleating economy is due to the failings of capitalism, be sure to note that students are currently paying for their education and the economy is in this state. So in no way can this be pushed on to the students (not that i think you are).


do you think having freeloader pointless courses with no direct national benifit is good or not??
Yes, but i dont think they are freeloaders, they are bettering themselves. A lot of people will be going to university because of the expectations and pressures of society. People attend university because it means they have a better "chance" in life once they obtain their degree. If the degree isnt related to the job they take they still receive a higher pay, and are 50% more unlikely to ever face unemployment. Not everyone has the opertuinty to go to university, and a lot of people are put off by the cost. If it were free people would not have to fear the cost, and people wouldnt view uni as something for the "posh". Society across all classes will benifit by being highly educated.


if yes how do you propose the government funds them. tax maybe? drastic overbnight removal of immoral defense systems, or are you a more rational realistic socialist? rather than an idealistic one like many on this board

Tax perhaps, but you dont tax the working class, you tax the companies that benifit from having students, afterall it is them who are making a profit out of it.
Cutting the "defence" budget, is a good idea. You do not defend your self by sending a few thousand women and men around the world to fight a "global" threat. We had no reason to be in iraq, but this has cost us millons of pounds if not billions. If we need an army, its sole purpose should be to protect the country, which i think means it doesnt need to leave the country, or be based abroad.
As for the "terroism defence systems", i question the point, i understand training the police, fire and ambulance services to respond, but it doesnt matter how many of them we have or how big our army is, if the events of 9/11 (2001 version) occoured in the uk, theres nothing an extra million service women and men could do.

(no hard feelings comrade?)

[Kez]

hmm, after the new year break, the squabbling continues.

fucks sake, get rid of the petit bourgeoise outlook for one minute guys, fucks sake, and we call ourselves marxists?

you dont wait for the falling of capitalism and then become a revolutionary, as it wont fall, it is up to us to overthrow the system, not to jump in at the last moment, only a coward would do that.

toasted is spot on, on how capitlaism is failing, and how we must use unions for good of rev.

James, as for opposing cutting the budget, if a british socialist workers state were to be established, Troops in Middle east would be pulledd out, why would we be target anymore? If anything we would smash terrorism by showing Arab workers the pwoer of the workers instead of fundamentalist nuts, particularly states like Iran.

Cephas,
i was being sarcastic for fucks sake,

your suggesting that you cant have it all, but the whole point of socialism is that the power and resources are concentrated in hands of workers, therefore resources become plentiful, easily accomplishing what we need

also, dont use the term "freeloader courses" it just shows u up for the silly little shit you are

Muerto,
your prophetic words of Student Union not playing a role, are based on no evidence what so ever, it is counter productive to make such statements, so why do it?

Look, you can have a green wine bottle and say "this will be no use for revolution", but if u make it a molotov, is it still going to "not play a role in revo"?

[Hate Is Art]

everyone stop trying to pass the buck, if we all keep on saying the revolution will never come it never will. We can sit here and do nothing but complain about Capitilsm or we could join student unions and spread communist propoganda about and use poster flyers etc etc anyway of highlighting the cause.

Think of it like this, the students will late be the workers and if we can convince the students of the marxist way and that capitilsm if screwing them and everyone over then eventually they won&#39;t stand being used by the capitilists, so don&#39;t say that student unions are useless.

we are own future.

[cubist]

toasted AOK by me buddy ;)

Kez sarcasm ey well it goes will with out a voice tone behind it sorry for the confusion but it was fun