Any leftist entrepreneur here?

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

It may sound contradictive, but yes, i own a business.

I'm (besides my regular job) a webdesigner and entrepreneur.
I have no employee's nor do i want to grow so i need them.

Are there any businessmen/-women at revleft, besides me?


ps. please don't hate me (Marx described the small businessman as a new asset to the proletariat)

[The Jay]

Why would I hate you? I plan on starting a workers' cooperative eventually, so I will technically own a business. It wouldn't be a capitalist enterprise though, neither is yours.

[Rocky Rococo]

Sometimes as a small business runs into a ditch and the owner is of a certain age, the owner will more or less empty out the office and head on to the door, only stopping to toss the key and the books to the last remaining person. I'd been there 25 years through the good times and the bad, when we had as many as 12 people, and then the bubble burst, and watching one after another good people had to be let go. And then there I was, that last remaining person. So now for the last two years I've been able to pay myself pretty much the same he was paying me, but at least I'm working and not having my 50whatever ass out of a job after being in one place half my life.

[Q]

Being a ZZP'er (For you English folks: An " independent without personnel", a Dutch legal construct) is really just a way to mold a workers job into the fantasy of being "middle class" (a wet dream of all neoliberals since Thatcher). Basically you work as a freelancer.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Ah...hence your custom title "Like a boss"?

At least i am no capitalist, for then i would have to have some capital...:(

[Regicollis]

I've toyed a little with the idea of starting a web design business if I'm unable to find a job. However the prospect of having to solicit customers is scaring me (I am - basically - a social phobic nerd). If such a business were to grow I would not employ people. I would rather organize the business as a cooperative.

I agree with the sentiment that the fabled "small business owners" are at the bottom of the food chain in the bourgeoisie. Often they are no better off than workers proper.

I don't have any suspicions about revolutionary socialists not being "pure" enough in their ideology if they own a business or work in management. They might be bourgeois but the bourgeoisie acts as a class, not as individuals. Class treason is possible for members of both classes and we should welcome those who betray the bourgeoisie.

[Q]

Ah...hence your custom title "Like a boss"?

Why yes dear sir:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqF,!n8E-)mwlqB,BPtEcT5Eog~~60_35.JPG

[Positivist]

Why would I hate you? I plan on starting a workers' cooperative eventually, so I will technically own a business. It wouldn't be a capitalist enterprise though, neither is yours.

I will join this irrespective of what the business does.

[The Jay]

I will join this irrespective of what the business does.

Lol, well then I have some cool resources that I've compiled towards that purpose. Also, you may want to check out the United Steel Workers' website and their recent press release about their cooperation with Mondragon. Things are looking up.

[Thirsty Crow]

ps. please don't hate me (Marx described the small businessman as a new asset to the proletariat)
Oh boy :lol:

Why the hell would anyone hate a self-employed user here? Though, I've seen weird shit so I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

[Positivist]

Yea there's nothing bourgiose about self-employment, your closer to a peasant.

[The Jay]

Yea there's nothing bourgiose about self-employment, your closer to a peasant.

I would not say peasant, since there is no lord that appropriates your surplus. It would be closer to an ancient class since you produce for subsistence and sell the rest.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Handicrafts/artisan.

[doesn't even make sense]

I agree with the sentiment that the fabled "small business owners" are at the bottom of the food chain in the bourgeoisie. Often they are no better off than workers proper.

They are still pricks though. It is a reactionary populist fantasy that they are any more sympathetic to the interests of workers. All of the worst bosses I've known have been small business owners.

[Positivist]

I would not say peasant, since there is no lord that appropriates your surplus. It would be closer to an ancient class since you produce for subsistence and sell the rest.

I thought the appropriation of surplus was with the serfs, and then the peasants were freed serfs.

[l'Enfermé]

Peasants are simply rural populations that making a living through agriculture. They predate feudal and even slave society.

And Q, you filthy, filthy liar! :cursing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c

[Yuppie Grinder]

Why would I hate you? I plan on starting a workers' cooperative eventually, so I will technically own a business. It wouldn't be a capitalist enterprise though, neither is yours.

Yes it is capitalistic. The petite-bourgeoisie own a private means of economic production without living solely off the toiling of labor. OP is petite-bourgeois, not hating on him, jux sayin.
I'd say the continuation of capitalism is in the best interest of the petite-bourgeoisie. People don't normally make a distinction between the petite-bourgeoisie and the professional class for some reason, but I think some professionals such as engineers, scientists, educators, and medical doctors can have genuine revolutionary potential since if anything there contributions to society would be MORE appreciated under a proletarian dictatorship.

[Yuppie Grinder]

ps. please don't hate me (Marx described the small businessman as a new asset to the proletariat)

Where?

[The Jay]

Yes it is capitalistic. The petite-bourgeoisie own a private means of economic production without living solely off the toiling of labor. OP is petite-bourgeois, not hating on him, jux sayin.
I'd say the continuation of capitalism is in the best interest of the petite-bourgeoisie. People don't normally make a distinction between the petite-bourgeoisie and the professional class for some reason, but I think some professionals such as engineers, scientists, educators, and medical doctors can have genuine revolutionary potential since if anything there contributions to society would be MORE appreciated under a proletarian dictatorship.

Okay then, where would the capitalist relation of surplus exploitation through wage-labor be in an enterprise of one?

[Let's Get Free]

Yes it is capitalistic. The petite-bourgeoisie own a private means of economic production without living solely off the toiling of labor. OP is petite-bourgeois, not hating on him, jux sayin.
I'd say the continuation of capitalism is in the best interest of the petite-bourgeoisie.

I'd suggest that your self-employed trader or shopkeeper is part of the working class, as they do not possess enough capital to live on without the economic compulsion to work. Of course, it is quite true that they don't actually sell their labor power to an employer but then neither do the self employed generally and you wouldn't want to say your local electrician or plumber, say, is not a worker, would you?

Let's look at the fate of the self employed small business owner under capitalism. They exist in an incredibly competitive climate. In fact 80% of all new businesses fail within 5 years. Frequently, the self-employed small business owner is at the mercy of larger capitalists. Many are but adjuncts to larger firms that own or control the "chains" of retail outlets, restaurants, real estates offices, etc. And the self employed small business owner or petty bourgeois, whatever you want to call them, are left with, at best, a small share of the surplus value contained in the commodities they sell, after they pay their suppliers, bank and other creditors, landlords, and the political state.

[Lynx]

Freelancer, independent contractor, soldier of fortune - why be an ordinary working class schmuck when you can BYOB and have the Harlequin Romance version?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

You could say that however I'm not keen on moralizing various vocations (within reason). We all, currently live under capital and thus we, the proletariat, are expected to survive, scrap, claw, etc. to get our money. So, that's what I do, fight tooth and nail for every dime.

[Prometeo liberado]

I own a factory that produces hot water from ice cubes. Not making any money as of yet but I know it's coming.

Used to own a service that provided workers who would go to your farm and take your blind chickens out to poop. Overhead killed me.

[#FF0000]

"Small business owners" aren't necessarily less bad than "big business".

That said I'm learning screenprinting. I might set up a thing in my basement or something and sell a couple shirts to supplement my wages.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I remember once my friend and I took mushrooms and had, like, a two hour brainstorming session about becoming entrepeneurs (this was when I was drifting between being unemployed and doing minimum-wage jobs). Because, as I was told throughout the night, "we're too smart for this stupid shit, man." We talked about it for a pretty long time, but at the end all we could think to do was become drug dealers. Pretty unoriginal and a real cop-out way to become an entrepeneur, IMO.

My job now is sort of like being an enterepeur, though, as I pretty much set my own hours.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I own a factory that produces hot water from ice cubes. Not making any money as of yet but I know it's coming.

Used to own a service that provided workers who would go to your farm and take your blind chickens out to poop. Overhead killed me.

You should liquidate so I can divorce you and get some loot. ;)

[Prometeo liberado]

You should liquidate so I can divorce you and get some loot. ;)

Spiderwoman.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Where?

I don't precisely know in which chapter, but it is near the end of Marx's Wage Labour and Capital.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Besides, i think it was Marx who identified the capitalist as a person making money out of previously aquired capital. As i am a webdesigner making money from scratch, you can't really call me a capitalist, can you?

[Lynx]

Besides, i think it was Marx who identified the capitalist as a person making money out of previously aquired capital. As i am a webdesigner making money from scratch, you can't really call me a capitalist, can you?
Making money from scratch makes you a scratchalist.

[#FF0000]

Besides, i think it was Marx who identified the capitalist as a person making money out of previously aquired capital. As i am a webdesigner making money from scratch, you can't really call me a capitalist, can you?

You're really, really stretching here.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yes it is capitalistic. The petite-bourgeoisie own a private means of economic production without living solely off the toiling of labor.
What is crucial here is that the petite bourgeoisie employ wage labour. OP does no such thing and can't be meaningfully called petite bourgeois, even more so if you take into account that freelancing, self-employment has become a means to achive the goal of diminishing labour costs for capitalists (instead of hiring a wage worker with all of the benefits which the employer is legally obliged to fulfil).

The devil is in the capital-wage labour relationship, which is manifest in the immediate conditions and relations between the bosses and the workers.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I'd suggest that your self-employed trader or shopkeeper is part of the working class, as they do not possess enough capital to live on without the economic compulsion to work. Of course, it is quite true that they don't actually sell their labor power to an employer but then neither do the self employed generally and you wouldn't want to say your local electrician or plumber, say, is not a worker, would you?

Let's look at the fate of the self employed small business owner under capitalism. They exist in an incredibly competitive climate. In fact 80% of all new businesses fail within 5 years. Frequently, the self-employed small business owner is at the mercy of larger capitalists. Many are but adjuncts to larger firms that own or control the "chains" of retail outlets, restaurants, real estates offices, etc. And the self employed small business owner or petty bourgeois, whatever you want to call them, are left with, at best, a small share of the surplus value contained in the commodities they sell, after they pay their suppliers, bank and other creditors, landlords, and the political state.
They are members of A working class, but they are not proletarians. There is a difference between independent workmen and a businessman with no employees. He owns a private means of economic production, and is therefore not proletarian.

[Yuppie Grinder]

What is crucial here is that the petite bourgeoisie employ wage labour. OP does no such thing and can't be meaningfully called petite bourgeois, even more so if you take into account that freelancing, self-employment has become a means to achive the goal of diminishing labour costs for capitalists (instead of hiring a wage worker with all of the benefits which the employer is legally obliged to fulfil).

The devil is in the capital-wage labour relationship, which is manifest in the immediate conditions and relations between the bosses and the workers.

the definition of petite-bourgeoisie given by Marx is a bourgeois who owns a private mean of economic production but does not live solely off the labor power of others. A petite-bourgeois can have employees, or in case of OP he can also not. He still has the same power relationship to property that a dude who owns a small cafe has.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Ah, found it!


In addition, the working class is also recruited from the higher strata of society; a mass of small business men and of people living upon the interest of their capitals is precipitated into the ranks of the working class, and they will have nothing else to do than to stretch out their arms alongside of the arms of the workers. Thus the forest of outstretched arms, begging for work, grows ever thicker, while the arms themselves grow every leaner.

It is evident that the small manufacturer cannot survive in a struggle in which the first condition of success is production upon an ever greater scale. It is evident that the small manufacturers and thereby increasing the number of candidates for the proletariat – all this requires no further elucidation.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There is the additional complication where bosses designate their workers as "self-employed" in order to offload the tax burden onto them, at least here in the UK.

[The Jay]

the definition of petite-bourgeoisie given by Marx is a bourgeois who owns a private mean of economic production but does not live solely off the labor power of others. A petite-bourgeois can have employees, or in case of OP he can also not. He still has the same power relationship to property that a dude who owns a small cafe has.

The point is who gets the surplus from whom, who owns property is of less importance. Without a worker-capitalist relationship there can be no capitalist.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Ah, found it!
Marx is talking about small businessmen being forced to proletarianize out of economic necessity due to thier businesses failure in the marketplace dominated by big capital.

[The Machine]

marxism isnt a moral code it doesnt really matter what class you personally fall into. i mean i would love to be a businessman or ceo or something and be rich as fuck but thats just me

[Yuppie Grinder]

marxism isnt a moral code it doesnt really matter what class you personally fall into. i mean i would love to be a businessman or ceo or something and be rich as fuck but thats just me

OK but people who have a vested interest in the perpetuation of capitalism generally speaking have no revolutionary potential and are interested in Marxism for reasons other than it being a way out of poverty, maybe because it gives them something to believe in or because it's edgey.
And why would you want to be a ceo when you can be hoodrich?

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Well, to sum up as far:

-Not a capitalist because i have no employee's
-Not a capitalist because i have no capital with which i make new capital
-Not a capitalist although i'm (partly) not proletariat
-A bit of a capitalist because i have a business and make money

Anywho...let's go back to the primary question:
Any other leftist entrepreneurs here?

[The Machine]

OK but people who have a vested interest in the perpetuation of capitalism generally speaking have no revolutionary potential and are interested in Marxism for reasons other than it being a way out of poverty, maybe because it gives them something to believe in or because it's edgey.
And why would you want to be a ceo when you can be hoodrich?

i dont know how much one guys revolutionary potential really matters in the grand scheme of things. frankly i think most of us became leftists because its edgy and something to believe in. its certainly not a viable way out of poverty in this economy.
being hoodrich would be cool for a couple months but id rather be disgustingly mitt romney bourgeois houses on top of houses boats on top of airplanes and dancing horses in the fucking olympics

[GPDP]

Alright, help me out on this one guys, because even to this day I can't make up my goddamn mind on what I actually am.

Basically, I live with and work with my parents. My father goes to auctions and buys computer equipment and miscellaneous electronics to either repair and sell for wholesale (if there's a market for the equipment) or sell for scrap (if there is little to no market). The entire venture is family operated, as we do not hire or employ anyone (the exception being that sometimes we hire someone to help us load or unload whatever we purchase if it's a ton of equipment, but it's not a common occurrence). The only permanent workers are ourselves, but I don't actually get paid since everything more or less goes toward supporting the household, although they throw me a bone from time to time. Basically, we are all buyers, manual laborers, technicians, and sellers all at once.

On the side, in order to obtain some kind of personal income, I work as a technician, fixing people's computers and from time to time selling individual computers on craigslist. Whatever income I get from this goes only toward myself, though obviously what I sell is taken from our stock of computers (we have a big warehouse full of them btw) with my parents' permission.

In a sense, we're petit-bourgeois, but since it's my father that actually heads the "business" and I more or less work for him, would that not make me the worker, despite the fact that I live with him? Then again, I do not draw a wage from working with him, so in a sense it's kinda slave labor, although I draw personal income from elsewhere.

[The Jay]

Hmm. It would seem to be a feudal class relation between your father and yourself. You can't be a slave since you can't be deeded as property but are more tied to the land (house). Keep in mind that people can be of a different class in different areas of life.

[GPDP]

Goddamn, I didn't even think of it being a lord and serf kind of relation, although again, I do work alongside him rather than for him.

I don't get too hung up on this btw. Only reason I'm in this situation is because I can't get an actual job just yet that doesn't involve working in subhuman conditions (and even then it would have to be under the table for certain reasons). And it's not like I'm being forced to do this by my parents. I am free to move out and do my own thing at any time once I actually have the means to do so. Hell, they're practically worrying themselves to death because I'm still around despite being 25.

[The Jay]

Goddamn, I didn't even think of it being a lord and serf kind of relation, although again, I do work alongside him rather than for him.

I don't get too hung up on this btw. Only reason I'm in this situation is because I can't get an actual job just yet that doesn't involve working in subhuman conditions (and even then it would have to be under the table for certain reasons). And it's not like I'm being forced to do this by my parents. I am free to move out and do my own thing at any time once I actually have the means to do so. Hell, they're practically worrying themselves to death because I'm still around despite being 25.

The simplest way to clarify this is through a simple question: who gets the surplus, how, and what can they do with it? If you can answer me that I can tell you what the class relationship is.

[GPDP]

The simplest way to clarify this is through a simple question: who gets the surplus, how, and what can they do with it? If you can answer me that I can tell you what the class relationship is.

Basically what happens is we get a client who wants a number of computers, so we go to our warehouse and together work on the computers to get them ready for the client. The client then pays us money, which goes into my parents' bank account. This means the surplus is appropriated by my parents, of course, but again, most of it goes toward paying for food, bills, utilities, mortgage, etc. Beyond that, whatever is left over can be used for their leisure as they wish, while I generally do not have access to it unless I'm allowed to. Sometimes I get paid a small share for my own use, though.

Of course, this means I do not directly help with expenses out of my own pocket, but rather because I help them with the business, it still means I am contributing, so I'm not just mooching off them or whatever. In fact, I am the one who does the hardest work, as my parents are getting on in years and can't work as much as they used to.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

After all is said and done...all that matters is, that dispite your family being self-employed, you are not capitalist.

You do not buy labour-power regularly (else we would all be capitalists, who doesn't pay for service in a restaurant evers now and then), nor do you make capital from previously acquired capital.
So...

And if you think commie, act commie and are prepared to live commie, does it really matter where you came from?

[#FF0000]

Basically what happens is we get a client who wants a number of computers, so we go to our warehouse and together work on the computers to get them ready for the client. The client then pays us money, which goes into my parents' bank account. This means the surplus is appropriated by my parents, of course, but again, most of it goes toward paying for food, bills, utilities, mortgage, etc. Beyond that, whatever is left over can be used for their leisure as they wish, while I generally do not have access to it unless I'm allowed to. Sometimes I get paid a small share for my own use, though.

Of course, this means I do not directly help with expenses out of my own pocket, but rather because I help them with the business, it still means I am contributing, so I'm not just mooching off them or whatever. In fact, I am the one who does the hardest work, as my parents are getting on in years and can't work as much as they used to.

The system my family has works/worked in a similar manner, except I'm employed. My paycheck, very often, goes into the bank because the household needs the money.

But I guess I'm giving it away. Necessity makes it so it needs to happen like this but they always ask and are hella uncomfortable with it even though I'm like "here is all of the fliff go hog wild" and pay for everyone's shit by default.

But either way I don't think it's all that important to figure out if you're "PETIT-BOURGEOIS" or not. I know folks who are technically "petit-bourgeois" but still identify strongly w/ the "working class" side of things.

[The Jay]

Basically what happens is we get a client who wants a number of computers, so we go to our warehouse and together work on the computers to get them ready for the client. The client then pays us money, which goes into my parents' bank account. This means the surplus is appropriated by my parents, of course, but again, most of it goes toward paying for food, bills, utilities, mortgage, etc. Beyond that, whatever is left over can be used for their leisure as they wish, while I generally do not have access to it unless I'm allowed to. Sometimes I get paid a small share for my own use, though.

Of course, this means I do not directly help with expenses out of my own pocket, but rather because I help them with the business, it still means I am contributing, so I'm not just mooching off them or whatever. In fact, I am the one who does the hardest work, as my parents are getting on in years and can't work as much as they used to.

You are a serf :)

[ed miliband]

The system my family has works/worked in a similar manner, except I'm employed. My paycheck, very often, goes into the bank because the household needs the money.

But I guess I'm giving it away. Necessity makes it so it needs to happen like this but they always ask and are hella uncomfortable with it even though I'm like "here is all of the fliff go hog wild" and pay for everyone's shit by default.

But either way I don't think it's all that important to figure out if you're "PETIT-BOURGEOIS" or not. I know folks who are technically "petit-bourgeois" but still identify strongly w/ the "working class" side of things.

i think the issue is tho, the "petit-bourgeois" cannot struggle in the same way the working class can; if there are ten small / family businesses selling bits and bobs in a town, and all are facing economic hardship, their response will not be to band together but to face each other in competition by lowering prices and so on.

so whilst there are no doubt members of the "petit-bourgeois" who identify with the working class (usually on a cultural level, which i think is some what questionable anyway) and who face similar issues to the working class, there's an important distinction between the two.

[Yuppie Grinder]

i dont know how much one guys revolutionary potential really matters in the grand scheme of things. frankly i think most of us became leftists because its edgy and something to believe in. its certainly not a viable way out of poverty in this economy.
being hoodrich would be cool for a couple months but id rather be disgustingly mitt romney bourgeois houses on top of houses boats on top of airplanes and dancing horses in the fucking olympics

if you are not vehemently opposed to dancing horses i don't think you were ever a revolutionary to begin with

[Os Cangaceiros]

I kind of agree with The Machine. I'd like to wear incredibly expensive pressed suits and snort coke off fine mahogany tables in some corporate boardroom. A corporate raider/white collar criminal, that'd be nice. A little insider trading, little stock manipulation, maybe a little drug money laundering...all combined with a massive sense of entitlement and an almost psychopathic narcissism. :thumbup1:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Also, any handwringing about "oh mae gawd what class am I in, am I a revolutionary subject guys?!" is pretty dumb*. As Martin Glabberman once said, the obsessive urge to categorize every single person into neat little boxes is a liberal trend, that's what they do with basing class on income brackets, ie. if you make this much, you're "poor"! If you make a little more, you're "middle class"! And if you make anything more than that, you're "rich"!


i think the issue is tho, the "petit-bourgeois" cannot struggle in the same way the working class can; if there are ten small / family businesses selling bits and bobs in a town, and all are facing economic hardship, their response will not be to band together but to face each other in competition by lowering prices and so on.

Certain segments of the "petite bourgeoisie" can go on strike. I should know, I've seen it happen.

*not necessarily saying that's what's happening in this thread, but it's definitely a relatively common occurence on this board.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

*not necessarily saying that's what's happening in this thread, but it's definitely a relatively common occurence on this board.


Sure did! We went off-topic bigtime!

[cynicles]

I didn't even bother reading this thread, if you're a capitalist or 'entrepreneur' then we have to burn you at the stake. I'm sorry but it's the only way to purify you.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

I didn't even bother reading this thread, if you're a capitalist or 'entrepreneur' then we have to burn you at the stake. I'm sorry but it's the only way to purify you.

Lol! (at least, i'm think you're kidding, right?)

But what has being a entrepreneur to do with not being able to be a communist?
I don't hire anyone, so i don't buy labour-power. So what is so pernicious about being me?
If the revolution is here, i'd be glad to drop the money-making thing and go commie! Doesn't that alone make me a leftist (if not a communist)?

[cynicles]

Yes, I'm kidding...unless you have a fetish for stake burning.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Yes, I'm kidding...unless you have a fetish for stake burning.


Hmmm.........neh

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Spiderwoman.

Give me a credit card and we can play nice.