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Zostrianos
12th October 2012, 03:37
Things are about to get very bad indeed, it seems they're all but outlawing homosexuality:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19881905

The Ukrainian parliament could give final approval next week to a bill that aims to outlaw "pro-homosexual propaganda" - any "positive depiction" of gay people, gay pride marches, or even the screening of a film like Brokeback Mountain.
Critics have described the legislation, which imposes indeterminate fines and up to five years in prison for repeat offenders, as a throwback to the Middle Ages, although it is only a couple of decades since homosexuality was a criminal offence here and in the rest of the USSR.
In some ways, Ukraine is an open and tolerant society. It was the first former Soviet republic to decriminalise homosexuality, in 1991. It has sprouted its own gay rights movement, and gay night clubs operate freely in central Kiev.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19881905#story_continues_2)
The new bill could be interpreted to outlaw public displays of single-sex affection, such as kissing and hand-holding”
But despite this, the bill - which sailed through its first reading last week - enjoys wide backing. All major political parties are united in support, and polls indicate that many Ukrainians support some restrictions on the rights of sexual minorities.
One of the legislation's incubators is the Christian Hope evangelical church in Kiev. Located in a nondescript five-story structure outside the city centre, Christian Hope provides a wide array of educational and charity services, and has established a network of some 150 churches throughout Ukraine. It has also helped collect thousands of signatures in support of three anti-gay bills put forward in parliament this year.
After a rousing service in the church's warehouse-like auditorium focusing on the agonies of sin and bliss of salvation, I meet the chief pastor, Valery Reshetinsky. For him, the fight against homosexuality is a matter of "national security" upon which the survival of the nation depends.
"Here's the issue," says Pastor Reshetinsky, a large-boned man with a slight moustache, tells me. "In a real democracy, my freedom and rights are limited by the freedom of someone else."
In his opinion, freedom of speech for sexual minorities is a violation of what he considers his inalienable right not to have to hear something he finds offensive.
"You can't do everything that you want to do, because there are people who have the exact same rights as you do," he insists.
The pastor goes on to accuse a worldwide conspiracy of Masons, New-Agers, postmodernists and financiers of various nationalities, of imposing ideas that are not "characteristic for Ukraine" on the nation's children.
The first reading of the bill last week unleashed a deluge of condemnation from human rights organisations, both inside and outside Ukraine, who have christened it a "gay gag law". The ban would be a gross violation of European and international conventions, they say, leading to further marginalisation of Ukraine's LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) community.

It could also damage efforts to stem Ukraine's already stratospheric HIV rate, if, for example, some anti-Aids information were to be prohibited.
It may be no coincidence that a number of gay activists have been attacked in recent months.
The first ever Gay Pride march planned in Kiev was called off at the last minute in May after threats of violence from far-right groups.
Immediately after a news conference announcing the decision, masked assailants kicked and jumped on Svyatoslav Sheremet, head of Gay Forum of Ukraine.
A month later, unknown muggers shouting "Faggot!" assaulted another of the parade organisers, Taras Karasiychuk, on the street as he was coming home at night.
International luminaries have weighed in. At a recent concert to mark the end of the Euro 2012 football championship - co-hosted by Ukraine - Elton John used his stage to denounce the attacks and the pending legislation.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63401000/jpg/_63401429_134033966.jpg
A Christian group wants to ban SpongeBob for perceived "promotion of homosexuality"
"I plead with you: Stop the violence against gay people," Sir Elton told a cheering crowd of some 100,000 on Kiev's central square.
Supporters of the bill, like Ruslan Kukharchuk, a founder of the local group Love Against Homosexuality, deny the accusation of intolerance. They say they too condemn the violence against homosexuals. What is more, they add, gays are free to do whatever they want "in the privacy of their room".
Kukharchuk, however, has also written about what he calls the "homo-dictatorship" which he claims dominates Western society and persecutes religious, anti-gay proponents like himself. He strives to counter "aggressive" gay propaganda, he says - in other words, public discourse that implies that homosexuality "is normal, is good, is part of democracy".
If passed, the bill would prevent anyone sending out a message that there is nothing wrong with being gay - whether in a newspaper editorial, a public speech or parade. This bill's authors have cited films like Brokeback Mountain as an example.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19881905#story_continues_4) “Start Quote
We need to be more visible in everyday life - we have to provoke this conversation”
Taras Karasiychuk, gay rights activist
Another film, Bruno, featuring Sacha Baron Cohen in the role of a gay Austrian fashion designer, was censored in Ukraine anyway. And a few weeks ago, the National Expert Commission for Protecting Public Morality said it would examine complaints from a Christian group about SpongeBob SquarePants and some Disney films.
The new bill could even be so interpreted as to outlaw any public display of single-sex affection, such as kissing and hand-holding, Kukharchuk says. "But it would be up to a court of law to decide if this was propaganda or not."
Despite the formidable pushback - and the threat of physical assault - LGBT activists are undaunted. Karasiychuk, who suffered a broken jaw and concussion in his attack, says gay people cannot retreat into the woodwork.
"We need to be more visible in everyday life. We have to provoke this conversation. Everyone has to ask themselves, why they don't like gays".

DasFapital
12th October 2012, 05:28
I am reminded of when Lenin said "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay"

Zostrianos
12th October 2012, 05:30
And what's sad is most of the population seems to support this. It's like Islamism in Pakistan, people want it:thumbdown:

Ostrinski
12th October 2012, 05:39
I am reminded of when Lenin said "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay"Lenin said that? When exactly did fascism become a thing?

atom
12th October 2012, 06:05
Unbelievible that things such as these still happen in this day and age. I hope the LGBT folks don't take this sitting down!

Tim Cornelis
12th October 2012, 07:35
I am reminded of when Lenin said "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay"

I hardly think Lenin was referring to anti-gay legislation. This is by no means fascism, and by no means is capitalism in Ukraine "in decay" (it has an annual economic growth of ca. four percent). People shouldn't use these phrases left and right but apply them in their proper context.

Igor
12th October 2012, 08:11
i hate how people use middle ages for shortcut for "bad things" even though this law would indeed be more like a throwback to just couple of decades back

Grenzer
12th October 2012, 10:23
Lenin said that? When exactly did fascism become a thing?

He never said that. For some reason it's on some internet websites, but they never actually cite it. Most people I've talked to said they have never read it anywhere either, and that like most Stalin quotations, it's fictional.

TheGodlessUtopian
12th October 2012, 11:31
The events from Russia spilling over into the Ukraine hardly surprise me as the two nations share similar social histories. Much like in Russia and Uganda the only way these draconian laws will be repealed is through a combination of grassroots activism and international pressure from global agencies (though this may serve to just aggrandize the situation more). Ultimately though once a nation has reached this point of Queerphobia the road to recovery is a long, painful one which must be waged by the genuinely progressive forces inherent in its home territory.

TheGodlessUtopian
12th October 2012, 11:36
Unbelievible that things such as these still happen in this day and age. I hope the LGBT folks don't take this sitting down!

Activism in such countries is extremely dangerous. While brave people still assert themselves, such as in Uganda where though being queer carries the death penalty but activists still are brave enough to hold a gay pride parade, the over all situation is hard to gauge; when physical assaults are common place and employment termination is almost guaranteed as a result of others finding out your non-heterosexuality, the progress of reversing such laws slows to a crawl.

I would assume that much like how in Russia there is a resistance this counter-force is nonetheless small and limited to minor street actions.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
14th October 2012, 12:11
I've always wanted to visit Ukraine (my great-grandfather was born there), but as a visibly trans person, I don't think that would be possible.

Quail
14th October 2012, 14:55
Sure I don't really need to make this post, but some stuff in the article caught my eye and put me into rage mode.


After a rousing service in the church's warehouse-like auditorium focusing on the agonies of sin and bliss of salvation, I meet the chief pastor, Valery Reshetinsky. For him, the fight against homosexuality is a matter of "national security" upon which the survival of the nation depends.
"Here's the issue," says Pastor Reshetinsky, a large-boned man with a slight moustache, tells me. "In a real democracy, my freedom and rights are limited by the freedom of someone else."
In his opinion, freedom of speech for sexual minorities is a violation of what he considers his inalienable right not to have to hear something he finds offensive.
This is absurd. His "right" to not be offended doesn't mean that he can take away the basic rights of other people. Besides, surely if he has the right not to be offended, LGBT people have that same right and he should shut the fuck up with his homophobic bullshit.


"You can't do everything that you want to do, because there are people who have the exact same rights as you do," he insists.
The pastor goes on to accuse a worldwide conspiracy of Masons, New-Agers, postmodernists and financiers of various nationalities, of imposing ideas that are not "characteristic for Ukraine" on the nation's children.
Interesting. So he's allowed to impose his ideas on the children of Ukraine, but nobody else's ideas are even allowed to be heard (although this particular paragraph gives the impression that he's some kind of conspiracy theorist).


Supporters of the bill, like Ruslan Kukharchuk, a founder of the local group Love Against Homosexuality, deny the accusation of intolerance. They say they too condemn the violence against homosexuals. What is more, they add, gays are free to do whatever they want "in the privacy of their room".
How is that fair, if homosexuals are forced to hide their affection until they're in the privacy of their room when heterosexuals can be as affectionate as they like wherever they are? I don't understand the mindset behind this kind of thinking. Why should LGBT people be happy and okay without the same rights that everyone else enjoys?

Also, how can you condemn violence against homosexuals while at the same time promoting the kind of intolerance that leads to violence against homosexuals. How fucking hypocritical.


Kukharchuk, however, has also written about what he calls the "homo-dictatorship" which he claims dominates Western society and persecutes religious, anti-gay proponents like himself. He strives to counter "aggressive" gay propaganda, he says - in other words, public discourse that implies that homosexuality "is normal, is good, is part of democracy".

This is the same ridiculous mindset of homophobes everywhere, that somehow telling LGBT people that they're okay as they are, that there's nothing wrong with them for being who they are is somehow going to turn straight people (especially impressionable teenagers) gay. It doesn't make any sense, and it's not "aggressive" propaganda to let people know that they're accepted in society. When people say that homosexuality or homosexual behaviour isn't "normal" they're either ignorant or they conveniently ignore the fact that homosexuality has existed throughout our history and exists widely in the animal kingdom too.

Sasha
14th October 2012, 15:12
@ quail;


The pastor goes on to accuse a worldwide conspiracy of Masons, New-Agers, postmodernists and financiers of various nationalities, of imposing ideas that are not "characteristic for Ukraine" on the nation's children

The new-agers and post-modernists are new ones to me but the rest sounds like good old "you know, the Jews" to me. Bigotry always travels in packs...

Pravda
14th October 2012, 15:39
Well, im surprised that you guys are surprised. Arguments like "i am against violence but...why they cant do it inside four walls, aggressive liberal gay european propaganda, when did you see that heterosexuals make parade, they are ruining family etc." are pretty usual where i come from. And, of course priests are the first to lead glorious battle to defend "us normal people".

cynicles
18th October 2012, 00:29
And what's sad is most of the population seems to support this. It's like Islamism in Pakistan, people want it:thumbdown:
How come they never get more then 10% of the vote in Pakistan though?

Ocean Seal
18th October 2012, 00:30
I am reminded of when Lenin said "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay"
This isn't fascism, its standard homophobic capitalism.


And what's sad is most of the population seems to support this. It's like Islamism in Pakistan, people want it:thumbdown:
Not sad, but something to be understood.

Zostrianos
18th October 2012, 06:26
How come they never get more then 10% of the vote in Pakistan though?

I don't know. What I do know is Pakistan is an islamic republic, and most citizens appear to support a hardline theocratic form of Islam. A lot of the biggest and most violent pro-Islamic protests take place in Pakistan, where any perceived insult or blasphemy to Islam draws huge mobs (and often extreme violence). It's by no means a minority of radicals; it's a good portion (if not the majority) of the population who appear to have this mentality.

cynicles
19th October 2012, 00:39
I don't know. What I do know is Pakistan is an islamic republic, and most citizens appear to support a hardline theocratic form of Islam. A lot of the biggest and most violent pro-Islamic protests take place in Pakistan, where any perceived insult or blasphemy to Islam draws huge mobs (and often extreme violence). It's by no means a minority of radicals; it's a good portion (if not the majority) of the population who appear to have this mentality.
I'm skeptical of this, I know there is always that hardline '10%', but I'm skeptical of that a large of a segment being under the sway. Pakistan being and Islamic republic is kinda silly since Jinna wasn't even religious.

Zostrianos
19th October 2012, 03:38
I'm skeptical of this, I know there is always that hardline '10%', but I'm skeptical of that a large of a segment being under the sway. Pakistan being and Islamic republic is kinda silly since Jinna wasn't even religious.

It started with Zia ul Haq in the 1970's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia-ul-Haq%27s_Islamization
Nowadays, religious minorities live in terror, the remaining Hindus are steadily emigrating to India because life in Pakistan has become impossible, and conversions to Islam are aired on tv. It's also a testament to the power of fundamentalism in pakistani society that when someone is even suspected of blasphemy toward Islam, there are huge riots and the accused often ends up savagely murdered; while when those injustices happen (as well as women being murdered for honour killings, etc.) no one bats an eye.