Boots Riley on Blac Bloc

[Prometeo liberado]

Yet another take on Blac Bloc. Where do you stand? I am of the opinion that BB is not something that is to be "controlled". BB represents a significant part of the movement and won't be going away anytime soon.
Reprinted from Kasama Project.


Boots Riley on Blac Bloc Tactics in Bay Area

Posted by Nat W (http://foritall.wordpress.com/) on October 9, 2012
http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/imagescaov0s2x2-e1349798039813.jpg (http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/imagescaov0s2x2.jpg)Boots Riley has played an important role in Occupy Oakland from its inception.

In the wake of mass arrests during a Blac Bloc action on Saturday in San Francisco, Boots Riley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_Riley), a revolutionary artist and Occupy activist, weighs in on the strategic wisdom of tactics being employed by Occupy Oakland and the use of Blac Bloc tactics in the Bay Area particularly. The following comment by Boots were posted on facebook (http://www.facebook.com/boots.riley).


by Boots Riley

The use of the blac bloc tactic in all situations is not useful. As a matter of fact, in situations such as the one we have in Oakland, its repeated use has become counter-revolutionary.Yesterday in Oakland was a good illustration of this, in which the blac bloc kids- besides busting up bank windows- also busted wind
ows of parked cars and threw stuff at another car- to which the Black driver of said vehicle got out looking to fight the crowd.Similarly, the crowd of folks at Somar were there for the end of Matthew Africa’s memorial- DJs and artists, and generally a group of folks who collectively probably know everybody in Oakland- I’m not exactly sure what or if anything happened before I saw the scene, but folks poured out of the club en masse to protect it, yelling at the march and telling folks to go home.If “the job of the revolutionary is to make the revolution seem irresistible”, the use of blac bloc has been making a revolutionary movement pretty damn resistible in Oakland, CA.When almost every conversation I have with folks from Oakland about Occupy Oakland, has the smashing of windows brought up as a reason people don’t like that grouping, scientifically it means the tactic is not working. It doesn’t matter that technically it’s only smashing corporate windows. It matters that people don’t want to join because of that. It’s not about violence/non-violence. The truth is that it’s not always corporate windows. I’m for certain tactics that would be classified as violent- even ones that have to do with fighting human beings. But what it’s about is a tactic that is detrimental in this situation. I would like to win, thank you. Not just lose with style. A style that the people around you don’t understand.Many folks bring up Greece when debating these things. I’ve been to Athens. What I witnessed there was that the movement was tied in with the people. Most of those involved grew up in Athens, they also are part of militant campaigns that happen throughout the year, which the people support, moreover, they just know the people of the city of Athens. And, perhaps due to this situation, there are way more of them.
It’s not due to lack of outreach that Saturday’s “West Coast Anti-Capitalist March”- meaning, one that not only reached out to the whole west coast- was only able to draw 150-300 people. It’s because it’s not what the people care about- not framed in that way- and because others are either bored with the tactic or scared of being arrested because some kid breaks the window of some used car that probably costs less than their own Honda Civic. But, that was in SF. Most of the folks doing this don’t know anyone from Oakland, and- I believe- don’t plan on doing any sort of base building to find out where the pulse of the people actually are.
If you ask most people in East or West Oakland what their problems are- they’ll say being broke is there number one problem. Campaigns that use militant mass movement tactics to achieve changes in that situation are ones that have a revolutionary potential.
I’ve talked to many a person in Occupy Oakland and even in some anarchist collectives who agree with me on this, but the idea is that to criticize this publicly is to make the movement look divided. But, the public non-critique of this has the effect of making the movement look monolithic, hegemonic and uninviting. Instead, people talk shit about each other behind their backs, split and divide into smaller and smaller affinity groups. All the while, not critiquing the counter-revolutionary bullshit that’s making them irrelevant in the minds of the people they ostensibly want to organize.
Let’s get this shit right and win.

[The Jay]

I think that he makes a good point. There is a time and a place for almost everything. If a tactic is not productive towards the end goal then it must be stopped, at least until it is productive for that tactic to be used.

[Paulappaul]

people are still talking about this?

[Ele'ill]

people are still talking about this?

This was in reference to the recent stuff but yes it's the same conversation

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The use of the blac bloc tactic in all situations is not useful.
That sums up how I feel. Blac Bloc as a tactic is different than Blac Bloc as a principle.

[Paulappaul]

This was in reference to the recent stuff but yes it's the same conversation

exactly, It's the same boring, dull conversation that we have had since not just the first day of Occupy, but since the first of the militant workers' movement. Can't we all just get along?

[#FF0000]

exactly, It's the same boring, dull conversation that we have had since not just the first day of Occupy, but since the first of the militant workers' movement. Can't we all just get along?

I think it's pretty important to talk about it if worker's cars are getting fucked up.

[Ele'ill]

I think it's pretty important to talk about it if worker's cars are getting fucked up.

What kind of cars were smashed?

[Yuppie Grinder]

This has been posted already a while ago.
Blac Bloc can be useful in a lot of situations.

[#FF0000]

What kind of cars were smashed?

I don't think it matters. I know some working class people with nice-ass cars. I know one family in particular that had one year where they were making bank and got a new car and additions to their house. Then the recession hit and they were flat broke again and are only able to keep the house because of that car.

I dunno. I saw this discussion before and I'm not sure why people get so defensive about it. "Black bloc" or not, smashing things up isn't always a good idea. At the same time I don't think it's usually as big a problem as folks like to think. "oh noooooo ur violence is making people uncomfortable they wont take us seriouslyyyyy"

EDIT: depends on what you're smashin up

[Paulappaul]

I think it's pretty important to talk about it if worker's cars are getting fucked up.

It's car.

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/France68/paris68aCars.jpg

We seem to have no problem applauding it when it's a historical spectacle. But for the asshole who is breaking car windows with people inside them, clearly working class, I don't think it really represents the bloc. It's like saying those wacko right wing libertarians who show up to Occupy events represent the movement. It's stupid.

[Let's Get Free]

I not sure about how effective they actually are, but if they wanna fuck up rich peoples shit, they can go right ahead.

[#FF0000]

It's car.

It's peoples means to employment.


But for the asshole who is breaking car windows with people inside them, clearly working class, I don't think it really represents the bloc. It's like saying those wacko right wing libertarians who show up to Occupy events represent the movement. It's stupid.

That's fair. I think the folks saying that Boots is wrong to criticize the "black bloc" rather than "people fucking up and breaking the wrong things".

[Paulappaul]

I think the folks saying that Boots is wrong to criticize the "black bloc" rather than "people fucking up and breaking the wrong things".

I agree. Generally I think this is people a bit overenthusiastic about Property Destruction or caught up in the moment that they make irrational decisions, not necessarily an aspect of political praxis.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think it matters. I know some working class people with nice-ass cars. I know one family in particular that had one year where they were making bank and got a new car and additions to their house. Then the recession hit and they were flat broke again and are only able to keep the house because of that car.

I dunno. I saw this discussion before and I'm not sure why people get so defensive about it. "Black bloc" or not, smashing things up isn't always a good idea. At the same time I don't think it's usually as big a problem as folks like to think. "oh noooooo ur violence is making people uncomfortable they wont take us seriouslyyyyy"

EDIT: depends on what you're smashin up

It greatly depends on the area as a lot of the areas where these marches run through a high percentage of the cars are rich folk cars. Like as in most of the cars.

[o well this is ok I guess]

It greatly depends on the area as a lot of the areas where these marches run through a high percentage of the cars are rich folk cars. Like as in most of the cars. The parking fees are usually too high for anyone who gives a shit about their money.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I don't think Black Bloc as a tactic is necessarily unproductive, but some people using the tactic do some unproductive shit sometimes. For instance on May Day in Oakland we were marching somewhere and a person randomly breaks a McDonald's window. Why? Who knows? Probably pissed off the people who have to work there and clean up after them though, I know I would be pissed off at that. And of course all the people in there are like wtf, someone just broke this window and I got glass all over my McChicken. That right there just turned a few people away from the movement if they were on the fence I bet.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think Black Bloc as a tactic is necessarily unproductive, but some people using the tactic do some unproductive shit sometimes. For instance on May Day in Oakland we were marching somewhere and a person randomly breaks a McDonald's window. Why? Who knows? Probably pissed off the people who have to work there and clean up after them though, I know I would be pissed off at that. And of course all the people in there are like wtf, someone just broke this window and I got glass all over my McChicken. That right there just turned a few people away from the movement if they were on the fence I bet.

wow, when the revolution happens all the people are gonna shit their pants and give up in awe.

[Prometeo liberado]

Obviously from the feedback here we haven't even begun to discuss this enough. Though we have talked about this issue before, my original idea was to post a thread from yet another respected source within the movement. We can never have too many points of view on any of these very important topics.

Second, in regards to property damage. When is the right time? Where is the right place? Who will make those decisions? BB acts while other vacillate. Right or wrong. No time like the present.

[#FF0000]

I don't think Black Bloc as a tactic is necessarily unproductive, but some people using the tactic do some unproductive shit sometimes. For instance on May Day in Oakland we were marching somewhere and a person randomly breaks a McDonald's window. Why? Who knows? Probably pissed off the people who have to work there and clean up after them though, I know I would be pissed off at that. And of course all the people in there are like wtf, someone just broke this window and I got glass all over my McChicken. That right there just turned a few people away from the movement if they were on the fence I bet.

No wrong nope nuh uh have you ever worked in fast food?

If someone came into the place I worked at and broke all the windows and torched it me and all of my co workers would nod our heads thoughtfully and say "finally somebody who is taking our interests to heart"

[officer nugz]

hahahaha if I saw some people smashing the windows of my car (if I had one/could afford one) I'd hit them so fucking hard with a baseball bat regardless of whether or not they're hiding behind their politics.

[Prometeo liberado]

hahahaha if I saw some people smashing the windows of my car (if I had one/could afford one) I'd hit them so fucking hard with a baseball bat regardless of whether or not they're hiding behind their politics.

You walk aroud with a baseball bat? Is this Matt Kemp?:rolleyes:

[officer nugz]

You walk aroud with a baseball bat? Is this Matt Kemp?:rolleyes:nope but I have one and if I had a car it'd be parked right outside where I live.

[Paulappaul]

hahahaha if I saw some people smashing the windows of my car (if I had one/could afford one) I'd hit them so fucking hard with a baseball bat regardless of whether or not they're hiding behind their politics.

Wow thats fucking pathetic. I remember this interview from a Trotskyist who woke up in the morning in May in 1968 in France to find his car was tipped over and on fire or something, along with all the other cars on his block. He didn't have any remorse in the least, he was psyched that the revolution was in the air that people were angry. Plus he didn't have to go to work.

[officer nugz]

Wow thats fucking pathetic.bite me.

[Os Cangaceiros]

If someone wrecked my car or set in on fire in the middle of an event in which hundreds and hundreds of cars and buildings are being wrecked and/or burnt, the sadness at not being able to drive somewhere would probably be overshadowed by the fact that I'd probably be living in one of the defining moments in my entire life.

But if some asshole just KO'd my car during a lame-ass activist march or broke into it and took a dump or something like that, I'd be pretty pissed off.

[No_Leaders]

bite me.
So if there was a revolution going on, or say something that had the potential of becoming full fledged and you came outside and found your car all smashed you'd still be angry?

[Paulappaul]

bite me.

I'd prefer to smash in your windshield then do some psycho kung fu moves to knock that stupid baseball bat out of hand and max you look foolish.

fo realz, this happened in the November 2nd General Strike march when the Black Bloc was pwning that Whole Foods. That one guy jumped over bushes with a giant stick like he was Darth Maul and was swinging around and the black bloc. It was dumb.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I might be a bit miffed if the revolution fails.
That means it's back to the same old business and I'm out of a car.
But I mean then it's sorta late to be feeling bad.

[#FF0000]

If someone wrecked my car or set in on fire in the middle of an event in which hundreds and hundreds of cars and buildings are being wrecked and/or burnt, the sadness at not being able to drive somewhere would probably be overshadowed by the fact that I'd probably be living in one of the defining moments in my entire life.

But if some asshole just KO'd my car during a lame-ass activist march or broke into it and took a dump or something like that, I'd be pretty pissed off.

This distinction is pretty important I think.

[Ostrinski]

I might be a bit miffed if the revolution fails.
That means it's back to the same old business and I'm out of a car.
But I mean then it's sorta late to be feeling bad.Steal one during the revolution for prudence's sake.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No wrong nope nuh uh have you ever worked in fast food?

If someone came into the place I worked at and broke all the windows and torched it me and all of my co workers would nod our heads thoughtfully and say "finally somebody who is taking our interests to heart"

Yeah then five seconds later you realize you won't have much of a paycheck then go "hmm...these people who are so pro-worker, they're going to help me not pay for bills or put food on the table because I live in poverty on shit wages. Thanks guys."
And yes I fuckin work at McDonalds asshole.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I think the real question is why fuck up cars at all? Why don't they just stick to banks, storefronts, and newspaper boxes. You know, bourgeois shit.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If someone's idea of revolution is trashing cars, that's just sad.

[soso17]

Yeah then five seconds later you realize you won't have much of a paycheck then go "hmm...these people who are so pro-worker, they're going to help me not pay for bills or put food on the table because I live in poverty on shit wages. Thanks guys."
And yes I fuckin work at McDonalds asshole.

Well, if it's an actual revolution, I'm sure someone could help "expropriate" whatever you need. :rolleyes: The grocery stores would surely have their windows smashed also, and I don't think your landlord would be bothering with eviction notices.

[l'Enfermé]

These Black Bloc assholes are so in love with themselves that they can't even see how fucking stupid they are and how ridiculous they look. Why are we even raise the "Do Black Bloc Tactics Work?" question when clearly during the 30 decades of this BB bullshit, BB bullshit has produced absolutely no results. If you want to jump around the streets, look intimidating in black, and vandalize and break shit(and all that you break and vandalize will have to be cleaned and repaired by workers anyways, jackass) just because, don't pretend it has anything to do with politics.

[Yazman]

MODERATOR ACTION:


bite me.

Don't make posts like this. It's a spammy one-liner and it's not allowed. I don't care if he called you pathetic - next time flag the post or bring it to a mod's attention and don't bother replying to it in such a way.

This is a warning, and if I see you do it again you're getting infracted.


people are still talking about this?

Wow thats fucking pathetic.

Yes, people are still talking about it, and if you don't like it, go to another topic. If you can't add anything constructive, substantial or meaningful to the discussion.... DON'T POST. It's as simple as that. That first post is off-topic and it's not allowed.

Furthermore, don't call other users "fucking pathetic." Don't insult them at all. Not even in the opposing ideologies forum, not anywhere. Do it again and you'll be infracted. Flaming isn't allowed.

This post constitutes a warning to officer nugz and Paulappaul.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I can see both sides on this. You would hope that a normal person suffering property damage might then feel inclined or justified in doing a little of their own, but that might not be the case so maybe you've really just inconvenienced someone or worse. But if your aim is the destruction of property relations it seems unjustifiable to flag certain spheres as off-limits.

If I imagine a situation where I woke up one morning and found my car alone trashed I would probably be upset, but if everyone on my block had their car flipped over and set on fire I feel like I would be ok with that. And at that point I think I would accept the implied invitation to do the same on the next block over. So this all feels like a question of proportion, if you decide to trash one car as a political statement, it seems like you have a responsibility to trash the rest of them as well. Otherwise its just kind of a dick move.

Edit: It seems like a dick move because I don't think the invitation to join in is properly implied if it only happens to an individual or small group. With that small of an action it just seems like something personal or an act of petty vandalism lacking any meaning behind it. The act of destroying property should either be done in such a way as to allow everyone to join in or probably not done at all.

[human strike]

"We shall smash all the things in the world to change life. You love things too much and people too little; you love people too much as things, and people as people you do not love enough." - Some angry Russians, 1917.

[l'Enfermé]

I can see both sides on this. You would hope that a normal person suffering property damage might then feel inclined or justified in doing a little of their own, but that might not be the case so maybe you've really just inconvenienced someone or worse. But if your aim is the destruction of property relations it seems unjustifiable to flag certain spheres as off-limits.

If I imagine a situation where I woke up one morning and found my car alone trashed I would probably be upset, but if everyone on my block had their car flipped over and set on fire I feel like I would be ok with that. And at that point I think I would accept the implied invitation to do the same on the next block over. So this all feels like a question of proportion, if you decide to trash one car as a political statement, it seems like you have a responsibility to trash the rest of them as well. Otherwise its just kind of a dick move.

Edit: It seems like a dick move because I don't think the invitation to join in is properly implied if it only happens to an individual or small group. With that small of an action it just seems like something personal or an act of petty vandalism lacking any meaning behind it. The act of destroying property should either be done in such a way as to allow everyone to join in or probably not done at all.
So how does trashing a few dozen cars bring the working class closer to 1) constituting itself into a class, 2) overthrowing bourgeoisie supremacy, 3) and the conquer of political power by the proletariat(the 3 immediate aims of Communists according to the Manifesto)? Seems like all it does is alienate workers and confuse them, discredits the opposition to the rule of capital and the bourgeoisie. Seems like all it does is allow a few vandals some opportunity to vandalize and vent out their anger, at the expense of the working class. Quite selfish and irresponsible I'd say.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

If it remains localized to a restricted group , for whatever reason, then I agree, it's just a group running around accomplishing little outside of hassling regular people. If it is done in such a way as to manifest as an insurrectionary moment, even if it is only a small and short lived one then I think that can lead to some kind of consciousness raising. But will it cause a working class to accept the lead of a vanguard, or organize themselves to conquer state power to wield it against their enemies? No, but outside of some anachronisms, I'm not sure anyone wants that anymore.

[l'Enfermé]

Everyone on the "far left" is an anachronism except for insurrectional anarchists?

:mellow:

[#FF0000]

Yeah then five seconds later you realize you won't have much of a paycheck then go "hmm...these people who are so pro-worker, they're going to help me not pay for bills or put food on the table because I live in poverty on shit wages. Thanks guys."
And yes I fuckin work at McDonalds asshole.

Yeah I didn't feel the same way when I worked in fast food and needed the job. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone smashed the windows of the place either. Who cares if I would have to clean it? It's not like I'd be doing anything else while I was there anyway.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Everyone on the "far left" is an anachronism except for insurrectional anarchists?

:mellow:

Is the specter of the 'far left' supposed to intimidate me into back pedaling or something? If it wasn't an anachronism it probably wouldn't be in permanent retreat would it?

[The Douche]

I'm probably not going to read the thread, because I can guess what stupid shit people have to say about the bloc (its a 40 year old tactic for fucks sake), and I did read Boots' statement, and a response he made to a critique.

Here are my comments/thoughts:

1) Quit crying, the black bloc is here to stay, its goddamn 40 years old.
2) Quit crying, during social upheavel people break windows and smash property. It has been that way since peasant uprisings in the goddamn 1600s.
3) Boots fucking Reiley is not the spokesman for black people in Oakland.
4) Boots' politics are based on appeals to identity and race which are both incorrect and damaging to the movement of the class. Black people get mad if property is destroyed? Go fuck yourself Boots, trying to speak for black people, deny the presence of black people in the bloc, and drive the movement further apart with appeals to identity politics.

Wah wah wah, some guy's car got fucked with and he was black and he wanted to fight white kids. Jesus fucking christ, why is anybody gonna give this guy the time of day? He's like the goddamn Al Sharpton of radical politics.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

PROLETARIAN REVOLUTION IS ANTIPROLETARIAN.

*head explodes*

[helot]

I think it's quite amusing that the black bloc is reduced solely to property damage. The black bloc is about confrontation and depending on the circumstances can have brilliant results. Black blocs, due to the anonymity, are in a perfect position to de-arrest people for example.

Anyway, it seems to me that people over emphasise the impact black bloc has on turning people away from joining in actions. It's no where near as effective at turning people away than our own fecklessness.

[The Douche]

I think it's quite amusing that the black bloc is reduced solely to property damage. The black bloc is about confrontation and depending on the circumstances can have brilliant results. Black blocs, due to the anonymity, are in a perfect position to de-arrest people for example.

Anyway, it seems to me that people over emphasise the impact black bloc has on turning people away from joining in actions. It's no where near as effective at turning people away than our own fecklessness.

In the US all the bloc does is property damage. The members of the bloc will sometimes confront the police, but I haven't been present for a single positive outcome in that situation. I have been de-arrested by people, but that is also extremely rare.

I do think one reasonable critique that could be made of the bloc, as it has generally appeared in the US, is that the inviduals participating do not back up the image/rhetoric/whatever.

(cue somebody calling me a macho dudebro manarchist)

I think if the bloc was actually confronting the police and winning that the bloc would be much more widely accepted, and if you push the cops out of the street you can break a hell of a lot more windows, if thats what you're like actually there for or whatever.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Black bloc tactics could have easily derailed the Chicago teacher's strike and the current Walmart strike. There is a large amount of Marxist literature explaining why this tactic doesn't work and can be counter productive, even counter-revolutionary.Its sad that over a hundred years after Alexander Berkman people are still debating the "politics of the deed".

I haven't read the whole thread. I would say that if some numbskull tried to practice "diversity of tactics" on my car, something I need to survive, I would be extremely upset.

"Diversity of tactics" is an euphemism some anarchists use to mean random property destruction.I certainly don't have a fetish for private property but I do have a fetish for personal property. Smashing shit up makes the movement look bad, alienates the working class and petty bourgeois layers who otherwise would be sympathetic and provides lots and lots of free negative publicity the corporate media is more than happy to use.

Boots Riley is right.

Again I'm not a pacifist. Nor do I categorically rule out the need for property destruction.In the movements after the Second World War, I honestly can't think of anything good that's come from black bloc. If it's "here to stay" so we must accept it, that ls like saying the capitalist mode of production is here to stay, and we must accept it. Its up to the movement to educate radicalizing youth and make sure the black bloc goes away.

This is admittedly anecdotal but it appears the black bloc is largely white and middle class.Its the tactic of the petty bourgeois, not of disciplined working class action.

[Let's Get Free]

I think it's quite amusing that the black bloc is reduced solely to property damage. The black bloc is about confrontation and depending on the circumstances can have brilliant results. Black blocs, due to the anonymity, are in a perfect position to de-arrest people for example.

Anyway, it seems to me that people over emphasise the impact black bloc has on turning people away from joining in actions. It's no where near as effective at turning people away than our own fecklessness.


The Black Bloc actually began as a defensive tactic, to protect demonstrators from police and neo fascist violence, and to allow them to appear as one large unified mass, and promote solidarity. 10-15% of the total number of protesters were often organized in a black bloc; at a demonstration of about 100,000 or 200,000 people (not all that unusual in Germany or Italy in the late-80s/early 90s) that means a pretty sizable bloc. Often at the end of a demo (and as a result of police attacks), banks, gas stations, foreign embassies, real estate offices, and supermarkets would be targeted for window-smashing. The reason that it has become associated with attack is that people in the black bloc are not pacifists--and you know how the mainstream media and bourgeois morality are about active defense by the proles...


The transplanting of this tactic to North America has led to the usual mistranslations: seemingly random window smashing and ritualistic property destruction, much smaller numbers drawing unwanted police attention, a bunch of people engaging in seemingly individualistic and adventurist acts; the fetishizing of this tactic as sufficient in itself, etc. I am not opposed to property destruction or fighting back against the cops, and there are plenty of times when a black bloc (or white bloc or pink bloc etc) is a great idea and good practice. But just because a tactic works once or twice doesn't mean that it will work five or ten times equally well. The cops learn from their mistakes, we should too.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Its interesting that some anarchists, who rail against "authoritarianism Leninist vanguardism" themselves uphold black blocism, which itself is by its very nature, is intensely vanguardist and even authoritarian. Random property destruction by its very nature is a highly dramatic and polarizing act. It leads people in directions they might not feel comfortable going in. There are times when its necessary to force a split in a movement and even a split in a specific demo.Sometimes you want to piss off and alienate liberals or encourage the assertion of more leftist layers from a more liberal mileu. How , when, and why this is done though should be a subject for intense debate, not subjected to whims of a small number of, frankly politically uneducated youth for the sake of "diversity of tactics".

Edit: Of course I mean the North American mis-translation of this tactic, not the original European practice.

[The Douche]

Black bloc tactics could have easily derailed the Chicago teacher's strike and the current Walmart strike. There is a large amount of Marxist literature explaining why this tactic doesn't work and can be counter productive, even counter-revolutionary.Its sad that over a hundred years after Alexander Berkman people are still debating the "politics of the deed".

I haven't read the whole thread. I would say that if some numbskull tried to practice "diversity of tactics" on my car, something I need to survive, I would be extremely upset.

"Diversity of tactics" is an euphemism some anarchists use to mean random property destruction.I certainly don't have a fetish for private property but I do have a fetish for personal property. Smashing shit up makes the movement look bad, alienates the working class and petty bourgeois layers who otherwise would be sympathetic and provides lots and lots of free negative publicity the corporate media is more than happy to use.

Boots Riley is right.

Again I'm not a pacifist. Nor do I categorically rule out the need for property destruction.In the movements after the Second World War, I honestly can't think of anything good that's come from black bloc. If it's "here to stay" so we must accept it, that ls like saying the capitalist mode of production is here to stay, and we must accept it. Its up to the movement to educate radicalizing youth and make sure the black bloc goes away.

This is admittedly anecdotal but it appears the black bloc is largely white and middle class.Its the tactic of the petty bourgeois, not of disciplined working class action.

1) Black bloc is not propaganda of the deed. Don't compare breaking windows to planting bombs and killing presidents/kings.

2) If your car gets fucked up, I don't care, human strike.

3) I don't give a flying fuck about your movement, I'm not part of it. (oh, and neither is the working class, by the fucking way)

4) You're a real dickhead for appealing to race/identity politics like Boots does (and like all liberals do), and how in the fuck is the majority of the black bloc, "middle class", yeah, its totally a bunch of business owners and self-employed professionals running around out there bloced up. Do you know what middle class means? (rhetorical question, since you obviously do not, given your statement)


And the black bloc has no tactical purpose at a strike (unless the strike is being physically attacked), but sabotage and that dreaded spectre of property destruction certainly do.

[The Douche]

Its interesting that some anarchists, who rail against "authoritarianism Leninist vanguardism" themselves uphold black blocism, which itself is by its very nature, is intensely vanguardist and even authoritarian. Random property destruction by its very nature is a highly dramatic and polarizing act. It leads people in directions they might not feel comfortable going in. There are times when its necessary to force a split in a movement and even a split in a specific demo.Sometimes you want to piss off and alienate liberals or encourage the assertion of more leftist layers from a more liberal mileu. How , when, and why this is done though should be a subject for intense debate, not subjected to whims of a small number of, frankly politically uneducated youth for the sake of "diversity of tactics".

Edit: Of course I mean the North American mis-translation of this tactic, not the original European practice.

"Black blocism", go ahead and see yourself the fuck out of this thread, you're not mentally equipped to participate in it.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well, if it's an actual revolution, I'm sure someone could help "expropriate" whatever you need. :rolleyes: The grocery stores would surely have their windows smashed also, and I don't think your landlord would be bothering with eviction notices.

Yeah because a ananymous kid breaking a random window is an actual revolution! This isn't a revolution yet, this is a march, these are all marches. Breaking random windows just doesn't seem like a good strategy of getting people into the movement, and yes there are people that will go "I like what these people are saying but I hate that these people are breaking stuff." A lot of people will say this. What is the tactic behind random shit like breaking a car window? Because whenever there's this discussion there's always people saying "diversity of tactics" but what the fuck kind of tactics are those? I understand the fact that people don't want to be identified by police but I don't see how petty vandalism will make the movement grow instead of just annoy a ton of people. As a tactic, how is that working?

[The Douche]

Yeah because a ananymous kid breaking a random window is an actual revolution! This isn't a revolution yet, this is a march, these are all marches. Breaking random windows just doesn't seem like a good strategy of getting people into the movement, and yes there are people that will go "I like what these people are saying but I hate that these people are breaking stuff." A lot of people will say this. What is the tactic behind random shit like breaking a car window? Because whenever there's this discussion there's always people saying "diversity of tactics" but what the fuck kind of tactics are those? I understand the fact that people don't want to be identified by police but I don't see how petty vandalism will make the movement grow instead of just annoy a ton of people. As a tactic, how is that working?

Human strike.

[Yazman]

"Black blocism", go ahead and see yourself the fuck out of this thread, you're not mentally equipped to participate in it.

If you're at the point of flaming you probably should chill out and take a break here. Try not to do it again please :P

[Lenina Rosenweg]

1) Black bloc is not propaganda of the deed. Don't compare breaking windows to planting bombs and killing presidents/kings.

Trashing Starbucks or someone's car for that matter isn't killing President Garfield or kneecapping Italian businessman but it is along the same lines. Its politics of the deed and accomplishes nothing.Its an "act" which somehow will mobilize people to overturn the system. Except that it never has, never will.

2) If your car gets fucked up, I don't care, human strike.

So when I'm out of a job and facing "issues of food security" can I crash at your place? Will you feed me? This is not a rhetorical question by any means, I have been in this situation from lack of transportation. "Human strike" fine, but this would require a degree of solidarity and human empathy which is not apparent in your posts.


3) I don't give a flying fuck about your movement, I'm not part of it. (oh, and neither is the working class, by the fucking way)

If you don't "give a flying fuck" about my movement, why do you post on a revolutionary anti-capitalist forum? My own specific organization is tiny. In the US all our organisations are tiny. What we (and any leftist worth their salt) wants to do is humbly try to provide a direction forward for working class liberation. Under the whiplash of the capitalist crisus and counter revolution the class is radicalizing. What is the way forward? The working class certainly cares about its standard of living, which is what this is all about.

4) You're a real dickhead for appealing to race/identity politics like Boots does (and like all liberals do), and how in the fuck is the majority of the black bloc, "middle class", yeah, its totally a bunch of business owners and self-employed professionals running around out there bloced up. Do you know what middle class means? (rhetorical question, since you obviously do not, given your statement)

Black bloc mostly seems to be kids from professional/managerial/technical family backgrounds, removed from the working class.I qualified this by saying "would seem to be". I haven't done a sociological survey of this element and there could be exceptions.

Historically working class movements have practiced a degree of unity and discipline, something which has not been characteristic of "hippy" elements from petty bourgeois families. This isn't a hard and fast analysis but a general observation of class behaviour. North American black blocism fits this paradigm.


And the black bloc has no tactical purpose at a strike (unless the strike is being physically attacked), but sabotage and that dreaded spectre of property destruction certainly do.

Sometimes sabotage and property destruction can be useful, not always. In the Walmart strike it quite obviously would not be.In ILWU actions, it very well may be useful. We have to think hard about how and when to utilize it though, not "smash shit up" on our own initiative because individuals or small groups think its their right.

[Prometeo liberado]

Its interesting that some anarchists, who rail against "authoritarianism Leninist vanguardism" themselves uphold black blocism, which itself is by its very nature, is intensely vanguardist and even authoritarian. Random property destruction by its very nature is a highly dramatic and polarizing act. It leads people in directions they might not feel comfortable going in. There are times when its necessary to force a split in a movement and even a split in a specific demo.Sometimes you want to piss off and alienate liberals or encourage the assertion of more leftist layers from a more liberal mileu. How , when, and why this is done though should be a subject for intense debate, not subjected to whims of a small number of, frankly politically uneducated youth for the sake of "diversity of tactics".

Edit: Of course I mean the North American mis-translation of this tactic, not the original European practice.

Despite the fact that you seem to be 'playing both sides of the field' in this thread you do bring up a very interesting observation here. BB has managed to take the tactics of some of he old "isms" and repackage them, so to speak. Thus making them more palatable. Yet at it's core BB is not a debating society, for that you have groups like Solidarity, it is a body of action. For that we should all be thankful.
As I said in the OP, BB is not something to be controlled. We can not simply dismiss the weather because we don't agree with it. And BB is an organic manifestation of the political failures of the left just as much as it is a quasi institution unto itself. Making no claim to represent anything or anyone other than itself and the issues that they deem important. IMO.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I think it's odd that labor disputes keep getting mentioned as areas where black bloc tactics wouldn't work. I don't disagree but why even bring it up? Black bloc is not a labor dispute and a labor dispute is not anti-capitalist action.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm probably not going to read the thread, because I can guess what stupid shit people have to say about the bloc (its a 40 year old tactic for fucks sake), and I did read Boots' statement, and a response he made to a critique.

Here are my comments/thoughts:

1) Quit crying, the black bloc is here to stay, its goddamn 40 years old.
2) Quit crying, during social upheavel people break windows and smash property. It has been that way since peasant uprisings in the goddamn 1600s.
3) Boots fucking Reiley is not the spokesman for black people in Oakland.
4) Boots' politics are based on appeals to identity and race which are both incorrect and damaging to the movement of the class. Black people get mad if property is destroyed? Go fuck yourself Boots, trying to speak for black people, deny the presence of black people in the bloc, and drive the movement further apart with appeals to identity politics.

Wah wah wah, some guy's car got fucked with and he was black and he wanted to fight white kids. Jesus fucking christ, why is anybody gonna give this guy the time of day? He's like the goddamn Al Sharpton of radical politics.

Why give him the time of day, he's only been actively trying to organize people for how many decades? He probably knows nothing of Oakland *sarcasm*. What about the black bloc in Oakland. Of course you can't get a name out of any of them, can't ask for their numbers, etc, they're anonymous, how do they organize if they do? Because it just seemed like individualist "I'm going to get a high from breaking this window," type of deal.

Wah wah wah? You guys cry like babies when someone questions why you broke a random persons car window, fuck off! Oh you don't give a damn if a guy got mad when you broke his car window, I guess that's how we grow a movement! Let's just not give a fuck about what an average guy whose window just got smashed in thinks about it. What's the point of that again?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Human strike.

I don't know what that means.

[The Douche]

I don't know what that means.

I didn't think you would. But I did hope you might look into it.


I'm fucking off to go eat and enjoy my day off.

I'll respond to your post later, Lenina, and as Yaz suggested I will try not to loose my temper.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I didn't think you would. But I did hope you might look into it.


I'm fucking off to go eat and enjoy my day off.

I'll respond to your post later, Lenina, and as Yaz suggested I will try not to loose my temper.
Well I look it up on anarchy101.org and there's like 3 definitions but I don't see how any of that relates to what is being said right now.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yeah I didn't feel the same way when I worked in fast food and needed the job. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone smashed the windows of the place either. Who cares if I would have to clean it? It's not like I'd be doing anything else while I was there anyway.
Well okay that's how you feel, not how I do. I really don't want to clean up after someone's mess, I don't want my managers stressed out and pissed because that bites me in the ass, and I definitely don't want to sit there and hear customers complain about how stupid the protesters are who just smashed a window onto some girl who's just trying to eat some cheap ass food. But more importantly I don't want to do all that because some guy wants an adrenaline rush that will polarize a lot of people.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I need my car for my own personal survival and sustenance. My ability to work, study and so on is directly dependent on its functioning and a substantial amount of the exchange value given to me for my labor power or granted to me to sustain me in my studies has been invested in it. How does it help the revolution to have workers, students, pensioners and family members getting the means to sustain their family smashed? If done to someone who isn't already a far-leftist with well-thought out politics it might well make them more reactionary! I am not a member of the ruling class, so unless there's an actual revolution and the entire material conditions of society end up getting overhauled, it's just creating a huge fucking inconvenience to commit vandalism to my personal property (that and I happen to like my car)

What is also bothersome about some people participating in "black bloc" tactics is that they initiate violence or vandalism at a protest where a majority of the participants do not want such acts to be done. Maybe in some circumstances this is reasonable, but generally speaking such tactics are going to alienate families, the elderly, the disabled, workers with dependents, and others who are interested in showing their solidarity without participating in those kinds of tactics. When such tactics are used in Greece, in part thanks to their history of radical protest but also thanks to the very sudden drop in living standards and the violent counterattacks by police. However I have heard of cases in places like Oakland where families and others are less willing to participate in social protest.


I think there's a place for such tactics, but that place is very specific. A tactic is not a moral absolute or a principle ... not every protest is going to call for that tactic, and people participating in it should think twice about the strategic benefits, but also consider how they might effect the material conditions of the people they are attacking or who live and work in the general area. Or, if a protest does call for such a tactic, the tactic should be used very specifically, such as helping to protect people from violent police counterattacks, stopping fascists, or targeting a business where there would be significant, foreseeable benefits (like trashing a store which is trying to expand into where the homeless live, or a store which fired a bunch of workers trying to unionize).

[Prometeo liberado]

Well okay that's how you feel, not how I do. I really don't want to clean up after someone's mess, I don't want my managers stressed out and pissed because that bites me in the ass, and I definitely don't want to sit there and hear customers complain about how stupid the protesters are who just smashed a window onto some girl who's just trying to eat some cheap ass food. But more importantly I don't want to do all that because some guy wants an adrenaline rush that will polarize a lot of people.

What your saying, If I am reading this correctly, is that your idea of agitation is one in which people's feelings and sensibilities are left untouched? That revolutionary change must come without feathers being ruffled? Your cool with it as long as it doesn't make your boss upset or burden your work day? Systemic change is fine until the process affects you personally(sounds very liberal to me). Yeah I can see how cleaning up after people when that is actually part of the job would constitute an imposition.
I read an awful lot of "I" and "me" here. I'd like to know more about your thoughts on socialist agitation and struggle as it pertains to not upsetting the boss and your two best friends, "I" and "me". Guess the words 'team' and 'sacrifice' gotta sit this one out, right?

[No_Leaders]

Obviously there's an appropriate time for Black Bloc tactics and there's times it's not necessary. In it's true from it was made as a defensive tactic in Italy, Germany as well as with a lot of Autonomists in Germany. So maybe an act or two of a few stones being thrown are to some folks petty vandalism, but say if 100's of stones are thrown it becomes a political action, one showing dissent and frustration. I'm not saying it's gonna be the spark to ignite revolution (Greece is a good testament to this) but in Europe at least the Black Bloc shows they're on the offensive especially against fascists and the piggies. Would it be good during a Strike? No. No it wouldn't unless they were in form of a defensive group to protect the striking workers, otherwise in that given situation it isn't.

This goes back to a thread i posted in last night about violence vs non-violence. Every action has it's place, you can't reduce yourself to strictly using non-violence as a tactic to achieve revolution alone, just like you cannot rely on property destruction/vandalism/or violence as a leading action to bring about revolution. I think many of the marxist and anarchist urban guerrilla groups in the 60's/70's show that this tactic does not 'awaken' the masses and workers into mobilizing. That's why we need to diversify, realize what tactics and actions are appropriate for which situation.

Sure, some destructive tactics may attack people's sensibilities but fuck, when the revolution is happening there WILL be a lot of people who aren't going to be happy, and will complain and gripe about said actions by said radical leftists, and ask why the police aren't controlling the situation. Those are our good reactionary friends who will go out of their way to side with the state and it's armed thugs to suppress and crush us and make sure we pay in horrible ways. Fuck their bourgeois morals. Not everyone can be persuaded to see reality and see why capitalism is bad. There's people who genuinely believe it to be a good economic system, and believe that anything else is bad, try as you may those people are stuck in their ways of thinking and will fight 'evil socialists communists scum' to the death.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

What your saying, If I am reading this correctly, is that your idea of agitaion is one in which people's feelings and sensibilities are left untouched? That revolutionary change must come without feathers being ruffled? Your cool with it as long as it doesn't make your boss upset or burden your work day? System change is fine untill the process affects you personaly(sounds very liberal to me). Yeah I can see how cleaning up after people when that is actually part of the job would constitute an imposition.
I read an awful lot of "I" and "me" here. I'd like to know more about your thoughts on socialist agitation and struggle as it pertains to not upsetting the boss and your two best friends, "I" and "me". Guess the words 'team' and 'sacrifice' gotta sit this one out, right?
That's funny considering my last sentence, let's set up a strawman. If it was system changing, if it was building a revolutionary movement, I wouldn't mind it. But I don't see that as the situation, it's just ritualistic smashing shit. These people have turned smashing a car window into a spectacle, oh look there are the anarchists smashing another window! They don't do that every time they march in their black attire! Yeah, revolutions will ruffle people's feathers, struggle will bring antagonism between classes to the forefront, etc. But this isn't a revolution, those workers obviously weren't involved, it just looks like a stereotypical teenage anarchist breaking a McDonald's window.

[Prometeo liberado]

it just looks like a stereotypical teenage anarchist breaking a McDonald's window.

And what's wrong with that? BB isn't speaking for the class. BB does not ask it's people "who works where? Fine, only you can smash this place up". BB, like I said earlier will not act according to your preconceived ideas of action. What they will do is take it to capitalism/consumerism when given the chance. It's ugly, but I got no problem with it.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And what's wrong with that? BB isn't speaking for the class. BB does not ask it's people "who works where? Fine, only you can smash this place up". BB, like I said earlier will not act according to your preconceived ideas of action. What they will do is take it to capitalism/consumerism when given the chance. It's ugly, but I got no problem with it.
Take it to capitalism/consumerism haha, that's hilarious! Window companies probably make a nice profit off of these "tactics". I have to tell you what's wrong with a stereotypical anarchist? You know what one is? A stereotypical teenage anarchist is a spoiled brat who's mad mommy won't buy them that new sports car so they act out. Stereotypical teenage anarchist has never worked a day in their lives, stereotypical teenage anarchist is acting out because they're an angsty teenager who thinks it's cool to be rebellious, stereotypical teenage anarchist is far-removed from the real world. Are these what these people are? Probably not, I've hung around these types, many come from working class backgrounds and live in shitty conditions too. The problem is not that it's "ugly", I think it's visually appealing. The problem is whether or not it's a worthy tactic in a given strategy. But I'm beginning to think there is no strategy besides break shit, confront police.

How does it raise class consciousness, how does it take it to capitalism? Stuff break and are simply replaced the same day without the help of our anarchist friends, this is clearly not taking it to capitalism. If you're a working class person and you hear that a bunch of people in a protest were breaking car windows and McDonald's windows is that going to elevate your consciousness?

And maybe we should be talking about how the BB is totally unaccountable to anybody, how they demand to be part of every struggle with the freedom to do whatever they want with no compromise. This isn't a problem? Demanding complete and absolute freedom to act autonomously doing whatever they want within a broader movement. These ideas and tactics can't even be discussed, you'll just get "diversity of tactics" thrown in your face every time.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And jbeard they fit in perfectly every single time to the preconceived notion people have of them. People see BB and immediately think "something is going to get smashed up". What the purpose is, idk, I can't ever really get a straight answer out of people when I ask this, how smashing some random guys car window is furthering the strategy towards working class emancipation.

[#FF0000]

Well okay that's how you feel, not how I do. I really don't want to clean up after someone's mess, I don't want my managers stressed out and pissed because that bites me in the ass, and I definitely don't want to sit there and hear customers complain about how stupid the protesters are who just smashed a window onto some girl who's just trying to eat some cheap ass food. But more importantly I don't want to do all that because some guy wants an adrenaline rush that will polarize a lot of people.

That's counter to literally all of my experience working in retail or fast food. The only co-workers I've ever had who didn't have full on disdain for every single customer, the company, and the managers are folks that aspired to management themselves.

What I'm saying is that this is just how you feel and I think more fast food workers (and retail employees) feel as I do. That's been my experience in fast food and retail so far.

[Ele'ill]

Well okay that's how you feel, not how I do. I really don't want to clean up after someone's mess,

You do that all shift long anyways why would you suddenly be super duper pissed off after radicals liberated some windows?




I don't want my managers stressed out and pissed because that bites me in the ass, and I definitely don't want to sit there and hear customers complain about how stupid the protesters are

So you'd be more comfortable as a scab or work place wannabe boss? Do you think your bosses would be chill during an organizing drive?



who just smashed a window onto some girl who's just trying to eat some cheap ass food.

When did this happen and how often does this happen? What about in Oakland when the city was paralyzed by the 'general strike' and there were all those people not participating should we cater to their desires too? The bosses? The bosses friends? The people who hate us for being radicals? The people who wanted pizza delivered but couldn't get it who are now militantly opposed to 'all that stuff'?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

That's counter to literally all of my experience working in retail or fast food. The only co-workers I've ever had who didn't have full on disdain for every single customer, the company, and the managers are folks that aspired to management themselves.

What I'm saying is that this is just how you feel and I think more fast food workers (and retail employees) feel as I do. That's been my experience in fast food and retail so far.

I do have a disdain for most customers, and I definitely don't want to be around a full store of customers who are irate some kid smashed it's windows. Because who's going to have to hear them complain? The person who comes into contact with all these customers. And yes, I hate most my managers too, but I don't want them pissed off or stressed because who do you think they take that out on? It's definitely not going to be the customer, it's going to be me and I don't want that so some guy can get an adrenaline rush. And if you read my post in the current What's on your mind thread you'd know my managers recently told me they were considering promoting me to manager and I have absolutely no interest in it whatsoever, so let's not go insinuating shit okay.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

No one can presume to speak for the entire working class but activists need to be able to speak up for things relevant to people's lives. How does smashing Starbucks windows, burning a US flag and vandalizing the Oakland town hall do these things? I have no reverence for private property and no interest in the symbols of "civic pride" and I hate the American flag fetish.What do these purely symbolic gestures against these symbols accomplish though? Its like trying to organize in a bible belt area and starting off with "Jesus sucks" as a slogan. I might agree but what's the point?

Tactics mentioned-smashing Starbucks windows, etc, aren't even a blow against consumerism. Fighting against consumerism itself can be a bit complicated. I despise the "Black Friday" hype, but for many working class folks, this is one of the few areas where people feel they can do something nice for their family and loved ones.The anti-BF protests in Atlanta last year were counter productive, as many in Occupy Atlanta came to realize. Anyway consumerism isn't the enemy, capitalism is.

As far as a "human strike" goes, tbh I am not familiar with that tactic. A strike is withdrawing labor from the circuit of capital accumulation. What I got from anarchism 101, without wading though discussions of Tiqqun and other theory,is that if its not to be mere life stylism,is that a human strike is something which would require a very high level of working class solidarity and discipline. A "human strike" would involve the creation of working class countercultural (in the original sense of the term) institutions. Maybe like the classic European socialist parties at their height.

It seems that matters of survival for many people are treated in a flippant fashion.

If, for example, my car is trashed in a protest (I drive a 2000 Chevy Malibu, a car which barely passed inspection, if anyone's interested) I would need a community-a network of coops, communes, collectives, though which I could contribute to and in turn get what I need to survive. At this stage US society and the US working class is highly atomized and we're indoctrinated with an ethic of competition and individual accumulation. The only institutions people have to fall back on right now are churches, especially fundy mega churches (a major reason for their popularity) and the nuclear family.Without any network of solidarity a "human strike" is lifestylism.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You do that all shift long anyways why would you suddenly be super duper pissed off after radicals liberated some windows?Even if part of your job is to clean the lobby you think it's therefore okay? I get pissed when somebody leaves their tray on the table for me to clean up, or when these stupid kids come in after every high school football game and wreck the place. Why should I feel differently if someone caused a probably stressful day into an even more stressfull day? Some kid got off on it, yay for him.




So you'd be more comfortable as a scab or work place wannabe boss? Do you think your bosses would be chill during an organizing drive?
It's funny that you put a broken window during a march on the same level as an organizing drive. But nice straw man, kind of a sloppy job, but it looks alright.

It's funny that you would even relate the two really. One consists of workers collectively coming together as workers and the other consists of anonymous individuals seemingly acting out on a whim.





When did this happen and how often does this happen? What about in Oakland when the city was paralyzed by the 'general strike' and there were all those people not participating should we cater to their desires too? The bosses? The bosses friends? The people who hate us for being radicals? The people who wanted pizza delivered but couldn't get it who are now militantly opposed to 'all that stuff'?
It happened in Oakland on May Day. I'd agree if May Day was a real general strike but it wasn't. Going to Oakland and on the way back I talked to numerous people on BART who had no idea that anything at all was going on that day. Chances are most of the people had no idea it was going on, weren't going around with their daily lives because they were the "bosses friend" but because they didn't know about it. Or if they did hear about it they ignored it because the call for a general strike wasn't coming from masses of people at the bottom, it wasn't coming from the workers organizing with mass support from below that call for a general strike. You can't just call for a general strike and label all those that didn't join in the "bosses friend" if the workers en masse are not backing it.

It seems like you guys have no sense of context, this isn't the revolution, these are demonstrations, some of which are pretty small. And if you haven't noticed the radical left in America is minuscule, we can't exactly afford to shit on people and tell 'em shit happens.

[Ele'ill]

No one can presume to speak for the entire working class but activists need to be able to speak up for things relevant to people's lives. How does smashing Starbucks windows, burning a US flag and vandalizing the Oakland town hall do these things? I have no reverence for private property and no interest in the symbols of "civic pride" and I hate the American flag fetish.What do these purely symbolic gestures against these symbols accomplish though? Its like trying to organize in a bible belt area and starting off with "Jesus sucks" as a slogan. I might agree but what's the point?

quite a few workers break stuff at work, sabotage stuff alone or together to varying extremes cause they're mad, they hate bosses and the job generally and they feel trapped. I don't see the relevance in other people telling them to stop doing it in the same way I don't see any reason for people to stop escalation in the street or just generally outside of work in the 'community' whatever that might look like.



It seems that matters of survival for many people are treated in a flippant fashion.

If, for example, my car is trashed in a protest (I drive a 2000 Chevy Malibu, a car which barely passed inspection, if anyone's interested)......

The cars that are usually smashed are luxury vehicles. Sometimes things happen and we can play the what-if game forever if you really want to.

[Prometeo liberado]

Tactics mentioned-smashing Starbucks windows, etc, aren't even a blow against consumerism. Fighting against consumerism itself can be a bit complicated. I despise the "Black Friday" hype, but for many working class folks, this is one of the few areas where people feel they can do something nice for their family and loved ones.The anti-BF protests in Atlanta last year were counter productive, as many in Occupy Atlanta came to realize. Anyway consumerism isn't the enemy, capitalism is.

If Capitalism is the enemy would it not be wise to strike where the enemy is the weakest? That, IMO, would be at it's consumerist underbelly. At its symbols of disparity.

[No_Leaders]

You know if some angry protestors smashed up my work i'd probably participate. You're thinking of the 'now' situation without looking at the broader perspective of things. Sometimes it's not the right time or place to use property destruction, and sometimes it is. Every situation is different, but i don't mind militant tactics mixed in with other forms of action. I think in the states especially people are too passive for fear of police repression, where as in europe comrades are throwing bricks, molotovs, showing they are extremely pissed off and not going to let the piggies, and rich scum walk over them, not without a fight anyways. Here in the ol' U.S. we march their predefined route that they coral us into, stay behind their fences or 'protest free zones' as they call them, we cower when police show up in riot suits with billy clubs. Maybe some of the BB folks take the frustration out on the starbucks window, granted it's still symbolic, but maybe that's the only way they feel they can make a direct attack on symbols or capitalism and greed. But really comrade Tool, why such disdain for the BB? I recall you said you participated in a protest and saw how liberating it was people spray painting slogans and smashing up the banks, stuff that if you tried on any other day alone the cops would come at you, or cop callers would incriminate you. So really is the BB such a bad tactic?

[Os Cangaceiros]

No one can presume to speak for the entire working class but activists need to be able to speak up for things relevant to people's lives. How does smashing Starbucks windows, burning a US flag and vandalizing the Oakland town hall do these things? I have no reverence for private property and no interest in the symbols of "civic pride" and I hate the American flag fetish.What do these purely symbolic gestures against these symbols accomplish though? Its like trying to organize in a bible belt area and starting off with "Jesus sucks" as a slogan. I might agree but what's the point?

Shouldn't disregard symbolic actions off-hand. Symbolism can be a powerful tool.

Not that I necessarily think that the BB qualifies as such.

[Grenzer]

The black bloc provides and extremely valuable service to the state of discrediting and alienating revolutionary anti-capitalist struggle in the eyes of ordinary workers, and saves them the trouble of having cops disguise themselves as anarchists to do it for them.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I've had jobs I've despised. To be honest, I've stolen stuff from employers-I worked for a bookstore for a time with an abusive supervisor. I figured out how to take the chip out of a book and I took the opportunity to enlarge my library.I worked for a Walgreen's while in school and I got all kinds of goodies. I worked for a call center, a job I hated. If protesters wanted to trash the place I would have willingly helped them. Indeed myself and a few friends of mine half seriously thought of burning the place down (the conversation was stopped before it got serious, just people talking trash, if you will). I worked for a beer warehouse/delivery place where, well you can imagine what opportunities it offered.I've had utter contempt and even rage for employers I've had.

Of course this "bad attitude" was the result of bullying abusive supervisors, very low pay for hard work, and generally meaningless, unsatisfying work.

The thing is the people who control the low paid service sector know their employees are alienated and hate them.They know there will be a certain amount of "leakage", employee theft and sabotage.This is a built in externality.

I once worked as a web designer for a specialty gourmet shop in Cambridge, MA. The customers were very wealthy Boston area yuppies. My boss, the owner of the shop, was transgendered but was extreme right wing politically (an admirer of Francisco Franco). This person paid her employees-almost entirely Hispanic, minimum wage or just slightly above minimum wage. This person was also constantly verbally abusive. Not surprisingly the employees would steal her blind. So my boss put cameras all over the store, ostensibly to guard against customer theft but in reality to stop rampant employee theft.

This was just a microcosm of what happens in retail sales all the time. The bosses know worker's atitudes.Employee theft and sabotage may be fun and satisfying, but its not doing anything to bring down capitalism.

[#FF0000]

The black bloc provides and extremely valuable service to the state of discrediting and alienating revolutionary anti-capitalist struggle in the eyes of ordinary workers, and saves them the trouble of having cops disguise themselves as anarchists to do it for them.

And what is this based on?

A lot of the folks I've worked with don't care about a thing until something is broken, flipped over, and on fire.

[The Douche]

This thread has been done a million times over.

I don't care if militancy alienates people.

I don't care about building mass movements, movements of the class develop out of material conditions, not the actions of class militants.

Boots Riley is a dick who acts like he represents all the black people in Oakland and who plays up liberal identity politics to divide the class.

It sucks if your ride gets fucked up, but I don't need to make any excuses cause I'm not the one who did it, and if it stops you from getting to work, then oh well/herpderp/human strike bro/enjoy your day off.

If you work at McDonalds and don't want to see its windows smashed you're probably not a communist.

Disruption of capital is one of my main goals as a militant of the class, I would prefer that this happens in the most efficient way possible (maximum damage to capital, least ammount of collateral damage, even lesser risk of being caught), the black bloc offers one method, so I accept it, small group/solo actions under the cover of night are another method, and I accept them as well. Civil disobedience is a method, but it has a high risk (almost garuntee) of being caught, so I reject it as tactically unsound. Permitted marches and rallies though safe, are ineffective at disrupting capital, so I reject them as tactically unsound.

I have practically nothing in common with many of you, politically. There isn't even a reason for me to argue this with you, as far as I am concerned, we're not even on the same team.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Well, if it's an actual revolution, I'm sure someone could help "expropriate" whatever you need. :rolleyes: The grocery stores would surely have their windows smashed also, and I don't think your landlord would be bothering with eviction notices.
Why? "Hey, it's a revolution, let's smash grocery store windows!" A revolution means, in part, appropriating the means of production, distribution, and exchange, not damaging them unnecessarily.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It sucks if your ride gets fucked up, but I don't need to make any excuses cause I'm not the one who did it, and if it stops you from getting to work, then oh well/herpderp/human strike bro/enjoy your day off.
"Oh, well, a worker lost their job because they couldn't get to work, and now how are they going to pay the rent and buy food. Not my problem, bro." Gotta love that proletarian solidarity there!

[Prometeo liberado]

This thread has been done a million times over.

The intention of this thread was to read from another persons viewpoint, if the OP was ever read. Like or dislike Boots, that's of no concern to me. As I stated before this topic is not even close to being exhausted as the arguments here have become void of anything close intelligent. This has degenerated into childish "but I work there" nonsense. This is about about tactics and how they are applied. Not about the validity of BB. If that's your issue then you best sooner argue with the sun about it's validity of giving you a suntan against your will. Pretty sure.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

That one guy jumped over bushes with a giant stick like he was Darth Maul and was swinging around and the black bloc. It was the coolest fucking thing ever.

Fixed.

[Ostrinski]

I have practically nothing in common with many of you, politically. There isn't even a reason for me to argue this with you, as far as I am concerned, we're not even on the same team.So why do you come here, let alone administer the place? If when viewing threads, all you see is political enemies, then how is that at all enjoyable for you? I don't believe that you hate everyone here that much, I say it's just muscle-flexing or you're frustrated with something else in your life.

[Ele'ill]

Even if part of your job is to clean the lobby you think it's therefore okay? I get pissed when somebody leaves their tray on the table for me to clean up, or when these stupid kids come in after every high school football game and wreck the place. Why should I feel differently if someone caused a probably stressful day into an even more stressfull day? Some kid got off on it, yay for him.

Did you hate yourself as a kid or something? Is that scenario supposed to be a bad thing if it were true (which it is sometimes probably) cause I think it's pretty rad that there are kids willing to engage in direct action. At least they don't have to listen to you complain about having to listen to customers complain about protesters. "Those damn customers and bosses complaining about those damn protesters-.... fuck those protesters."






It's funny that you put a broken window during a march on the same level as an organizing drive.

I think it's exciting when people from the area come together and do stuff. Sometimes it's a lot more than a broken window and things start to tilt towards civil unrest and sometimes it's just a broken fast food window but I don't think there's compelling reasons why they shouldn't do it or why it's bad either way.




and the other consists of anonymous individuals seemingly acting out on a whim.

anonymous workers being alive outside of work



Employee theft and sabotage may be fun and satisfying, but its not doing anything to bring down capitalism.

Honestly there's a lot that isn't bringing down capitalism.

[The Douche]

"Oh, well, a worker lost their job because they couldn't get to work, and now how are they going to pay the rent and buy food. Not my problem, bro." Gotta love that proletarian solidarity there!

I have worked with some pretty tough and non-understanding bosses. If I called them and told them I was gonna be late/couldn't come in cause my car got set on fire/smashed in a riot I doubt they would fire me. Get fucking real.

Not to mention I (and I'm sure many other adult members of this board) have housed plenty of people through the years on my couch while they got back on their feet.

It sucks to get fired, it sucks to have your car fucked with, but do you honestly expect me to denounce militancy because of it? For fucks sake, you're the member of an organization with an armed wing that bombs and kills people. Sweet "proletarian solidarity", homie.

[Paulappaul]

If someone's idea of revolution is trashing cars, that's just sad.

I don't think that's anyone's idea of a revolution, nor do I think Black Bloc folk think that smashing a car = destroying a social relation. It's a simple as that, these people aren't idiots.

[The Douche]

So why do you come here, let alone administer the place? If when viewing threads, all you see is political enemies, then how is that at all enjoyable for you? I don't believe that you hate everyone here that much, I say it's just muscle-flexing or you're frustrated with something else in your life.

Because there are a few people who I agree with or who are close enough to my politics for me to consider them allies. It also provides the space for me to present my politics and to influence the politics of others.

I do not want to give the impression that I hate or even dislike people on here. (since I have only ever met one or two members of the board) Just because I think somebody is on the "other team" regarding politics doesn't mean I hate them, I don't hate my parents, or my coworkers, or the, y'know, cast majority of people I interact with in my day-to-day.

The only thing I am particularly frustrated with is my own involvement in one of "those threads" on revleft that happen every couple of months about the same topics. (black bloc, kronstadt, stalin vs trotsky, anarchy vs lenin, anarchist sabotage, the purges, etc)

[Ele'ill]

Of interest to this discussion and I posted it last time this topic came up too


oesjegD1-Vg

-BuPK81aWks

JIXEmeTRdUQ

[A Revolutionary Tool]

quite a few workers break stuff at work, sabotage stuff alone or together to varying extremes cause they're mad, they hate bosses and the job generally and they feel trapped. I don't see the relevance in other people telling them to stop doing it in the same way I don't see any reason for people to stop escalation in the street or just generally outside of work in the 'community' whatever that might look like.

Because that doesn't do shit at all. This seems to be a recurring theme in threads when talking about tactics. Individual little acts of blowing off steam is not going to destroy capitalism. Oh you got a little steam out but you're still a fucking slave to the capitalist class, you've still got to go to a job that you hate with all of your heart, to a job where you hate with all your guts the management. So we're trying to build a movement to end that, to end the exploitation, to end the misery, to take control of our lives, but we're shot down as bourgie or something when we suggest some tactics are polarizing and alienating people! I don't see random property destruction for the sake of property destruction as a good organizing tool and it turns a ton of people away. I'm sorry if you don't see that but, like Boots, I don't know how many times I've tried talking to people only to have them talk about some kid smashing a window. It's counter-productive to just break windows every single time there's a protest but you guys hold onto that shit like it's dogma, holy fuck. Gotta go break a window, I'm uber fucking revolutionary!

[Ele'ill]

Because that doesn't do shit at all. This seems to be a recurring theme in threads when talking about tactics. Individual little acts of blowing off steam is not going to destroy capitalism. Oh you got a little steam out but you're still a fucking slave to the capitalist class, you've still got to go to a job that you hate with all of your heart, to a job where you hate with all your guts the management. So we're trying to build a movement to end that, to end the exploitation, to end the misery, to take control of our lives, but we're shot down as bourgie or something when we suggest some tactics are polarizing and alienating people! I don't see random property destruction for the sake of property destruction as a good organizing tool and it turns a ton of people away. I'm sorry if you don't see that but, like Boots, I don't know how many times I've tried talking to people only to have them talk about some kid smashing a window. It's counter-productive to just break windows every single time there's a protest but you guys hold onto that shit like it's dogma, holy fuck. Gotta go break a window, I'm uber fucking revolutionary!

but this isn't a reply at all to anything I've said it's your misunderstanding of insurrectionary tactics

you should check out those videos

[Os Cangaceiros]

Because that doesn't do shit at all. This seems to be a recurring theme in threads when talking about tactics. Individual little acts of blowing off steam is not going to destroy capitalism. Oh you got a little steam out but you're still a fucking slave to the capitalist class, you've still got to go to a job that you hate with all of your heart, to a job where you hate with all your guts the management. So we're trying to build a movement to end that, to end the exploitation, to end the misery, to take control of our lives, but we're shot down as bourgie or something when we suggest some tactics are polarizing and alienating people! I don't see random property destruction for the sake of property destruction as a good organizing tool and it turns a ton of people away. I'm sorry if you don't see that but, like Boots, I don't know how many times I've tried talking to people only to have them talk about some kid smashing a window. It's counter-productive to just break windows every single time there's a protest but you guys hold onto that shit like it's dogma, holy fuck. Gotta go break a window, I'm uber fucking revolutionary!

I think the fact that a broken window can totally alter the trajectory of a debate regarding real economic issues says something pretty profound about the people you're trying to mobilize, if true. For example, the March 30th strike in Spain featured many banks and stores being smashed/burnt, sidewalks being torn up etc. and as far as I know there wasn't a massive amount of handwringing from the radical left there about such matters.

I guess it shows that the American left still has an extremely long way to go if they hope to change anyone's opinions regarding property, which is a pretty sacrosanct concept for most Americans.

[Manic Impressive]

The idea that property damage causes extra exploitation or a lowering of conditions for workers is false. Workers don't actually have to do more work when production is halted. They get paid the same for however long they are at work not for how much income the employer makes. So in fact production being halted would usually mean work stopping while an outside company comes in to fix it meaning less work for the employees in the workplace that's been damaged. Less work means less exploitation of their labour.

There are of course going to be exceptions but this is generally going to be the case. For example when the terrorist attack happened in London i got the day off with full pay some made it into work and were thus being exploited more than me but still they had barely any work to do.

I'm not supporting any tactics just stating that this line of argument is fallacious. Of course any damaging of personal property or damage/sabotage that puts other workers in danger is completely condemnable.

[ed miliband]

Shouldn't disregard symbolic actions off-hand. Symbolism can be a powerful tool.

Not that I necessarily think that the BB qualifies as such.

it can be, but british 'class war' have been trying symbolic actions for the last 30 years and... well, we both know nowt has come of that.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You know if some angry protestors smashed up my work i'd probably participate. You're thinking of the 'now' situation without looking at the broader perspective of things. Sometimes it's not the right time or place to use property destruction, and sometimes it is. Every situation is different, but i don't mind militant tactics mixed in with other forms of action. I think in the states especially people are too passive for fear of police repression, where as in europe comrades are throwing bricks, molotovs, showing they are extremely pissed off and not going to let the piggies, and rich scum walk over them, not without a fight anyways. Here in the ol' U.S. we march their predefined route that they coral us into, stay behind their fences or 'protest free zones' as they call them, we cower when police show up in riot suits with billy clubs. Maybe some of the BB folks take the frustration out on the starbucks window, granted it's still symbolic, but maybe that's the only way they feel they can make a direct attack on symbols or capitalism and greed. But really comrade Tool, why such disdain for the BB? I recall you said you participated in a protest and saw how liberating it was people spray painting slogans and smashing up the banks, stuff that if you tried on any other day alone the cops would come at you, or cop callers would incriminate you. So really is the BB such a bad tactic?
Yes indeed it did feel very good, I was on top of the world, one of the greatest days of my life. But then you get down from your high and realize it's just that. And the best part was not watching people get away with random petty crimes but was when all the people, bb included, linked arms and made the cops back up all the way down the street. That was awesome, that was inspiring. People were throwing stuff at the cops while they were trying to arrest people, I have no problem with that whatsoever. But then you get to random property destruction and it's alienating to about 90% of the people in the demonstration who aren't in the bb. You get home and all people remember is that a window got broken and you can't get people to look past that. I talk to people and they understand why someone would try and de-arrest someone, why someone would throw something at police, sometimes even think it's alright to vandalize a bank considering how badly they fucked up. But a random car? "You guys are dicks, why would you even do that?" Even if that someone is rich, it don't matter. After hearing that a thousand times I started thinking it might have felt good just watching someone do that, but this obviously isn't how we're going to build a movement. But you can't even discuss how maybe people shouldn't break windows at random it seems. There is a time and a place for everything, I don't think America is there yet.

[Os Cangaceiros]

it can be, but british 'class war' have been trying symbolic actions for the last 30 years and... well, we both know nowt has come of that.

Well when I meant that it could have power, I meant in response to something of contemporary relevance...like when the Nazis invaded Greece, and those two Greek students climbed the Acropolis and tore down the swastika flag.

I'm not too familiar with Class War, I just know that it's founded by Ian Bonehead and they participate in pranks and trolls of "the rich", right?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I think the fact that a broken window can totally alter the trajectory of a debate regarding real economic issues says something pretty profound about the people you're trying to mobilize, if true. For example, the March 30th strike in Spain featured many banks and stores being smashed/burnt, sidewalks being torn up etc. and as far as I know there wasn't a massive amount of handwringing from the radical left there about such matters.

I guess it shows that the American left still has an extremely long way to go if they hope to change anyone's opinions regarding property, which is a pretty sacrosanct concept for most Americans.

The black bloc issue seems to get people on both sides emotionally involved. Anyway I would say the situation in Spain is much different from that of the US. Spain has seen a rapid mass radicalization over the past year. Hundreds of thousands of people have been marching, not against the "1$
%" but against capitalism itself. Some say Spain may be in a pre-insurrectionary situation.In such a situation no one cares if shop windows are broken. Its not that the left is more advanced in Spain, its that the level of class consciousness is much more advanced.

Even in Spain today, or Paris 68 for that matter I don't know of smashing shit up is all that productive.In the US class consciousness is still very low so errors of the movement are that much more glaring.

Anyway, other arguments aside , I think the worst thing about
black bloc" is that it doesn't accomplish anything.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It sucks to get fired, it sucks to have your car fucked with, but do you honestly expect me to denounce militancy because of it?
I'm not asking you to denounce it. As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with Black Bloc as a tactic, but I think it needs to be targeted better in some situations so that it isn't counter-productive.


For fucks sake, you're the member of an organization with an armed wing that bombs and kills people. Sweet "proletarian solidarity", homie.
Technically, had an armed wing, but the armed struggle in Ireland had more support when it was targeting the state or pro-British death squads than when it was being more broadly used or in such a way that non-involved workers were being harmed.

But you don't see me saying, "Something bad happened to you because of militant action? Tough luck, bro," which seemed to be your attitude.

[Ele'ill]

where are all these consistently terrible things happening to people during direct actions

[ed miliband]

Well when I meant that it could have power, I meant in response to something of contemporary relevance...like when the Nazis invaded Greece, and those two Greek students climbed the Acropolis and tore down the swastika flag.

I'm not too familiar with Class War, I just know that it's founded by Ian Bonehead and they participate in pranks and trolls of "the rich", right?

i mean, i have to say other than one person on another forum we both post on, who expressed a mutual hatred of ian bone, i've heard nothing but good stuff about him as a person, and he does seem like a proper gent. plus i've seen him talk a few times after demos or whatever and yeah, he seems like a good chap.

but yeah, 'class war' actions basically amount to marching round wealthy neighbourhoods with signs saying 'hang the rich', going to private schools and mocking the kids, haranguing yuppies. i mean, all of it is pretty funny and i'm not against it per se, i just don't think it advances is class struggle anymore than taking an extra long break on the job does.

[Prometeo liberado]

The only thing I am particularly frustrated with is my own involvement in one of "those threads" on revleft that happen every couple of months about the same topics. (black bloc, kronstadt, stalin vs trotsky, anarchy vs lenin, anarchist sabotage, the purges, etc)

Well, like have been saying at the beginning and throughout this thread, this was supposed to be about what Boots Riley had to say on the subject. A different voice and/or take. Nothing more. If you want to play those silly games that always trash a thread than by all means do so. Just don't cry about it when it happens.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

If you work at McDonalds and don't want to see its windows smashed you're probably not a communist.Yeah I'm probably not a communist because I don't want to pick up after your counter-productive mess.


Disruption of capital is one of my main goals as a militant of the class, I would prefer that this happens in the most efficient way possible (maximum damage to capital, least ammount of collateral damage, even lesser risk of being caught), the black bloc offers one method, so I accept it, small group/solo actions under the cover of night are another method, and I accept them as well. Civil disobedience is a method, but it has a high risk (almost garuntee) of being caught, so I reject it as tactically unsound. Permitted marches and rallies though safe, are ineffective at disrupting capital, so I reject them as tactically unsound.
Haha disruption of capital is one of your main goals. Dude, Europe recovered after two world wars, I think capitalism will get over your "disruption". You're not even a flea on a dog, get over yourself.

I have practically nothing in common with many of you, politically. There isn't even a reason for me to argue this with you, as far as I am concerned, we're not even on the same team.
I hoped not because you're a real asshole.

[Os Cangaceiros]

i mean, i have to say other than one person on another forum we both post on, who expressed a mutual hatred of ian bone, i've heard nothing but good stuff about him as a person, and he does seem like a proper gent. plus i've seen him talk a few times after demos or whatever and yeah, he seems like a good chap.

but yeah, 'class war' actions basically amount to marching round wealthy neighbourhoods with signs saying 'hang the rich', going to private schools and mocking the kids, haranguing yuppies. i mean, all of it is pretty funny and i'm not against it per se, i just don't think it advances is class struggle anymore than taking an extra long break on the job does.

Oh no, I don't dislike Ian Bone, I'm actually not really familiar with him at all, could be a really nice guy. It's just that all of the "propaganda" and slogansI've seen from CW just makes me smirk and think, "well, that's dumb." Some of the stuff just seems dumb. And proud to be dumb. Boneheaded.

Like when I looked at the back of the "We are an image of the future" book and saw a quote from Bone saying that it's "just what Dr. Fucking Anarchy ordered". I mentally said to myself, lol bonehead.

[ed miliband]

Oh no, I don't dislike Ian Bone, I'm actually not really familiar with him at all, could be a really nice guy. It's just that all of the "propaganda" and slogansI've seen from CW just makes me smirk and think, "well, that's dumb." Some of the stuff just seems dumb. And proud to be dumb. Boneheaded.

Like when I looked at the back of the "We are an image of the future" book and saw a quote from Bone saying that it's "just what Dr. Fucking Anarchy ordered". I mentally said to myself, lol bonehead.

haha, yeah, i have that book (got it as an x-mas gift), but i only looked at the blurb last week -- and christ, did i cringe reading that...

i mean, the basis of 'class war' was, i think, to be dumb... they wanted to create a communist (they didnt consider themselves anarchist) tabloid which would be read be read by "the working class" (in a sociological sense, i believe... which i'm sceptical of). it's not meant to be serious stuff -- tho apparently they had a theoretical paper called 'the heavy stuff'.

[Prometeo liberado]

I hoped not because you're a real asshole.

Totally uncalled for. Seeing as your moniker states that you are a "Tool" then I assume you can't help it.(that's how it's done)

Edit: Can we put this thread down now?

[Ele'ill]

Yes indeed it did feel very good, I was on top of the world, one of the greatest days of my life. But then you get down from your high and realize it's just that. And the best part was not watching people get away with random petty crimes but was when all the people, bb included, linked arms and made the cops back up all the way down the street. That was awesome, that was inspiring. People were throwing stuff at the cops while they were trying to arrest people, I have no problem with that whatsoever. But then you get to random property destruction and it's alienating to about 90% of the people in the demonstration who aren't in the bb. You get home and all people remember is that a window got broken and you can't get people to look past that. I talk to people and they understand why someone would try and de-arrest someone, why someone would throw something at police, sometimes even think it's alright to vandalize a bank considering how badly they fucked up. But a random car? "You guys are dicks, why would you even do that?" Even if that someone is rich, it don't matter. After hearing that a thousand times I started thinking it might have felt good just watching someone do that, but this obviously isn't how we're going to build a movement. But you can't even discuss how maybe people shouldn't break windows at random it seems. There is a time and a place for everything, I don't think America is there yet.

so glassing cops with the bb is ok but broken windows isn't how about instead of organizing pro property dogma and coddling people's misconceptions we discuss the issue of property destruction from an actual radical point of view (it seems from this post that you're disagreeing now with those opposed to property destruction but understand that they are alienated and that it could be a problem) with people so they understand why it isn't really an issue which is kind of important at some point anyways because the goal of organizing as a radical if you're down with movement building isn't to support the democratic party and rally for a bit every time there's slaughter on the wind

[No_Leaders]

Yes indeed it did feel very good, I was on top of the world, one of the greatest days of my life. But then you get down from your high and realize it's just that. And the best part was not watching people get away with random petty crimes but was when all the people, bb included, linked arms and made the cops back up all the way down the street. That was awesome, that was inspiring. People were throwing stuff at the cops while they were trying to arrest people, I have no problem with that whatsoever. But then you get to random property destruction and it's alienating to about 90% of the people in the demonstration who aren't in the bb. You get home and all people remember is that a window got broken and you can't get people to look past that. I talk to people and they understand why someone would try and de-arrest someone, why someone would throw something at police, sometimes even think it's alright to vandalize a bank considering how badly they fucked up. But a random car? "You guys are dicks, why would you even do that?" Even if that someone is rich, it don't matter. After hearing that a thousand times I started thinking it might have felt good just watching someone do that, but this obviously isn't how we're going to build a movement. But you can't even discuss how maybe people shouldn't break windows at random it seems. There is a time and a place for everything, I don't think America is there yet. I see your point there, unfortunately there are a lot of things I think that alienate people, especially if they can't grasp their reasoning behind the ideas of anarchism/marxism etc. An act of defiance against the banks, the bosses, the cops, the rich, a lot of people look at these things and say "oh there goes the loony left again" like we're a bunch of obamanauts or something. Those types of people their views on our actions will never change, unless one day they come to their senses and see reality of living in a capitalist society for what it truly is. Somehow i doubt that will happen though. I do agree there is a time for such tactics and there is a time when sometimes the best action is just showing support and solidarity i.e. with striking workers for example. I do agree with you that i don't see the United States as being ready for say something like we see in Greece, or Spain, for example. People are fighting in the streets on a regular basis, fighting for survival, I think here in the U.S. people don't feel like they're fighting to survive, they don't feel that urgency of taking a stand, at least not to that extent. Once the upper class shoves austerity down our throats i think you will see more militancy, and more acceptance for direct action, as of yet the climate is too passive. Sorry if my thoughts are kind of unconnected, i'm rambling and at work now haha.

[The Douche]

Well, like have been saying at the beginning and throughout this thread, this was supposed to be about what Boots Riley had to say on the subject. A different voice and/or take. Nothing more. If you want to play those silly games that always trash a thread than by all means do so. Just don't cry about it when it happens.

And like I said, Boots' comments are not original, and neither are anybody else's. His is not a "different voice".


Yeah I'm probably not a communist because I don't want to pick up after your counter-productive mess.

You are upset about broken McDonalds windows. You, and the McDonalds manager are the only ones who care.


Haha disruption of capital is one of your main goals. Dude, Europe recovered after two world wars, I think capitalism will get over your "disruption". You're not even a flea on a dog, get over yourself.

Hey dipshit, you're the one talking about mass movements and getting people on your side, talk about a flea on a dog. I'm not saying broken windows hurt capital, I'm saying hundreds of people in the street confronting the police and destroying private property does disrupt capital, and it discourages new investors from setting up shop (since they don't want mother fuckers attacking their shit all the time).

Until the class starts shaking and moving as a class, disruption of capital is the most we can do as militants, not necessarily what we are doing. So there is no need to put words in my mouth or make assumptions.


I hoped not because you're a real asshole.

Glad we're on the same page about something.





I'd just like to point out that all of this condemnation and moralising regarding property destruction comes at the same time that our comrades are being taken to prison for refusing to snitch in regards to property destruction. I can't say I would expect many of the posters in this thread to keep it real like Leah did:


My convictions are unwavering and will not be shaken by their harassment. Today is October 10th, 2012 and I am ready to go to prison.http://anarchistnews.org/content/we-are-made-star-stuff-statement-leah-lynn-plante


So you'll have to understand my frustration, while you all mourn some windows, I'm thinking about how people are going to prison.

[Ismail]

If you break the windows of McDonalds you will still have McDonalds and will not in any way have removed the reasons it's there (i.e. profit) nor the psychology of those who go there.

It's like burning a Church: that will annoy priests, bishops, etc., but it will also greatly annoy the mass of persons who are actually religious. The former will then rally the latter to denounce leftism and get the Church rebuilt.

[Ele'ill]

does 'settle up' mean you're going to play some board game or something

[The Douche]

If you break the windows of McDonalds you will still have McDonalds and will not in any way have removed the reasons it's there (i.e. profit) nor the psychology of those who go there.

It's like burning a Church: that will annoy priests, bishops, etc., but it will also greatly annoy the mass of persons who are actually religious. The former will then rally the latter to denounce leftism and get the Church rebuilt.

If businesses do not feel certain areas are safe, they will not open up in that area. Hence, disruption of capital.

[The Douche]

does 'settle up' mean you're going to play some board game or something

Edited it cause I got a little to real, haha.

[Ismail]

If businesses do not feel certain areas are safe, they will not open up in that area. Hence, disruption of capital.Then the police will be sent in to deal with the "hooligans." Disruption of leftists.

[The Douche]

Then the police will be sent in to deal with the "hooligans." Disruption of leftists.

I hope leftists do get disrupted...

[Ismail]

I hope leftists do get disrupted...I'm pretty sure every informant and provocateur would feel the same way.

"How about we organize people?"
"NO, BREAK WINDOWS."
"... what will that do?"
"DISRUPT CAPITAL."
*Breaks windows*
*Policeman arrests him*
*gets mentioned in next day's newspaper as "that guy who broke the windows at McD's yesterday"*
*Proletariat gains revolutionary consciousness, overthrows capitalism and abolishes the state*
*Burger King sets up shop across the road*

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why is Burger King setting up shop after capitalism has been overthrown?

[Ismail]

Why is Burger King setting up shop after capitalism has been overthrown?Because people want burgers and McDonalds had its walls dented and its windows smashed by the Black Bloc Brigade. Consumers looked instead to Burger King, with its superior food and safer interior.

Also the whole "proletariat overthrows capitalism" part was a joke, that wouldn't actually happen.

[Prometeo liberado]

Also the whole "proletariat overthrows capitalism" part was a joke, that wouldn't actually happen.
But Boots and I still get burgers right?:confused:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I disagree, I choose to take it as proof that Marxism-Leninism is a bankrupt ideology since in your conception of communism apparently still has capitalist burger chains competing amongst one another. Adieu sir.

[Ismail]

I choose to take it as proof that Marxism-Leninism is a bankrupt ideology since in your conception of communism apparently still has capitalist burger chains competing amongst one another.We can see in the historical experience of Socialist Albania under Enver Hoxha that fast food had no place in society. (USSR under Lenin and Stalin are disqualified since fast food didn't exist at the time)

[Prometeo liberado]

I disagree, I choose to take it as proof that Marxism-Leninism is a bankrupt ideology since in your conception of communism apparently still has capitalist burger chains competing amongst one another. Adieu sir.

So what your saying is, Boots and I are shit out of luck as far as taking care of our burger fix.:thumbdown:

[Ele'ill]

There are plenty of black bloc type threads with this same discussion. I think the video of the response to black bloc criticism is pretty ok cause it talks about a specific event and a lot of the stuff talked about in this thread is covered there. I'm going to leave this thread open since It has only been open barely a day and users new to the thread might want to post and A Revolutionary Tool is responding right now to it I think so yeah cut the silly stuff for a minute and get back to discussion.

[Let's Get Free]

I think we need new forms of demonstrations. I'm really tired of the boring same-old march from point A to point B. And the Black Bloc "drama" of revolutionary "violence" (if you call a group of adventurist 20 somethings getting an adrenaline rush by causing petty property damage "violence") doesn't seem to be taking us anywhere.

[Prometeo liberado]

There are plenty of black bloc type threads with this same discussion. I think the video of the response to black bloc criticism is pretty ok cause it talks about a specific event and a lot of the stuff talked about in this thread is covered there. I'm going to leave this thread open since It has only been open barely a day and users new to the thread might want to post and A Revolutionary Tool is responding right now to it I think so yeah cut the silly stuff for a minute and get back to discussion.

My chief concern is that the reason for the post has been lost. This has gone from Boots' analysis of BB to the pissing war and old arguments to the relevance of fast food joints in post-capitalist society. But if you wanna run with this than by all means lets do it. An entire thread brought to you by McDonald's.

[The Douche]

My chief concern is that the reason for the post has been lost. This has gone from Boots' analysis of BB to the pissing war and old arguments to the relevance of fast food joints in post-capitalist society. But if you wanna run with this than by all means lets do it. An entire thread brought to you by McDonald's.

You keep saying that. In what way were Boots' comments different from every other "critique" of the BB ever?

[Prometeo liberado]

You keep saying that. In what way were Boots' comments different from every other "critique" of the BB ever?

Now we may be getting back on track. I was hoping, and may have missed, a certain line from B.R. in which he states his reasoning on this issue:


scientifically it means the tactic is not working

Without expanding, much, on this statement are we to believe that B.R. is throwing down the gauntlet as far as the science of revolutionary tactics is concerned? I doubt it. His statements, IMO, reek of self-importance and arrogance and betray the frustration that many have always felt in regards to expanding the movement. Here he merely uses BB as the scapegoat de jour. And gives as his reasoning this very vague and disingenuous letter.

[o well this is ok I guess]

So what your saying is, Boots and I are shit out of luck as far as taking care of our burger fix.:thumbdown: Yo man no one's collectivizing all barbecues. You could probably whip up better hamburgers than McD's

[Ele'ill]

My chief concern is that the reason for the post has been lost. This has gone from Boots' analysis of BB to the pissing war and old arguments to the relevance of fast food joints in post-capitalist society. But if you wanna run with this than by all means lets do it. An entire thread brought to you by McDonald's.


I personally don't find Boot's comments any different than what's been the ongoing bb/tactics discussion (some people do I think) so it's not really off topic it's just really boring to talk about. I find his and most accounts of specific situations to be wrong.. It's just not an accurate account of what happened or it's filled with really dumb comments like 'the people in the club came out and they basically know everyone in oakland and they were mad so yeah the bb is wrong'.

[Prometeo liberado]

I personally don't find Boot's comments any different than what's been the ongoing bb/tactics discussion (some people do I think) so it's not really off topic it's just really boring to talk about. I find his and most accounts of specific situations to be wrong.. It's just not an accurate account of what happened or it's filled with really dumb comments like 'the people in the club came out and they basically know everyone in oakland and they were mad so yeah the bb is wrong'.

I do agree with you but was concerned that none of that was being addressed. Hate the letter or like it, just don't dismiss it and go back to the same old, is BB right or wrong, bullshit. It went nowhere before and will do so again. I was merely hoping to spawn debate about BB as it pertains to what BR was saying. And as the letter in question is very shallow, as I stated before, I half expected BR to get a good thrashing here. Instead this thread turned into a nick jr. version of gladiator. "Your an asshole" "I'll deal with you later"...blah blah blah. This issue is soooo relevant and important to the movement in the States that I think it deserves much, much more discussion. Discussion, not stories of how you don't want to clean up after people in the RESTAURANT you work in.


I may start drinking again.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You are upset about broken McDonalds windows. You, and the McDonalds manager are the only ones who care.
I'm not upset over a broken window, I don't hold sentimental value for the windows at work. It's the fact that insurrectionists keep doing it and can't even take criticism that it can be counter-productive. They want to include themselves in a broader political movement whilst having no accountability for any of their actions whatsoever and then when people in the same movement say they don't want the movement to be known for doing stuff like breaking random people's car windows their heads blow up and they cry that people don't wish to be associated with that stuff, cry diversity of tactics, and keep doing what they do. If circumstances were different I wouldn't care that my place of work got it's window broken. But for the average person who is not class conscious, breaking the window at the McDonalds is just an annoyance. More chaos in an already chaotic place.



Hey dipshit, you're the one talking about mass movements and getting people on your side, talk about a flea on a dog.Yes I know I am, hence what I said about the American left being minuscule. The thing is I know it and want to change it while you're over here being Mr. Tough Guy talking about how you and your little band of friends are going to disrupt capital in the dead of night.


I'm not saying broken windows hurt capital, I'm saying hundreds of people in the street confronting the police and destroying private property does disrupt capital, and it discourages new investors from setting up shop (since they don't want mother fuckers attacking their shit all the time).lol the windows at McDonalds were repaired within an hour or two, when was the last time that even worked? And what do you propose to build instead of what investors would? Because you know as well as I do that the capitalists are the ones that invest to create jobs. Yeah it's a vicious circle, I know, they got the working class by the balls. I mean it's really cool that you're going to show those investors that the workers in Oakland aren't going to take their shit but what is going to be put in place to replace them?





I'd just like to point out that all of this condemnation and moralising regarding property destruction comes at the same time that our comrades are being taken to prison for refusing to snitch in regards to property destruction. I can't say I would expect many of the posters in this thread to keep it real like Leah did:

http://anarchistnews.org/content/we-are-made-star-stuff-statement-leah-lynn-plante


So you'll have to understand my frustration, while you all mourn some windows, I'm thinking about how people are going to prison.
It's called multi-tasking learn how to do it, you're not the only person thinking about people going to prison.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I'm not an expert on Boots Riley. As I understand he is, or was, in the PL. They are an odd group but Boots has been saying all the right things.

It may very well be that BR bringing up the black bloc issue seemingly out of the blue may reflect frustration at the fact that movement has dissipated since last year.He seems to be indirectly blaming black bloc antics for this.He is probably right.

Don't start drinking just yet though. If you do, get a bottle of Stoli, mix it with coke. It'll be the official drink of the United American Socialist Republics.

[Prometeo liberado]

I'm not an expert on Boots Riley. As I understand he is, or was, in the PL. They are an odd group but Boots has been saying all the right things.

It may very well be that BR bringing up the black bloc issue seemingly out of the blue may reflect frustration at the fact that movement has dissipated since last year.He seems to be indirectly blaming black bloc antics for this.He is probably right.

Don't start drinking just yet though. If you do, get a bottle of Stoli, mix it with coke. It'll be the official drink of the United American Socialist Republics.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer as it pertains to his reasoning. Yes his reasons are based on "the people I talked to" and other nonsense like that. And when you are looking for answers as to why the movement is stalled the answers are never as black and white as may seem. BB didn't create the current movement, and if BB is responsible for its malaise then the movement should never have gone beyond a theoretical phase. Yet it has and will progress in stronger way having shed itself from the dead weight of those who didn't like the idea of some activist being active. All I have to say for those who want to talk endlessly and accomplish next to nothing is go join Solidarity. I hear they serve free coffee at their meetings.

[Os Cangaceiros]

lol the windows at McDonalds were repaired within an hour or two, when was the last time that even worked?

One could construct a pretty good argument, based on some things I've read, that this tactic worked to desegregate Southern cities during the 60's and 70's. Investors were wary of putting money into cities full of hate and violence.

Granted, that's not the downfall of capitalism, but it could be argued that it was at least a progressive political goal that was accomplished. I'm not sure if what cmoney's talking about has an ultimate goal, though...based on what he's posted, it's certainly not gaining more recruits!

[A Revolutionary Tool]

so glassing cops with the bb is ok but broken windows isn't how about instead of organizing pro property dogma and coddling people's misconceptions we discuss the issue of property destruction from an actual radical point of view (it seems from this post that you're disagreeing now with those opposed to property destruction but understand that they are alienated and that it could be a problem) with people so they understand why it isn't really an issue which is kind of important at some point anyways because the goal of organizing as a radical if you're down with movement building isn't to support the democratic party and rally for a bit every time there's slaughter on the wind

You make a good point here, maybe I should be better at justifying property destruction(let's get it straight that I've never publicly berated any bb member for taking a window out, I always defend it. It's just that it's annoying that it seems to come up everytime discussions lead to occupy protests and that leads to random property destruction). But Americans, so god-damned brainwashed -__-

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I certainly don't think the bb led to the dissipitation of OO but I don't think it helped it much either. Police repression certainly had more of a hand in it than bb but there were people who didn't like getting involved knowing there would be a bb because they knew by the end of the night there would be police repression. Of course those weren't the only problems the occupy movement had, but no movement will be perfect.

[Prometeo liberado]

You make a good point here, maybe I should be better at justifying property destruction(let's get it straight that I've never publicly berated any bb member for taking a window out, I always defend it. It's just that it's annoying that it seems to come up everytime discussions lead to occupy protests and that leads to random property destruction). But Americans, so god-damned brainwashed -__-

Your turning a corner here. You hit it right on the head when you spoke of Americans being brainwashed. Our perception is our programming. And everyone is programmed whether we choose to believe it or not. When we recognize that we are hard wired to protect our masters than we can finally work effectively to stop protecting our masters. What upsets us, upsets us for a reason. And these reasons may not be for our protection, but for others. If BB touches a nerve and turns people off maybe that's because they refuse to be programmed anymore and are attacking the social order that our master have programmed for us.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

One could construct a pretty good argument, based on some things I've read, that this tactic worked to desegregate Southern cities during the 60's and 70's. Investors were wary of putting money into cities full of hate and violence.

Granted, that's not the downfall of capitalism, but it could be argued that it was at least a progressive political goal that was accomplished. I'm not sure if what cmoney's talking about has an ultimate goal, though...based on what he's posted, it's certainly not gaining more recruits!

Really? But that's desegregation, not destroying capitalism. If there's enough shit going on because of segregation it might cause people to fold under pressure of investors leaving but what happens when there's property destruction in the name of anti-capitalism? The city folds under pressure and...

[Ele'ill]

but there were people who didn't like getting involved knowing there would be a bb because they knew by the end of the night there would be police repression.

people often times allowed other people to act for them and were unhappy and disappointed and they see speakers, or facilitators or direct action or whatever as being their only means of expressing an opinion or acting for them and there were a lot of times where at the GA's the facilitators would have to tell people to stop talking through them and start participating on their own. It isn't the BB or nothing it's the bb and whatever else you want to do and this even happens within blocs and even the bigger picture where people in favor of using militant direct action are the same ones facilitating discussion and organizing their work place and that's kind of the whole point.

The police would be there anyways and they would be repressive because that's what they do, that's why there's no evil bb right now downtown but reoccupation attempts of the federal plaza were stopped again by DHS agents

[Ravachol]

I'm pretty sure every informant and provocateur would feel the same way.

I love how this always comes from internet Stalinists who haven't had to deal with actual informers since the late '50s.:rolleyes:

[Manic Impressive]

Yeah I'm probably not a communist because I don't want to pick up after your counter-productive mess.
Oh no you would have to sweep up broken glass rather than cleaning the oven or fliping a burger. The two actions are the same if you are a MacDonald's employee you are getting paid by the hour not for how much work you do. There is no extra work for you there is just less of one part of the work you have to do that day while you spend time doing something different. It does not increase the amount of work you have to do in a day.

[Paulappaul]

Last night in Portland there was a black bloc that went around a rather middle class yuppish neighborhood where I live and busted up 4 banks and a Walgreens window. I didn't get the chance to attend because I was at work and got off just as the shitfest was over.

I did do a survey of the damage and talked to some employees at the Walgreens. Interestingly enough, the workers (who were by majority, African American/Latino) at walgreens didn't care at all. One employee told me explicitly "yeah it was whatever, it just scared some of the customers cause they thought it was gun shots". The general sentiment was that it didn't effect them, and this was an issue with management. Literally everyone in the store was going about there business as if nothing was wrong (tho the broken window let some of the cold air in, got a little chilly tho).

This doesn't prove Black Bloc is a good thing, it suggests that "Revolutionary tool" is really just being a tool. Of course its just one instance, but from my conversation with employees it didn't turn anyone off from the revolutionary project, or conversely turn anyone on. It didn't make anyone in the store riot or cause generalized "insurrection". Here's my take on Black Bloc, it's as boring as every other march.

But at least we get to smashy smash.

[#FF0000]

The only thing that alienates people is fucking up their cars.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

My thoughts: let's conflate the silly action(s) of some youths and activists with BB and the praxis thereof, to create a steaming pile of shit, signifying nothing other than idiocy and liberalism. Such a shitty argument, this is getting ridiculous.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Your turning a corner here. You hit it right on the head when you spoke of Americans being brainwashed. Our perception is our programming. And everyone is programmed whether we choose to believe it or not. When we recognize that we are hard wired to protect our masters than we can finally work effectively to stop protecting our masters. What upsets us, upsets us for a reason. And these reasons may not be for our protection, but for others. If BB touches a nerve and turns people off maybe that's because they refuse to be programmed anymore and are attacking the social order that our master have programmed for us.

Let's take your "programming" argument for granted, because it's a good framework with which to understand the problem with these kinds of tactics. When most of the population is "programmed" to believe something about the sanctity of property, you're not going to *change* that program by destroying property in all but a few people who only needed to see a little destruction to let out their repressed inner revolutionary. Most people will be turned off by it precisely because of the fact that they are "pre-programmed" to read the situation in that light. It seems that such aggressive tactics are jumping the gun by damaging property before doing the necessary groundwork of helping a larger swathe of the working class drop this "programming" in favor of real political consciousness. Note that I am not exactly unsympathetic to some of the property damage in Oakland to private enterprise, but I can see the value in a serious and well thought out critique of such tactics in the particular conditions that the USA is in right now.

Attacks on personal property are generally going to produce even more negative results than attacks on economic property in the hands of private enterprise, not only for reasons of false consciousness or "programming" but for the very real impact on the life of an everyday civilian/worker. While as a tactic it can work to target specific individuals, generally speaking it is politically stupid and socially harmful to target the personal property of the general populace, especially when there is not some great potential revolution just around the corner, without a very good and very specific tactical benefit in mind. In that case, you are destroying their property *and* leaving them to spend their limited exchange value received for their labor power to fix the damage, aside from completely overlooking any personal sentimental value they may have towards the object. If you trash the Benz owned by a shady McDonalds manager, that's one thing, but overturning or smashing windows on any old vehicle you see on the road is beyond counterproductive. Who owned the car? What do they do with it? How might they need it? And how would such damage progress any kind of *real* revolutionary objective??? Or do such questions not matter to "real" revolutionaries?

[Prometeo liberado]

I understand what your getting at SCM, but the larger point I guess that I am trying to make is why some react the way they do when groups act the way BB acts. BB is made up of people who are disconnected from the emotional reaction that many others can not help but feel. Should they wait for the moment of critical mass before engaging the way they do? That would be to expect them to act in defiance of who and what they are. Like 'em or hate 'em they just aren't going to be held by the same standards or reasoning as most because they do not reason or recognize those standards. Standards and reasoning that they feel is a hindrance to their defensive tactics. You are correct in that trashing someones personal property may make that person upset, but is not the path to real change going to filled with episodes such as this?

[Ocean Seal]

What I don't understand is why you would fuck up some poor mofos car when there are police cars and starbucks windows to fuck up? Seriously pple.

[Prometeo liberado]

What I don't understand is why you would fuck up some poor mofos car when there are police cars and starbucks windows to fuck up? Seriously pple.

You are so correct. BB has a little meeting before they get going in which they say a prayer(methodist) and go over the credit reports of the owners of the various cars that may be sacked that night. Then they look at the number of cop cars and bring to a vote on which cars to sack. Lo and behold they always pick the poor persons car over the cop cars! I can't understand it!

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Hey man I don't think you should be talking about the quarterly risk management meetings on a public forum.

[Prometeo liberado]

Hey man I don't think you should be talking about the quarterly risk management meetings on a public forum.

It's always the goddamn actuarial tables with these people! What are you gonna do?

[Prometeo liberado]

What I don't understand is why you would fuck up some poor mofos car when there are police cars and starbucks windows to fuck up? Seriously pple.

I was just thinking about this and have come to the only conclusion I could. We are all intertwined with capitalism. Like it or not it is very much part of us. I would say that it is not so much a matter of destruction as it is the idea that we identify with what is being destroyed. A piece of our capitalism. And as we are all supposed to be against the system we need to be prepared to give to Ceaser what is Ceasers and hold dear to what is ours, namely our future.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What I don't understand is why you would fuck up some poor mofos car when there are police cars and starbucks windows to fuck up? Seriously pple.

What I don't understand is petty vandalism. Sure, it's emotionally gratifying however I'd be more set with something that can actually effect those fuckholes, like sabotage, cutting wires, and the like. Though a cop car would be 1.000 times better than Joe Average's whip.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Any punk can vandalize Joe Average's car, but it takes real cojones to fuck up a police car.

[Ele'ill]

I can think of several good or understandable reasons as to why an average car would get fucked up during a militant march. It isn't as if there are affinity groups hunting and destroying average cars specifically so I'm not sure why all the emphasis is on this topic seriously stop it.

[Paulappaul]

This kinda fits into the frame of the discussion..

If the average person is driving a gas guzzling hummer, frankly I am not sure if I should care if its smashed. It's not like its environmentally friendly or economically wise considering their class position. We run into the same argument when we are considering if its okay for environmental activists to spike trees that hurt the working class with the potentiality of death. And if you say well they are just "doing their job", aren't cops or soldiers just "doing their job" too yet particularly with the former of the two we don't grant them immunity for their deeds? While yes the working class is the revolutionary agent, they aren't divine.

In other newss...

more on the BB in Portland


The Story, Last Night, Wasn't the Broken Windows
by Jess E. Hadden

Yesterday afternoon, via Facebook, I heard about a solidarity march, being organized by an autonomous group. The reason: Leah from the Red & Black Cafe was being imprisoned for refusing to testify before a Grand Jury. I didn't personally know Leah, but philosophically I supported the stand she was taking against the Federal government's witch-hunt, targeting activists.

So, I hit "share," passing the invitation along.

I observed the march as it approached SE Hawthorne Blvd, via 35th Ave. Since I did not recognize the people in the march (it's hard to recognize a black bloc, especially at night, without my glasses) -- and since I myself wear very bright colors -- I decided to watch while maintaining a distance. Technical difficulties prevented me from livestreaming, but I still wanted to be able to report the real story.

As the marchers took the east-bound lanes of Hawthorne, I watched a growing crowd of curious people, in regular attire, following the march along the sidewalk, and inquiring about this unexpected sight.

Then, I heard, rather than saw, the sound of glass shattering. Immediately, the disastrous anti-police brutality march of last February 6th came to mind, when Occupy Portland and an autonomous group mixed like oil & water. I expected to see marchers, locals, and lookie-loos arguing and fighting with one another over tactics, and the definition of "violence."

But that's not what I saw. I saw the windows of Umpqua Bank -- a bank that tries to present a local image, but really isn't -- smashed. And to my astonishment, I saw regular people, watching from sidewalks & bars, cheering. I found myself no longer observing the march, so much as I was observing the people observing the march.

Smash. Wells Fargo. Smash. Chase Bank. Smash. US Bank. Cheers, each time, from regular people, watching. As I passed the tables outside of the Hawthorne Theater, across the street from the Chase Bank at SE Caesar Chavez & Hawthorne, I heard people laughing and talking about how much they hated that bank. One man stood up and yelled, "Yeah! Smash that up!"

The Walgreens, at Caesar Chavez Blvd. & Belmont, appeared to be the last target, before I lost sight of the march. I heard sirens in the distance, but as far as I could tell, the march had already dispersed, almost as quickly as it had begun.

Contrasted with the march from last February 6th, there was a noticeable lack of contention about the targets of this black bloc. The only contention that appeared to exist was in regard to some marchers dragging items like recycling bins & newspaper dispensers into the streets -- ostensibly, to block traffic and slow a police response. Other people, not necessarily marchers themselves, quickly removed the items from the streets. The point ultimately was moot; police vehicles came from multiple directions, and were remarkably slow to arrive.

Local corporate media and Portland Police later reported that the marchers were also attacking passers-by with glass bottles. This is, in fact, not true.

To me, the story really wasn't about the smashed windows. I headed back to Hawthorne, to put my ear to the ground.

People were still buzzing about what had just happened. Absent, was a sense of anger regarding the vandalism. It is curious, how astonishing the absence of something can be. Inner SE Portland is, after all, a sleepy urban community.

I stopped in at Nick's Coney Island for a drink. Police arrived, and questioned the bartender. I asked her what that was all about, to which she replied, "Some protesters took one of our chairs and threw it through the Wells Fargo window."

Before I could stop myself, I blurted out, "That's awesome."

She leaned in, smiling, and replied, "I know! Fuck Wells Fargo."

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

bite me.
Well, killing a person over a possesion is pretty lame. What do you do about the surplus value thats extracted from you on a daily basis? :blushing:

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I was just thinking about this and have come to the only conclusion I could. We are all intertwined with capitalism. Like it or not it is very much part of us. I would say that it is not so much a matter of destruction as it is the idea that we identify with what is being destroyed. A piece of our capitalism. And as we are all supposed to be against the system we need to be prepared to give to Ceaser what is Ceasers and hold dear to what is ours, namely our future.
That's all well and good to say that revolutionaries should be willing to give up their bit of capitalism but not everyone is a revolutionary or identifies as such. Most people are very much unknowing slaves to the ruling ideology so when revolutionaries cry "look, I smashed your chains!" they say back "no, you smashed my car!".

I don't really know what I can add to the dialogue here because in a way I very much support most BB actions and really don't give a shit when some bank is smashed up. It's just that the people who need to go to that bank the next day are not going to be as forgiving because, as you said, we identify with what is being destroyed but maybe not because it gives some sort of gratification but because it cements inclusion. To not have a car or to not have a house or bank account is to be alienated from a system that is very good at alienating. So instead of thinking about how much they rely on these bourgeois systems they think "fuck those guys who stopped me from shopping".

'Educate, Organise, Agitate' should not be 'Agitate, Agitate, Agitate' but in these situations, with an all encompassing bourgeois media, I'm not sure how BBers could change this situation except maybe have a guy on a bullhorn following them about saying "we are smashing up this bank because fuck capital! you are welcome to join us!" lol.

[Ocean Seal]

You are so correct. BB has a little meeting before they get going in which they say a prayer(methodist) and go over the credit reports of the owners of the various cars that may be sacked that night. Then they look at the number of cop cars and bring to a vote on which cars to sack. Lo and behold they always pick the poor persons car over the cop cars! I can't understand it!
I don't mean that the person needs to be poor, but honestly, I can't see why you would fuck up anyone's car. I mean shit, it doesn't seem like anything more than just for the sheer fun of it. Why not just go for business windows, or cop cars. I'm sure there have to be more than a few.

[officer nugz]

Wow thats fucking pathetic. I remember this interview from a Trotskyist who woke up in the morning in May in 1968 in France to find his car was tipped over and on fire or something, along with all the other cars on his block. He didn't have any remorse in the least, he was psyched that the revolution was in the air that people were angry. Plus he didn't have to go to work.I actually want to clarify my response to this a bit further than "bite me". Do you think this situation you presented is remotely similar to a bunch of activists hiding behind their politics to destroy workers, and potentially my own (if I had one), car? no. it's clearly not.

[Paulappaul]

Do you think this situation you presented is remotely similar to a bunch of activists hiding behind their politics to destroy workers, and potentially my own (if I had one), car? no. it's clearly not. Circumstance is different, the deed is exactly the same. Like I said, in the rare case someone at a demo overreacts and smashes a working class person's car then I think we should have funds to repair the damage. They do this in Greece you know, its not rocket science. But when the car is a hummer, or some fucking gas guzzler it doesn't make a world of a difference if the passenger is working class or not and when the car is obviously the property of someone who is bourgeois then yes I think its okay. I don't know if we can speak with 100% accuracy what happened in Oakland, but there are certainly circumstances where the destruction of cars are acceptable regardless if its May 68 or now. It doesn't detract from your well.. childish overreaction that your windshield could be broken because you know..

"killing a person over a possesion is pretty lame. What do you do about the surplus value thats extracted from you on a daily basis?"

[Paulappaul]

Just curious, did you put this up around oakland officer nugz?

https://www.indybay.org/uploads/2012/10/13/800_246579_848698265043_1227195043_n.jpg

[officer nugz]

Circumstance is different, the deed is exactly the same.but the circumstances are what determines if its acceptable. if a bunch of self declared anarchist activists run down my road smashing cars as part of a protest and smash my car, then fuck them. big time.


Like I said, in the rare case someone at a demo overreacts and smashes a working class person's car then I think we should have funds to repair the damage.this is an awful cop out of the situation. "I think we should have funds to repair the damage" are you kidding me? don't fucking smash it. and, uh, if you do, then sure. pay for it. but you won't and I know that because I'm not dumb.


But when the car is hummer, or some fucking gas guzzler it doesn't make a world of a difference if the passenger is a driver is working class or not and when the car is obviously the property of someone bourgeois then yes I think its okay.what?


I don't know if we can speak with 100% accuracy what happened in Oakland, but there are certainly circumstance where the destruction of cars are acceptable regardless if its May 68 or now. It doesn't detract from your well your childish overreaction that your windshield could be broken because you know..childish? pardon me for not being a spineless idiot that lets people break my car because they're hiding behind their politics that supposedly look out for people like me.

[Paulappaul]

I wrote that really fast, made some grammar edits.

[Ele'ill]

most of the cars that get fucked up are luxury vehicles in rich neighborhoods there is not a plague of random working 'guy' cars that get fucked up at every single action ever

[Paulappaul]

nuff said

[officer nugz]

most of the cars that get fucked up are luxury vehicles in rich neighborhoods there is not a plague of random working 'guy' cars that get fucked up at every single action everoh okay I accept this statement at face value as absolute truth

[officer nugz]

its great to hear because if my car got smashed I'd make sure that the hospital is pretty busy that day so it is definitely a relief

[Paulappaul]

okay tough guy, you can stop talking now. I get it, your manly muscles can put me in the hospital :rolleyes:

[Ele'ill]

its great to hear because if my car got smashed I'd make sure that the hospital is pretty busy that day so it is definitely a relief

wow look out a hypothetical tough guy :rolleyes:


Moving on away from this now..

[officer nugz]

I'd rather be a hypothetical tough guy then some asshole that thinks they can get away with whatever they want because of the politics

[officer nugz]

wow. this website absolutely sucks. you are all interested in enforcing the authority of your ideology without restraint on workers. such as myself. and expect people to be spineless in response! fuck your supposed revolutionary shit. all I have seen on this website is an obsession with social policing beyond the point that anybody who you all claim to look out for even wants and building up your own stupid activism even when it fucks with people. jesus. the absolute worst caricatures of activists. this sucks. I'm leaving.

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kellyohair/BloodyBat.jpg

see you all soon though!

[Ele'ill]

I'm just saying that you have to create some hypothetical scenario where you'll get to feel justified in violently attacking and maiming or killing another human being because they 'mess with ur things' rather than actually looking at the real situations, their frequency and the surrounding events. You're being silly and derailing the thread so please stop.

[Le Libérer]

wow. this website absolutely sucks. you are all interested in enforcing the authority of your ideology without restraint on workers. such as myself. and expect people to be spineless in response! fuck your supposed revolutionary shit. all I have seen on this website is an obsession with social policing beyond the point that anybody who you all claim to look out for even wants and building up your own stupid activism even when it fucks with people. jesus. the absolute worst caricatures of activists. this sucks. I'm leaving.


see you all soon though!

Wooooo he reallly was a tough guy! A pic of a bloody baseball bat.

Troll has been banned.

[black magick hustla]

I'm probably not going to read the thread, because I can guess what stupi deny the presence of black people in the bloc

something tells me there arent many black people in black blocs

[black magick hustla]

idk its a pretty white thing to do to smash car windows for no reason.

[Ele'ill]

nevermind, I actually thought you were going to add something to discussion lol

[#FF0000]

wow. this website absolutely sucks. you are all interested in enforcing the authority of your ideology without restraint on workers. such as myself. and expect people to be spineless in response! fuck your supposed revolutionary shit. all I have seen on this website is an obsession with social policing beyond the point that anybody who you all claim to look out for even wants and building up your own stupid activism even when it fucks with people. jesus. the absolute worst caricatures of activists. this sucks. I'm leaving.

'it's mostly luxury cars in rich neighborhoods getting fucked up'
'y do u guys smash workin ppls cars that is outrages!!!!!!!!!'

[Ele'ill]

something tells me there arent many black people in black blocs

I don't think this is a very accurate observation, maybe if you're looking at 'the black bloc' on national news covering some high profile event and just eating it up spoonful at a time. Something tells me a lot of people (not white people) have sought to use militant direct action in the form of riot or escalated tactics to defend themselves (against white people) for a very long time. Yes there are black people in black blocs.

[black magick hustla]

I don't think this is a very accurate observation, maybe if you're looking at 'the black bloc' on national news covering some high profile event and just eating it up spoonful at a time. Something tells me a lot of people (not white people) have sought to use militant direct action in the form of riot or escalated tactics to defend themselves (against white people) for a very long time. Yes there are black people in black blocs.

of course there are black people in blac blocs. what i claimed is that the vast mayority of them are white. and honestly, black bloc != militant ghetto riots, what the fuck lol. the guys in blac blocs are generally heavily ideological activists where property destruction is a premeditated extension of their shitty ideology. again, similar to the discussion of cops getting wasted by anarchists.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Boots was mad when we took over the Port and the next day tens of thousands of working people and their families didnt show up because of the fear of violent clashes with the police and the intimidating feeling one gets when property destruction is taking place. The first day of the Port shut down had school kids, we're talking 5 year old - 13 year old kids, elderly people, teachers, construction workers, students, militant activists etc. The second day, after the clashes with police, only the militant activists were there. Breaking shit pretty much turned off a HUGE part of the community that we were connecting with. Most workers arent at the same stage and wont understand the 'why's' behind property destruction. I'm of the opinion it was the wrong thing to do in Oakland the day of the Port shut down. We need a braod anti-capitalist movement and breaking shit wont build that movement.

[#FF0000]

Boots was mad when we took over the Port

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure he was all over it.

[Ele'ill]

of course there are black people in blac blocs. what i claimed is that the vast mayority of them are white. and honestly, black bloc != militant ghetto riots, what the fuck lol. the guys in blac blocs are generally heavily ideological activists where property destruction is a premeditated extension of their shitty ideology. again, similar to the discussion of cops getting wasted by anarchists.

what I'm saying is that your view of 'black bloc' is pretty much that of day time news and not what actually assembles during direct action within specific struggles

[Rugged Collectivist]

Wooooo he reallly was a tough guy! A pic of a bloody baseball bat.

Troll has been banned.

Please don't do this. He may have been a douche and he may have had a problem looking at property destruction in context but he certainly wasn't a troll. At most he's guilty of flaming.

I won't argue for him to be unbanned since he seemingly wanted to leave anyway, but I think it sets a bad precedent to accuse non trolls of trolling and it's something that isn't unique to this site.

[Ele'ill]

Please don't do this. He may have been a douche and he may have had a problem looking at property destruction in context but he certainly wasn't a troll. At most he's guilty of flaming.

I won't argue for him to be unbanned since he seemingly wanted to leave anyway, but I think it sets a bad precedent to accuse non trolls of trolling and it's something that isn't unique to this site.

this could be pm'd to the admin (or mod or whoever) instead of posted in the thread too, not a big deal or anything but oh god i'm so tired i can't even finish this sentence

[Jimmie Higgins]

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure he was all over it.I think they meant mad about the side-show adventurist stuff that happened that day. Boots was heavily involved in organizing for the first port shut-down.

[Ocean Seal]

what I'm saying is that your view of 'black bloc' is pretty much that of day time news and not what actually assembles during direct action within specific struggles
I'm pretty sure they are mostly white though, as black magic said, militant riots != ideological property destruction. A riot where people adopt the black bloc tactic is different from a march where people use that tactic because its part of their ideology.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And I still don't think those arguing with me have the slightest idea what I'm saying. So let me just reiterate that the property destruction aspect of it in and of itself is not what bothers me. What bothers me, what I'm saying I dislike, are the shitty politics being played here. I believe it's totally counter-productive. Random property accomplishes what again? Nobody wants to answer that question! Why not? Because you already know it's counter-productive, that it pushes people away, that it jumps the gun?

As a McDonald's employee I'm not going to be trippin' because it's a window broken, but because it's a window broken in the name of shitty politics that I'm going to have to clean up after, a little annoyance to add to the many annoyances throughout my day in the name of shitty politics(Politics which will directly affect me nonetheless). And yes it's because I view it as childish and I don't think I'm alone in this. Oh you're cool, you broke a window again(And the fact that it's just about every single time there is a march cheapens the "tactic" that much more. Then people are like, anarchists broke another window, who would have seen that coming, whatever) and totally didn't affect anything positively and just turned a lot of people away from joining in. Truthfully that's how I see this "tactic", it's like the kids that come in and decide to make pools of soda in the chairs. Well I'm not going to have a heart attack but you're not helping me out any. And what did you accomplish? Nothing except turning some people away.

I think that's the difference between the property destruction of a few people in a black bloc in a march in Oakland and, let's say, the property destruction of the longshoremen in Longview. Normal people look at the destruction of the black bloc and see a bunch of kids gone wild, it's not too serious, just kids doing dumb stuff, they'll get over it. These normal people don't want to show up because police repression is basically assured and they're left going "Wtf, we're just trying to march and these kids are going around breaking shit, stupid kids" as opposed to "Wtf, we're just marching and the police attacked us!" Yeah there's a huge difference there, whether it's right or wrong, do we really think there's much of a movement to make that argument? And politically the right will be foaming out of the fucking mouth over a stupid window. Longshoremen in Longview, now that's some serious shit right there...

[Prometeo liberado]

Boots was mad when we took over the Port and the next day tens of thousands of working people and their families didnt show up because of the fear of violent clashes with the police and the intimidating feeling one gets when property destruction is taking place. The first day of the Port shut down had school kids, we're talking 5 year old - 13 year old kids, elderly people, teachers, construction workers, students, militant activists etc. The second day, after the clashes with police, only the militant activists were there. Breaking shit pretty much turned off a HUGE part of the community that we were connecting with. Most workers arent at the same stage and wont understand the 'why's' behind property destruction. I'm of the opinion it was the wrong thing to do in Oakland the day of the Port shut down. We need a braod anti-capitalist movement and breaking shit wont build that movement.

So what is the issue here? People's old prejudices and inability to accept that maybe we are given no other alternatives or the impatient attitude of youth who may know all to well the forces that are stacked against them?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

So what is the issue here? People's old prejudices and inability to accept that maybe we are given no other alternatives or the impatient attitude of youth who may know all to well the forces that are stacked against them?
And what is breaking some glass going to do for anybody? The world is stacked against us, must...break...car window!

[#FF0000]

Nobody wants to answer that question! Why not? Because you already know it's counter-productive, that it pushes people away, that it jumps the gun?

I don't think it pushes people away at all.

[Prometeo liberado]

And what is breaking some glass going to do for anybody? The world is stacked against us, must...break...car window!

And as I've said again and again, this seems to be more of an issue with people's connection to what is being destroyed rather than an understanding of the fact that BB is not trying "to do" anything other than react from a defensive posture. This is a new type of war, and they call it AUSTERITY. Shall we hand out more useless papers at the local uni? Another workshop on socialism? Another International? How 'bout we form a Party? Like it or not BB will do what it wishes and yes it will bring heat from the pigs. It will do so regardless of what the next plenary session agrees upon.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I don't think it pushes people away at all.
You know how many times while at OO while in full BB attire I was asked to remove my "mask"? I sat there and had an argument with a lady for about 10 minutes when she told me she hates coming to "these things" because BB people were there. I got screamed at to not break any windows, etc, even though I hadn't even thought about doing it. So please don't tell me it doesn't push people away, I saw from first hand experience that it does. Some people there liked the BB, but we got A LOT of hate too.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And as I've said again and again, this seems to be more of an issue with people's connection to what is being destroyed rather than an understanding of the fact that BB is not trying "to do" anything other than react from a defensive posture. This is a new type of war, and they call it AUSTERITY. Shall we hand out more useless papers at the local uni? Another workshop on socialism? Another International? How 'bout we form a Party? Like it or not BB will do what it wishes and yes it will bring heat from the pigs. It will do so regardless of what the next plenary session agrees upon.
And I'll say it again and again, it's not that property is being destroyed. I've said that how many times? Reread post #191.

Whether BB will do whatever it wants and act stupidly is not debatable, it will. That's not what we were talking about though was it? We were talking about tactics, not whether or not so and so tactic will still be used.

[Ostrinski]

Am I really seeing a (former?) Brezhnevite defending black bloc?

Where is my coat

[Prometeo liberado]

I sincerely hope you aren't referring to moi?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And really jbeard it's a "defensive posture" against austerity? You know what's a good way from defending against austerity? Building a mass working class movement, not 30 people dressed in black breaking a McDonalds window.

[Prometeo liberado]

And really jbeard it's a "defensive posture" against austerity? You know what's a good way from defending against austerity? Building a mass working class movement, not 30 people dressed in black breaking a McDonalds window.

Why does it have to be one or the other? A good defense weighs all the possibilities. A good tactical approach does not mean inflexibility or only one front. Maybe we should all just register people to vote instead. :thumbup1:

[StalinFanboy]

my two cents: the black bloc as a tactic can be useful. but it is utterly useless in a populist movement that isnt sympathetic towards it or the anarchists.

On top of that, it may be "anonymous" in the sense that it superficially hides your identity. but it isn't opaque, meaning that it isn't invisible to power. wearing a mask isnt exactly helpful when the police know exactly which people are going to be doing something illegal. it wont stop them from arresting people and processing them. the arrest record that some of these insurrecto-activists must have is totally not worth smashing some windows.



Yeah then five seconds later you realize you won't have much of a paycheck then go "hmm...these people who are so pro-worker, they're going to help me not pay for bills or put food on the table because I live in poverty on shit wages. Thanks guys."
And yes I fuckin work at McDonalds asshole.
unemployment bro.

[Os Cangaceiros]

my two cents: the black bloc as a tactic can be useful. but it is utterly useless in a populist movement that isnt sympathetic towards it or the anarchists.

That's pretty much how I feel, too.

I was reading on anarchistnews recently some people reporting back about how they'd smashed a few banks recently. They claimed that bystanders mostly cheered them on. I'm pretty suspicious of "report backs" because I think people kind of see what they want to see in them, but I can actually easily imagine that happening, just because "THE BANKS" are kind of a hated entity at the moment, representing how capitalism got "degenerated" or something, and why everything crashed. Probably the most acceptable form of property destruction I can think of at the moment.

Unless you're part of one of those German car burning militias, I wouldn't go after people's cars, though, LOL. Also, the idea that EVERY DEMONSTRATION HAS TO HAVE A BLACK BLOC is really dumb. Black blocs of, like, 25 people are dumb.

[Ele'ill]

And really jbeard it's a "defensive posture" against austerity? You know what's a good way from defending against austerity? Building a mass working class movement, not 30 people dressed in black breaking a McDonalds window.


lololololol building a working class movement? pffft a good way from defending against austerity is post revolution THTHTHBHTHBHTH;HAF;DLKGH;FKLGH;FLKJG

[StalinFanboy]

also for all of you saying that the black bloc doesnt alienate people or turn people away, thats cool, maybe thats how it is where you live. i imagine there are places where the black bloc has some (significant) popular support, but it doesnt in the bay. and since that is what this topic is about, talking about its effectivity, and affectivity, elsewhere is irrelevant. for absolutely real, there are not a whole lot of people in the bay, especially right now, that are stoked on the black bloc or anarchists. for example, there was a march recently through oakland where a bunch of shit got broken by black bloc people, and a group of black dudes who had been previously totally down with occupy, came out to defend the club they were in from the anarchists.


im not saying this because i want to stop the black bloc, i have no desire to stop anyone from doing anything, unless it is to protect me or someone i care about. im saying it because it is painfully obvious how big of a failure the anarchists attempt to start a populist anti-capitalist movement in Bay, and the larger US, has been.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think it pushes people away at all.Considering all the turmoil and splits away from Occupy Oakland due to frustration and anger over this tactic - most vocally by the pacifists - this issue of tactics at least was a major dis-organizing factor.

Why do you think that the city and media always play up the Black Block? They do it specifically because they see it as a weak point of public support and a way to drive a wedge into the movement. And yes, they will always try and do this, but the point here is that it was effective.

[black magick hustla]

idk why some people feel compelled to defend something that is stupid in almost every way. its not effective as a tactic (unless there are hundreds to thousands of people) it doesn't go under the radar, it alienates a lot of people, and its an easy way to get arrested for something that is frankly not worthwhile. i feel like mariel and other people are trying to make violence and destruction as some sort of shitty principle. yes, shit gets smashed in like riots and social movements or whatever, but i get the feeling that this smashing is not really like organic class anger, but a bunch of dumb white people in hoodies coming up with it cuz' it fits their shitty ideological narrative

[GiantMonkeyMan]

lololololol building a working class movement? pffft a good way from defending against austerity is post revolution THTHTHBHTHBHTH;HAF;DLKGH;FKLGH;FLKJG
Do you honestly think 300 people dressed in masks in Oakland have more chance of bringing about a post revolutionary society than millions of like-minded workers?

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

So what is the issue here? People's old prejudices and inability to accept that maybe we are given no other alternatives or the impatient attitude of youth who may know all to well the forces that are stacked against them?

The issue is workers, out of the tens of thousands of workers who weer in Oakland with us marching on the port, those workers - WORKERS out there with their families, their grandparents, children etc - the teachers, the VERY YOUNG students (we're talking 9 years old), the mailman, the secretaries, the janitors and bus drivers. The fucking working class out there that day in Oakland was scared off by my fellow anarchists idiocy. We're not going to spread proper class consciousness by breaking windows. When we see such things in places like Spain it's because the population has a lot more anti capitalist leanings than in America. All we did in Oakland, all we accomplished with the silly VANGUARDIST window breaking was to make the crowd go from about 100,000 people to a few thousand people overnight. American workers aren't at that stage yet. We need more port shut down type events where scores of thousands of people are there out in the community mingling with people who have a more advanced view of capitalism, people who's end goal is revolution. The working class needs to be 'radicalized' and this process doesn't involve scaring them away with property destruction. It's too early in the game for that. This new generation of Americans has been so inoculated with capitalist culture they don't understand what would drive people to smash shit. Smashing shit isnt going to "break the spell".

[Prometeo liberado]

Smashing shit isnt going to "break the spell".
Of course it won't. No one is saying it is supposed to. But it won't keep people from a march either. Last I checked people kept themselves from marches while BB showed up. I guess that is a testament to where people stand and their commitment. If you don't want to take your future into your own hands then I'm sure you'll have no problem finding an excuse for that.
BB as VANGUARDIST huh? :rolleyes:

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Of course it won't. No one is saying it is supposed to. But it won't keep people from a march either. Last I checked people kept themselves from marches while BB showed up. I guess that is a testament to where people stand and their commitment. If you don't want to take your future into your own hands then I'm sure you'll have no problem finding an excuse for that.
BB as VANGUARDIST huh? :rolleyes:

No, breaking windows will not "break the spell". Yes propery damage will scare off thousands of people. I saw it happen first hand in Oakland. Last I checked I live in Oakland and also heard what workers in the community thought. They didnt understand. The goal, at this point, should be getting as many people to understand WHY socialists would smash shit- if they did understand they'd prob join in the smashing, but, until they do understand the anger and fustration acts of property damage by a small minority during large events will just turn the larger community away from such events. I saw it all happen.

More time on information propaganda is needed before 'propaganda of the deed' will be understood. You should read Berkmans prison memoirs, it took him a prison sentence for trying to kill a man to understand this. He just couldnt figure out why workers didnt understand why he tried to kill Frick. I'm not equating property damage with murder I'm talking about the concept of 'propaganda of the deed' which is at the root of blac bloc tactics (In America). Save it guys. At this point in the game it's pointless, counterproductive even.

[Prof. Oblivion]

What is the point?

Nobody has ever developed "class consciousness" by watching someone break a window.

I always found BB tactics quite pretentious and self-absorbed, TBH.

[The Machine]

i mean you dont fuck with another mans vehicle. its just against the rules

[The Douche]

i mean you dont fuck with another mans vehicle. its just against the rules

Sorry, I never really was big on "the rules".

[Yazman]

MODERATOR ACTION:

I've seen enough trolling, flaming and bullshit in here that I've had enough - if you're angry or annoyed at what somebody else is saying, take a break and come back some other time.

Any future posts in this thread that contain flaming or trolling of any kind are going to result in infractions and thread closure.

Keep the discussion civil and keep it constructive, or don't post at all.

[Rugged Collectivist]

If people get scared off by property damage, how useful are they going to be in a revolutionary situation anyway?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

1. So, obvs, insofar as the working class is not as-such outside of capitalism, any attack on capital is going to objectively harm the working class. That's not a bad thing, since the communist project vis-a-vis the working class is its abolition. The question then is not so much what hurts the working class as regards the necessity of their participation within capital, as what hurts the functioning of capital and opens up the possibilities of something beyond it. I'm reminded of when my home town was struck by a severe hurricane - many were without power for weeks, there was tremendous damage to infrastructure, etc. - and out of this chaos there emerged, briefly, new forms of self-organization, sharing, etc. There was not a push to fully realize these forms, and good ol' capitalist reality quickly returned, but it certainly expanded the horizon of what is possible.
2. I don't think calling Boots Riley a liberal is particularly honest, and I don't think acknowledging the disproportionate whiteness of anarchists relative to the relative blackness of Oakland is "identity politics" (at least, its certainly better than liberal-white-faux-colour-blindness which, even dressed up in insurrecto-speak, still reeks of "multiculturalism").
3. I have been arrested in peaceful demonstrations. I have never been arrested for participating in a black bloc. Just sayin'.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Perhaps no other Occupy has seen the turn in fortunes that Occupy Oakland has seen. Initially it was one of the most successful occupies in the country, drawing tens of thousands to their events, shutting down the port, organizing a mass general strike and having broad appeal to a diverse group of Oaklanders. Then a cadre of Black Bloc -- who, we are repeatedly told, are mostly white and come from out of town -- began to vandalize stores and seek conflict with the police. Now, Occupy Oakland has shrunk and lost community support. This week it has taken the first steps toward re-starting.

The Occupy Oakland Media Collective published a public statement distancing itself from the violence, vandalism and police conflict of the Oakland Commune, which is the fringe group pushing these tactics. The statement points out that the division between the Commune and Occupy has existed but not been discussed in public. The Media Collective seeks to "fully expose the division" and acknowledge the divorce between the two groups.

In a post on the Occupy Oakland website, "Brining Mass Participaton Back to Occupy Oakland," the view could not be more clearly expressed:

"We resoundingly reject their goals, strategies and tactics. They have twisted Occupy Oakland to serve their narrow, academic interests, rather than serving the people."

"Under the guise of diversity of tactics, they leave room for only one tactic, namely, random property destruction."

"We disagree, because these tactics have alienated the vast majority of citizens of Oakland. We disagree because we believe these tactcs will not allow us to build the better world that we want."



http://october2011.org/blogs/kevin-zeese/occupy-oakland-says-no-violence-and-vandalism-fringe-blac-block-group

[Delenda Carthago]

Clashing under masks, with people that you dont know next to you, where noone gives an answer on his actions to nobody, specially not to those organising the demo, with a blur political identity as a backround.

Fuckin great idea huh?


And yes, this comes from me, I kno.

[KurtFF8]

If people get scared off by property damage, how useful are they going to be in a revolutionary situation anyway?

I would say that Black Bloc actions are more vandalism than destruction. It seems that most of the damage done (at least in instances of the tactic being used in the US) result in a very minor amount of actual property damage being done.

This costs the businesses in question very little. Although even if it cost them quite a lot of money: where do you think one place they will look to pay for it will be? (Although most likely they have insurance that covers it anyway)

So if it's meant to be more of a symbolic tactic to either galvanize folks, or influence (on an ideological and political field) folks' ideas: it seems the tactic falls quite short of its own goals. (Of both direct damage and broader tactical/strategic questions)

[Ele'ill]

I would say that Black Bloc actions are more vandalism than destruction. It seems that most of the damage done (at least in instances of the tactic being used in the US) result in a very minor amount of actual property damage being done.

I've heard half a million dollars in damage was done in Seattle on May Day in under 20 minutes and lesser events with similar activity can still cost a bit (thousands of dollars) cause windows just aren't inexpensive but I wouldn't say this is the only purpose of the tactic to begin with.




This costs the businesses in question very little. Although even if it cost them quite a lot of money: where do you think one place they will look to pay for it will be? (Although most likely they have insurance that covers it anyway)

Of course they have insurance and many times the windows are replaced later that day or the following day but saying 'oh they have insurance' doesn't mean 'oh hey hundreds of thousands of dollars are just freely there to use for replacement whatevers' and insurance especially doesn't hide the social atmosphere of anger and revolt shown towards those things getting attacked. It can't repair the 'waking up' or 'spell breaking' element involved in watching the state completely lose control and those institutions and organizations that everyone knows are terrible getting broken and in fact that at times ends up costing millions and millions in PR money but I wouldn't limit this last part as a corporate/state response solely to property destruction I think we've seen other social movements put pressure on even if they were liberal and otherwise benign.

Regarding the other place they'd look which would be cutting worker's hours or whatever else I find it mostly irrelevant as with any escalated actions against capital in whatever organizational form there's going to be a response whether it's scabs or firings or store closings or calling the cops in to shoot workers to death etc..





So if it's meant to be more of a symbolic tactic to either galvanize folks, or influence (on an ideological and political field) folks' ideas: it seems the tactic falls quite short of its own goals. (Of both direct damage and broader tactical/strategic questions)

But there have been several stories in this thread pointing towards people supporting direct action (bystanders) and such so I dunno where everyone keeps getting this from. This article here I don't entirely agree with really but It's kind of the same dialogue that's going on in this thread and it's pretty dismal, the bringing up of broken car windows over and over again and of 'people being alienated cuz they're scared' which isn't really the case either although I'm sure some people are. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/02/why-all-the-smashy-smashy-a-beginners-guide-to-targeted-property-destruction

[KurtFF8]

I've heard half a million dollars in damage was done in Seattle on May Day in under 20 minutes and lesser events with similar activity can still cost a bit (thousands of dollars) cause windows just aren't inexpensive but I wouldn't say this is the only purpose of the tactic to begin with.

And this (perhaps high end estimate) is significantly less of a financial "blow" to capital than the port shutdowns.



Of course they have insurance and many times the windows are replaced later that day or the following day but saying 'oh they have insurance' doesn't mean 'oh hey hundreds of thousands of dollars are just freely there to use for replacement whatevers' and insurance especially doesn't hide the social atmosphere of anger and revolt shown towards those things getting attacked. It can't repair the 'waking up' or 'spell breaking' element involved in watching the state completely lose control and those institutions and organizations that everyone knows are terrible getting broken and in fact that at times ends up costing millions and millions in PR money but I wouldn't limit this last part as a corporate/state response solely to property destruction I think we've seen other social movements put pressure on even if they were liberal and otherwise benign.

But what "waking up" or "spell breaking" elements really resulted from these actions? This is where I don't understand advocates of this tactic: there is an assumption that these actions do "wake folks up" or whatnot, but I've just yet to see this claim fit in with reality. It seems that the media/state/etc. have a pretty easy time marginalizing the folks/ideas of the black bloc. I'm not sure they need to spend millions on trying to counter the tactic in the ideological sphere (unless perhaps you can demonstrate otherwise, or even demonstrate how these actions have "awaken" anyone)


Regarding the other place they'd look which would be cutting worker's hours or whatever else I find it mostly irrelevant as with any escalated actions against capital in whatever organizational form there's going to be a response whether it's scabs or firings or store closings or calling the cops in to shoot workers to death etc..

Fair enough of course, but in cases like strike action: it's a direct action by workers against capital (and very targeted). In the case of black bloc window smashing: it's not quite the same thing, but rather anonymous folks attacking "symbols" of capital. So the actual conflict is mean to be symbolic to an extent. This entails a whole different kind of set of dynamics than something like a strike.




But there have been several stories in this thread pointing towards people supporting direct action (bystanders) and such so I dunno where everyone keeps getting this from. This article here I don't entirely agree with really but It's kind of the same dialogue that's going on in this thread and it's pretty dismal, the bringing up of broken car windows over and over again and of 'people being alienated cuz they're scared' which isn't really the case either although I'm sure some people are. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/05/02/why-all-the-smashy-smashy-a-beginners-guide-to-targeted-property-destruction

While I do think that some folks are "aliened by being scared" I also think it alienates folks who aren't scared but rather see the tactic as pointless and flawed.

[Ele'ill]

And this (perhaps high end estimate) is significantly less of a financial "blow" to capital than the port shutdowns.

It didn't take hundreds of thousands of people to do it and it took between 20-30 minutes. Comparing larger mobilizations to small affinity actions doesn't make sense because the smaller affinity actions often take place during or around the time of the larger mobilizations- They are not a separate entity, they are a community and worker action against capitalism.



But what "waking up" or "spell breaking" elements really resulted from these actions? This is where I don't understand advocates of this tactic: there is an assumption that these actions do "wake folks up" or whatnot, but I've just yet to see this claim fit in with reality.


Escalation of tactics. Revolt is possible outside of the protest culture fog. History isn't fiction. People regaining control of their lives not just generally but specifically expressing their desire to be free and attacking violent institutions often operating in their community. This is direct action.



It seems that the media/state/etc. have a pretty easy time marginalizing the folks/ideas of the black bloc.

They have a pretty easy time marginalizing anybody/any movement that they want to and they do it often. Trying to appease them is incorrect because they are not on your side.



I'm not sure they need to spend millions on trying to counter the tactic in the ideological sphere (unless perhaps you can demonstrate otherwise,

Corporations, cops, politicians, etc.. frequently launch counter PR campaigns to bad press this isn't new news




Fair enough of course, but in cases like strike action: it's a direct action by workers against capital (and very targeted). In the case of black bloc window smashing: it's not quite the same thing, but rather anonymous folks attacking "symbols" of capital. So the actual conflict is mean to be symbolic to an extent. This entails a whole different kind of set of dynamics than something like a strike.

yes the black bloc comes from Mars they are not people they r aliens




I also think it alienates folks who aren't scared but rather see the tactic as pointless and flawed.

You mean folks like yourself thinking it's pointless and flawed for the reasons we are right now talking about, right?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Lol at this thread. I mean, Black Bloc can be incredibly useful, but seriously - anyone who thinks that BBs in apathetic and unsympathetic areas help the working class in any way are deluding themselves.

Oh, and be right back; gonna throw a brick into Mari3l's car window cos' It's revolutionary and shit, you dig?

[Ele'ill]

Oh, and be right back; gonna throw a brick into Mari3l's car window cos' they deleted my pol-pot tendency group

fixed this for you and in the future if you don't really have anything new to contribute to a thread don't bother posting

[l'Enfermé]

Can we please stop calling Black Bloc a "tactic". It's not a tactic. Or a strategy. Or anything, really. The purpose of tactics and strategy is to eventually reach some goal or objective. Tactics are a means. The Black Bloc is an end in itself. Black Bloc is about angry youngsters breaking things that don't belong to them just for the purpose of breaking things. It doesn't lead to anything or achieve anything. Black Bloc is no more a tactic than masturbation or defecating.

[Geiseric]

These metaphysics, and talking in nuances are really putting me off. We need to organize the working class, not get together with our petit bourgeois, predominantly white friends and try to "set an example," or whatever by doing direct action. If it's thousands of people gathered in one place like Occupy, direct action is the worst possible thing to do, because regular people DONT LIKE BEING ARRESTED. It's a highly alienating tactic for anybody whose not white, because cops in a second will beat the shit out of a black guy if he's caught blac blocing, or they'd find some way to use this as an excuse for deportation even for immigrants.

It is never, I repeat NEVER a valid tactic. I'm not going to advocate something so fucking stupid, which misrepresents the left and activists in general to hundreds of thousands of people who watch the news.

[more_like_"crapitalism"]

These metaphysics, and talking in nuances are really putting me off. We need to organize the working class, 1.)not get together with our petit bourgeois, predominantly white friends and try to "set an example," or whatever by doing direct action. If it's thousands of people gathered in one place like Occupy, direct action is the worst possible thing to do, because regular people DONT LIKE BEING ARRESTED. 2.)It's a highly alienating tactic for anybody whose not white, because cops in a second will beat the shit out of a black guy if he's caught blac blocing, or they'd find some way to use this as an excuse for deportation even for immigrants.

It is never, I repeat NEVER a valid tactic. 3.)I'm not going to advocate something so fucking stupid, which misrepresents the left and activists in general to hundreds of thousands of people who watch the news.

1. how are people who participate in black blocs by any stretch of the imagination "petit-bourgeois"? isn't it generally petit-bourgeois people who have their windows put in by said black bloc?

2. that's fucking absurd. this assumes every black bloc is entirely composed of white kids, which is simply not the case.

3. don't speak so soon.

that being said, there are instances where it's useful, and instances where it's not. occupy is a perfect example of when it's NOT useful, as it's inherently reformist in nature. i really don't understand why the left has attached themselves to it. even the rhetoric of the "99%" is silly.

[ellipsis]

two things:

1) one argument against breaking windows, etc. is that it isn't ecological, those windows have to be replaced with new materials, finite planet, etc.

2) im in the time and place part of the spectrum. also I wish that people in the bay area wouldn't expend so much energy break shit and spend more time and effort building shit, like gardens, FnB chapters, functional communal living, etc.

[Ele'ill]

two things:

1) one argument against breaking windows, etc. is that it isn't ecological, those windows have to be replaced with new materials, finite planet, etc.

Yes we should criticize the black bloc activity because of its carbon footprint. Way back when I was in school someone criticized ELF actions because fires pollute the air. :rolleyes:




2) im in the time and place part of the spectrum.

I think the time and place spectrum needs to be laid to rest.


also I wish that people in the bay area wouldn't expend so much energy break shit and spend more time and effort building shit, like gardens, FnB chapters, functional communal living, etc.

Yeah I dunno, people multi-task.