Zimbabwe and South Africa

[Jason]

A lot of reactionaries like to bring up failure in those two lands to prove socialism doesn't work. In addition, some of them use their failure to validate racism. What is the Marxist understanding of those two nations?

[Lynx]

Zimbabwe and South Africa are not socialist.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Zimbabwe and South Africa are not socialist.

I think he's talking about ZAPU/ZANU in the 1960s.

[Lynx]

I think he's talking about ZAPU/ZANU in the 1960s.
They were black nationalist movements masquerading as socialists.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

did they even claim to be socialist after they came to power? I thought Mugabe had given up all socialist pretences by the time he became a statesman.

[Lynx]

On paper they claim to be socialist. Their policies are another matter...

[Dean]

It's not hard to measure for something being socialist. It is determined by the level of worker control, and it exists as that control, over social institutions.

So, socialism didn't fail in the 'Soviet' regimes because the modicum of worker control that did occur was crushed by the Bolsheviks. Socialism didn't fail in these African regimes because it didn't ever really have the reigns of the state; I don't think it did in the USSR either at any time.

Ethnicity isn't the issue for why Africa is screwed. It is screwed because it is subject to "free market" discipline while Western trading partners enjoy heavy subsidies and regulatory capture / protectionism.

[Igor]

For people living in the west it seems weird that "socialism" is actually considered a prestige term in huge parts of the developing world. So it's kinda funny how nobody assumes that every movement and a government calling themselves democratic are so, but who would call themselves a socialist if they really weren't? Maybe those who want to benefit off millions and millions of people upon who the system shits on constantly and are thus attracted by socialist rhetoric, even if you don't give them the content. Socialism in name and symbols only means jack shit, most things with the word socialism in it are as socialist as the Democratic Republic of Congo is a shining example of democracy at work.

So yeah, the only thing policies of ZANU-PF and ANC discredit is ZANU-PF and ANC themselves. They have fuck all to do with socialism.

[Lynx]

They received help from USSR and China. Must have been an easy test for them to qualify as socialist and thus be eligible for aid.

[Jason]

Ethnicity isn't the issue for why Africa is screwed. It is screwed because it is subject to "free market" discipline while Western trading partners enjoy heavy subsidies and regulatory capture / protectionism.

Ironically, the US complained about the same imbalances in it's revolution.