'Anti-Germans' - Weekly Worker

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Great article here (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/932/not-part-of-the-left) about the pest noticably infiltrating the German Antifa movement, that are the 'anti-german' imperialist bastards.


The German bourgeoisie has long taken a liking to such quirky ‘Marxists’, with funds flowing from the Axel Springer foundation, among others.

Ha! Unbelievable, hopefully this fact will spread among the real left to purge the bastards. The hate that exists for these people is indescribable, they make the public think that the left have something to do with these people. What a mess.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Holy shit. Wasn't there a German anti-fascist on here called Luka who was restricted for the same positions not a month ago?

[ed miliband]

this is much better:

http://contested-terrain.net/nuanced-history-of-the-anti-germans/

[Grenzer]

Ha! Unbelievable, hopefully this fact will spread among the real left to purge the bastards. The hate that exists for these people is indescribable, they make the public think that the left have something to do with these people. What a mess.

The anti-Deutsch are pretty insane. For being such "anti-fascists", they really do seem an awful lot like actual fascists themselves. Sometimes I do wonder if there will be a particularly reactionary form of Zionism that ends up becoming a fascist current and actually popular in Israel. The irony would be quite delicious.

I read that article during lunch last week and thought it covered all the bases pretty well. I hadn't heard about the extent of their pro-state, anti-worker worker rhetoric until then.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The anti-Deutsch are pretty insane. For being such "anti-fascists", they really do seem an awful lot like actual fascists themselves. Sometimes I do wonder if there will be a particularly reactionary form of Zionism that ends up becoming a fascist current and actually popular in Israel. The irony would be quite delicious.

I read that article during lunch last week and thought it covered all the bases pretty well. I hadn't heard about the extent of their pro-state, anti-worker worker rhetoric until then.

Well you know what Winston Churchill had to say about the Antifascists becoming the new fascists... :laugh:




At the last anti-nazi demonstrations in Dresden where hundreds of thousands of antifascist counter-protesters come (many civilians), the Anti-Germans shouted a slogan saying "not enough Germans died" in the allied bombings of Dresden. I mean, stuff like that is really harmful to the left when people hear supposed 'autonomous leftists' belittling the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians because of Imperialist bombings.

[l'Enfermé]

It's quite outrageous that being anti-German is not a restrictable offense on RevLeft. Are not anti-semitism or racism towards any other nation restrictable(and even bannable?). What sort of pro-worker group would call itself "Anti-whatevernation"?

[Blake's Baby]

I think anti-Germans are restricted, maybe even banned. Being against a nation is not being against a 'race', however. Otherwise all our proud anti-Americans masquerading as 'anti-Imperialists' would be banned.

I agree though that the anti-Germans are a particualrly weird bunch. That's probably what happens when a country's recent past is a) described as the most evil event ever in human history and b) something that everyone there should feel guilty about.

'Not enough Germans died' however hardly seems like a pro-Nazi position to me.

[ed miliband]

this is much better:

http://contested-terrain.net/nuanced-history-of-the-anti-germans/

according to a pm from freepalestine this post seemed "apologist".

have you read the piece?

e: and it's no more "apologist" than the cpgb printing work by / giving a platform to werner bonefeld, moishe postone and a number of others associated, rightly or wrongly, with the "anti-german" milieu.

[Robocommie]

The anti-Deutsch are pretty insane. For being such "anti-fascists", they really do seem an awful lot like actual fascists themselves. Sometimes I do wonder if there will be a particularly reactionary form of Zionism that ends up becoming a fascist current and actually popular in Israel.

I wouldn't call it "fascism" per se, but you should look up Gush Emunim if you're not familiar with them. Right wing, ultranationalist religious Zionists. Though the group no longer exists formally today, it's a good example of some of the far right Israeli currents.

[Sasha]

That's one bullshit, factual wrong pile of crockshite article...

Anti Germans are still idiots but seriously, that article is helping no one...

[Sasha]

Besides, didn't we have a thread recently that exposed how happily the weekly worker placed advertising of anti-semites? They are part of the problem, not the solution.

[ed miliband]

Besides, didn't we have a thread recently that exposed how happily the weekly worker placed advertising of anti-semites? They are part of the problem, not the solution.

hmm, are you confusing that with my thread about the morning star publishing an article written by an anti-semite?

as i say above, the weekly worker has published pieces by people associated with anti-german positions.

[Sasha]

hmm, are you confusing that with my thread about the morning star publishing an article written by an anti-semite?

as i say above, the weekly worker has published pieces by people associated with anti-german positions.

indeed, my bad, sorry... :blushing: still think they are part of the problem though... :D

[ed miliband]

oh, i agree no doubt.

[Sasha]

I think anti-Germans are restricted, maybe even banned.

Being an anti-German is in principle not an restrictable let alone banable position on this board (as several past and current members inc the owner of this board are partial to some parts of anti-german thought), in praxis self labeled anti-germans always either get restricted for stuff like support of imperialism or banned for anti-arab racism.


Being against a nation is not being against a 'race', however. Otherwise all our proud anti-Americans masquerading as 'anti-Imperialists' would be banned.

Indeed, there is very little difference between our "anti-imperialist" (white) american members and anti-germans.

It also important to note that "anti-german" is a translation of "anti-deutsche", german referring here not to germans or even so much germany as a nation but to percieved intrinsical behavioral traits of (in the case of moderate anti-germans) the german state (something very akin to anti-imperialist analysis) to (in the more extreme cases) the german psyche or soul..



I agree though that the anti-Germans are a particualrly weird bunch. That's probably what happens when a country's recent past is a) described as the most evil event ever in human history and b) something that everyone there should feel guilty about.

'Not enough Germans died' however hardly seems like a pro-Nazi position to me.

Indeed.

[Delenda Carthago]

I think its being a bit injust on Autonome. I only know it through the greek autonome antifa, but I think parts like these


One was not required to use one’s brain too much to be part of the Autonome scene - theory came second-best behind romantic left idealism, street-wise bravado and, especially later, a philistine political correctness. Frankly, it was enough just to be there, wear the right badge and like the right bands.

and after that on


Though initially set up as mere self-defence units, the antifa groups increasingly assumed a life of their own with the rise of far-right violence in the 90s. What they inherited from the Autonome was their moralistic critique of fascism, which they, not unlike official German state ideology, simply regarded as The Great Evil. At best, they flogged a sub-Dimitrov line, according to which the fascists were at all times in cahoots with the state. Anti-fascism, if it constitutes one’s main political focus, has the advantage of not requiring a great deal of critical thinking. It targets an immediate, tangible enemy. Because no-one in their right mind could seriously argue for fascism or racism, it appears as the most righteous of struggles, providing plenty of opportunity for heroic posturing.


is a bit rush.

I mean, after all, the german nazis rised up to 15% in the 90s. I dont know. Maybe it was different in the 80s, which are the most things I ve read about.

[officer nugz]

Indeed, there is very little difference between our "anti-imperialist" (white) american members and anti-germans.how do you figure that?

and I do not think that the anti-imperialist groups in the US (such as the PSL, WWP) are disproportionately white, just as a sidenote. but I have not been a member of those groups so I do not know for sure.

[The Douche]

There is a wide range of political positions related to the anti-Germans, not all of them wave US/Israeli flags and chant "bomber Harris do it again" or whatever. We did have an anti-German on this site for a while who was not banned or restricted for his politics (he got banned, but for other shit)

[officer nugz]

There is a wide range of political positions related to the anti-Germans, not all of them wave US/Israeli flags and chant "bomber Harris do it again" or whatever. We did have an anti-German on this site for a while who was not banned or restricted for his politics (he got banned, but for other shit)what are the politics of other less outwardly nationalist anti-germans?

[The Douche]

what are the politics of other less outwardly nationalist anti-germans?

I'd let psycho or ravachol explain it, as they're far, far, more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. But I think the crux of the position, is that they oppose a Palestinian state because they oppose all states, and they argue that the specific opposition to Israel but not other states is latently anti-semitic.

The anti-german politic is actually rooted in militant anti-nationalism, as they opposed the reunification of Germany.

The hardliners who fly Israeli flags and shit are organized around a journal called Bahamas I believe.

[ed miliband]

what are the politics of other less outwardly nationalist anti-germans?

stuff like this:

http://shiftmag.co.uk/?p=603

[Sasha]

Here are some of the more worthwhile earlier threads (of many) on the subject of the anti-deutsche;
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t127324/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/translation-antigerman-text-t127164/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t143568/index.html

[l'Enfermé]

I'd let psycho or ravachol explain it, as they're far, far, more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. But I think the crux of the position, is that they oppose a Palestinian state because they oppose all states, and they argue that the specific opposition to Israel but not other states is latently anti-semitic.

The anti-german politic is actually rooted in militant anti-nationalism, as they opposed the reunification of Germany.

The hardliners who fly Israeli flags and shit are organized around a journal called Bahamas I believe.
If they oppose all states, why did they want 2 German states rather than 1? Seems to me like the less states there are, the closer the reality is to their vision :confused:.

[Delenda Carthago]

Here are some of the more worthwhile earlier threads (of many) on the subject of the anti-deutsche;
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t127324/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/translation-antigerman-text-t127164/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t143568/index.html
Υou got anything on Autonome?

[Sasha]

A post of mine from the last thread I linked too;

actually not, reasoning went more; re-unified germany will maybe/likely lead to second holocaust -> germany bad ->only thing preventing second holocaust = state of israel -> israel good -> what is an threat to israel? = arabnations! ergo arab nations want second holocaust -> what will prevent arabnations from making second holocaust? = US -> US wars in midle east good.

Still insane logic but one that its somehow possible to follow


German anti-imp urban guerillia groups got their training mostly in libanon/syria and got there so exited about running with the big boys (palestenian black november mostly) that they jumped the palestinian bandwagon with a bit over enthausiasm.
during some solidarity actions with the palestinian cause some shit happend that stank more than a bit of anti-semitism. Some idiot RZ members attacked an german synogoge during the night of the kristalnacht remembrance, an bus carying israeli toerists to an former concentration camp got shot at and during several joint RAF/black november hostage actions jews got seperate from the other hostages and shot first.
this triggerd an valid debate in the german left about leftist anti-semitism and terrorism in general, this evolved into the anti-german critique.


its important to note though that the anti-germans are not an homogenious group.
for example you can already define 3 very distinct kinds of anti-germans that all deserve an difrent approach.

1- moderate anti-germans/anti-nationale;
(although mostly marxists they hold on nations/israel opinions not that far removed from mine)
in short: all nations states are bad and need to be done away with, the reforming of an strong, big nation state in the midle of europe was an bad idea. The existence of the state of israel is by now an hystoric fact. As long as nation states exist, israel has as much right to exist as anyother state. And an war won by its arab neighbour states will propably have catastrofic consequences for the israeli proletariat.
The kibutzim project was an intresting experiment in "socialist" autonomus comunity forming. And no mather what, israel is still one of the only democratic nation state in the midle east (besides libanon and turkey) surrounded by authoritarian nation states, there is no reason to support the latter over the former like some/most anti-imps do.
(note that i, and so do some moderate anti-g's, vehermently oppose the occupation and israels apartheid system)
very OK people to be on an antifa demo with, just dont go into any political discussions with them afterwards.

2. egotronic kiddo's
teens with an blackblock fetish and and preference for electro (egotronic is an populair anti-german electro band), lifestylists who wave israeli flags and glorify the dresden massacar and the RAF because it winds up their parents and pisses of the nazi's big time. actual political knowledge close to zero.
the fad is dying out, greek style insurectionism is the new israel.

3. Bahama's crowd
the hardcore anti-germans, during the whole anti-german debate they took such weird positions that someone, expressing the feelings of the majority of the autonomus left, asked them why thei didnt "fuck off to the bahama's"?. They then started their own critical magazine called bahama's and like any isolated group completly radicalised. By now they support the EDL as an proletarian movement against islamofascism, write positve articels about former hitler jugend member pope ratzinger because he is an force against islamification etc etc.
beyond help, best to ignore them, they are now getting in their 40's so very soon no'one takes them serious anymore anyway.

[Sasha]

If they oppose all states, why did they want 2 German states rather than 1? Seems to me like the less states there are, the closer the reality is to their vision :confused:.

Most saw the DDR still as the better Germany, a deformed workers state.
Also, (as proven correctly by history since) they analysed that a re-unified Germany would again dominate Europe and would herald its return as an imperial nation and drop its pacifist constitution.

[Ravachol]

I think most of the issue has already been covered here (especially in the threads Psycho linked to in which I posted some stuff too) re.: the anti-D and their theoretical origins.

I think most of anti-D 'theory' is rather laughable and my personal experiences with them vary (from having friendly conversations with confused egotronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egotronic) kids at demos to being shouted at vigorously years ago by some weird anti-deutsche in a squat near the German border for wearing a Kufiya).

One should keep in mind that part of their theory developed as a (knee-jerk) response to the mindless 'anti-impie' positions of the traditional 'left' who drone on and on about 'international solidarity' with everything that burns an american or israeli flag, from Qaddafi to Hamas. In addition, some of the german 'anti-imperialist' milieu lost itself in the logical end-result of a 'pure anti-imperialism', namely: nationalism with all-time lows such as RZ members seperating jews from non-jews during the Entebbe hijacking or the 'Tupamaros West-Berlin' firebombing a Synagoge to make a 'statement against Israel' or whatever.

It is within this context that the anti-german tendency could gain so much theoretical ground within a radical left still so traumatised by the 'national question' or as they say: 'Nichts so Deutsch wie die Anti-Deutscher'.

In my opinion the anti-D phenomenon is the mirror image of the typical 'anti-impie' (that is, the anti-imperialist reflex resting on the 'right to national self-determination' and other Leninist drivel) bullshit of much of the left. I don't want anything to do with either.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I dislike the anti- germans as a tendency quite a lot, but if they can be written off as not being a part of "the left" then I´d think the same would apply to marcyism and that tiresome breed of anti- imperialism as well.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I dislike the anti- germans as a tendency quite a lot, but if they can be written off as not being a part of "the left" then I´d think the same would apply to marcyism and that tiresome breed of anti- imperialism as well.

But writing for the biggest and most right wing newspaper in Germany (Springer, Bild, Axel-Springer Verlag etc.) and advocating the bombing of Iranian workers (not to mention the more dark side of cheering civilian german deaths of WW2 due to imperialist bombing and discrimination of individuals according to their biological background, germans in this case) has absolutelynothing to do with the left. The speakers and leaders of the Anti-German movement are conscious counterrevolutionary agents for imperialism. They hide their right wing views in left rhetoric and infiltrate all left wing movements in Germany, most dire turning the Antifa movement against real leftists.

[Sasha]

But writing for the biggest and most right wing newspaper in Germany (Springer, Bild, Axel-Springer Verlag etc.) and advocating the bombing of Iranian workers (not to mention the more dark side of cheering civilian german deaths of WW2 due to imperialist bombing and discrimination of individuals according to their biological background, germans in this case) has absolutelynothing to do with the left. The speakers and leaders of the Anti-German movement are conscious counterrevolutionary agents for imperialism. They hide their right wing views in left rhetoric and infiltrate all left wing movements in Germany, most dire turning the Antifa movement against real leftists.

Bullshit, i dont know one anti-german who still considers the Bahamas crowd as leftists let alone views them as their "leaders". Maybe this is hard to understand for a stalinists but there are no anti-german leaders, there is no anti-german CP, nor CC nor program. There are some hotly debated and conflicting theories that people in more or lesser extend sympathise and identify with.
This is a movement deeply rooted in criticaltheory for fucks sake, this kind if cartoonish vilification is exactly what gave room to the anti-germans to begin with.
And again, they are very much on the decline, all the area's I regularly come (except maybe dresden) they are an well-organised but minuscule group who are given way to much attention. their bark is a lot worse than their bite.

And no, they don't cheer civilian deaths "based on biological background", they resisted the whitewashing of the german population during the nazi regime from a "täter volk" to innocent victims, and yes people who didn't resist (which was the massive majority) where partly responsible for what happened (just as the dutch who didn't resist, the french who didn't resist, the americans who didn't resist the native genocide or slavery, the south-africans who didn't resist apartheid, the israelis who don't resist the occupation etc etc), whether that made them legitimate targets is question two.
It really takes a stalinist to take some dumb slogans shouted at a demo to wind up the fash, cops and bourgeois journalists as a program from the CC..

[Sasha]

Forgot about this short but worthwhile discussion between a.o. ravachol and malte in the music forum of all places; http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germans-ban-t127080/index.html?t=127080

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Bullshit, i dont know one anti-german who still considers the Bahamas crowd as leftists let alone views them as their "leaders". Maybe this is hard to understand for a stalinists but there are no anti-german leaders, there is no anti-german CP, nor CC nor program. There are some hotly debated and conflicting theories that people in more or lesser extend sympathise and identify with.
This is a movement deeply rooted in criticaltheory for fucks sake, this kind if cartoonish vilification is exactly what gave room to the anti-germans to begin with.
And again, they are very much on the decline, all the area's I regularly come (except maybe dresden) they are an well-organised but minuscule group who are given way to much attention. their bark is a lot worse than their bite.

And no, they don't cheer civilian deaths "based on biological background", they resisted the whitewashing of the german population during the nazi regime from a "täter volk" to innocent victims, and yes people who didn't resist (which was the massive majority) where partly responsible for what happened (just as the dutch who didn't resist, the french who didn't resist, the americans who didn't resist the native genocide or slavery, the south-africans who didn't resist apartheid, the israelis who don't resist the occupation etc etc), whether that made them legitimate targets is question two.
It really takes a stalinist to take some dumb slogans shouted at a demo to wind up the fash, cops and bourgeois journalists as a program from the CC..

LOL, I guess if one critiques Right wing infiltrators one automatically becomes a "Stalinist" in your view, eh? Anti-Germans are anti-Marxist idiots. Do you honestly expect german individuals to have resisted Fascism during WW2? Why do the anti-germans not have an anti-American faction because of the genocide against Native Americans, African slavery, Vietnam war atrocities etc.? Because it would simply stupid to be against persons based on their nationality. "Tätervolk" blabla garbage, it is ridiculous to expect non-leftist individuals in capitalist society to resist a bourgeois-"democratically" elected leader (Hitler) while the newspapers and schools brainwashed everyone.

"And no, they don't cheer civilian deaths based on biological background" Dresden, Anti-Nazi demo February 2012, was a big scandal, it happened. Anti-Germans, if they are maybe not even followers of the 'right-wing' anti-germans writing for Springer (what the hell, the name alone is right wing), travel on the edge of Fascism. If you are against German Nazism, Fascism and are left wing, why not remain in the normal Antifa movement who are in their vast majority consequently against all nations and all types of Nationalism (not just German nationalism, but also Israeli and US Nationalism)? Because every single Anti-German i have talked to cloaks their pro-Israel and Pro-US imperialist views in the name of stopping the "Tätervolk" which is ridiculous and right-wing. The persons who join the 'Anti-Germans' are joining a movement which consciously and openly supports US and Israeli Imperialism in the name of stopping German Imperialism. Stupid counter-revolutionary tools are the people who defend such a movement.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Forgot about this short but worthwhile discussion between a.o. ravachol and malte in the music forum of all places; http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germans-ban-t127080/index.html?t=127080

By the way, here (http://syndikalismus.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/eingesandt-antideutsche-kriegsfuhrung-ein-lehrgang-fur-anfangerinnen-und-fortgeschrittene/) is a good article by the anarcho-syndicalist comrades about the cult which calls itself "anti-germans".

[The Douche]

What does tatervolk mean in english?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

What does tatervolk mean in english?

'Täter' means Guilty, and Volk i think you know means 'People'. It was a popular term of the postWorld-War-2 generation to rebel against their parents who took part in Nazi Fascism. It is of course completely counter-constructive as a revolutionary leftist to believe that the German working people are congenitally guilty for the crimes of Bourgeois Fascism and more so to go around saying it. The fact that Anti-Germans write for the most right-wing publication Axel-Springer, Bild shows exactly that these people are everything but leftists, they are now openly right wing infiltrators of the german Left and tools of imperialism.

[Sasha]

LOL, I guess if one critiques Right wing infiltrators one automatically becomes a "Stalinist" in your view, eh? Anti-Germans are anti-Marxist idiots. Do you honestly expect german individuals to have resisted Fascism during WW2? Why do the anti-germans not have an anti-American faction because of the genocide against Native Americans, African slavery, Vietnam war atrocities etc.? Because it would simply stupid to be against persons based on their nationality. "Tätervolk" blabla garbage, it is ridiculous to expect non-leftist individuals in capitalist society to resist a bourgeois-"democratically" elected leader (Hitler) while the newspapers and schools brainwashed everyone.

"And no, they don't cheer civilian deaths based on biological background" Dresden, Anti-Nazi demo February 2012, was a big scandal, it happened. Anti-Germans, if they are maybe not even followers of the 'right-wing' anti-germans writing for Springer (what the hell, the name alone is right wing), travel on the edge of Fascism. If you are against German Nazism, Fascism and are left wing, why not remain in the normal Antifa movement who are in their vast majority consequently against all nations and all types of Nationalism (not just German nationalism, but also Israeli and US Nationalism)? Because every single Anti-German i have talked to cloaks their pro-Israel and Pro-US imperialist views in the name of stopping the "Tätervolk" which is ridiculous and right-wing. The persons who join the 'Anti-Germans' are joining a movement which consciously and openly supports US and Israeli Imperialism in the name of stopping German Imperialism. Stupid counter-revolutionary tools are the people who defend such a movement.

No you dolt, when someone has, like you, "Organisation: SDAJ Sympathise with CPGB" in their profile I.e. stalinist organisations, i assume you are a stalinists.
And you have your timeline wrong, the anti-germans as a distinct part of the antifa movement formed after the dissolving of AFA/B.O. so at the time there was no organisation where they could remain part of.
besides, are you not complaining that they are infiltrators and taking over non anti-german organisations? Make up your mind already...
Also, seriously? Anyone critical of latent or overt anti-semitism in the leftist movement travels on the edge of fascism? A (admittedly inconsequent wonky) group of internationalist anti-nationalists who argue "israel last" need to be chased out of the left with torches and pitchforks but those who argue for state-capitalism in one country under the jackboot of a brutal dictatorship and support of bourgeois anti-leftist regimes under the guise of anti-imperialism are all o.k. ?
Sory but the unrelenting disproportinal focus of the left (and the right for that same matter) on israel is deeply rooted in anti-semitism... contrary to the anti-imps at least the autonomen/antifa give a damn about the kurds too.
and dude, I totally agree Dresden was a warcrime, but I also see that the ones pushing that beyond a sad historical fact in the context of a brutal world war germany itself started are the same people who go on and on about the sudeten-deutschers or how the wehrmacht where poor little boys who never laid a finger on a single Jew or russian civilian...
It's whitewashing of german history for a nationalist purpose.
Besides, who invented/introduced mass arial bombing with specific targeting of civilians? I believe guernica and roterdam came long before dresden...
Anyways, its all a mood discussion, the anti-germans hardly exist anymore except apparently in the mind of stalinoids and anti-imps as a useful stick to hit the more succesful autonomen dog with, as proven by the bullshit meets slander and have a ideological driven hack job lovebaby article in the o.p.

[Sasha]

youre arguments are 'becoming' mainstream zionist, in relation to defending isreal..

:lol:

Says the guy who had a sockpuppet to publish his anti-semite pflp propaganda....

I must be the first zionist who is not allowed to travel to israel, who gave the holocaust repayments-money he and his family got to build a school in Palestine... who is a member of a prominent anti-zionist Jewish organisatoon..
But hey, I'm a Jew who is critical of "leftist" anti-semitism so I am a zionist by default.. anyone still wondering how the antigermans came to be?

[Sasha]

I'm not your comrade and you are not mine...

[Ravachol]

For the kids out there who are all for the 'big lefty get-together', stuff like this (amongst other things, take a look at the KKE 20 October trololo thread for another example) is why we can't have nice things and why I've ceased considering myself (or any communist I consider worth the name) part of 'the left' for a long time.

[l'Enfermé]

It wouldn't be true to say that the Holocaust was a unique genocide that was completely irrational. It was quite rational and quite necessary for the NSDAP regime.

http://marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1960/auschwitz.htm

[ed miliband]

It wouldn't be true to say that the Holocaust was a unique genocide that was completely irrational. It was quite rational and quite necessary for the NSDAP regime.

http://marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1960/auschwitz.htm

for the sake of balance:

http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone

[cynicles]

Sory but the unrelenting disproportinal focus of the left (and the right for that same matter) on israel is deeply rooted in anti-semitism... contrary to the anti-imps at least the autonomen/antifa give a damn about the kurds too.

Is this like, 'we care about the kurds because the media told us too so that we can exploit during imperialist interventions later' caring or actual solidarity?

[ed miliband]

Is this like, 'we care about the kurds because the media told us too so that we can exploit during imperialist interventions later' caring or actual solidarity?

hahahahaahaha fucking hell, i can't laugh enough. when has "the media" ever mentioned the kurds? maybe it's different where you are, but the kurds, the tamils, etc., (though i don't support their national liberation struggles) are never mentioned in popular media. never. unless they've done something bad.

why is their plight so ignored?

[Sasha]

Is this like, 'we care about the kurds because the media told us too so that we can exploit during imperialist interventions later' caring or actual solidarity?

there long have been ties between the autonomous movement and kurdish and turkish leftist groups, both the netherlands and germany have really big groups of turkish and kurdish immigrants. its very common to see in germany pro-pkk grafitti on squats and in turn kurdish groups on antifa demo's.
GrupYorum always toured the dutch squat bars back when they where banned in turkey and i remember solidarity campaigns with DHKC/P against their european ban and with the F-type prisoners on hungerstrike. When tensions escalated this summer and first the greywolves and then the cops attacked the kurdish community center here in amsterdam we arranged lawyers for them and tried to help out with defense of the building.

[ed miliband]

there long have been ties between the autonomous movement and kurdish and turkish leftist groups, both the netherlands and germany have really big groups of turkish and kurdish immigrants. its very common to see in germany pro-pkk grafitti on squats and in turn kurdish groups on antifa demo's.
GrupYorum always toured the dutch squat bars back when they where banned in turkey and i remember solidarity campaigns with DHKC/P against their european ban and with the F-type prisoners on hungerstrike. When tensions escalated this summer and first the greywolves and then the cops attacked the kurdish community center here in amsterdam we arranged lawyers for them and tried to help out with defense of the building.

also in the uk, particularly in hackney and haringey.

[cynicles]

there long have been ties between the autonomous movement and kurdish and turkish leftist groups, both the netherlands and germany have really big groups of turkish and kurdish immigrants. its very common to see in germany pro-pkk grafitti on squats and in turn kurdish groups on antifa demo's.
GrupYorum always toured the dutch squat bars back when they where banned in turkey and i remember solidarity campaigns with DHKC/P against their european ban and with the F-type prisoners on hungerstrike. When tensions escalated this summer and first the greywolves and then the cops attacked the kurdish community center here in amsterdam we arranged lawyers for them and tried to help out with defense of the building.
I wondered whether there was a large kurdish community in Germany given the turkish migrant labour thing.

[Devrim]

I wondered whether there was a large kurdish community in Germany given the turkish migrant labour thing.

Yes, I would imagine that the percentage would be higher than the percentage of Kurds in Turkey, and in North London perhaps even more so.

Devrim

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It interesting that it's different in Europe but the Kurds were used by the media here in the US as a tool to manipulate public opinion in favor of military action against Iraq whenever it was convenient. But obviously that doesn't somehow turn the Kurds as a group into an American propaganda piece. I'm also a fan of the peculiar anti-imperialist position that the Kurds are an invention of western capitalism used against the revolutionary Arab states :rolleyes:

[thälmann]

there long have been ties between the autonomous movement and kurdish and turkish leftist groups, both the netherlands and germany have really big groups of turkish and kurdish immigrants. its very common to see in germany pro-pkk grafitti on squats and in turn kurdish groups on antifa demo's.
GrupYorum always toured the dutch squat bars back when they where banned in turkey and i remember solidarity campaigns with DHKC/P against their european ban and with the F-type prisoners on hungerstrike. When tensions escalated this summer and first the greywolves and then the cops attacked the kurdish community center here in amsterdam we arranged lawyers for them and tried to help out with defense of the building.

i dont know how it is in the netherlands, but in germany this work is from the so called antiimps, and it is this kind of politics which the antigermans attack since their beginnning. ( iam talking about the zionist scum and not about those in the early 90s) and to say the autonomous are the ones who work most closely with cephe and so on is simply not true. the classical autonomous scene in germany is totally anti-stalinist, and was mostly shocked by the practice of the dhkp-c.( suicide attacks, shooting inside the organistion etc) the old antiimps, meaning the scene related so the RAF in germany, doenst exist anymore. and what today is called antiimp, is simply thosein the left/autonomous scen who are still internationalist, and sometimes more ml and so on.

[Blake's Baby]

It interesting that it's different in Europe but the Kurds were used by the media here in the US as a tool to manipulate public opinion in favor of military action against Iraq whenever it was convenient. But obviously that doesn't somehow turn the Kurds as a group into an American propaganda piece. I'm also a fan of the peculiar anti-imperialist position that the Kurds are an invention of western capitalism used against the revolutionary Arab states :rolleyes:

No, it's the same here - in the 1990s the Kurds were a big deal as far as the media was concerned. A particularly noxious political chancer in the UK called Jeffrey Archer made a certain amount of political (and financial) capital out of organising 'relief efforts' (that never came to much and he kept the cash, apparently) during the Saddam Hussein years.

Of course nothing has been mentioned about them since 2003, unless as Ed says the PKK have done something that can be condemned. Because, as everyone knows, Turkey never does anything wrong, and everything's fine in Iraq now, isn't it?

[Yazman]

I just read the whole thing and I still don't understand something - What on earth is an "anti-German"? After reading the article it just sounds like they're nazis, so what's the big deal? We're against nazis anyway so why is this controversial?

[thälmann]

I just read the whole thing and I still don't understand something - What on earth is an "anti-German"? After reading the article it just sounds like they're nazis, so what's the big deal? We're against nazis anyway so why is this controversial?

because the left in the german speaking countries is so opportunist that they think you should tolerate such scum in your movement.

[Sasha]

They are not nazis, its just like ravachol already said "nothing so german as the anti-germans".
It's what you get when you try to superimpose a "ideology" on a broad heterogeneous, undogmatic, topic based movement. Shit is already impossible in the US (think occupy) or spain or greece, its fucking impossible with germans who think extremely black & white/completely unfamiliar with the concepts of "nuanced" and "agree to disagree" and "humans and their relationships are just fucking complicated"/are completely ingrained with dialectics.

[Sasha]

because the left in the german speaking countries is so opportunist that they think you should tolerate such scum in your movement.

I think a lot could be solved by understanding "the movement" less like "party" or "church" and more as "more or less agreeing fellow travelers"

[Sasha]

i dont know how it is in the netherlands, but in germany this work is from the so called antiimps, and it is this kind of politics which the antigermans attack since their beginnning. ( iam talking about the zionist scum and not about those in the early 90s) and to say the autonomous are the ones who work most closely with cephe and so on is simply not true. the classical autonomous scene in germany is totally anti-stalinist, and was mostly shocked by the practice of the dhkp-c.( suicide attacks, shooting inside the organistion etc) the old antiimps, meaning the scene related so the RAF in germany, doenst exist anymore. and what today is called antiimp, is simply thosein the left/autonomous scen who are still internationalist, and sometimes more ml and so on.

the movement was/is way to small for that here, in the late 80s there was a huge internal (quite violent) fight between a group of maoists and the whole of the rest of the movement (the anti-imps bore the brunt of the assaults of the maoist group) when the dust cleared a pretty workable "lets agree to disagree"/ "its about the topics and not the ideology" between the (quite small) remnants of the movement got established, even most of the non-leading members of the maoist group where taken back into the fold.
If you have the time have a look at the documentary "de stad was van ons" on youtube (its english subtitled) that deals with this period.

[Q]

Just noting that if you think the Weekly Worker article is full of it, you have the possibility to send in a reply in the form of a letter or a full article.

The Weekly Worker group have the position that by letting ideas clash (note: as opposed to uncritically given a platform for anyone, as someone claimed earlier), you can reach a deeper overall understanding, not just between the direct writers, but also by the between 10 and 20k readers that follow this publication actively.

On the Communist University there was also a session on the anti-Germans and, surprisingly and unannounced, there was a pro-anti-German in the public that strongly disagreed with the speaker. It was an interesting exchange and I hope to see more of it in written form as to enhance my understanding of this subject, because frankly, this movement seems so completely alien to me, I can barely grasp it.

[Ravachol]

because frankly, this movement seems so completely alien to me, I can barely grasp it.

Wait until you discover Critical whiteness and tumblr's identity politics :p

[Raúl Duke]

Wait until you discover Critical whiteness and tumblr's identity politics

:lol:
I'm familiar with this and I find it very strange. I also see it intriguing how the people who share this viewpoint seems to see it as a universal one (i.e. that it applies, in its entirety, even in context outside of the US, et.al). Although, I'm unsure if one can compare them to the anti-Germans however one could speculate that to some extent some of both has risen/been motivated by some form of self-guilt.

[Yazman]

h
They are not nazis, its just like ravachol already said "nothing so german as the anti-germans".
It's what you get when you try to superimpose a "ideology" on a broad heterogeneous, undogmatic, topic based movement. Shit is already impossible in the US (think occupy) or spain or greece, its fucking impossible with germans who think extremely black & white/completely unfamiliar with the concepts of "nuanced" and "agree to disagree" and "humans and their relationships are just fucking complicated"/are completely ingrained with dialectics.

I still don't understand what "anti-germans" are. "Anti-German" sounds like something you would call an internationalist who doesn't support German supremacy.

What are the "anti-Germans" in the context of, what are their defining views, what is their ideology, and what makes them unique? Sorry to be such a pain with this but I legitimately had never heard of them before and I can't seem to find a description of what they believe.

[Sasha]

h

I still don't understand what "anti-germans" are. "Anti-German" sounds like something you would call an internationalist who doesn't support German supremacy.

What are the "anti-Germans" in the context of, what are their defining views, what is their ideology, and what makes them unique? Sorry to be such a pain with this but I legitimately had never heard of them before and I can't seem to find a description of what they believe.

the wikipedia actually is, while short, pretty accurate; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_%28political_current%29 and has a bunch of articles at the bottom.

[GallowsBird]

I think it is a bit obvious that Anti-Germans are reactionaries; not only do they hold rallies celebrating such things as the bombing of Dresden holding placards shouting "Bomber Harris Do It Again!" but they regularly support US-Imperialism and Zionism.
Now don't get me wrong, there is a growing fascist movement in Germany and other parts of Eurasia that needs addressing, however, Anti-Germans took this Anti-Nationalism to illogical and paranoid extremes with their attacks on Anti-Imperialists, specifically Anti-Zionists who they regard as being "Anti-Semites" and closet Nazis. They also go to far in their strange notion of Germans and Germany as being inherently Fascist by nature (as much as they may sugarcoat it); this denies that Fascism (which is from Italy originally but I digress) and Nazism are purely connected with the material conditions of, respectively, Germany and Italy of the early 20th Century following the Great War. And far from being Anti-Nationalists they veer, far too often, into acting like Israeli nationalists and support any and all the nonsense and propaganda that comes from that government; viewing the US and Israel as a civilizing influence in the middle-east as opposed to the Muslim nations.

The bellow is a reasonably interesting article I found by doing a quick search, though I would encourage anyone to look into them themselves as what is written by anti-Germans, or chanted at demos is far more damning than any criticism from their opponents could ever be.
http://www.academia.edu/1608169/Towards_a_critique_of_anti-German_communism (http://www.academia.edu/1608169/Towards_a_critique_of_anti-German_communism)

[The Douche]

I think it is a bit obvious that Anti-Germans are reactionaries; not only do they hold rallies celebrating such things as the bombing of Dresden holding placards shouting "Bomber Harris Do It Again!" but they regularly support US-Imperialism and Zionism.
Now don't get me wrong, there is a growing fascist movement in Germany and other parts of Eurasia that needs addressing, however, Anti-Germans took this Anti-Nationalism to illogical and paranoid extremes with their attacks on Anti-Imperialists, specifically Anti-Zionists who they regard as being "Anti-Semites" and closet Nazis. They also go to far in their strange notion of Germans and Germany as being inherently Fascist by nature (as much as they may sugarcoat it); this denies that Fascism (which is from Italy originally but I digress) and Nazism are purely connected with the material conditions of, respectively, Germany and Italy of the early 20th Century following the Great War. And far from being Anti-Nationalists they veer, far too often, into acting like Israeli nationalists and support any and all the nonsense and propaganda that comes from that government; viewing the US and Israel as a civilizing influence in the middle-east as opposed to the Muslim nations.

The bellow is a reasonably interesting article I found by doing a quick search, though I would encourage anyone to look into them themselves as what is written by anti-Germans, or chanted at demos is far more damning than any criticism from their opponents could ever be.
http://www.academia.edu/1608169/Towards_a_critique_of_anti-German_communism (http://www.academia.edu/1608169/Towards_a_critique_of_anti-German_communism)

Didn't read the thread, huh?

[GallowsBird]

Didn't read the thread, huh?

Yeah, I did... not every post as I have more important things to do with my time really but I wasn't too busy at that specific point in time and I was bored so...

And nothing posted in this thread invalidates anything I have said.

[freepalestine]

.. anti-semite pflp propaganda....:laugh:

...I must be the first zionist who is not allowed to travel to israel, ..yes ,you must be.

[The Douche]

Yeah, I did... not every post as I have more important things to do with my time really but I wasn't too busy at that specific point in time and I was bored so...

And nothing posted in this thread invalidates anything I have said.

Sure, I'll take the bait:


I think it is a bit obvious that Anti-Germans are reactionaries; not only do they hold rallies celebrating such things as the bombing of Dresden holding placards shouting "Bomber Harris Do It Again!" but they regularly support US-Imperialism and Zionism.


Invalidated.


And far from being Anti-Nationalists they veer, far too often, into acting like Israeli nationalists and support any and all the nonsense and propaganda that comes from that government; viewing the US and Israel as a civilizing influence in the middle-east as opposed to the Muslim nations.


Invalidated.

The rest of your post amounts to "they don't agree with me, so I don't agree with them".

[Os Cangaceiros]

Is there something truly unique about German national character that makes it especially susceptible to things like domination, genocide, etc, according to the anti-Germans? What is it exactly about Germanic culture that inevitably leads to Germany crushing the rest of Europe under it's thumb?

[The Douche]

Is there something truly unique about German national character that makes it especially susceptible to things like domination, genocide, etc, according to the anti-Germans? What is it exactly about Germanic culture that inevitably leads to Germany crushing the rest of Europe under it's thumb?

Saying "the anti-germans" is like saying "the communists", as if euro-communists have the same position as anarchists.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'd assume that all people who identify as subscribers to an "anti-German" tendency have some sort of critique related to what I posted...:confused:

[The Douche]

I'd assume that all people who identify as subscribers to an "anti-German" tendency have some sort of critique related to what I posted...:confused:

I don't think so, I think the term is related to their basis in the opposition to the reunification of Germany.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yes, but why wouldn't they want a re-unified Germany? My understanding is that they thought it would've produced new dangers on the continent. Which I would imagine ties into what I was saying. Also, reading back in this thread, psycho touches on this in posts #15 and #25 of this thread.

[The Douche]

Yes, but why wouldn't they want a re-unified Germany? My understanding is that they thought it would've produced new dangers on the continent. Which I would imagine ties into what I was saying. Also, reading back in this thread, psycho touches on this in posts #15 and #25 of this thread.

Re-unified Germany did lead to bad things, though? Germany is the economic head of the EU, their analysis is not limited to fascism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not saying whether I think they're right or wrong on that point, I just want some writings from anti-Germans about German culture, and why they think it's so prone towards dominance or whatever. For example, why did the Holocaust happen in Germany and not France? Or Russia? Or Poland? Or any number of European states in which anti-semitism was rampant. I'm kinda-sorta reading a book on this subject at the moment, so I have some information about this subject, but I'd like to know more. Doesn't have to just be limited to Nazism, although I think it goes without saying that Nazism burned itself into the collective memory of the German left in a pretty big way...

[ed miliband]

I'm not saying whether I think they're right or wrong on that point, I just want some writings from anti-Germans about German culture, and why they think it's so prone towards dominance or whatever. For example, why did the Holocaust happen in Germany and not France? Or Russia? Or Poland? Or any number of European states in which anti-semitism was rampant. I'm kinda-sorta reading a book on this subject at the moment, so I have some information about this subject, but I'd like to know more. Doesn't have to just be limited to Nazism, although I think it goes without saying that Nazism burned itself into the collective memory of the German left in a pretty big way...

huge amount of english translations of anti-german/national stuff here: http://antigerman.wordpress.com

[The Douche]

huge amount of english translations of anti-german/national stuff here: http://antigerman.wordpress.com

Fuck. http://antigerman.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/the-hitler-youth-hairstyle/ I normally wear my hair in a variation of this, and apparently I dress like an autonomist, and have tattoos, including a viking rune on my throat. Guess I better no go to northern europe.

[Sasha]

nah, we'll probably finger you for a hipster, and even when we dont we in general will give you a chance to say something in your defense before we deck you, besides that new marx tattoo on your neck let alone the clogg on the other side should trump the rune stuff...

[Sasha]

huge amount of english translations of anti-german/national stuff here: http://antigerman.wordpress.com

lol, funny that they link in a positive way to the dutch afa magazine alert, our editor is also involved with the Palestinian olive tree solidarity campaing...

[cynicles]

I couldn't figure it out before, I couldn't quite put my finger on how to describe the creep factor I get from anti-Germans, then I was reminded of the Maoist Third-Worldists and it all clicked.

[GallowsBird]

The rest of your post amounts to "they don't agree with me, so I don't agree with them".

And your post amounts to your useless opinions. And is the view that "they don't agree with me, so I don't agree with them" a bad thing? Not really; I don't agree with capitalists because they don't agree with me. If you have two antagonistic ideologies that is how it works. It goes without saying. You may as well put it that Anti-Germans don't agree with me because I don't agree with them. What peculiar arguments float around RevLeft these days.

[The Douche]

And your post amounts to your useless opinions. And is the view that "they don't agree with me, so I don't agree with them" a bad thing? Not really; I don't agree with capitalists because they don't agree with me. If you have two antagonistic ideologies that is how it works. It goes without saying. You may as well put it that Anti-Germans don't agree with me because I don't agree with them. What peculiar arguments float around RevLeft these days.

My point is that you don't know what anti-germans are. You don't agree with your own incorrect understanding. You obviously don't realize the range of individuals and ideas that exist under the anti-german banner.

Everything from people who wave US/Israeli flags to people who would just more generally be considered anti-statist.