What proportion of the Proletariat do you think would join the bourgeoisie?

[Agathor]

If they were given the chance.

[Devrim]

The vast majority. I would.

Devrim

[bcbm]

i read the wall street journals fashion magazine and it makes me want to be rich

[x-punk]

Most of them i would imagine. But I think it would probably depend on the lengths they would have to go to to achieve this.

E.g. I was recently discussing with someone how some care homes would deliberately run understaffed to increase profits. Sacrificing the level of care to extremely vulnerable groups just to line their pockets. This sort of stuff is really dirty and i think many people would not be part of it even if it meant sacrificing potential wealth. However if it was owning and growing say a chain of hotels or a plumbing business most would do that.

[ed miliband]

where are you trying to go with this?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Most of them i would imagine. But I think it would probably depend on the lengths they would have to go to to achieve this.

E.g. I was recently discussing with someone how some care homes would deliberately run understaffed to increase profits. Sacrificing the level of care to extremely vulnerable groups just to line their pockets. This sort of stuff is really dirty and i think many people would not be part of it even if it meant sacrificing potential wealth. However if it was owning and growing say a chain of hotels or a plumbing business most would do that.

I agree, I think that is the myth of economic aspiration and 'self-made' wealth that capitalism has perpetuated with such success for years.
I don't think that many people would be truly viscious and ruthless in the style of an Enron exec, but many would happily own or manage a successful business that by default exploits it's workforce (because that's just 'the way things are')

[Hit The North]

The vast majority. I would.

Devrim

Well, if the majority of workers joined the bourgeoisie that would be the end of capitalism right there.

D'you think they'd let us?

[Devrim]

Well, if the majority of workers joined the bourgeoisie that would be the end of capitalism right there.

D'you think they'd let us?

Obviously not. We both know that it is impossible for the majority of the working class to join the bourgeoisie.

I don't think though that it is a question of individual morality but one of class interests, which was what I was trying to allude to in that answer.

What would you do if you won twenty million on the lottery tomorrow? I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital. I suspect most working class people would do something pretty similar.

Devrim

[Hit The North]

Obvious not.

Shame. In my country they are very fond of telling us that we're all in it together. Looks like we'll have to pull them down into our class in order to make that true.


What would you do if you won twenty million on the lottery tomorrow?


I'd invite all members of Revleft over to the UK, at my own expense, to my newly bought mansion for a huge party. :thumbup1:*


I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital.


Wouldn't you get bored?

*FYI, I don't do the lottery.

[citizen of industry]

Obvious not. We both know that it is impossible for the majority of the working class to join the bourgeoisie.

I don't think though that it is a question of individual morality but one of class interests, which was what I was trying to allude to in that answer.

What would you do if you won twenty million on the lottery tomorrow? I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital. I suspect most working class people would do something pretty similar.

Devrim

If I won the lottery I would also live off interest, simply because I hate wage labor. I don't think my ideology would change though, and I'd live modestly because I wouldn't want the money to run out and have to work again. The lottery is for suckers though, I've never played it. So, wage labor, starting in the morning...

[Devrim]

If I won the lottery I would also live off interest, simply because I hate wage labor. I don't think my ideology would change though,

Your ideology isn't the point though. Being a member of the bourgeoisie is not about your ideology, but about your relationship to the means of production. Living off the interest of capital certainly puts you in there.


and I'd live modestly because I wouldn't want the money to run out and have to work againIf I won a (relatively) small amount on the lottery, I would be like that, but people win such huge amounts these days that you wouldn't need to if you won top prize.


The lottery is for suckers though, I've never played it.

It is not something I do often. I think the last time I bought a ticket was the New Year before last. It's a hypothetical question anyway.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital. Wouldn't you get bored?

I don't think so, but I'd be willing to risk it. I have worked full time since I was 15 and after a few decades of work, I am 100% certain that I really get bored doing it. If you were to give me £10,000,000, I would be willing to face the risk of a little boredom.

Devrim

[Yuppie Grinder]

"No picket fence, no job, no 8-Cylinder car (http://rapgenius.com/630232/The-crooklyn-dodgers-return-of-the-crooklyn-dodgers/No-picket-fence-no-job-no-8-cylinder-car)
Blue collar turns to bourgeois (http://rapgenius.com/697493/The-crooklyn-dodgers-return-of-the-crooklyn-dodgers/Blue-collar-turns-to-bourgeois)" - Chubb Rock
All of them?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Not me, I like getting exploited :)

[ed miliband]

where are you trying to go with this?

...

[Krano]

I think we should create a purge list of everyone who says they would defect.

[Prometeo liberado]

Well, if the majority of workers joined the bourgeoisie that would be the end of capitalism right there.

D'you think they'd let us?

I forgot that that's all you have to do. Put in your application, get a sponsor and BAM!! you get the keys to the kingdom.
This thread......you people.....:glare:

[#FF0000]

i think i'd rather drop out of society completely than be boss or a worker.

[officer nugz]

no I would not be a slave driver. fuck you if you would.

[officer nugz]

i read the wall street journals fashion magazine and it makes me want to be richthe only reason to read stuff like that is so you can have specific people in mind for crowbar execution fantasies

[Positivist]

I'd say almost all of them considering the rich are glorified in the first world and conditions are so shitty in the third world that they'd have to be crazy not to. Honestly I myself couldn't though, I understand capitalism too well to square it with my conscience.

[bcbm]

no I would not be a slave driver. fuck you if you would.

who is the slave in, say, devrims example?


the only reason to read stuff like that is so you can have specific people in mind for crowbar execution fantasies

or for the interesting fashions, culture and literary articles, etc...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What would you do if you won twenty million on the lottery tomorrow? I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital. I suspect most working class people would do something pretty similar.
If all you wanted was not to have to be a wage slave anymore, why not give most of it away to other workers or revolutionary groups, and live modestly on the remaining money?

[bcbm]

who would want to live modestly with 50 mil in the bank

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

who would want to live modestly with 50 mil in the bank
If you can live comfortably but modestly without having to work again, isn't that enough?

[bcbm]

no i want nothing short of opulence

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

no i want nothing short of opulence
So you're saying you're already bourgeois, you just don't have the money to go along with it?

[bcbm]

yes

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

yes
:laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Obviously not. We both know that it is impossible for the majority of the working class to join the bourgeoisie.

I don't think though that it is a question of individual morality but one of class interests, which was what I was trying to allude to in that answer.

What would you do if you won twenty million on the lottery tomorrow? I'd never work again and live on the interest from my capital. I suspect most working class people would do something pretty similar.

Devrim

95% of the working class (me included) would do the same. What's that, 500-600k per year interest based on interest rates of 2.5-3%? Yesplease!

I reckon the other 5% would sit round making peace cookies out of soya and preaching about the healing effects of self-immiseration, all the while stashing their money in some 'up and coming' 'for the good of manking' eco-company. So hip.

[Luís Henrique]

I thought this thread would be about what part of the proletariat would line with the bourgeoisie in a revolutionary situation...

Oh well.

On topic, probably everybody except a very smallish minority (the kind of people who join monasteries and whatnot).

Luís Henrique

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Honestly, i believe loteries just exist for the sole purpose of keeping the proletariat in line.
Capitalists made a system where workers actually pay them to get a chance to win a lot of money.
This way the proletariats (think that they) have a chance to become wealthy bourgeoisie.
The result of that believe, is the feeling that being bourgeois isn't half-bad.
Thus does the proletariat keep up the capitalist-system.

It's merely a ploy to keep the workers under...or i'm being paranoid again :D

[Luís Henrique]

Honestly, i believe loteries just exist for the sole purpose of keeping the proletariat in line.
Capitalists made a system where workers actually pay them to get a chance to win a lot of money.
This way the proletariats (think that they) have a chance to become wealthy bourgeoisie.
The result of that believe, is the feeling that being bourgeois isn't half-bad.
Thus does the proletariat keep up the capitalist-system.

It's merely a ploy to keep the workers under...or i'm being paranoid again :D

Perhaps they serve the purpose of renewing the ranks of the bourgeosie, too?

Luís Henrique

[officer nugz]

who is the slave in, say, devrims example?I think when people say bourgeois they are referring to the traditional idea of bourgeois, obviously. the lottery? is that really the best cop-out you all can think of?


or for the interesting fashions, culture and literary articles, etc...eh

[officer nugz]

guys I mean I'm totally against rape culture, but I mean, rape culture isn't an issue of individual morality, so yes I suppose I'd be a rapist.

right

[officer nugz]

you wannabe nihilists. you play as if you don't care about individual morality because it would mean you'd be a part of the ruling class but I bet if someone says faggot you all have a big group hug, right?

[o well this is ok I guess]

who would want to live modestly with 50 mil in the bank Depends how you define modest.
I'd still drink colt 45. Just a lot more of it.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I'd rather be hoodrich than bougie.

[Devrim]

If all you wanted was not to have to be a wage slave anymore, why not give most of it away to other workers or revolutionary groups, and live modestly on the remaining money?

If you live on the interest from your capital, you are a member of the bourgeoisie. Even if you live 'modestly' you are a part of the petit-bourgeoisie, which is still part of the bourgeoisie.


So you're saying you're already bourgeois, you just don't have the money to go along with it?

The adjective 'bourgeois' seems to be used in a completely meaningless way here. For communists class analysis concerns relationships to the means of production. It isn't a political opinion or a state of mind.


I think when people say bourgeois they are referring to the traditional idea of bourgeois, obviously. the lottery? is that really the best cop-out you all can think of?

It was a hypothetical question, but of course a bit of reality injects itself a little into the discussion. I can't think of another way I could get to join the bourgeoisie.After all, as has already been mentioned, they don't hand out membership application forms.

Devrim

[the last donut of the night]

if you call yourself a radical but deny people the chance of riding on 24 inch chrome, you're a jackass