Hugo Chavez Wins Presidential Election & Fourth Term

[RedSonRising]

Official polls are in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/08/hugo-chavez-wins-venezuelan-election?newsfeed=true

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/523289_484274064936482_920197820_n.jpg

[Let's Get Free]

Looks like Washington and the Venezuelan oligarchs will have to put up with him for another 6 years.

[RadioRaheem84]

If I may use this change to ask a question; despite all the success of the Bolivarian Revolution, why has crime risen so high in Caracas?

Also, I am happy for Venezuela.

[RedMaterialist]

"Democracy is the road to socialism." K. Marx

[Althusser]

Wooo

[Red Commissar]

If I may use this change to ask a question; despite all the success of the Bolivarian Revolution, why has crime risen so high in Caracas?

Also, I am happy for Venezuela.

That depends on who you ask really. It really all comes down to the issues with the bureaucracy in some areas which have become prone to bribes from cartels, Venezuela being one of the transit routes the move material. There are cynical analysis from both sides, from Chavez's opponents who claim the government turns a blind eye to it intentionally to somehow further their cause for greater police/militia coverage, and by Chavez's supporters who see it as a conceited effort by outside powers to hurt Venezuela.

In either case, I would say it's probably more indicative that some of the gains and achievements of the Bolivarian program have yet to affect urban poor as strongly as was previously described.


"Democracy is the road to socialism." K. Marx

I wouldn't necessarily equate Chavez's accomplishments with the march to socialism; it's really a left soc dem program with populist banter. The important thing out of Chavez's victory is really one more of psychological- if Chavez had lost it would've been a boon for elements in the Venezuela and elsewhere who wanted to be more reconciliatory to US policies, and encouraged the right-ward drift of "center-left" parties elsewhere in South America. If that translates as a progress for socialist groups, that depends on how you see it.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Hey, at least it's far better than that spoiled capitalist brat called Capriles!

[Die Neue Zeit]

Ha! The scab Chirino didn't figure in those polls!

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

It doesnt matter. He can't abolish capital in Venezuela without Obama (capitalists) sending in troops. Socialism won't arise from votes anyway. Lenin could be reanimated and win the presidency in the USA but the USA would remain capitalist. We need a mass movement in the most powerful and advanced nations (the USA, Russia, China, most of Europe).

Too bad Occupy Wall St, from the begining, was largley a reelect Obama ploy. Once it became clear many of us werent on board with that agenda the left gaurdians kinda pulled the plug. After I catch flack for saying that I'll elaborate.

[Questionable]

It doesnt matter. He can't abolish capital in Venezuela without Obama (capitalists) sending in troops. Socialism won't arise from votes anyway. Lenin could be reanimated and win the presidency in the USA but the USA would remain capitalist. We need a mass movement in the most powerful and advanced nations (the USA, Russia, China, most of Europe).

Too bad Occupy Wall St, from the begining, was largley a reelect Obama ploy. Once it became clear many of us werent on board with that agenda the left gaurdians kinda pulled the plug. After I catch flack for saying that I'll elaborate.

Obviously Chavez isn't going to abolish capitalism but I would rather have a left-leaning progressive who's at least trying to put in social programs and isn't bowing down to US imperialism than some right-wing privatization nut.

[RedSonRising]

I think this discussion on Al Jazeera helps objectively illuminate a lot of issues that could help us continue the discussion on Chavez's leadership and the Bolivarian movement. I personally feel that the reporter on the screen in this clip makes the most sense; there seems to be a problematic focus on charismatic and individualist leadership, and the revolutionary movement hasn't been quite so revolutionary. Despite this, clearly health and housing and education standards have greatly increased since Chavez took office, particularly with help from Cuban doctors.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/06/20126136331625534.html


If I may use this change to ask a question; despite all the success of the Bolivarian Revolution, why has crime risen so high in Caracas?

Also, I am happy for Venezuela.

This is one of the biggest problems in Venezuela, and a main sticking point for middle and upper class voters. This video directly addresses the question-Why Is Venezuela So Violent?

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/06/20126554927373645.html

Personally, I think Chavez's reformism has done less to weaken capitalism than it has proven that going against market principles within a market system will end up hurting the economy. Despite all of its hierarchies and social contradictions, capitalism does better when wealth is moving around and being invested. What Chavez has done by going half-way with his nationalizations and expropriations within the last decade is make investors terrified of investing, encouraging the ruling class to hoard their wealth instead of risk their capital, while workers' empowerment only creeps into certain sectors of industry. This I think indirectly influences the problem of unemployed and desperate people turning to narcotrafficking and crime and such. I understand he can't start pulling a Castro left and right with respect to the nation's productive resources, but it's a conundrum with real social consequences.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Obviously Chavez isn't going to abolish capitalism but I would rather have a left-leaning progressive who's at least trying to put in social programs and isn't bowing down to US imperialism than some right-wing privatization nut.

Ya, I like what he's doing with the Peoples Bank thing (bank of the south) I just don't like the idea of socialism being 'voted in'.



His efforts are meant to help the people in the region but the people of the world, all of us, need to stand up and help ourselves, as in, DEMAND a change in the economic system. Leaders be dammed :)

[#FF0000]

Kind of have to ask what sort of socialism Chavez has got in Venezuela if it's gone if his party loses an election.

Still happy he won though because a lot of people are really really mad and it is beautiful to see haha

[Ostrinski]

"Can't wait to see what this social democrat elected within a capitalist framework can do to bring about socialism!"- said no distinguished socialist ever.

Cynicism aside, how many more times is this man going to get elected? When he's about to pass on, are his constituents going to bloat the streets demanding a veto of his death?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Kind of have to ask what sort of socialism Chavez has got in Venezuela if it's gone if his party loses an election.


I don't really see that as something negative, to be fair, in the sense that there is clearly quite a thriving and participatory democracy in Venezuela, on the one hand.

I think what we can criticise is not that the political system can be voted in or not, but that the political system, if we're being honest, can come and go with the election or not of one man. That is the main sticking point for me, and the difference between Chavez's sort of halfway house kind of 'Socialism', and a genuine worker led revolution.

Still, felicidades a Chavez y la PSUV! :)

[sixdollarchampagne]

if Chavez had lost it would've been a boon for elements in the Venezuela and elsewhere who wanted to be more reconciliatory to US policies, and encouraged the right-ward drift of "center-left" parties elsewhere in South America. If that translates as a progress for socialist groups, that depends on how you see it.

It seems difficult to imagine anyone more "reconciliatory to US policies" than Hugo Chávez, who has unfailingly continued selling vast amounts of oil to the US during wartime. Given the undeniable fact of, what is it? 1.5 million barrels of oil daily, I believe, that Chávez sends to the US – despite all Chávez' completely phony "anti"-imperialist rhetoric – the maximum leader of the Bolivarian "Socialist" Republic of Venezuela really should be recognized as a staunch friend of US power in the world , which is the furthest thing possible from being any kind of "revolutionary."

[Rusty Shackleford]

Hooooooray!




(still no PSL jokes yet? im actually disappointed now)

[Artemis3]

It seems difficult to imagine anyone more "reconciliatory to US policies" than Hugo Chávez, who has unfailingly continued selling vast amounts of oil to the US during wartime. Given the undeniable fact of, what is it? 1.5 million barrels of oil daily, I believe, that Chávez sends to the US – despite all Chávez' completely phony "anti"-imperialist rhetoric – the maximum leader of Bolivarian "Socialist" Republic of Venezuela really should be recognized as a staunch friend of US power in the world , which is the furthest thing imaginable from being any kind of "revolutionary"

You are correct, unfortunately the US gov and friends don't agree; which is why Venezuela purchases things elsewhere, including other "evil" countries, whom at least are willing to transfer the technology.

Also, most of these oil barrels go to Venezuela's Citgo refineries and its distribution network. PDVSA is now basically ready to replace USA with China, in case something occurs that makes Venezuela lose Citgo.

[Sanja]

Woohoo :D :thumbup1:

[REDSOX]

Great victory for chavez and for the cause of socialism!!!

Update to election results with 97% of the results in

Hugo chavez is now on 7.8 million votes 55%

Capriles radonski is on 6.3 million 45%


Orlando chirinos the scab and demagogue a pathetic 0.02%

With 3% of the votes to come chavez might make 8 million votes

[Crimson Commissar]

Good to see I suppose, avoiding having another ultra-capitalist pro-US government in the world certainly can't be a bad thing. But let's see if Chavez can stay true to his promises on achieving Socialism in his next term, eh? :rolleyes:

[the last donut of the night]

Kind of have to ask what sort of socialism Chavez has got in Venezuela if it's gone if his party loses an election.

Still happy he won though because a lot of people are really really mad and it is beautiful to see haha

lol not a chavista but i have to admit i love seeing the venezuelan gusanos mad

[Human Lefts]

Kind of have to ask what sort of socialism Chavez has got in Venezuela if it's gone if his party loses an election.

Still happy he won though because a lot of people are really really mad and it is beautiful to see haha

Nice! Nestor Kichner told Chavez that he can't be the only one responsible because once he is gone, then it will be lost.

[maskerade]

If I may use this change to ask a question; despite all the success of the Bolivarian Revolution, why has crime risen so high in Caracas?

Also, I am happy for Venezuela.

Crime has mostly risen in the regions/cities controlled by the opposition. Mayor of Caracas, for example, is a critic of Hugo Chavez and he doesn't really seem to be doing much about it.

And as some other members posted, it is a drug trafficking point from colombia, and as colombia continues to get destabilized by the American war on drugs the overburdened Venezuela will take the heat

[REDSOX]

Update on vote from the electoral commision in venezuela

With 96% of votes counted

Hugo chavez 8.044 million 55.11%

Capriles radonski 6.4 million 44.27%

Orlando chirinos 4 thousand and 47 votes 0.02%!!!!:)

All data rounded up

[Red Commissar]

lol not a chavista but i have to admit i love seeing the venezuelan gusanos mad

Haha, I like that too. Another area I'm at has two Venezuelans who're rabidly anti-Chavez, one living in Caracas and the other in Panama as an expat who're fuming angry at this. They won't say it but I'm pretty sure they're from, or at least were, "middle-class" by Venezuelan standards.

Another fellow I know of at my university is a turbo-gusano, young Republicans and everything, and is bemoaning the death of democracy and the US not being more "tough" on Venezuela.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I keep finding myself defending Venezuela and Chavez on other websites and to my friends and shit even though I really don't give a crap. Just hate it when people are uninformed and call democratically elected people 'evil dictators', especially considering the huge swathes of the population that are no longer living in poverty thanks to Chavez's reforms. I don't even like Chavez but I got called a 'brainwashed chavista'... D:

[RadioRaheem84]

Crime has mostly risen in the regions/cities controlled by the opposition. Mayor of Caracas, for example, is a critic of Hugo Chavez and he doesn't really seem to be doing much about it.

And as some other members posted, it is a drug trafficking point from colombia, and as colombia continues to get destabilized by the American war on drugs the overburdened Venezuela will take the heat

What can be done?

[Prometeo liberado]

If I may use this change to ask a question; despite all the success of the Bolivarian Revolution, why has crime risen so high in Caracas?

Also, I am happy for Venezuela.

Ask yourself, have the material conditions changed?

[Peoples' War]

This time around, Chavez will hand over political power to the workers, and Venezuela will have a DOTP! :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong, Chavez and his party are certainly the more favorable choice. However, the bureacracy of Chavez is in power, not the workers. Chavez will soon be gone, and this bureaucracy will take his place rather than just influence him.

So many idiots in this thread who think Chavez can introduce socialism from above. Not a workers revolution, no workers power, bourgeoisie still a political force (44% of the vote btw), yet we have great glorious socialism under comrade Chavez!

What a joke.

[Artemis3]

I don't even like Chavez but I got called a 'brainwashed chavista'... D:

Yes, that's the effect of the Venezuelan opposition to anyone daring not to think like them; their fascist attitude tends to quickly push people to the other side...

[maskerade]

What can be done?

dismantling of the police and creation of a new popular militia that puts the security of communities under direct control of such communities (this is something the government is doing now i believe). Then i suppose Chavez along with other South American nations could continue to pressure and agitate for a decriminalization of drugs in the region (though Chavez is a bit old school on this issue, doesn't really dig the whole hippie thing).

Whether these things could solve the rising murder rates is uncertain though. i personally don't believe that more policing etc will help but i'm sure from Chavez's standpoint cosmetic changes like that would be beneficial

[Crux]

Venezuelean elections 2012: (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5985)
Chávez defeats the right (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5985)

[Hiero]

Who is Orlando Chirinos?

[Crux]

Who is Orlando Chirinos?
Some guy.

[Delenda Carthago]

Does anyone know what the Communist Party of Venezuela says about the results?

[Artemis3]

Does anyone know what the Communist Party of Venezuela says about the results?

PCV is one of the parties supporting Chavez, and in fact the second with most votes, after PSUV.

"We have inflicted an strategic defeat to imperialism and international Zionism"
3JRrVQCQqzs

"PCV will not promote an alliance with the oligarchy, but with the people"
YP4kZsI8voQ

[Artemis3]

dismantling of the police and creation of a new popular militia that puts the security of communities under direct control of such communities (this is something the government is doing now i believe). Then i suppose Chavez along with other South American nations could continue to pressure and agitate for a decriminalization of drugs in the region (though Chavez is a bit old school on this issue, doesn't really dig the whole hippie thing).

Whether these things could solve the rising murder rates is uncertain though. i personally don't believe that more policing etc will help but i'm sure from Chavez's standpoint cosmetic changes like that would be beneficial

We might be half-way there, sort of. There is a state sponsored popular militia, trained to use rifles and military weapons, but the weapons are not in their hands, they are meant to be distributed "only in an extreme situation"...

In Caracas, the old "metropolitan" police was disbanded, to be replaced by a "national" police, with a "humanitarian emphasis" and "proportionate use of force", it's effectiveness is still to be seen. In addition, this new police is promoting the creation of "communal police".

Crime in Venezuela is not really related to small "hippy" drug use, and the media usually ignores that. There is violence related to drug trafficking, robbery and kidnappings; also murders over love or debt affairs, and gangs. Firearm ownership is heavily restricted now, but there is still plenty of 'em, and of course the illegal traffic of firearms and munition is the better business now.

There is also the large land owners sending hired killers against small landless farmers taking abandoned land, only when the National Guard or Army provides protection, can the farmers develop, but many have been killed and is a permanent struggle in the countryside.

Venezuela is used for transit, and from time to time large drug cargo gets confiscated, and burned, often in tons; usually for North America and Europe. Venezuela broke with DEA, because they often allowed the cargo to go on, and most of it would be "lost" before any action took place in US soil. From that point on, the US labels Venezuela as some sort of "drug paradise", that is false, but many drug lords from elsewhere have come (and fallen) thinking it was true... There is also the insertion of Colombian para-military forces in some border states and main urban cities forming gangs, drug trafficking, etc.

Should drugs be magically allowed in Venezuela, i doubt the violence would lower at all. You would still be a target as long as you look like you have money or step in the wrong place.

Chávez is trying the "humanitarian way", but this is not making results and people are getting desperate. Our Judicial system is a joke, corrupt and inefficient, this is causing a lot of impunity. This is one of the main flaws.

If a mobilized community traps someone who did something, such as killing, and the police is not there, chance is high for a lynching. People knows criminals can often get out of prison after a few years, and every prison is a powerful mob, some even kill the prison director when they fail to obey "the inmate boss" (Pran). They simply give the order and killers outside do the job. Suffice to say, prisons are drug and arm abundant; from time to time there are massacres inside from rival gangs.

There is only a small exception (that i know) of a community under a de-facto anarchist security rule, outlawed of course; but still real in areas of 23 de Enero; if a gang or drug trafficker attempts getting there, they "take care" of it. Unchecked, there have been some excesses, but for good or worse, that particular community is basically clean; and the state can't (or don't want) to get rid of them. One of their groups even backed Chavez in the election, since they have a political party registered and all...

They formed in the 90ies after the massacres both the police and army committed in 89 when the people collectively revolted against neo-liberalism, the event known as "Caracazo" whose aftermath involved policemen and even soldiers being ordered to randomly shoot at poor communities for whatever reason (this enraged a faction inside the military, and from that comes the failed Chávez coup in 92). That community swore to let no policemen or soldier in there no more, some of those groups still remain to this day.

[Yazman]

This isn't the "great victory" or the success that everybody is calling it.

Capriles got almost 45% of the vote, with a turnout of just over 80%. That means pretty close to half the adults in the entire country aren't willing to even support Bolivarian politics at the ballot box, let alone support wide reaching social, political, or economic changes to the status quo.

It's a bad sign, imo, and it means the government isn't really doing it's job if almost half the damn country think they would be better off with a right wing pro-capitalist running the country.

[The Douche]

Some guy.

I laughed at your response, but lets try and tighten up, since this is the politics forum. Setting bad examples and all.;)

[Crux]

This isn't the "great victory" or the success that everybody is calling it.

Capriles got almost 45% of the vote, with a turnout of just over 80%. That means pretty close to half the adults in the entire country aren't willing to even support Bolivarian politics at the ballot box, let alone support wide reaching social, political, or economic changes to the status quo.

It's a bad sign, imo, and it means the government isn't really doing it's job if almost half the damn country think they would be better off with a right wing pro-capitalist running the country.
uhm. Over 80% particpation is not low. and speaking in pure numbers Chavez actually got more votes this election than the last one. Another key difference was that the right had a united candidate this time around, and they also tried to pose as "center-left" claiming to not want to tear up most of Chavez wellfare reforms, pose being the key-word here. Clearly Chavez has won enough popular support for his program that the right do not dare challenge much of it publically. Of course "we will throw the countries poor back decades, increase poverty and put the oligarchy back in the driving seat" might not be an as appealing slogan as "another way is possible!" and claiming to be inspired by Lula.

[Crux]

I laughed at your response, but lets try and tighten up, since this is the politics forum. Setting bad examples and all.;)
Well okay, what I know of Chirinos is that he is a trade-union activist and opposed to Chavez from the left, though I don't know by how much or what other issues he might have. If he is from the old trade union, it's worth remembering they were notoriously corrupt. But if he was really terrible he would've probably joined up with the right, like MAS and PODEMOS, venezuelas social democratic parties, have. Also DNZ hates him so I guess he can't be all bad.

[Yazman]

uhm. Over 80% particpation is not low. and speaking in pure numbers Chavez actually got more votes this election than the last one. Another key difference was that the right had a united candidate this time around, and they also tried to pose as "center-left" claiming to not want to tear up most of Chavez wellfare reforms, pose being the key-word here. Clearly Chavez has won enough popular support for his program that the right do not dare challenge much of it publically. Of course "we will throw the countries poor back decades, increase poverty and put the oligarchy back in the driving seat" might not be an as appealing slogan as "another way is possible!" and claiming to be inspired by Lula.

What on earth are you talking about? Where did I say that 80% participation was low? The fact that it's a high turnout is central to what I was saying.

I said that with 80% turnout, Capriles got ~44% of the vote - meaning with a high turnout, almost half the population able to vote in the entire country do not think Hugo Chavez should be president. You can try to explain that away all you want by criticising Capriles (who deserves to be criticised) but the fact is, 44% of the voting population voted for him. That's almost half the country.

When almost half of the country chooses a candidate who is openly pro-capitalist, and Chavez only got 5% over 50% (he got 55%), that is not even remotely close to what I would call a victory. I would call a victory or a success much higher.

In fact, in the last presidential election, the opposition candidate only got 36%, and Chavez had 62%. Regardless of how you look at it it's a massive jump in votes for openly pro-capitalist candidates - 44% in 2012 vs 36% in 2006. Using your 'pure numbers argument' Chavez gained ~800,000 votes (7.3mn in 2006, 8.1mn in 2012), whereas the right wing opposition gained (4.3mn in 2006, 6.5mn in 2012) ~2.2 million votes. Yes, technically you are correct that in the pure numbers, Chavez gained some votes, but the reality is that in the same argument the right wing gained literally millions, while also gaining a much higher proportion of the population, whereas Chavez' gains were minimal at best, and proportionally, were actually a loss. The 'pure numbers' are higher, but so is the population, and the numbers themselves actually shifted DRASTICALLY in favour of the right wing, so Chavez didn't gain anything, but lost in all fronts.

So regardless of how you look at it, support has only increased for openly pro-capitalist candidates, and with an 11% difference in the votes between Chavez & Capriles, I would NOT call that a great victory at all, especially when the last time a Presidential election occurred, the difference was 26%, more than double the difference in this year's election.

Finally, like I said - almost half of the entire voting population refused to vote for Chavez and chose Capriles, an openly pro-capitalist candidate, 2.2mn more than they voted for the last such candidate in 2006. 44% of the entire country's voting population! That's 6.5mn people who are, in principle, opposed to Bolivarian politics! How is that good?

The proportion of voters, and the number of voters, voting for pro-capitalist candidates shouldn't be increasing. It should be decreasing.

I can understand being happy Chavez was re-elected, but it's not a victory.

A victory would be Chavez getting at least as much as he did in 2006 - 62%, or more - 70%, 75%. Half the country doesn't think he should be president now, whereas before it was only just over a third. That isn't a successful result no matter how I look at it.

[Luís Henrique]

"We have inflicted an strategic defeat to imperialism and international Zionism"

How exactly was Chavez's victory a defeat for "international Zionism"?

That sentence stinks.

Luís Henrique

[Artemis3]

When almost half of the country chooses a candidate who is openly pro-capitalist, and Chavez only got 5% over 50% (he got 55%), that is not even remotely close to what I would call a victory. I would call a victory or a success much higher.

You are in fact wrong about the candidate being "openly pro-capitalist". The opposition tried to disguise this fact, as said by Majakovskij, Capriles posed as center left, and declared to admire Lula Da Silva...

Final numbers are 55,25% Chavez, 44,13% Capriles and 0.62% others, with an 80.67% participation (voting is not compulsory in Venezuela).

Both candidates gained followers, but the opposition gained more than Chávez compared to the previous election, just not enough to defeat him. They tried to exploit resentment against his figure, instead of antagonizing his program. The opposition knows people despises capitalism, and can't simply mention the word, or other neo-liberal parlance. Unfortunately for Capriles, he with other opposition pre-candidates signed a very long document in January promising to implement about a thousand measures, many obviously neo-liberal, so people did not fall for it.

Capriles in the end attempted to convince voters that he would keep the social programs (known as "missions") started by Chávez, which contradicts his own actions when he got into his actual local government position as governor of Miranda state, AND his signing of the aforementioned document, which his backers would obviously demand him to comply with (again, US is involved, with funding from NED, USAID, etc).

This was not a "landslide" victory, but its a solid victory no less. Some countries need over 51% of votes to avoid a second round against the second best. That said there are urgent problems that need to be addressed. The Communist Party wants a meeting with Chávez to discuss, IMO the obvious reformists actions of late.

As for Chirino, he got 4105 votes out from 15010256 casted. We can safely keep the "some guy" explanation :)

Well he claims to represent a trotskyist / morenoist alternative for a workers government. His party (Opción Obrera) calls for refounding of the IV international. According to RCIT, he sided with MUD (right-fascist coalition) in the past.

[Artemis3]

How exactly was Chavez's victory a defeat for "international Zionism"?

That sentence stinks.

Ask the communist party, i only did the translation.

Zionism is a political/secular movement, i hope you do know that...

I would guess, that, because Zionists don't like Chavez, him winning was a symbolic defeat to them. You should remember Venezuela broke relations with Israel (a product of Zionism) when they briefly invaded Lebanon.

Chavez is not anti-semite, before you even think of that garbage; and Jews and Zionists are not the same, see: http://www.nkusa.org/

[Crux]

What on earth are you talking about? Where did I say that 80% participation was low? The fact that it's a high turnout is central to what I was saying.

I said that with 80% turnout, Capriles got ~44% of the vote - meaning with a high turnout, almost half the population able to vote in the entire country do not think Hugo Chavez should be president. You can try to explain that away all you want by criticising Capriles (who deserves to be criticised) but the fact is, 44% of the voting population voted for him. That's almost half the country.

When almost half of the country chooses a candidate who is openly pro-capitalist, and Chavez only got 5% over 50% (he got 55%), that is not even remotely close to what I would call a victory. I would call a victory or a success much higher.

In fact, in the last presidential election, the opposition candidate only got 36%, and Chavez had 62%. Regardless of how you look at it it's a massive jump in votes for openly pro-capitalist candidates - 44% in 2012 vs 36% in 2006. Using your 'pure numbers argument' Chavez gained ~800,000 votes (7.3mn in 2006, 8.1mn in 2012), whereas the right wing opposition gained (4.3mn in 2006, 6.5mn in 2012) ~2.2 million votes. Yes, technically you are correct that in the pure numbers, Chavez gained some votes, but the reality is that in the same argument the right wing gained literally millions, while also gaining a much higher proportion of the population, whereas Chavez' gains were minimal at best, and proportionally, were actually a loss. The 'pure numbers' are higher, but so is the population, and the numbers themselves actually shifted DRASTICALLY in favour of the right wing, so Chavez didn't gain anything, but lost in all fronts.

So regardless of how you look at it, support has only increased for openly pro-capitalist candidates, and with an 11% difference in the votes between Chavez & Capriles, I would NOT call that a great victory at all, especially when the last time a Presidential election occurred, the difference was 26%, more than double the difference in this year's election.

Finally, like I said - almost half of the entire voting population refused to vote for Chavez and chose Capriles, an openly pro-capitalist candidate, 2.2mn more than they voted for the last such candidate in 2006. 44% of the entire country's voting population! That's 6.5mn people who are, in principle, opposed to Bolivarian politics! How is that good?

The proportion of voters, and the number of voters, voting for pro-capitalist candidates shouldn't be increasing. It should be decreasing.

I can understand being happy Chavez was re-elected, but it's not a victory.

A victory would be Chavez getting at least as much as he did in 2006 - 62%, or more - 70%, 75%. Half the country doesn't think he should be president now, whereas before it was only just over a third. That isn't a successful result no matter how I look at it.
It's like you didn't take in a single thing I wrote. And, no in its' not a "great" victory, but a victory none the less. The fact that the right-wing could only gain on the basis of appropriating, rhetorically but not actually, parts of Chavez program should tell you something. Artemis3 responded very well, so I'll leave it at that. You could also check out the CWI/Socialismo Revolucionario statement if you want a longer analysis.

[Luís Henrique]

Ask the communist party, i only did the translation.

Sure.

Luís Henrique

[Ocean Seal]

Glad to see rightwingers pissed off. Chavez hasn't been too competent in the last few years unfortunately. Also why is this Orlando guy a scab? (Just asking I don't know anything about him).

[Crux]

Glad to see rightwingers pissed off. Chavez hasn't been too competent in the last few years unfortunately. Also why is this Orlando guy a scab? (Just asking I don't know anything about him).
He's accused of cooperating or having cooperated at some point in some fashion with the right-wing opposition.

[RedSonRising]

This isn't the "great victory" or the success that everybody is calling it.

Capriles got almost 45% of the vote, with a turnout of just over 80%. That means pretty close to half the adults in the entire country aren't willing to even support Bolivarian politics at the ballot box, let alone support wide reaching social, political, or economic changes to the status quo.

It's a bad sign, imo, and it means the government isn't really doing it's job if almost half the damn country think they would be better off with a right wing pro-capitalist running the country.

Good points.

[zimmerwald1915]

Capriles got almost 45% of the vote, with a turnout of just over 80%. That means pretty close to half the adults in the entire country aren't willing to even support Bolivarian politics at the ballot box, let alone support wide reaching social, political, or economic changes to the status quo.


Final numbers are 55,25% Chavez, 44,13% Capriles and 0.62% others, with an 80.67% participation (voting is not compulsory in Venezuela).
Quick translation of those numbers into percentage of people of voting age:

Chavez: 44.57%
Capriles: 35.60%
Others: 0.50%

See those Capriles numbers? "A little over a third of the country" does not equate to "almost half the country". Not unless you're being extremely imprecise.

[REDSOX]

Final tally of votes in(rounded up) Turnout 81% (a record)

Hugo chavez frias 8.1 million votes 55.25%

Capriles radonski 6.5 million votes 44.14%

A margin of 11% which is a lanslide

Others 0.61%

A decisive victory of 1.6 million votes

Also to point out that compared to 2006 presidential elections Chavez increased his majority by about 800,000 and the opposition by about 2.3 million. However compared to the last national election contest in the 2010 parlimentary elections chavez increased his vote from 5.5 million votes to 8.1 million a rise of 2.6 million!! and the opposition in the same time period increased its vote by about 1000,000 million votes from 5.6 million to 6.5 million!! Hardly an opposition triumph!!. A lot of chavez supporters abstained in that election in 2010 because there as a genuine sense of unhappiness in how the candidates were selected but they came back in droves to back chavez this time. It will be interesting to see what happens in the gubanatorial races in december this year. Last time the opposition won 8 regions the chavistas 16 regions.

However the election was a bitter blow for the rich of venezuela and the imperialists and 8 million votes for socialism i am sure unnerves them enormously. Now the task is to complete the building of socialism in venezuela and hopefully six years will be longer enough to do it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Also DNZ hates him so I guess he can't be all bad.

You'd have thought otherwise if you actually looked up the 2007 referendum. :rolleyes:

[Crux]

You'd have thought otherwise if you actually looked up the 2007 referendum. :rolleyes:
So tell me, DNZ, who was the Third World Ceasarian Candidate? I'm joking of course, since there is no such thing. I can't say I have very positive view of Chirinos, but do tell me more, you might be able to change my mind.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, first off I don't know your organization's position back then on that referendum, but that scab was against the measures proposed.