Jesse Ventura Considers Himself A Libertarian Marxist | The Daily ...

[The Idler]

Jesse Ventura Considers Himself A Libertarian Marxist | The Daily ... (http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/03/thedc-morning-what-is-a-libertarian-marxist/)

[ed miliband]

i'm not the type who gets an inordinate amount of pleasure from saying "there's no such thing as libertarian marxism!!!!!!" like some on here, but he clearly doesn't have a clue what he's chatting about.

who is he?

[Rafiq]

What a fucking clown. Fucking hate those... Oliver Stone-esque scum.

[Ostrinski]

He was governor of Minnesota. He's a former professional wrestler. He's also a conspiracy nut.

[Rafiq]

i'm not the type who gets an inordinate amount of pleasure from saying "there's no such thing as libertarian marxism!!!!!!" like some on here, but he clearly doesn't have a clue what he's chatting about.

who is he?

He's a former wrestling star or something.

Anyway, "Libertarian Marxism" doesn't exist. You can, maybe, be a Marxist and a "libertarian socialist" simultaneously, but there isn't such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" considering Marxism isn't an ideology.

[ed miliband]

i bet his "marxism" is little more than some structurally anti-semitic bollocks about bankers controlling the world, then.

[Ostrinski]

I guess only Americans/people who know who this clown is can really appreciate the magnitude of how hilarious this is.

[leftistman]

He never said that he was a Marxist, he said that communism is good in theory but bad in practice. Libertarian Marxists don't endorse Ron Paul, by the way.

[Drosophila]

Umm..where exactly did he say that he's a "Libertarian Marxist?" All I see is this: “The Communism of Karl Marx would probably be actually the best for everybody as a whole,” he explained. “But what he didn’t figure into was human nature and that’s what corrupts it.”

Doesn't sound like a Marxist to me.

[Peoples' War]

Libertarian Marxism is just a phrase people, holy fuck. It encompasses councillism, left communism, etc.

But yeah, I doubt this guy is a Marxist in any sense.

[Prometeo liberado]

This stupid lout has been all over the place, politically speaking. Not worthy of being spoken about here for sure. Pretty sure.

[Questionable]

Umm..where exactly did he say that he's a "Libertarian Marxist?" All I see is this: “The Communism of Karl Marx would probably be actually the best for everybody as a whole,” he explained. “But what he didn’t figure into was human nature and that’s what corrupts it.”

Doesn't sound like a Marxist to me.



This bullshit always cracks me up.

Yep, Marx never said anything about human nature. Didn't write an entire book about it, didn't address the "human nature" argument in a certain famous book published over 100 years ago, nope, he totally forgot about human nature.

[l'Enfermé]

Isn't he a wrestler? Who cares what he says?

[Crux]

All he did was say some sort of true things about Cuba. He is still a crackpot.

[l'Enfermé]

i bet his "marxism" is little more than some structurally anti-semitic bollocks about bankers controlling the world, then.
No no no that's not libertartarian Marxism, that's cultural Marxism. :rolleyes:


He's a former wrestling star or something.

Anyway, "Libertarian Marxism" doesn't exist. You can, maybe, be a Marxist and a "libertarian socialist" simultaneously, but there isn't such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" considering Marxism isn't an ideology.
Many forget this, not realizing that for Marx, "ideology" was sort of a dirty word and something that's automatically false by virtue of being ideology. For him, ideology is what is used to hide the truth.

[soso17]

As far as I've seen, Ventura is a populist and an opportunist. He was elected by promising things that a short-sighted population really liked at that moment, so it's no surprise that his politics jump all over the place. His campaign was more suited to a student council election than a gubernatorial one.

"Rap music piped into the cafeteria! No math class! Coke machines in every hallway!"

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ed miliband]

No no no that's not libertartarian Marxism, that's cultural Marxism. :rolleyes:

what you on about?

[Ostrinski]

Whew.. I was cringing at the prospects of having this loony tune associated with Marxists.

I can see it now, it becomes a media spectacle, a social meme even, and then every time you said you were a Marxist you were met with "but.. Jesse Ventura!"

[Rafiq]

Libertarian Marxism is just a phrase people, holy fuck. It encompasses councillism, left communism, etc.

But yeah, I doubt this guy is a Marxist in any sense.

Uh huh, that's fine and all, except for the fact that this would make it "Libertarian Socialism" or what you will, not "Libertarian Marxism" which makes absolutely no sense since Marxism isn't inherently Communist and is nothing short of a mode of analysis and mode of thought, part of which seeks to understand the origins of "Communism" and "Liberalism", not unequivicoally identify with them. Majority of Marxists are Communists because they are able to understand the several contradictions within the capitalist mode of production, and of course, we cannot forget Kautsky's merger of the Marxist intelligentsia and the revolutionary proletariat (which of course explains the decline of Marxism in academia as a result of the international defeat of the proletariat in the 90's).

[Rafiq]

This bullshit always cracks me up.

Yep, Marx never said anything about human nature. Didn't write an entire book about it, didn't address the "human nature" argument in a certain famous book published over 100 years ago, nope, he totally forgot about human nature.

It's not even that, it's, back then, intellectuals weren't as stupid as they are now, stupid enough to bring up such an argument in the first place. Don't people realize that one of the foundational arguments put forward by Bourgeois- Liberalism is this destruction of a harmonious human nature nature (as a concept), i.e. "Know your place, your father was a stone mason and his father as well, making you a stone mason", or, a 'natural order of things'. I mean, don't they realize that towards the end of Feudalism, reactionaries and feudal conservatives asserted that Feudalism is a product of human nature and that Bourgeois-Liberal development (democracy, etc.) is an abomination imposed upon the natural order of things? They have forgotten. It's almost ironic, a hundred years later. I'd imagine during Marx's time, when Feudalism was still existent, it was fresh in the minds of most, if not all intellectuals.

And, furthermore, if Capitalism "serves" our human nature, that implies that within us there is a magical construct which is best expressed through capitalism. If it was inside of us all along, and humans as we know them have existed for 200,000 years, why then, are capitalist relations so relatively new? (300-400 years old).

[RedAnarchist]

I had never heard of this guy until this thread, then I checked Wikipedia. Just another idiot who has no idea what he is talking about.

[Agathor]

He's a former wrestling star or something.

Anyway, "Libertarian Marxism" doesn't exist. You can, maybe, be a Marxist and a "libertarian socialist" simultaneously, but there isn't such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" considering Marxism isn't an ideology.

Well, there's a well established tradition of people who are libertarian socialists and marxists - Luxemburg, Pannekoek, arguably Marx. I think that's all it's supposed to refer to.

[Rafiq]

Well, there's a well established tradition of people who are libertarian socialists and marxists - Luxemburg, Pannekoek, arguably Marx. I think that's all it's supposed to refer to.

Yes, there are, and they tend to be councilists. I wouldn't consider luxemburg a libertarian. The thought of Marx as one is nothing short of laughable. However, whatever it is that compelled them to call themselves Libertarians, it certaintly wasn't Marxism.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Okay, reading the Castro article, they weren't using Libertarian Marxist in the same way as a small group of leftists use it. They mentioned him being a Libertarian, and then spazzed about him being sympathetic to Castro and the "communist" government in Cuba. They're using Libertarian as in Mises to make a joke about polar opposites, or some crap like that. Libertarian Marxist as in Misesian-Marxist.


But yeah, for you guys not from the US, he's a well-known asshat and general conspiracy nut here. He even has a TV show about conspiracy theories.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Dont hate, Predator was brillitant
this is quite silly tho

[DasFapital]

I watched some of his conspiracy show. I remember on scene where him and alex jones found some large plastic molds stacked up next a highway under construction and concluded they were coffins for the FEMA concentration camps. some classic dumb ass moments on that show.

[Yazman]

MODERATOR ACTION:


Another Famous Communist?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/181/367/closeenough.png?1317606898


Oh hell no this dude did not just..
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSF7JNCy19tncrpxtgajGossX-4lt2l6KrUbie_iDM0Z-qxtobl



This isn't chit chat, one-liners and joke posts like these aren't allowed here. Make a constructive post or don't post anything at all. Do it again and I'm infracting you.

This is a warning to Ocean Seal and Ostrinski.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Actually after reading the piece, it seems like it's the article author who is more confused than Jesse Ventura (other than the fundamental confusions which make Ventura a Libertarian in the first place). So the author doesn't mean that Jesse is a revolutionary anarchist, the author means he's a Libertarian who likes Marx.

Ventura just seemed to have views typical of Ron Paul libertarians we might run into in our communities - forign policy isolationism. Ventura basically seemed to say, "Cuba and North Korea are running their own countries, we shouldn't worry about that". The author of the article seemed to represent a far more standard conservative position and so was very confused and shocked by someone who doesn't think the US is constantly about to be invaded by some small depressed country somewhere.

Jessie's line about "Marxism being a good idea, but impossible in action" is basically the view of 80% of conservatives and liberals in the US.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I usually disregard anything that comes out of the mouth of a celebrity so I do not see the story here, to be honest.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I usually disregard anything that comes out of the mouth of a celebrity so I do not see the story here, to be honest.You mean anything political? Otherwise you're totally missing out comrade! Celebs say the darndest things sometimes.:lol:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Anyway, "Libertarian Marxism" doesn't exist. You can, maybe, be a Marxist and a "libertarian socialist" simultaneously, but there isn't such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" considering Marxism isn't an ideology.
Don't be pedantic. If one can "maybe" be a libertarian socialist and a Marxist simultaneously, isn't that just "maybe" what libertarian Marxist means? Marxism as applied by a libertarian socialist = libertarian Marxism. The fact that Marxism isn't an ideology? Not sure how that's even relevant.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Well, there's a well established tradition of people who are libertarian socialists and marxists - Luxemburg, Pannekoek, arguably Marx. I think that's all it's supposed to refer to.

Lol.

I'm pretty sure that Luxemburg would disagree greatly with being called a "libertarian" and libertarian socialists must be really reaching by wanting to include Luxemburg in their lists of thinkers.

[Marxaveli]

Don't be pedantic. If one can "maybe" be a libertarian socialist and a Marxist simultaneously, isn't that just "maybe" what libertarian Marxist means? Marxism as applied by a libertarian socialist = libertarian Marxism. The fact that Marxism isn't an ideology? Not sure how that's even relevant.

Rafiq is actually right. 'Libertarian' and 'Authoritarian' are ideologies, Marxism is not an ideology, it is a science. Now, you can be a libertarian socialist and a Marxist at the same time, but there is technically no such thing as "Libertarian Marxism".....Anyone from a libertarian socialist all the way to a Stalinist can be a Marxist, and use Marxist analysis to understand any given material conditions. You dont even really have to be a communist to be a Marxist, though indeed most Marxists are also communist. A Libertarian Marxist would imply that Marxism is an ideology (as opposed to an Authoritarian Marxist), and it most certainly isnt. Stalinism and libertarian socialism ARE ideologies.

Everyone has their personal ideology and politics. I would probably be classified as a Left Communist, but that is the problem with the left today: we focus too much on theory and ideology, and thus we are divided. Marxism is a science that is (or at least should be) used to objectively understand and critically analyze the problems in class systems, and it should be this science that unifies the left into a power again, putting ideologies aside. Theory is fine and fun to discuss, but we need a tool to make theory a reality, and that tool is the science of Marxism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Rafiq is actually right. 'Libertarian' and 'Authoritarian' are ideologies, Marxism is not an ideology, it is a science. Now, you can be a libertarian socialist and a Marxist at the same time, but there is technically no such thing as "Libertarian Marxism".
And technically a cheeseburger is a hamburger with cheese. Marxism as applied by a libertarian socialist = libertarian Marxism. You know that's how it's being used, but you'd rather feign ignorance and be pedantic about it.


Everyone has their personal ideology and politics. I would probably be classified as a Left Communist, but that is the problem with the left today: we focus too much on theory and ideology, and thus we are divided.
And to change that, you're making pedantic arguments that are irrelevant? Do you really think policing labels is more important than building a working class movement to overthrow capitalism, and that a revolution will be carried out by labels?

[cynicles]

Ha! Now that we've got Jesse Ventura on our side the scales have finally been tipped in our favor! Take that Jenna Jameson! You thought your support for the republicans would stop us but nay! Nay like so many horses on cocaine!

That's is the best I can some up may reaction to this, swimming in sarcasm like mashed potatoes in gravy of course.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

:lol: The fuck out of here! This made my day, I'm interested in further developments.

[Marxaveli]

And technically a cheeseburger is a hamburger with cheese. Marxism as applied by a libertarian socialist = libertarian Marxism. You know that's how it's being used, but you'd rather feign ignorance and be pedantic about it.

No, there is Marxism and thats it, plain and simple. It is used in only one way, whether it is a Stalinist or a Left Communist making the analysis. It is when people start injecting these personal ideologies into analysis when things start becoming subjective, distorted and even wrong. Marxism is an objective analysis of material conditions for us that can be made regardless of one's political views.


And to change that, you're making pedantic arguments that are irrelevant? Do you really think policing labels is more important than building a working class movement to overthrow capitalism, and that a revolution will be carried out by labels?


Did you even read what I said? Policing labels and ideologies is exactly the problem, because we sit here and say "no, Anarchists got it all wrong", "Left Communists are revisionists", "Stalinism is what destroyed the Left", yada yada yada. I'm pretty sure Marx himself disliked ideology, and Marxism as a science is what is needed to converge with the working class to build a foundation for revolutionary politics - not sitting here trying to discredit ideologies and up others as so many people here do. "Libertarian Marxism" is you trying to inject ideology or even personal ethics into objective science, and that is not a good thing.

[Caj]

Libertarian Marxism is just a phrase people, holy fuck. It encompasses councillism, left communism, etc.

Firstly, as Rafiq said above, Marxism is not an ideology (in either the Marxian or the conventional usage of the term). Marxism is a scientific mode of analysis. Surely one can simultaneously be a Marxist, i.e., one who uses Marxian analysis, and an adherent to libertarian principles, but to say that there is such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" implies that there are different, opposed "kinds" of Marxism. The phrase "libertarian Marxism" is akin to the phrase "libertarian physics" -- It just doesn't make any sense, regardless of the fact that one can both be a libertarian and accept the validity of physics.

Secondly, left communism is not libertarian. Although that distortion of the German-Dutch Communist Left known as council communism could be described as "libertarian," both the German-Dutch and Italian Communist Lefts are pro-Party and pro-Bolshevik, positions regarded as "authoritarian" by most libertarians.


Well, there's a well established tradition of people who are libertarian socialists and marxists - Luxemburg, Pannekoek, arguably Marx. I think that's all it's supposed to refer to.

Pannekoek, yes, did eventually succumb to libertarianism. Luxemburg, on the other hand, who described anarchism as "the ideological signboard of the counterrevolutionary lumpenproletariat," would roll in her grave at being called a libertarian. And Marx -- well, it shouldn't even have to be explained why Marx wasn't a libertarian.

[Robocommie]

Yaaay, another argument over semantics and terminology.

Guys, just define your terms and recognize that language is mutable. Live in harmony with your fellow leftists. The end.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Fellas, you're missing the big picture here. We got Ventura, the revolution is won.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No, there is Marxism and thats it, plain and simple. It is used in only one way, whether it is a Stalinist or a Left Communist making the analysis. It is when people start injecting these personal ideologies into analysis when things start becoming subjective, distorted and even wrong. Marxism is an objective analysis of material conditions for us that can be made regardless of one's political views.
And "libertarian Marxism" is used to mean someone using that objective analysis toward a libertarian socialist goal. You know that's what it means. Believe me, it's not cute for you to play dumb and be pedantic about it.


Did you even read what I said? Policing labels and ideologies is exactly the problem
Then stop being a part of the problem. Stop worrying about what labels someone else uses. Stop playing dumb about what the label means just so you have a reason to argue with them.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Surely one can simultaneously be a Marxist, i.e., one who uses Marxian analysis, and an adherent to libertarian principles, but to say that there is such a thing as "libertarian Marxism" implies that there are different, opposed "kinds" of Marxism.
If there's a better, quicker way to describe being a libertarian who uses Marxian analysis, then speak up. Personally, I think people here know that's exactly how the LM label is being used, but are determined to play dumb so they can complain.

[Caj]

If there's a better, quicker way to describe being a libertarian who uses Marxian analysis, then speak up. Personally, I think people here know that's exactly how the LM label is being used, but are determined to play dumb so they can complain.

Okay, you are both a libertarian and a Marxist, so you call yourself a libertarian Marxist, in the same way that a libertarian who studies physics might say they are a libertarian physicist. That makes sense. However, that still doesn't mean there is such a thing as "libertarian Marxism," in the same way that there isn't such a thing as "libertarian physics" simply because there are libertarian physicists (i.e., physicists who happen to be libertarians).

[Marxaveli]

And "libertarian Marxism" is used to mean someone using that objective analysis toward a libertarian socialist goal. You know that's what it means. Believe me, it's not cute for you to play dumb and be pedantic about it.


Then stop being a part of the problem. Stop worrying about what labels someone else uses. Stop playing dumb about what the label means just so you have a reason to argue with them.

:confused:

No one is playing dumb here comrade, nor trying to be cute.

How am I a part of the problem? It is you, not I, that is injecting ideology into the matter. The goal of Marxism isn't to establish any particular vision of socialism (be it libertarian or otherwise), the goal is to establish a revolutionary framework to defeat Capitalism, and establish a socialist, and eventually communist society as described by Marx and Engels. To use it as a basis for establishing any type of tendency (be it libertarian socialism or Leninism) is idealist.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

However, that still doesn't mean there is such a thing as "libertarian Marxism," in the same way that there isn't such a thing as "libertarian physics" simply because there are libertarian physicists (i.e., physicists who happen to be libertarians).
To me, libertarian Marxism is a libertarian communism informed by Marxian theory and analysis, and that's all that's being expressed by the label. Is it a perfectly expressed label? Possibly not. Do other leftists get a general sense of what's meant by the label? I think so.

But, hey, arguing over labels is going to smash the bourgeoisie, so carry on. Declaring "libertarian Marxism isn't a thing" will surely inspire the workers of the world to revolution. :lol:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How am I a part of the problem?
You say "policing labels and ideologies is exactly the problem" and then you do just that.

What label any of us uses is of far less importance than what we are doing to change the world, which as Marx stated, is the point.

Believe me, arguing about the validity of the "libertarian Marxism" label means fuck all to the working class being oppressed and exploited by the bourgeoisie.

[o well this is ok I guess]

the goal is to establish a revolutionary framework to defeat Capitalism, and establish a socialist, and eventually communist society as described by Marx and Engels. I've never known a science to be so dogmatic

[Marxaveli]

Marxism isn't dogmatic. Ideologies, however, usually are.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Marxism isn't dogmatic. Ideologies, however, usually are. I dunno brah ideologies are certainly more flexible than your proposed programme for marxology.

[Geiseric]

Jesse Ventura also is a conspiracy theorist. Why the fuck do people care what that moron has to say?

[Marxaveli]

I dunno brah ideologies are certainly more flexible than your proposed programme for marxology.

Then we agree to disagree. I don't have any proposed program for "marxology", because once again, I don't care for ideologies, because they are all idealistic. The beauty of Marxism is that it is objective (or should be anyway), and not subjective like ideologies are.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Jesse Ventura also is a conspiracy theorist. Why the fuck do people care what that moron has to say?

Being an alleged "conspiracy," theorist does not a moron make, comrade.

[Sheepy]

He's just asking for attention as usual, so I wouldn't pay him any mind.

[justinkjones24]

9/11 was an inside job, end the fed, Ron Paul, blah blah blah. Ventura ranks up there with Alex Jones when it comes to intellectual might. For God's sake Jesse, don't run with the marxist label. We have it hard enough already.

[Luís Henrique]

Lol.

I'm pretty sure that Luxemburg would disagree greatly with being called a "libertarian" and libertarian socialists must be really reaching by wanting to include Luxemburg in their lists of thinkers.

I am also pretty sure that she would disagree with being lumped with Pannekoek. But the sad truth is everyone wants to include Luxemburg in their list of thinkers, from council communists to social democrats to Stalinists to Trotskyists.

It doesn't make her part of any of those tendencies.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

'Libertarian' and 'Authoritarian' are ideologies,
No, they aren't. They are empty terms that people like to randomly throw at each others in political debate, but they are completely devoid of content - except in the weakest sence of "authoritarian", that just means "law and order" kinds of people.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Jesse Ventura may be an idiot, but he doesn't consider himself a "libertarian Marxist". Someone even more idiotic than him conflated his support for "libertarian" (as in American "libertarian") politics and his opposition to military intervention against "communist" countries into that phrase, but nowhere he said anything similar.

Luís Henrique