Religion vs Politics

[Domino]

OK, this is more through a personal point of view, but... I practice Judaism and I'm a Guevarist (whether the term is right or not, that's how I use it) I know communism is against any religion, but I don't think having faith in something has to do with your political beliefs, has it? What do you think?

Sorry if this has been disscused before.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Well Im not a communist but as one you would from a Marxist point of view realise that religion is nothing but opium for the masses, a tool of the state used to repress people which is in fact.

Many will try tell you otherwise but religion and Marxism dont mix, though in a communist society I reckon religion would become a private affair so it could be for you too I suppose...

[iloveatomickitten]

The view that communism is right because it helps the poor is based on religion - the view that people matter (other people) so I can't see how they can exist without each other - in the absence of religion people would strive for more than the society could give (given that people will always want more) returning to capitalism.

[Soviet power supreme]

The poor people cant fight back because religion bans it.The transform from capitalism to communism cannot be made followng the religion.Thou shall not steal, so what it means that capitalists have their right to own their property.
Some may say that capitalist mustnt opress the workers but it is not opression when capitalists can say what wage they get or how long days they do because they own the place.

Christianity,Islam,Judaism all promises a place in heaven but you must stick with the class where you have born.You cant have an armed revolution.

Religion is opiate to masses.

[Domino]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 23 2003, 01:11 PM
Christianity, Islam, Judaism all promises a place in heaven but you must stick with the class where you have born.You cant have an armed revolution.
I'm a Reform jew, so things are different from our point of view. My religion allows me think and do what I want most of the time... now that sounded strange, but the point is, Reform Judaism is the liberal Judaism.

[Soviet power supreme]

I dont know how reform-Judaism is different than normal, but you cant take capitlists' property or kill them?Right?

[Domino]

Sure I can. Reform Judaism has the Jewish beliefs in G*d, but not the same society standars that Orthodox or Conservative jews have.

[Soviet power supreme]

But dont you like go to hell if you break the commandments?

[Domino]

Not really, there is no Hell, there's reincarnation.

[Soviet power supreme]

Reincarnation in judaism?Is it like in hinduism?Karma?

[Domino]

A bit like Karma, yeah. You pretty much have to fix what you did wrong in your past life before being able to finally stay next to God in 'heaven'.

[Soviet power supreme]

Hmm I wonder what happened to the religion thread that was in here philosophy section. :unsure:. There was a good debate on reincarnation.

Well it really depends what kind of rules or commandments are in your religion.Then you must ask yourself: "Can I be a communist and still get to the god?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 23 2003, 09:21 PM
Well it really depends what kind of rules or commandments are in your religion.Then you must ask yourself: "Can I be a communist and still get to the god?
I agree. I don't think that religions are inherently a barrier to activism or socialism, but often there are some ideas which do come into conflict. For example, if you are a type of christian who believes that (because of orignial sin) man can not create a better life on earth only god (or belief in god) can make things better, then this idea serves whatever status quo exists in sociuety and would be a barrior in convincing someone that workers have the power to change society for the better.

Revolutionary situations radicalize people and so I think in such a situation, these conflicts between politics and religion will clash and people will have to abandon their anti-struggle religious beliefs, the religion all together, or change their religion so that political and socialist activities do not conflict with their spititual beliefs.

I think after a revolution there will still be most of the same religions, but these religions will have changed to fit into the new social realities of a worker power system. Similar things happened in religion with the borgoiuse revolutions; religions that were totally based in the feudal social order either shriveled and died or there were prodestant religions which came in or the church had to change it's teachings and practices in order to make sense in a new social system.

[Domino]

I agree with you guys. In my case, I love my religion and believe in G-d, but that doesn't stop me from being a guevarist and wanting a revolution. :unsure:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Another interesting question is will people become less religious in a socialist society? Marx said that religion is like an opiate, so that means it could have a sedating effect, but opium was also an important medicine back in the day, and marx said it gave people hope for a better world (not until after they died of course). So if people were living in a society where they had more power in society and could actually change things so that people's needs and wants could be the top priorety and could be met, then why would people need to follow religions that emphasised trying to change the world by praying for divine intervention or exused suffering as god testing us?

[Domino]

I don't know, but that's interesting. I don't think G-d is testing us though, the Holocaust, for example... some jews think it was a test, and some others like me, think that it just happened because that's humanity. The darkest actions of the humanity. G-d didn't do it to test us, it happened and he/she/it did nothing to stop it, cause he's as good as he is evil.

[Soviet power supreme]

I believe that there will be more atheistists in the communistic world.But I believe that somebody will get comfort from religion for example the lonely people.

Why You Tetelives spell god g-d?


. I don't think G-d is testing us though, the Holocaust, for example... some jews think it was a test

See that what im talking about.The people must understand that god doesnt control the people.This one of the things that must be forgot.If people think that capitalists are contolled by god then workers wouldnt fight back.

[Domino]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 23 2003, 03:53 PM
Why You Tetelives spell god g-d?
Some Jews spell God as G-d. This has its origin in the third commandment, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain" (Exo. 20:7)

That sounds pretty religious, but like I said, I have the established belief of G-d, but I see society in a different way. I agree that people has to realize G-d doesn't control us, cause he doesn't. When people says that I imagine us like in that "Clash of the Titans" film when Zeuz is moving the people as little toys. That's just plain stupid to me. Humanity is one thing, G-d is something humanity believes in.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 23 2003, 09:53 PM
I believe that there will be more atheistists in the communistic world.But I believe that somebody will get comfort from religion for example the lonely people.

Why You Tetelives spell god g-d?

"Why You Tetelives spell god g-d?" isn't it because no one can represent god in image form.

As for your first part, this is why I think religion would change a lot in a worker's state. People might still be religious but the things that religion adresses will be more abstract things like what happens to us after we die rahter than the things that mainstram christianity and other major religions focus on today.

Today, mainstram christianity is all about morality and being a better person and not being punished because people live in a society where greed and selfishness are necissary in order to prosper. After a revolution, preechers wouldn't need to go on about being charitable since charity is a lot easier when people arn't worried about lay-offs, cost of living and rent. It makes sense to people that if you have food you are going to get rid of anyway, it is better to give it to someone who needs it, but this common sense is completly nonsensical within the capitalist system because it hurts profits and so exra food is not produced or distributed and so people are layed off to keep production profitable or excess stocks are destroyed.

But people will still have spiritual questions about death and the origins of life and so I think religion will still draw people after a revolution; it's just that religon will be used to satisfy different concerns of people in a different society.

[Soviet power supreme]

So you have only taken the third commandment to be followed?Or do you follow them all?

And what comes to origin of life, I think that scientists will somday discover it.

[Domino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 04:09 PM
"Why You Tetelives spell god g-d?" isn't it because no one can represent god in image form.
That's also true, mate. :)



And personally, I think mainly Christianity is what makes the society, especially lower class, so ignorant and close minded about many things. It's not cause it's not my religion, but I live in Mexico, a country where 80% of the population is Catholic, needless to say, we're a 3rd world country.

[cubist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 10:24 PM


And personally, I think mainly Christianity is what makes the society, especially lower class, so ignorant and close minded about many things. It's not cause it's not my religion, but I live in Mexico, a country where 80% of the population is Catholic, needless to say, we're a 3rd world country.
i would say society is making society more retarded and closed minded,

christianity may play a part in the promoting of ignorance but it isn't the key reason society is closed minded

christianity is the only religion that classes homosexuality as a sin and has a gay church

[redstar2000]

...but I don't think having faith in something has to do with your political beliefs, has it? What do you think?

Well, there are two rather complicated assumptions buried in your question.

1. That politics involve "belief" rather than observation and reason.

2. That people can effectively "compartmentalize" their thoughts on various matters...and make them sealed compartments that never influence each other.

The first assumption is dubious and the second is clearly wrong.

Marxist politics at least attempt to be scientific...based on accurate observation of the material world, logical conclusions drawn from those observations, and political action that derives from those two activities. To change the world, you must understand it.

This is not to say that there have never been people who treated Marxism as a religion...a good deal of the Leninist tradition does exactly that.

But that's not what is supposed to happen.

On the other hand, capitalist/fascist politics do contain an important "religious" attitude...greed and power are "good" in and of themselves--no reference to the real world effects of those motivations is "required". They may be offered...but those who genuinely "believe" do not require them.

Another way to put it is that capitalism was born in "the age of faith" and still bears the marks of its birth. "Faith" is not necessarily considered "unreasonable" by capitalist thinkers.

This leads to a point I've made before in the hordes of threads we've had on this subject at Che-Lives...

When someone declares "faith" in the "supernatural"--in any way--they have declared the universe unknowable in a fundamental sense. If we "believe" in "supernatural" entities that can interact with the real world...then the real world becomes totally unpredictable by definition.

Which, in turn, leads to the conclusion that all purposeful human activity is completely pointless. Plant your fields, tend your crops as carefully as you may, and a "god" or even a "witch" may destroy the fruits of all your labors.

Of course, you can "worship" the "god" or burn the "witch"--and people have tried both of those ideas. They didn't work. The latter has fallen out of fashion lately--but people still try the former. It still doesn't work.

Every "holy book" has some variation on the ancient complaint: "the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer grievously".

That's because there's no such thing as "supernatural" entities that interact with the real world.

Now, consider the person who "believes" in the "supernatural" but tries to "change the real world". What are they going to do? Anything they "plan" can be upset by the random intervention of the "supernatural"--which also presumably has the power to change the world in any way it wishes.

Why not just "pray" for a new world? That has "just as good" a "chance" as any other method. And it's easier.

You can "do more" if you wish...but you're acting "in the dark"--by definition, you can't hope to have any idea of what the outcome of your work will be. It's "in the laps of the gods".

After more than a year on this board, I have seen dozens of people come here who are attracted to communism for its "moral content"...but who can't even imagine what it's like to "think like a communist".

This is what it's like: just forget all the nonsense you've ever heard about the "supernatural"...it doesn't exist, period.

Now, you ready to begin to understand the real world...and how to change it.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Domino]

RedStar, as wise as always, I bloody love your posts, mate! You know exactly how to explain things. :)

OK, here's what I think. I think you're right. Yet, I still believe in some sort of G-d, BUT... I've never thought "it" rules the world and decides what is going to happen to the humanity, maybe "it" just watches and learns, I'm not sure really. I don't think "it" decides over our lives. Like I said before, the Holocaust, for example: Some jews think "it" did it to test us... but some -myself included- think "it" didn't do it and didn't stop it either. It just happened, because G-d doesn't rule humanity. Humanity is something, G-d is something else. I don't know if I explained myself.

In short, I believe there is a G-d, I don't think he says what humanity must do, humanity most handle itself, so we can change the "reality" we can change the world without having "it" do it for us, you know? G-d is there to give us... hope maybe, strength perhaps... but not to tell us what to do.

[Domino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 08:43 AM
i would say society is making society more retarded and closed minded (...)

christianity is the only religion that classes homosexuality as a sin and has a gay church
1st quote.- Of course, machismo, right? But machismo comes in part from the Christianity, making G-d look like a MAN, not a woman? Nuns can't give mass. A bunch of "moral" crap that they impose.

2nd quote.- Precisely, again, machismo > ignorance.

:unsure:

[Beccie]

And personally, I think mainly Christianity is what makes the society, especially lower class, so ignorant and close minded about many things. It's not cause it's not my religion, but I live in Mexico, a country where 80% of the population is Catholic, needless to say, we're a 3rd world country.


I don't think that you can prove that there is a direct relationship between Christianity and poverty. There are many countries that claim to be Christian and are also part of the first world (America, Australia etc.). It is also possible that many poor people follow Christianity because the founders of the religion depicted Jesus amongst the poor and the religion preaches solidarity with the outcasts of society. It is obvious how Christianity could provide comfort to those people living in poverty. Liberation Theology, a Christian movement in El Salvador, gave the people there so much hope and the will to fight against a corrupt government and military that America saw it as a threat and crushed the movement.

[Domino]

Oh I agree. I'm not saying just poor people are Christians. But most of the time the church -at least here in Mexico- takes advantage of the poor education of the lower class to make them believe in a religion that only wants money from people -Catholicism, to be precise-.

[cubist]

i don't disagree its totally ignorant, but to blame religion for soceities ignorance is ignorant in its own.(sp?)

the religion doesn't wholly promote ignorance it encourages humans to do the right thing for humanity too, unfortunately those psycho rightwing nuts have adopted religion and use it for worse.

religion should play no part in politicsa just as politics should pplay no part in your beliefs,

i am not, not a christian becuase i am a socialist i am not a christian becuase i believe it is wrong,

i am not a muslim beucase i believe it is wrong same with wicca buddhists you name it they are all wrong.


there is a church in london that took over £700,000 in a year from its weekly collections so i would say not only the poor are christians. but maybe christianity makes you poor

[redstar2000]

OK, here's what I think. I think you're right. Yet, I still believe in some sort of G-d, BUT... I've never thought "it" rules the world and decides what is going to happen to the humanity, maybe "it" just watches and learns, I'm not sure really. I don't think "it" decides over our lives. Like I said before, the Holocaust, for example: Some jews think "it" did it to test us... but some -myself included- think "it" didn't do it and didn't stop it either. It just happened, because G-d doesn't rule humanity. Humanity is something, G-d is something else. I don't know if I explained myself.

Well, you seem to think that there "is" a "supernatural realm" but that it doesn't interact with the real material world at all.

If that were to be the case, then we can behave "as if" it doesn't exist...it has no influence on the outcome of real world activity. We need not "take it into account".

Thus, we can dismiss all of the "holy books" out of hand. Since the "supernatural" has no influence on the real world, the people who wrote them were either suffering from delusions or were liars. There's no reason to accept their pretensions of "knowing" about the inherently "unknowable" "supernatural realm".

Perhaps the "supernatural" "watches us"--like a "reality show" on dummyvision. Perhaps it is utterly indifferent to human life. Perhaps it is completely unaware that human life exists at all. In fact, the "supernatural realm" might not even be aware of our universe at all.

There's no way to tell.

Does it "make sense" to postulate such a "supernatural realm"...when there's no way to ever decide the question, one way or another? If it has no effect at all on the real world, why bother with a superfluous hypothesis? It's not "needed" to explain anything since it can't explain anything.

There's an interesting parallel here from biology. Throughout the 19th century and at least the first third of the 20th century, biologists assumed that "race" was a meaningful concept and tried to use it to "explain" all kinds of things. But the more they investigated, the more they found that "race" could not explain the problems they were trying to figure out.

As biologists learned more and more through the remainder of the 20th century, "race" became more and more unnecessary, more and more meaningless. Finally, the concept of "race" was simply abandoned as useless to biological science.

The people who study "race" now are sociologists and historians--"race" is a social construct and its meanings are to be found in culture, not biology.

As long as people seriously "believed" that the "supernatural realm" actively intervened in the real world--either by word, deed, or both--then it "made sense" to acquire "knowledge" about the "nature" of the "supernatural"...to consult "holy books" for guidance, to perform certain "rituals of worship", etc.

But as we have learned more and more about the real world, the "power" of the "supernatural explanation" has steadily receded. The 17th century "cosmology" of Isaac Newton suggested that "God created the universe and set it in motion"...and thereafter "went fishing".

Now, believers fall back on "the big bang"..."God started it" and that's the last event where they have any independent evidence for the possible "intervention of the supernatural".

But all is not well...there are some mathematical speculations about "natural causes of the big bang". The fate of the "supernatural" as an "explanation" for anything at all stands on the "edge of the abyss".

Meanwhile, the serious study of religion has passed to cultural historians and sociologists...it is, again, a social construct.

And, like "race", it is one that needs to be "deconstructed" very badly. It has done little good and much evil.

We should rid ourselves of it.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Comrade Ceausescu]

I have honestly have not read anything in this topic but the title.Having said that,I will repeat a claim said by many rightists.They say that for leftists,their politics is often like a religon to them,or it comes a religon.

[redstar2000]

I have honestly have not read anything in this topic but the title.

Don't you think you should, before posting?

Had you done so, you would have found this...


Marxist politics at least attempt to be scientific...based on accurate observation of the material world, logical conclusions drawn from those observations, and political action that derives from those two activities. To change the world, you must understand it.

This is not to say that there have never been people who treated Marxism as a religion...a good deal of the Leninist tradition does exactly that.

But that's not what is supposed to happen.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Domino]

Well, you've got LOTS of good points, RedStar. I probably have a strange view on "religion"... hm, I don't like that word cause it's something you have to follow to the rule, which I don't do :huh: Maybe I should stay agnostic :lol: Not really, but oh well.

Thanks to everyone that posted! :ph34r:

[ComradeRed]

In my opinion, religion is fine and all as long as there is NO CLERGY, but the reason it's the opium of the masses is because it's the crutch of the oppressive gov't. Look at the pre-French Revolution Period, the clergy promised the masses if they (the masses) toiled in the fields for the nobles. The nobles gave half of the crops to the king, then half of what's left to the clergy, took half of what's left, and divided what was left with the peasents, i.e. you get a fraction of a sixteenth of what was made. Marx didn't like this, hence why it was like this.

Back to my opinion, in every religion it is the clergy who manipulate the masses for the clergy's purposes. It is really only non-cult, no clergy religions that i don't see as wrong...

[cubist]

all relgion is wrong,

its a mind controller, it encourages those that believe that they are better than others, it scams money out of the weak but is protected to do so by law. It creates a vast irationality in humans who seem to believe "its magic is the answer"

well its fucking not, maybe god does exist but he wouldn't want paedophiles in his church, he wouldn't be sexist he wouldn't have created women if he wanted them to be oppressed, he wouldn't allow people to be murdered in HOLY wars which weren't even holy, he wouldn't oreder the rape of a mans wives becuase the man pissed him off and then preach holiness about sexual imorality, the list goes on and on

history has shown people hung for putting blastphamy in songs. not chritsian blastphamy only the court didn't recognise islam as a faith in britain when this was going on

[Domino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 08:47 AM
maybe god does exist but he wouldn't want paedophiles in his church, he wouldn't be sexist he wouldn't have created women if he wanted them to be oppressed, he wouldn't allow people to be murdered in HOLY wars which weren't even holy, he wouldn't oreder the rape of a mans wives becuase the man pissed him off and then preach holiness about sexual imorality, the list goes on and on
Right on. ;) Catholicism does all that. That's why I really hate that religion. And I'm sure most of the religions do the same thing, but I say Catholicism cause I'm surrounded by those wankers. 80% of my country's population.