could communism use religion

[cubist]

just a thought, though it would make for an interesting debate?

seeing as most believe all religion is made up surely it is viable.

christianity is utilised by the right/capitalists to control and influence the "moral*" public. George bush uses it to justify his actions when taking on the axis of EVIL.

arabic countries often have islamic leadership

is there no way a communist party structurecould vet religion to teach socialist ideals and encourage at least the acception of communism in modern day society.



*at no point am i implying non christians are immoral i am stating it as a christian would say

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

No. Nuff' said.

[cubist]

not really nuff said,

though i would tend to agree, i was just curious to see what people would think and say.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 07:27 PM
just a thought, though it would make for an interesting debate?

seeing as most believe all religion is made up surely it is viable.

christianity is utilised by the right/capitalists to control and influence the "moral*" public. George bush uses it to justify his actions when taking on the axis of EVIL.

arabic countries often have islamic leadership

is there no way a communist party structurecould vet religion to teach socialist ideals and encourage at least the acception of communism in modern day society.



*at no point am i implying non christians are immoral i am stating it as a christian would say
I think you have to remember that religion changes as the people in society change. I think if the society was generally heading towards worker's revolution, there would be splits in major religions with some going to a working-class grassroots revolutionary version of christianity and others becomeing a more reactionary version of christianity. I was raiosed catholic for example and the church I went to had a lot of immigrents and poor people who attended, so the priests and the parisheners were more progressive and generally more liberal and were against prop 187 in california and anti-immigrent racism... that's not because the pope is really a liberal, it's because the conditions of society in Southern California and the conditions of catholics in that area.

In latin America there is revolutionary theology and I think if there was a revolutionary situation in the US, you'd see similar things here.

In the Iranian revolution there was a split of Islamic tendancies with some supporting the reactionary landlords and small merchants of the provences and others influenced by the industrial working class and student revolutionaries. Some religious leaders were pushing for reforms such as rights for women and national minoreties while others were against these reforms and were against ethnic and religious minoreties.

For these reasons I think it is rash for communists to automatically count religion as backwards and counter-revolutionary, I think many people who will be important to future revolutions will be religious.

[Soviet power supreme]

Usin what religion?Christianity?Islam?Buddhism?
If you are going to pick one, you dont get the members from other groups.

Religion is opiate to masses.Dont use it.

[redstar2000]

The purpose of religion is to get people to obey. The purpose of any revolutionary ideology is to get people to rebel.

So, religion is "the wrong tool for the job" that we are engaged in.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[mEds]

ok i 100% understand your arguments. But what about *my famed and classic* God? (no, not tied to religion.)

[Monty Cantsin]

this topic makes communism sound EVIL!!!


its a fair enough thought but the way you word it just gives a bad image.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 10:31 PM
this topic makes communism sound EVIL!!!


its a fair enough thought but the way you word it just gives a bad image.
Yes, I agree, it's bad wording... as if "useing religion to trick people".

Communism should not be cloaked in religion but people who are religious can be communists and revolutionaries in my opinion. There are revolutionary theologies who argue that it is moral for the poor to fight against the rule of the rich, but that morality comes from God, so they arn't really "communism cloaked in religion", they are religions that have very radical beliefs.

So using religion as a tactic, isn't very good because it is decietful to the working class... you are saying that communism should happen because it is the will of God, not because it is in the intrests of the working class. We already have capitalism to use religion in this way and decieve us, communism should only decieve the ruling class and not the working class.

[peaccenicked]

Religion has to be historically based. In essence it has been mankind's response to having little control over nature or the environment. As tools have developed to the modern day microchip,womankind has had more control over her choices.


Religion is then a backward mode of thinking. It is the ideology of a conquered mind making its personal case for social liberation.
Communism which is a potentiality rather than actual is not born from nothing.
It has grown out of backward thinking, it could not come into being as an anti ideological force without it.

The question is not "could commmunism use religion?"
But how can communism both assimilate and reject religion?

[peaccenicked]

Only in communist society, when the resistance of the capitalists have disappeared, when there are no classes (i.e., when there is no distinction between the members of society as regards their relation to the social means of production), only then "the state... ceases to exist", and "it becomes possible to speak of freedom". Only then will a truly complete democracy become possible and be realized, a democracy without any exceptions whatever. And only then will democracy begin to wither away, owing to the simple fact that, freed from capitalist slavery, from the untold horrors, savagery, absurdities, and infamies of capitalist exploitation, people will gradually become accustomed to observing the elementary rules of social intercourse that have been known for centuries and repeated for thousands of years in all copy-book maxims. They will become accustomed to observing them without force, without coercion, without subordination, without the special apparatus for coercion called the state.

from Lenin "State and Revolution" Chapter 5

[cormacobear]

It is harder for a rich man to get into heaven, than to feed a camel through the eye of a needle.
Jesus said this, he was the communist of the era. Help your neighbbour, all men are equal in the eyes of god, etc. etc. etc.. People like Bush are terrible Christians it's like he only read half the book, snickered at the eye for an eye bit, got to the new testament but instead of reading it said I think I get the gist and practiced what he calls Christianity only from the Old.

The fundamental morals of the new testament are extremely socailist.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Good grief. not another one of those 'Jesus was a communist' posts.

[truthaddict11]

I know what you mean NoXion.

here is the best subject here on how Jesus was NOT a communist.
Link (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6238)


youlll probally bring up the money changers in the temple as your "evidence" he was a communist, but that has already been explained that was for religious reasons he would have been fine with it if it was across the street.

and dont know how you can call the "New Testament" socialist, explain then why those televangelists who have read the "New Testament" such as Jimmy Swaggert, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson have earned MILLIONS in their "careers" and embrace capitalism.

[redstar2000]

It is harder for a rich man to get into heaven, than to feed a camel through the eye of a needle.

Jesus said this...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[cubist]

i see, well it was a thought,



comacobear,
jesus turned said "and i tell you no lies it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kindgom of god," is how i think you will find it goes,

i agree jesus was a revolutionary unfortunately the other half of the bible is immoral, and it has been used by paedophille, thieving canieving murderous men who use god to justify there actions. but what can you expect from people who read a book where they're, god wiped out armies and had all the boys killed and the mistress of those who they defeated taken for theyre own.

[redstar2000]

...it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god

Indeed...but I think most scholars agree that this verse was marred by a copyist's error. I'm told that in the Greek language, the word for "camel" and the word for "rope" differ by a single letter.

It makes more sense to say "a rope to pass through the eye of a needle".

The interesting thing is what the church made of this error--who knows, maybe it wasn't an error but a conscious forgery...?

It was pretended that there was a narrow gate in Jerusalem's walls called "the Needle Gate". A fully loaded camel could not pass through...unless it was partially unloaded. Thus the rich man could not get to "Heaven"...unless he unloaded a substantial portion of his wealth to the church.

Neat trick, eh?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Rastaman]

Religion is based on belief. In a communist society one must trust in the state. Thats why Religion gets in the way. If religion and the state don't agree in one point people that believe both will doubt one or the other. If people begin to doubt the system especially communism where everyone has to chip in... things will go downhill a new aristocracywill be formed, etc.

I believe you can believe both - Your religion (be that christianity, muslim, (what is the noun for that??) budhism or whatever) and Marx. But if you find an excuse not to do your part in the bible or whatever other holy manuscript... you're messing with the system.