The EDL

[rednordman]

I know this may seem like a stupid question, but i really have to ask who are these people, and what do they really believe? they constantly go on about 'radical islam' and act like fascists, but yet alot of them say they are also anti-fascist or anti-totalitarian to be more exact. Also what to they really want to achieve? what is their vision for their future society?

I really have to ask all this because it seems that more and more recently, they seem to be getting some influence on regional consensus. You don't have to go far to hear seeming ordinary people use snippets or their rhetoric. Even on social networking sites i see alot of people commenting or sharing stuff that is blatantly of the edl origin (fb page 'our england' is a good example).

Also yesterday in walsall (a local town) there was largish fighting between them and the UAF. thing is, this seems to be a rather frequent occurance. they are always hosting marches all across the midlands and probably other parts of the uk too. The actual size of these marches, im not to sure though.

Sure they are a threat to us, but are they a threat on the political sphere? or in British society in general? Another thing which is getting rather striking is the amounts of copycats from other european and scandinavian countries and even USA now too. Even after the horror of Anders B Breivik, there is even one now in Norway. WTF? Why is this happening?

[Positivist]

Well the EDL is indeed quite similar to fascists but I dot know if they're growing more prominent. Unless recen events have triggered a surge in their popularity that have been on a consistent decline since 2004 I do believe. Also those places you've mentioned with EDL "copycats" have had EDL affiliated organizations for years which have recently become more connected as part of shift from secluded nationalism to broader North Atlantic pan-nationalism.

[brigadista]

little englanders with a pinch of fascism

[The Idler]

Because if you read Breivik his ideas are derived from major mainstream media and only radicalised because he felt unable to talk about it due to antifascist censorship.

In the rest of Book 2 he writes chapters entitled “Discrimination and harassment against cultural conservatives” and “ ANTIFA/Labour Jugend – State sponsored Marxist lynch mobs” where he states, “These brave Leftists or ‘anti-Fascists’ do, for some curious reason, seem to behave pretty much like, well, Fascists, a bit like the Brown Shirts in the 1930s, physically assaulting political opponents to silence them.” Some of this unfortunately can be levelled at SOS Rasisme and Blitz in Norway.
Breivik's Philosophy of Hate | The Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2012/no-1294-june-2012/breivik%E2%80%99s-philosophy-hate)

[Bronco]

Well the EDL is indeed quite similar to fascists but I dot know if they're growing more prominent. Unless recen events have triggered a surge in their popularity that have been on a consistent decline since 2004 I do believe. Also those places you've mentioned with EDL "copycats" have had EDL affiliated organizations for years which have recently become more connected as part of shift from secluded nationalism to broader North Atlantic pan-nationalism.

:confused: The EDL weren't even around in 2004, they only really formed in 2009 after an Islamist protest against returning British troops in Luton and they've really been expanding ever since

[barbelo]

Why is this happening?

Maybe I'll be ostracized for saying this, but it's because there is a real crisis happening in european society and at the same time whoever complains about this crisis is considered a conservative or a reactionary. Their only hope ends being... Right-wing extremists organizations.
Of course by crisis I'm not referring to tinfoil hat conspiracies typical of stormfront, "them evil immigrants taking our jobs and wominz", nor anything like that.
Actually a description and understanding of this crisis is so complex that it escapes the scope of this thread.
In the moment you see a financially successful person like Breivik committing murder of children, and the people around just using the same rhetoric- out of touch with reality- you know there is something wrong with society.
It's like americans thinking 9/11 "come out of nowhere", instead of being the consequence of a extremely interventionist policy they assert in the world since Monroe doctrine.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I've been under the impression that the EDL has been slowly dying the past few months, plagued by splits and infighting.

[Positivist]

:confused: The EDL weren't even around in 2004, they only really formed in 2009 after an Islamist protest against returning British troops in Luton and they've really been expanding ever since

You sure? Maybe I'm thinking of a predecessor group?

[MaximMK]

Bunch of christian supremacists if thats the right term to use. They want christianity to dominate the world and are afraid of islam becoming the religion with most followers in europe because of the immigration.

[Positivist]

Maybe I'll be ostracized for saying this, but it's because there is a real crisis happening in european society and at the same time whoever complains about this crisis is considered a conservative or a reactionary. Their only hope ends being... Right-wing extremists organizations.
Of course by crisis I'm not referring to tinfoil hat conspiracies typical of stormfront, "them evil immigrants taking our jobs and wominz", nor anything like that.
Actually a description and understanding of this crisis is so complex that it escapes the scope of this thread.
In the moment you see a financially successful person like Breivik committing murder of children, and the people around just using the same rhetoric- out of touch with reality- you know there is something wrong with society.
It's like americans thinking 9/11 "come out of nowhere", instead of being the consequence of a extremely interventionist policy they assert in the world since Monroe doctrine.

What kind of crisis are you talking about? Economic? The way you describe it makes it sound like something else.

[Niall]

generally, a bunch of idiots IMO.

[brigadista]

they got run out of walthamstow by the community lol

[hatzel]

Bunch of christian supremacists if thats the right term to use. They want christianity to dominate the world and are afraid of islam becoming the religion with most followers in europe because of the immigration.

Well that's complete and utter codshite.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Because if you read Breivik his ideas are derived from major mainstream media and only radicalised because he felt unable to talk about it due to antifascist censorship.

Breivik's Philosophy of Hate | The Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2012/no-1294-june-2012/breivik%E2%80%99s-philosophy-hate)Not sure what you are arguing here. Do far right-people who can't openly organize sometimes become frustrated and engage in terrorism? Yes. Frustrated induvidual workers have sometimes done the same thing like killing a boss or planting bombs at a newspaper they blame for spreading anti-worker propaganda.

But while this is a threat and problem (so-called lone-wolf right-wingers) I think it's preferable for workers than if the Golden Dawn or KKK are openly marching in the streets and intimidating people while drawing in the right-wing nuts to do organized terror.

[Rottenfruit]

1. but i really have to ask who are these people, and what do they really believe?

2.they constantly go on about 'radical islam' and act like fascists, but yet alot of them say they are also anti-fascist or anti-totalitarian to be more exact.

3.Also what to they really want to achieve?

4.what is their vision for their future society?


5.Sure they are a threat to us, but are they a threat on the political sphere?

6.or in British society in general?

1.They are counter jihadisits, they belive in a conspiracy theory called Eurabia,

2.They belive that Adolf Hitler was pro muslim or a muslim because Muhammed Amin al-Husayni the grand mufti of Jersulam allied with Adolf Hitler and helped recruit muslim to fight for adolf hitler and the axis and a muslim based ss squad was created the 13th waffen mountain devision of the ss handscar, because of that they believe muslims are pro nazi and want to kill all jews and therefore muslims have a hatred of Jews that rivals Hitler himself and that Israel is a bastion against Islam and must be respected and Israel is too soft on Palestinians.
Hence they have a distaste for nazism and fascism, so therefore anybody who is against them must be pro nazi, in there eyes they are the real antinazis / antifacists

they think that antifacists and leftwingers are the geniune neo nazis and worse then nazi skinheads this does not only come because antifascists are against counterjihadists but more so because of how often anti fascists support Palestine so they must be pro Muslim alas pro Nazi and hate Jews and the west

3.A world where Islam has been annihalted, possibul by warfare because they belive that the west is facing the third islamic crusade and must respond with violent force.

4.A world where Islam has been removed from the world, its called deicide

5.Yes i would say so

6. Yes

[The Douche]

Hence they have a distaste for nazism and facicism,

Yeah, I see what you mean:

http://www.workerspower.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-edl-nazi-salute.png

:rolleyes:

[Rottenfruit]

Yeah, I see what you mean:

http://www.workerspower.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-edl-nazi-salute.png

:rolleyes:
Yeah explain to me groups like the jtf or people , Pamella Geller, Geert Wilders, Robert Spencer who are not in anyway nazis and really do hate national socalism.

Correct you have neo nazis trying to inflrate the counterjihadist movement, most of the white nationalists movement claim that edl and the countejihad movement is a part of the worldwide jewish conspiracy. Possibly some who hold both beliefs paradoxicily.

What you are seeing is a creation of a new type of rightwing rectirony movement which does oppose nazism,

jihadwatch athlasshrugs and gatesofvienna are major sites that spread this belief

[The Douche]

You don't have to be an anti-semite to be a fascist.

You said the EDL weren't fascist, you're wrong. Maybe not nazi but they are certainly fascist.

[Rottenfruit]

You don't have to be an anti-semite to be a fascist.

You said the EDL weren't fascist, you're wrong. Maybe not nazi but they are certainly fascist.
Fascismdoes not allow multiracial/multiregious socity to co exist within fascism, most of the counterjihad movement wants to annihlate islam only, they have no quirell with hindus or buddhists and often admire hindu extremists who have commited terroist attacks against muslims and they view India and hindus as victims of islamic aggression

Also the extreme philosemtism puts them at odd with facicism, they are closer to kahanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism)

[The Jay]

If they are fascists then please show me a document that their organization officially supports that proposes Corporativism.

[Bronco]

This is a thing I don't get on here, people normally get quite strict when it comes to defining fascism and jump on anyone who use it incorrectly to describe the USA or North Korea, but at the same time the EDL are just flippantly branded "fascist" without any real reason given as to why they are. To me they just seem a pretty motley bunch of right wingers who are loosely united under an anti-Islamic banner, I'd be interested to hear in what way they're actually a fascist movement

[Jimmie Higgins]

This is a thing I don't get on here, people normally get quite strict when it comes to defining fascism and jump on anyone who use it incorrectly to describe the USA or North Korea, but at the same time the EDL are just flippantly branded "fascist" without any real reason given as to why they are. To me they just seem a pretty motley bunch of right wingers who are loosely united under an anti-Islamic banner, I'd be interested to hear in what way they're actually a fascist movementBecause fascism has never been one set of ideas or a list of policies - it's more a method or movement: organized vigilantism acting in ways they see the state as failing.

EDL think the UK isn't defending England enough from "islamofascism", so they take it upon themselves. NAZIs thought Wiemar wasn't defending Germany from Bolshevism and the UK. The US minutmen patrol the border because the US hasn't militarized its border enough according to them.

In Russia Neo-Nazis take USSR nationalism as their "golden age" because nationalism in Russia is based on opposition to Germany, so no nationalist Russian would ever dress and act like a German Nazi.

The US and UK are not fascist countries because the repression and brutality they practice is just regular legal bourgeois atrocities. If the Golden Dawn ran Greece though, it would be fascism because you'd have a state with it's legal force and then a semi-official vigilante organization behind that.

[GerrardWinstanley]

This is a thing I don't get on here, people normally get quite strict when it comes to defining fascism and jump on anyone who use it incorrectly to describe the USA or North Korea, but at the same time the EDL are just flippantly branded "fascist" without any real reason given as to why they are. To me they just seem a pretty motley bunch of right wingers who are loosely united under an anti-Islamic banner, I'd be interested to hear in what way they're actually a fascist movementBecause their behaviour and organising principles are unmistakeably fascist. Their strategy is to become more influential at street level through physical intimidation (same with the blackshirts, the brownshirts, the BUF, etc) and use racial scapegoating to shift blame for working class alienation onto certain vulnerably groups. In the case of the Nazis, it was anti-semitism. For the EDL, it is Islamophobia and hatred of immigrants. The intimidation side takes the form of violent street protests, violence against ordinary muslims and attacks/vandalism on shops and places of worship.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/category/anti-muslim-violence

The EDL's demographics also perfectly fit the profile of a fascist movement. Although they share a reactionary, obscurantist posture with the UK Independence Party, they lack that party's favour with the ruling classes. The EDL's support base is drawn mostly from the petty bourgeoisie and street-thug/serial criminal types, exactly how Trotsky identified fascist rank and file.

Yes, the EDL's ideology might be different from Hiterism, but Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany and Franco's Spain also had their own distinct ideology. In much the same way, although the National Front's John Tyndall began his career as a vicious Nazi and anti-semite, his rhetoric moved away from biological racism in the 60's and 70's and shifted to racism directed against the presence of Asian and Afro-Caribbean culture in the UK. This was the racism of the times that was infamously summed up in Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.