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ind_com
29th September 2012, 00:39
Another nice piece by JMP


Misconceptions About Maoism (http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.in/2012/07/misconceptions-about-maoism.html)

Although maoism has been the most vital form of revolutionary communism in the world since the 1990s, those of us at the centres of capitalism who adopt the identity of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist occasionally have to deal with some very annoying misconceptions about what we believe. When we tell other leftists that we identify as maoist we are sometimes met with bemused expressions, glazed eyes, and curious suspicion. And despite our best efforts, we generally have to deal with the same bizarre assumptions about what we believe. It doesn't matter how many times we correct these misconceptions, or how successful we are in organizing outside of the boundaries of the mainstream left, the same assumptions continue to be asserted irregardless––sometimes by the same people who have simply ignored everything that we've said to begin with. So, while it probably won't matter one bit, I've taken it upon myself to list and again correct some of these erroneous claims about what we maoists believe.



1. Maoists are only concerned with peasant revolution.


This is probably the most common argument levelled against maoists at the centres of capitalism, a claim that keeps being despite all attempts on the part of maoists to argue otherwise. For when people think of Mao Zedong and the Chinese Revolution, the first thing that pops into their heads––if they aren't reactionaries [see below] is the large-scale peasant movements, the Long March, and the belief that when some of us talk of a "Peoples' War" we are interested in mobilizing the peasantry. Clearly this allows our critics to dismiss us out-of-hand because, obviously, there is no peasantry in Canada, or the United States, or Western Europe, or etc. Clearly there is no social class at the centres of capitalism that qualifies as the peasantry and so, if maoism is just a peasant marxism, then it wouldn't make any sense.


So let me say it again: we maoists are not primarily concerned with a universal peasantry that we believe exists in every country. When some of us speak of the importance of Mao's theory of protracted peoples war and its applicability to our social contexts we are not imagining a scenario where we will disappear into the hills with some active and over-exploited peasantry similar to the peasantry that exists in China. Nor do we believe migrant workers, rural labourers, let alone farmers at the centres of capitalism count as a peasant class. We generally believe that peasants only exist at the peripheries of global capitalism, in semi-feudal societies, and not at the imperial centres. Good lord, I don't know how many times I have to say this! Stop telling me that I believe in some non-existent Canadian peasantry––I don't live in a bubble.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VvkDZBicpeE/UAX8wiJvieI/AAAAAAAAAug/45RxsOYO5rY/s1600/peasant.jpeg

We maoists are supposedly organizing this guy and his friends.


If Mao organized the peasants in China, and if other revolutionary parties organize peasants, it is because these movements happened in societies where pre-capitalist formations were retained and allowed to flourish under comprador capitalism. Thus, in these contexts, peasants were often the most revolutionary social class––mainly because they were far more numerous than a nascent and underdeveloped proletariat. Hence the maoist concept of semi-feudalism that has to do with these social formations. When it comes to capitalist modes of production like Canada and the US, though, we maoists do not believe that there is anything that can be properly called a peasant social class. Stop telling us that we do when we do not because it's getting annoying.


Also, stop telling those of us who believe in the theory of Peoples War that this theory is dependent on some non-existent peasantry that you think we want to organize. We don't. I mean, if they did exist I'm sure we would want to organize them, but just like you we're pretty sure they don't exist and so we aren't trying all that hard to find some class simply because it fits into our romantic social categories. We aren't imagining that the cities will be surrounded by some imaginary peasant hinterland.


We believe in the necessity of what Mao called a concrete analysis of a concrete situation which is why we think social investigation is important––the same sort of social investigation that led Mao to organize amongst the peasants in China rather than the industrial workers. We are certain, because of social investigation, that there is no peasantry at the centres of capitalism. We are not always so certain, however, that what some marxists refer to as the proletariat is necessarily the hard-core of the proletariat; we think this working class, which will form the advanced embryo of a revolutionary movement, cannot be defined by uncritical formulae derived from nineteenth century thinking. Those who control the means of production and have nothing left to lose but their chains, after all, are no more the unionized industrial working class than they are the non-existent first world peasantry.




2. Maoists are vicious murderers.


If anyone reading this blog still thinks this they should stop reading now. Seriously: if you've been a reader for this long and still believe this reactionary shit, you probably should find another hobby blog to read. This is what uncritical reactionaries generally think because of the right-wing garbage that has recently been promoted about the Chinese Revolution and its simply regurgitated cold war propaganda.


But seriously… if you think we're maoists because we want to murder everyone and the whole world [please note that some of this propaganda relies on taking statements like this out of context and I'm sure some reactionary somewhere is going to wrench several words out of there coherent structure and quote me as saying "we want to murder everyone and the whole world"] then just stop identifying as left-wing now. I'm sure you can have a happier and less confused life identifying as a liberal.




3. Maoists are class collaborationists.


This is the best. Do you know how many times I've run into some ortho-Trot and been screamed at based on hir half-baked understanding of Mao's theory of "New Democracy". The argument goes as follows: in the Chinese Revolution Mao believed in a class alliance with nascent elements of the national bourgeoisie in order to build the context for socialism… ergo maoism is all about class collaboration. The best is when these same ortho-Trots start yelling about the supposed "maoist" failure in countries such as Indonesia where communists who were somewhat influenced by the Chinese Revolution liquidated themselves in Sukarno's nationalist project and were destroyed. "EXPLAIN YOUR ACTIONS IN INDONESIA!" they shout at panels, thinking they have made some super brilliant point.

Let's be clear: 1) we maoists do not believe in some homogenous tradition with a great leader (i.e. Mao) who was always right just as the Prophet Trotsky was always right; 2) maoism was first theorized by the Peruvian revolutionaries in 1988 and then by the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement in 1993 and so did not exist as a theory in these random and confused revolutionary moments you mention––so sorry, you're talking about moments that have nothing to do with us so stop projecting; 3) you don't even understand the supposed "maoist" theory you're attacking in the first place.

The theory of New Democracy, which I won't get into here, is about how to build a socialist movement in peripheral countries. By grasping the fact that revolutionary delinking is necessary, that it is important to build up the forces necessary for socialism (and that don't exist in semi-feudal, semi-colonial contexts), the theory argued for an alliance with progressive aspects of the national bourgeoisie. It did not argue for the liquidation of communists within these classes (as, for example, the communists did in Indonesia) but that these classes should be liquidated within the growing sphere of the proletariat. The class in command was what was important and so these other situations you speak of, though you might think they have something to do with either maoism or "Mao Zedong Thought", are utterly alien to the theory of New Democracy––in Indonesia, for example, it was clear that the "class in command" question wasn't satisfied so to even bring it up as some sort of argument is laughable. Just as your belief that maoism existed as it does today at the point in time is a joke: please stop projecting us back on the past to fit your bizarre and ahistorical arguments about reality.




4. Maoists are third worldist layabouts.


Since we believe, following Lenin, that revolution is more likely to happen at the weakest link of world capitalism, and that a labour aristocracy is predominant at the centres of capitalism, we are often accused of being Third Worldists who are under the impression that revolution is impossible at the centres of capitalism.

Yes, there is something called Maoism Third Worldism, but it is an offshoot of "Mao Zedong Thought" that emerged before Marxism-Leninism-Maoism was theorized. In other words, most of the worldwide maoist movement doesn't think that Maoism Third Worldism counts as maoism-proper and some of us find it as asinine as the rest of you. Truthfully, we don't deny some of its claims; we simply feel that they lack nuance, are not the product of proper social investigation, are undialectical, and are generally the product of theoretical confusion. We generally respect, however, the willingness of Maoist Third Worldists to reassert the problem of the "labour aristocracy"; we just think that its belief in a global Peoples War––where there is no point at organizing at the centres of imperialism, where we should leave revolutionary praxis to third world movements, and where we should just provide these movements with our "brilliant" insights––is itself also a product of first world elitism.

(And again, I emphasize, "maoism" did not appear as a theory until after this "Maoist Third Worldist" ideology emerged. And the latter emerged only in first world countries whereas the former was promoted primarily by the third world countries the latter was supposedly theorized to support.)

Nor does the fact that Maoism Third Worldism is the product of our general theoretical tradition fill us with much trepidation. At least it is a theoretical trajectory that cares about world revolution and is less revisionist than the trajectories in other traditions… It is not, regardless of its problems, entryism.




5. Maoists are uber-dogmatists.


Compared to what? Compared to your movementist dogmatism that dogmatically rejects all talk of a revolutionary party? Seriously, I don't understand why our tradition is treated as "more dogmatic" than the Troskyism and post-Trotskyism that is the normative fact of communist building in the mainstream left in, say, Toronto. Nor do I understand why it is entirely "dogmatic" to challenge a movementist status quo and suggest we should think of what has worked, historically, for revolutionary movements.

Obviously there are maoists who are dogmatists. But then, to be fair, there are dogmatists in every left-wing tradition. Hell, there are even anarchists who like to think they're all about being non-dogmatic who are the worst kind of dogmatists precisely because they think they are beyond dogma!




6. Isn't Maoism something that happened in the 1970s and maybe the early 80s?


As indicated in some of the above categories, the general ignorance of what maoism is and when it emerged allows for people to make all sorts of wild assertions about maoism that actually do not apply to Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. If you cannot first define what it is you are critiquing, after all, your critiques will be meaningless.

The intrepid critics of maoism who do not want to the work of actually reading modern maoist texts about theory (it's not so hard to find the RIM statement online, folks, and it's just a short overview of the theory of MLM!) like to go back to the Chinese Revolution, provide some messy analysis of what they think happened there [often this falls back on an erroneous reading of the theory of New Democracy, see point 3 above], go on about how it failed [but give the wrong reasons for its failure because you haven't thoroughly studied said revolution], and then apply these failures upon organic and revolutionary maoist movements happening today.

That maoism thing, we're supposed to believe, kind of died at the end of the 1970s because China went state capitalist. Even worse, sometimes we're supposed to accept that the capitalist roaders running the Chinese State are somehow "maoist", or at least the logical result of "maoism"… Everyone has a good chuckle at how antiquated this maoism is!

But aside from being a critique from the right that is ultimately counter-revolutionary, it really doesn't apply to maoism. Let me again state, as I have stated many times before (and even in this post), maoism wasn't theorized until 1988 and 1993. Before that, there was no such thing as "maoism" in a coherent manner: maoists were anti-revisionist communists who supported China over the Soviet Union, there was something called Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought where Mao was treated as a better interpreter of Marxism-Leninism than Stalin, and though there was some indication that people were thinking towards the concept of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism on the whole there was no such thing as "maoism" proper. This is why we maintain that the Chinese Revolution wasn't a "maoist" revolution but the revolution that produced the theoretical insights that would allow us to theorize maoism; similarly, the Bolshevik Revolution wasn't a "leninist" revolution but produced the theoretical insights that would lead to theorization of leninism.


Point being, if you're going to critique maoism at least demonstrate some understanding of when it emerged as a theory rather than going on and on about your bad understanding of the errors of the Chinese Revolution. Maoists also critique the short-comings of the Chinese Revolution, just as Leninists critique the short-comings of the Russian Revolution, so we really aren't devastated by the insight that these revolutions failed. Clearly they failed; the point, as I have always maintained, is to understand why they failed and what they taught us. (And these failures, it is worth pointing out, aren't the fantasy failures indicated by the usually bad, orientalist, and ahistorical analyses trotted out by supposedly "left" critiques of the Chinese Revolution [or Russian Revolution, for that matter].) So critiquing what we critique, and what produced the theory of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism in the first place, isn't really damning… especially if your understanding of history is wonky.




7. Maoists are just anarchists pretending to be communists.


I like this one because it appeals to my anarchist past. Nor can it can be denied that there are a lot of maoists who used to be anarchists… but then again, there are a lot of communists of all marxist stripes who used to be anarchists and vice versa. In any case, this charge is rather amusing because if you ask any dyed-in-the-wool hardcore anarchist if maoists are anarchist they will probably throw a fit of Kronstadt proportions.


Usually this charge is levelled at maoists who are active at the centres of capitalism by marxist groups that are generally suspicious of militancy in their social context, are used to abiding by reformism in practice, and have sometimes gone out of their way to paint anarchist militants as agents provocateurs, adventurists, lumpen who put people in danger, etc. Maoism, being a form of revolutionary communism that disdains reformist practice and thinks communists should not have a gap between theory and practice, believes that the militant practice of anarchists at the centres of capitalism is laudable. The only difference is that we maoists think this practice should be theoretically unified under a militant party organization (but one with a mass-line) so that it can be transformed into revolutionary practice. And this difference, obviously, puts us theoretically at odds with anarchists.

Even still, since anarchists are keeping militancy alive at the centres of capitalism and other communists would prefer to march with labour aristocrats, practice entryism, or have official "parades" where the police are assured they won't do anything bad, then I'm all for working with anarchists. Maybe it is better to work with honest militants than those whose practice has become either economistic or opportunist.




8. In lieu of peasants, Maoists think the "lumpenproletariat" is the revolutionary subject.


I hear this a lot. It's like the would-be critics of maoism really have to believe that maoists are opposed to the idea that the proletariat are the grave-diggers of capitalism and so, even in capitalist modes of production where proletarianization is generally complete, we just have to find some other class to be our revolutionary subject. I mean, once we get it into the minds of critics that we do not believe the peasantry is valid social class at the centres of capitalism and we aren't looking for this non-existent peasantry [see point #1], suddenly we're being told that we're focusing on the lumpenproletariat. Similar to hipsters who won't like a brilliant musician simply because they're no longer indie, we maoists are trying to be all edgy and different with class: "Hahaha, you're still into the proletariat––how lame is that?!?!? The lumpen is where it's at!"

Earlier I posted on the concept of the lumpenproletariat because I was tired of hearing all this garbage about the PCR-RCP being a "lumpen organization"––a charge that, in my opinion, resulted from the following ignorant assumptions: a) the PCR-RCP is maoist and so can't be into the proletariat; b) it has more worker looking people than my petty bourgeois organization so I'm going to call them lumpen because I don't want to believe it's organizing proletarians because only my group can organize proletarians; c) I don't know what lumpenproletariat means.

As I pointed out in the entry cited above, the "reserve army of labour" and non-unionized workers do not count as "the lumpenproletariat"––but, since I already went into that problem in great detail, I won't bother repeating myself here. I'll just content myself with saying that we maoists see the proletariat as the revolutionary subject but that (as asserted in point #1) we think that social investigation is required to locate the most proletarianized part of the working class in any given society.




9. Maoists are macho masculinists because they talk about things like Peoples War.


While it is true that there are maoists who are quite probably macho masculinists, there are macho masculinists in every leftist grouping because, patriarchy being what it is, macho egotism is pretty widespread amongst even the left. But let's also be clear: the best revolutionary feminist work in the past three decades has been produced by maoists and maoist-influenced thinkers: Hisila Yami's People's War and Women's Liberation, Butch Lee's Night-Vision, the collected work of Anuradha Ghandy (who was responsible for coining the term "proletarian feminism"), etc.

Unfortunately there is a type of thinking that tries to claim that any talk of violent struggle is somehow "masculine" and thus maoists, who talk about things like "Peoples War", must also be "masculinist" even if they're women. This is pretty stupid reformist garbage masquerading as progressive, though, and since we are communists we don't believe there will be a peaceful revolution; we think, in fact, that it is pretty non-masculinist to have women's militias (as the People's War in Nepal, when it was at its height, tried to promote) and we think it might be somewhat offensive to tell these women's militias that they are "acting like men" when they are fighting to overthrow the terms of their oppression.


10. Maoists are stupid.

Indeed.

http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.in/2012/07/misconceptions-about-maoism.html

Le Socialiste
29th September 2012, 01:18
Although maoism has been the most vital form of revolutionary communism in the world since the 1990s...

Well that's assuming a lot...

The Douche
29th September 2012, 01:28
Well that's assuming a lot...

He means that Maoists have the largest and most long lasting insurgencies since the 90s and are the only communists to have carried out revolution in that time frame. He's more or less correct.

Grenzer
29th September 2012, 01:34
The biggest misconception about Maoism is that it is a form of communism.

Le Socialiste
29th September 2012, 01:35
But the most "vital form of revolutionary communism"? Sorry, no dice.

GoddessCleoLover
29th September 2012, 01:45
What do the broad masses of the Chinese people think about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution as examples of Maoism in practice?

TheGodlessUtopian
29th September 2012, 01:47
I'll look forward to the person that gives a thoughtful response to the OP as this thread could be interesting if such happens (not that these threads haven't happened before but it is always entertaining to see how each person defends their position).

Os Cangaceiros
29th September 2012, 01:50
But aside from being a critique from the right that is ultimately counter-revolutionary, it really doesn't apply to maoism. Let me again state, as I have stated many times before (and even in this post), maoism wasn't theorized until 1988 and 1993. Before that, there was no such thing as "maoism" in a coherent manner

So the origin of "Maoism" is two dates, in the late 80's and early 90's? I'm pretty sure that it existed before then. In fact people were using the "Maoist" label before then, such as the Maoist Communist Centre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoist_Communist_Centre) in India, formed in 1975. The fundamental concepts that constituted Maoism existed way before the 90's. I honestly don't understand this point at all.

Also, Maoists are sometimes vicious murderers, it's true. Case in point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asama-Sanso_incident)

Ostrinski
29th September 2012, 01:55
URA were pretty insane, though. I'd be pretty surprised to see many Maoists vouch for them.

Os Cangaceiros
29th September 2012, 02:02
Perhaps, but I've seen a number of Maoists on this site defend the Shining Path, and the Shining Path makes the URA look like Boy Scouts by comparison. :lol:

Lev Bronsteinovich
29th September 2012, 02:08
I am trying to understand how Maoism as a movement, began in the 1990s. Having been alive in the 60s and politically aware in the 70s, I am sure that there were many groups that ascribed to some sort of Maoism (e.g., the RU/RCP, PLP, Communist Viewpoint, CPML, etc.). That Maoism has provided an ideology to Shining Path, and the Nepalese Insurgents might be viewed as some kind of proof of its superiority, but I would not agree. Those movements are neither Marxist nor Leninist.

As for Indonesia in 1965, comrade, MAO and the CCP strongly encouraged the PKI to ally with Sukharno -- an act of suicide that led to the deaths of 500K Indonesians, many of them communists (the PKI was the largest Communist Party in a capitalist country at that time). This was part and parcel of Mao's ideology of the Block of Four Classes. If that's not Maoism, what is?

Main issue, I think is that Maosim is a particular brand of Stalinism. It favors the peasant over the worker, it is organized top down without democratic centralism, and most importantly, it is nationalistic.

GoddessCleoLover
29th September 2012, 02:42
Does it make any sense to discuss theoretical Maoism divorced from the realities of Maoism in practice, to wit the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution?

LiquidBryan
29th September 2012, 02:43
Regardless of whether China was socialist during Mao's reign, I think Maoism does offer some insightful ideas that deserve to at least be considered by Communists. Like the People's War and Third-World Theory. Unfortunately, it also includes a few bad ideas that belong in the graveyard, like the fiery nationalism, which is antithetical to true communism.

My biggest grumble with Mao is how he kept ties with Pol Pot, the mass murderer who was a Communist in name only. Maoism is the opposite of Trotskyism in that it excludes the working class from the revolution, whereas Trotskyism excludes the peasants. Both are bad strategies for propelling a revolution.

Maybe the reason Maoism focuses on the peasants because they suffer the most under Capitalism. Nonetheless, I still think it's a mistake to leave the working class out. If anything, combining both groups strengthens the Revolution, so why leave one group out?

Despite my complaints with Maoism, what's your justification for connecting Maoism with the URA? It's irresponsible to blame Maoism for the actions of the leader of the URA. It's about as logical as blaming terrorism on Islam.

All my complaints aside, I really am a fervent supporter of Maoism. Especially in this day and age when it's at the forefront of the struggle in the third-world. If we filtered out the few ideas in it that aren't good, we could have a stellar ideology fit for any potential Communist country.

Yuppie Grinder
29th September 2012, 03:08
Maoists are primarily concerned with ideological purity and dismiss anyone who questions the established party line as a revisionist. They are not scientific socialists, and therefore not Marxists.
Also, like other sorts of Stalinists they confuse the DotP for the lower stage of communism.

Questionable
29th September 2012, 03:26
I've spoken to this guy. He's a moderator for the reddit forum of communism, r/communism. As you can tell he (And most of the moderator team) are strong Maoists. I got into a debate with him one time where he said that white proletarians were less likely to be revolutionary but it was kind of confusing because he used a lot of terms like "class reductionism" that I hadn't heard of and had no definition of.

If anybody wants to ask questions or debate you're welcome to message him, he posts very frequently under the username "jmp3903": http://www.reddit.com/r/communism/

EDIT: My bad, turns out he's not actually a moderator, still a big member of the community though.

JoeySteel
29th September 2012, 03:33
When the author says "Maoist" he is specifically denoting "Maoism" as a relatively new ideological polarity distinct from previous incarnations of Marxism-Leninism-Mao Tse Tung Thought and arguing that "Maoism" is a distinct movement that emerged in the late 1980's/early 1990's. I don't agree with it and think it's a whole lot of myth making but that's why this new fashionable conception of Maoism doesn't consider groups who might have identified as Maoist to be "Maoist", rather still held back by only adhering to Marxism-Leninism and Mao Tse Tung Thought. There's actually a fair amount written on this but I don't think it adds up to much. To be fair and clear though, they're not especially concerned with this or that question of PRC history since not even the CPC was properly Maoist at least according to how I understand their scheme.

Break Free1017
29th September 2012, 05:42
Maoism being "the most vital form of revolutionary communism?" I don't think so. To me, the communist movement lies in the self-movement of the class as a class. Asia is being swept by all sorts of wildcat strikes and mass proletarian unrest, from garment female workers in Bangladesh, to the bloody shopfloor battles being waged by Chinese and Indian workers. Of course Maoists are nowhere to be found there, because Maoism has nothing to do with the self-movement of the proletariat, and everything to do with bloody, gang warfare based (like almost all gang activity in the world) on the most miserable and marginalized sectors of society. The Maoist story is always the same, a bunch of sociopathic dropouts from the local philosophy department with daddy issues going to the countryside and trying to make some peasants shoot some cops and soldiers, and manipulating the the worse aspects of peasant revengism for their political goals. No better than other gangs and bourgeois low lives who do the same thing.

Hiero
29th September 2012, 09:01
What do the broad masses of the Chinese people think about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution as examples of Maoism in practice?

That answer would be 'quite alot'. The biggest misconception about Maoism, is that it is a closed theory. It's theory on dialectics makes it quite contingent on local conditions.

Marxaveli
29th September 2012, 09:22
The biggest misconception about Maoism is that it is a form of communism.

Or even Marxism itself for that matter.

Maoism is garbage, plain and simple. It is completely grounded in Idealism and thus is incompatible with the science of Marxism.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
29th September 2012, 10:39
Do Maoists believe in the self-liberation and self-rule of the working class? No. Maoist revolutions always result in dictatorships over the workers.

ind_com
29th September 2012, 10:52
So the origin of "Maoism" is two dates, in the late 80's and early 90's? I'm pretty sure that it existed before then. In fact people were using the "Maoist" label before then, such as the Maoist Communist Centre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoist_Communist_Centre) in India, formed in 1975. The fundamental concepts that constituted Maoism existed way before the 90's. I honestly don't understand this point at all.


The word 'Maoist' can simply mean support for China under Mao. 'Maoism' was first spoken of by Lin Biao. But even then, most of his followers abroad kept using 'Mao Tsetung thought'. They came to be known as Lin Biaoists later on. Later the PCP(SL) used the term 'Maoism' to generalize the Chinese road of revolution for all the neo colonies. This line consolidated itself in the 80s, and they called Lin Biaoists as left opportunists. Maoist groups of today consider that period as the starting point of Maoism. However, recently the PCP(SL) has denounced Gonzalo's line as left-opportunistic. So the starting point of Maoism is associated more with the advancement of the people's wars worldwide in the 80s and 90s, rather than the contemporary line of the PCP(SL) alone.

ind_com
29th September 2012, 11:05
Maoism being "the most vital form of revolutionary communism?" I don't think so. To me, the communist movement lies in the self-movement of the class as a class. Asia is being swept by all sorts of wildcat strikes and mass proletarian unrest, from garment female workers in Bangladesh, to the bloody shopfloor battles being waged by Chinese and Indian workers. Of course Maoists are nowhere to be found there, because Maoism has nothing to do with the self-movement of the proletariat, and everything to do with bloody, gang warfare based (like almost all gang activity in the world) on the most miserable and marginalized sectors of society. The Maoist story is always the same, a bunch of sociopathic dropouts from the local philosophy department with daddy issues going to the countryside and trying to make some peasants shoot some cops and soldiers, and manipulating the the worse aspects of peasant revengism for their political goals. No better than other gangs and bourgeois low lives who do the same thing.

Hilarious, but not original. You should have cited the author of the post quoted below after copying his jokes.


blahblahgblahblah some kkkanadian dude in ontario and his r-r-r-r-r- evolutionary credentials. certainly my vegan potluck (lol if it existed) is as relevant to anything as some stalinist artist wanker in motherfuckin ontario pushing the rrrrrevolutionary PR line for situations that he has no modicrum of influence. anyway alberta pride yo

edit: just because the admins always accuse me of trolling and flaming i am going to elaborate on my view. we have a totally different view of what being "pro-rev" means. to you, it is following certain groups of cadre that expouse a sort of enlightened revolutionary evangelism, in your case it being maoist theology. so to you its all about the good chosen ones with the correct line and theology fighting the good fight for the good of the masses. to me, the communist movement lies in the self-movement of the class as a class. for itself. asia is being swept by all sorts of wildcat strikes and mass proletarian unrest, from garment female workers in bangladesh, to the bloody shopfloor battles being waged by chinese and indian workers. of course maoists are nowhere to be found there, because maoism has nothing to do with the self-movement of the proletariat, and everything to do with bloody, gang warfare based (like almost all gang activity in the world) on the most miserable and marginalized sectors of society. the maoist story is always the same, a bunch of sociopathic dropouts from the local philosophy department with daddy issues going to the countryside and trying to make some peasants shoot some cops and soldiers, and manipulating the the worse aspects of peasant revengism for their political goals. no better than other gangs and bourgeois low lives who do the same thing. (see sendero luminoso and the sociopath presidente gonzalo for the worst aspects of maoism)

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2240654&postcount=22

ind_com
29th September 2012, 11:18
Regardless of whether China was socialist during Mao's reign, I think Maoism does offer some insightful ideas that deserve to at least be considered by Communists. Like the People's War and Third-World Theory. Unfortunately, it also includes a few bad ideas that belong in the graveyard, like the fiery nationalism, which is antithetical to true communism.

My biggest grumble with Mao is how he kept ties with Pol Pot, the mass murderer who was a Communist in name only. Maoism is the opposite of Trotskyism in that it excludes the working class from the revolution, whereas Trotskyism excludes the peasants. Both are bad strategies for propelling a revolution.

Maybe the reason Maoism focuses on the peasants because they suffer the most under Capitalism. Nonetheless, I still think it's a mistake to leave the working class out. If anything, combining both groups strengthens the Revolution, so why leave one group out?

Despite my complaints with Maoism, what's your justification for connecting Maoism with the URA? It's irresponsible to blame Maoism for the actions of the leader of the URA. It's about as logical as blaming terrorism on Islam.

All my complaints aside, I really am a fervent supporter of Maoism. Especially in this day and age when it's at the forefront of the struggle in the third-world. If we filtered out the few ideas in it that aren't good, we could have a stellar ideology fit for any potential Communist country.

It is good to see that you support Maoism. However, your understanding of the relationship of Maoism with the working class is not correct. The article itself sheds some light on the topic. Please let me know if you are interested in having a detailed discussion on this question.

Lev Bronsteinovich
29th September 2012, 15:51
Comrades, just calling Maoism names doesn't explain it or combat its influence. In the US in the late 60s a large number of the best subjectively revolutionary youth were drawn toward it as a more radical alternative to CP or SWP politics. PLP, which drew a large chunk of recruits from SDS -- was a serious leftist group, albeit very flawed.

The CCP and Mao SOUNDED more radical than the Moscow based PCs. And the GPCR seemed very radical and appealed to petty bourgeois youth looking to become revolutionaries.

The Chinese Revolution was a major victory to the world proletariat and especially to the people of China. However, their nationalistic, bureaucratic policies have often been at odds with making a world revolution and include betrayals as forming an alliance with the US against the USSR and Vietnam during the Vietnam war. Their ongoing concessions to capitalism and the world market threaten the remaining gains of the Chinese Revolution.

The groups that issue from the RYM piece of SDS went on to coalesce around the rather sad RCP and CPML. The idea that Maoism represents something new in the 90s is bizarre. Have you guys actually read Mao? Again, it is a variant of Stalinism. Narrow, bureaucratic, and very nationalistic. It surprises me that Maoism attracts adherents in this day and age. But I guess if Hoxha still has a following. . . . :)

ind_com
29th September 2012, 17:27
Comrades, just calling Maoism names doesn't explain it or combat its influence. In the US in the late 60s a large number of the best subjectively revolutionary youth were drawn toward it as a more radical alternative to CP or SWP politics. PLP, which drew a large chunk of recruits from SDS -- was a serious leftist group, albeit very flawed.

The CCP and Mao SOUNDED more radical than the Moscow based PCs. And the GPCR seemed very radical and appealed to petty bourgeois youth looking to become revolutionaries.

The Chinese Revolution was a major victory to the world proletariat and especially to the people of China. However, their nationalistic, bureaucratic policies have often been at odds with making a world revolution and include betrayals as forming an alliance with the US against the USSR and Vietnam during the Vietnam war. Their ongoing concessions to capitalism and the world market threaten the remaining gains of the Chinese Revolution.
I must say that this line is very unexpected when it comes from a Trot.

The groups that issue from the RYM piece of SDS went on to coalesce around the rather sad RCP and CPML. The idea that Maoism represents something new in the 90s is bizarre. Have you guys actually read Mao? Again, it is a variant of Stalinism. Narrow, bureaucratic, and very nationalistic.

This is a line more expected from you.


It surprises me that Maoism attracts adherents in this day and age. But I guess if Hoxha still has a following. . . . :) If it surprises you, then why don't you do some investigation to find out why Maoism is expanding so fast, and successfully developing class war in so many places?

Lev Bronsteinovich
30th September 2012, 01:14
I must say that this line is very unexpected when it comes from a Trot.


This is a line more expected from you.

If it surprises you, then why don't you do some investigation to find out why Maoism is expanding so fast, and successfully developing class war in so many places?
Well, Trotskyists defend the gains of the Chinese revolution. Just as we defended the gains of the Russian Revolution until capitalism was restored in 1991-1992. If that is a surprise, maybe you should read some Trotsky.

But, okay, fair enough, I'm not up on the latest in Maoism, and I don't have a great grip on why Maoism has attracted large numbers of supporters in some places (Peru, Nepal, ?). My quick take is that these are rather backward and isolated places where a peasant-based guerilla approach might be most attractive. But what do I know? Any pithy readings that you would recommend? And where is it that Maoists are successfully leading class war, in your opinion?

ind_com
30th September 2012, 07:19
Well, Trotskyists defend the gains of the Chinese revolution. Just as we defended the gains of the Russian Revolution until capitalism was restored in 1991-1992. If that is a surprise, maybe you should read some Trotsky.

I am aware of Trotsky's own line on China. But most Trots nowadays come up with a weird line claiming that no revolution happened in China and it was capitalist and reactionary right from the beginning etc etc.


But, okay, fair enough, I'm not up on the latest in Maoism, and I don't have a great grip on why Maoism has attracted large numbers of supporters in some places (Peru, Nepal, ?). My quick take is that these are rather backward and isolated places where a peasant-based guerilla approach might be most attractive. But what do I know? Any pithy readings that you would recommend? And where is it that Maoists are successfully leading class war, in your opinion?

Maoist class wars are going on in four countries. But I will speak only about India, since I don't know about the others in details. India is less developed than the average west European capitalist country, but by no means is it isolated. It has a big working class in absolute numbers, a portion of which is concentrated in the cities. The Indian working class numbers no less than 7 crores. It is is a very big working class in absolute numbers, though it is relatively quite small compared to the Indian peasantry.

However, since it is a neo colony, India is politically very fascistic, like other neo-colonies. So any revolutionary movement here must be clandestine and armed. A peasant-based guerrilla approach is applicable not because it is most attractive, but because Maoists have no alternative theory about initiating an armed revolutionary movement in a peasant dominated country, with a strong and stable state and a well-maintained army. In fact, earlier they had no scientific line for developed capitalist countries at all. The Maoist military line for developed capitalist countries is not even ten years old. So, before that period, the countries where Maoism was applied have been exclusively neo-colonial in nature.

One more point; once you have a good armed struggle and control territories, you automatically have the resources to create and sustain organizations in a much more widespread area. Hence, the Maoist armed struggle in India enables Maoists to maintain what is the largest clandestine workers' base in history. This helps to exercise a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry over the movement, and direct it towards the goal of communism. Below are the links to some reports and documents, some of them are a bit old or translated badly. But if you are interested in the detailed study of the Indian Maoist movement, do give them a try.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120415/jsp/nation/story_15376010.jsp

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/maoist-posters-on-city-buses-go-unnoticed-for-over-a-month/947176/2

http://www.signalfire.org/?p=21092

https://341ba952-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/sakethrajan/book-lic-is-the-cruelest-war-on-revolutionaries.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpV2J03SyI_Cvm VTef18qdWLj4MT2LJXXapBziAfL1giBaHmMnuVzPv_CcxTa4pS OLK3t7YoYH1aThTdQuptKZP364Js9FoTkKdFFoUgf33OWuCdEV wcNJxs_pnFqIEff2ViMR_zDW8HfoQ50c4mNTgNhEIIoMdMx7ny Zm6YiN8FLRChsV89S-X5nfz5yUlGudlAKzg_yxUs18gHBTm4AiGP6DesYVYkxyjjywRg 9gZG0LfhM_lWM0ye_Q6a2tmVUjdw67T&attredirects=1

http://www.bannedthought.net/India/CPI-Maoist-Docs/Statements-2012/Compilation-July2010-July2012_Eng.pdf

Comrades Unite!
30th September 2012, 16:16
Or even Marxism itself for that matter.

Maoism is garbage, plain and simple. It is completely grounded in Idealism and thus is incompatible with the science of Marxism.

How so? Please tell us why Maoism is garbage?

Vladimir Innit Lenin
30th September 2012, 18:08
Maoist class wars are going on in four countries. But I will speak only about India, since I don't know about the others in details. India is less developed than the average west European capitalist country, but by no means is it isolated. It has a big working class in absolute numbers, a portion of which is concentrated in the cities. The Indian working class numbers no less than 7 crores. It is is a very big working class in absolute numbers, though it is relatively quite small compared to the Indian peasantry.

However, since it is a neo colony, India is politically very fascistic, like other neo-colonies. So any revolutionary movement here must be clandestine and armed. A peasant-based guerrilla approach is applicable not because it is most attractive, but because Maoists have no alternative theory about initiating an armed revolutionary movement in a peasant dominated country, with a strong and stable state and a well-maintained army. In fact, earlier they had no scientific line for developed capitalist countries at all. The Maoist military line for developed capitalist countries is not even ten years old. So, before that period, the countries where Maoism was applied have been exclusively neo-colonial in nature.

One more point; once you have a good armed struggle and control territories, you automatically have the resources to create and sustain organizations in a much more widespread area. Hence, the Maoist armed struggle in India enables Maoists to maintain what is the largest clandestine workers' base in history. This helps to exercise a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry over the movement, and direct it towards the goal of communism. Below are the links to some reports and documents, some of them are a bit old or translated badly. But if you are interested in the detailed study of the Indian Maoist movement, do give them a try.



This is all quite interesting, but I do have some questions:

1. Marxism is traditionally associated with the inevitability of Capitalism (proved correct) and of it's demise. Marx viewed Capitalism as an admirable advance on early Feudalism, in that it developed living standards to the point where basic needs could generally be met. His theory, in most basic and layman terms, dictates that Capitalism develops through the accumulation of capital, itself a product of the exploitation of a growing working class. This working class then revolts out of self-interest, overthrows capital and Socialism is born. So, where is the link - in Maoist theory - between armed struggle by the rural peasant guerillas, and the defeat of Capitalism by the uprising of the working class? Capitalism is necessary for Socialism, since there is no working class when social relations are only developed at feudal level. So how do you go from a relatively backward society to Socialism/communism?

2. In areas won by guerilla war, presumably the guerillas assume political control. In maoist theory, how are these areas to be administered? What sort of political democracy occurs? Is there any sort of democracy? Is there a sort of commune-communal aim to establish an autarkical, separatist territory until further gains are made, or is the aim the State Capitalism that Lenin describes as the aim for the USSR in the 1920s?

Rugged Collectivist
30th September 2012, 21:41
in the Chinese Revolution Mao believed in a class alliance with nascent elements of the national bourgeoisie in order to build the context for socialism

I'm sorry, but how is this anything other than class collaborationism?

ind_com
1st October 2012, 13:32
This is all quite interesting, but I do have some questions:

1. Marxism is traditionally associated with the inevitability of Capitalism (proved correct) and of it's demise. Marx viewed Capitalism as an admirable advance on early Feudalism, in that it developed living standards to the point where basic needs could generally be met. His theory, in most basic and layman terms, dictates that Capitalism develops through the accumulation of capital, itself a product of the exploitation of a growing working class. This working class then revolts out of self-interest, overthrows capital and Socialism is born. So, where is the link - in Maoist theory - between armed struggle by the rural peasant guerillas, and the defeat of Capitalism by the uprising of the working class? Capitalism is necessary for Socialism, since there is no working class when social relations are only developed at feudal level. So how do you go from a relatively backward society to Socialism/communism?

2. In areas won by guerilla war, presumably the guerillas assume political control. In maoist theory, how are these areas to be administered? What sort of political democracy occurs? Is there any sort of democracy? Is there a sort of commune-communal aim to establish an autarkical, separatist territory until further gains are made, or is the aim the State Capitalism that Lenin describes as the aim for the USSR in the 1920s?

In certain points, Maoist theory is very different from traditional Marxist theory. Maoists see communism more as a demand rather than something capitalism will inevitably turn to. As a demand of the working class, communism is compatible with its class characteristics and is a possible outcome of its class struggle against the bourgeoisie. But communism will be possible only if the working class manages to overthrow the bourgeoisie worldwide and eliminate its remnants from the society.

Maoists define various stages of the society principally according to the class contradictions and their nature. Communism itself is a classless society. Every society before communism has classes and therefore class contradictions. Socialism is defined as a society where the proletariat exercises its dictatorship, with support from the semi-proletarian classes, on the bourgeoisie.

Traditional Marxism predicts revolutions in the most technically and economically developed capitalist countries. However, the proletariat declares open class war on the bourgeoisie if and only if peace is a worse option for it, meaning that the material conditions of the proletariat have to be so miserable, that it will be obliged to take military actions against the bourgeoisie even though retaliation will be fierce. For this reason, Marx identified the periods of crisis in the cycles of capitalism as the most favourable moments for revolution. But today, capitalism in the more developed countries makes super-profit out of their neo-colonies. So even during capitalist crises, the condition of the proletariat is not favourable for attacking capitalism militarily. On the other hand, conditions in the neo-colonies always favours military actions by the working classes. So the capitalist countries are unlikely to have revolutions before the neo-colonial countries.

In the neo-colonial countries, the working class and peasantry jointly wage a revolutionary war against imperialism, feudalism and comprador-capitalism. Due to technical reasons, the military actions of the revolutionary war are initially concentrated in the peasant-dominated, rural areas. However, the revolution requires proletarian leadership at every stage, because today the peasantry cannot successfully lead a revolution against imperialism.

The peasantry itself is not a single class. As soon as the revolution frees them from neo-colonial relations of production, they transform into their corresponding classes of capitalism. These classes include the proletariat, the semi-proletarian classes, the petty bourgeoisie and even the national bourgeoisie. But since the new democratic revolution witnessed a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, the revolution now turns into a socialist one, with the newly formed proletarian and semi-proletarian classes from the peasantry now joining the proletariat. This itself is the socialist stage.

I will later post the answer to your second question.

Hiero
1st October 2012, 13:52
My biggest grumble with Mao is how he kept ties with Pol Pot, the mass murderer who was a Communist in name only

Pol Pot came the leader of Democratic Kampuchea in april 1975 and Mao was dead by September 1976. Mao's health deteriorated in the last year of his life. Given the political context of the world, Democratic Kampuchea looked like a worthwhile ally to oppose Soviet influence, there was nothing unusual about what Pol Pot was doing at this time. I imagine that Hua Guefeng or Deng Xiapong had no idea what was going on in Cambodia. It is sort of an irrelevant point.

citizen of industry
1st October 2012, 14:11
I've been wondering what Maoists perscribe for class-conscious workers in advanced capitalist countries. Since as you say conditions are always ripe for military action in the third world, but not in the imperialist countries until conditions deteriorate to starvation point, what does a communist worker in an imperialist country do, move to a neo-colonial country and organize the population from the outside? I'm not trying to start a polemic, I've just always wondered about Maoist organizational practice in the imperialist countries. Is it based on urban insurrectionism without a revolutionary situation?

It does seem Maoism is very different from Marxism, especially the concept of relative impoverishment, which it seems to reject wholesale. And also the later Engels on military action being conditional on mass support and support of the soldiers, which was later achieved in Russia. I wonder if the quantitative rejection of certain fundamental concepts of marxism doesn't result in a qualitative change.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
1st October 2012, 16:45
Pol Pot came the leader of Democratic Kampuchea in april 1975 and Mao was dead by September 1976. Mao's health deteriorated in the last year of his life. Given the political context of the world, Democratic Kampuchea looked like a worthwhile ally to oppose Soviet influence, there was nothing unusual about what Pol Pot was doing at this time. I imagine that Hua Guefeng or Deng Xiapong had no idea what was going on in Cambodia. It is sort of an irrelevant point.

Ah, the whitewashing of history.

Why can't you just say, "it was wrong to associated with the Khmer Rouge", and just leave it at that?

Yeah, i'm sure the fucking leaders of China had no idea what was going on in Cambodia.

But yeah, you're right, next to the imperialism of the USSR, USA and rest of the capitalist-led world, the genocidal maniacs of the Khmer Rouge probably did fit right in. Something we can agree on.:rolleyes:

Lev Bronsteinovich
1st October 2012, 17:56
I am aware of Trotsky's own line on China. But most Trots nowadays come up with a weird line claiming that no revolution happened in China and it was capitalist and reactionary right from the beginning etc etc.



Maoist class wars are going on in four countries. But I will speak only about India, since I don't know about the others in details. India is less developed than the average west European capitalist country, but by no means is it isolated. It has a big working class in absolute numbers, a portion of which is concentrated in the cities. The Indian working class numbers no less than 7 crores. It is is a very big working class in absolute numbers, though it is relatively quite small compared to the Indian peasantry.

However, since it is a neo colony, India is politically very fascistic, like other neo-colonies. So any revolutionary movement here must be clandestine and armed. A peasant-based guerrilla approach is applicable not because it is most attractive, but because Maoists have no alternative theory about initiating an armed revolutionary movement in a peasant dominated country, with a strong and stable state and a well-maintained army. In fact, earlier they had no scientific line for developed capitalist countries at all. The Maoist military line for developed capitalist countries is not even ten years old. So, before that period, the countries where Maoism was applied have been exclusively neo-colonial in nature.

One more point; once you have a good armed struggle and control territories, you automatically have the resources to create and sustain organizations in a much more widespread area. Hence, the Maoist armed struggle in India enables Maoists to maintain what is the largest clandestine workers' base in history. This helps to exercise a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry over the movement, and direct it towards the goal of communism. Below are the links to some reports and documents, some of them are a bit old or translated badly. But if you are interested in the detailed study of the Indian Maoist movement, do give them a try.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120415/jsp/nation/story_15376010.jsp

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/maoist-posters-on-city-buses-go-unnoticed-for-over-a-month/947176/2

http://www.signalfire.org/?p=21092

https://341ba952-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/sakethrajan/book-lic-is-the-cruelest-war-on-revolutionaries.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpV2J03SyI_Cvm VTef18qdWLj4MT2LJXXapBziAfL1giBaHmMnuVzPv_CcxTa4pS OLK3t7YoYH1aThTdQuptKZP364Js9FoTkKdFFoUgf33OWuCdEV wcNJxs_pnFqIEff2ViMR_zDW8HfoQ50c4mNTgNhEIIoMdMx7ny Zm6YiN8FLRChsV89S-X5nfz5yUlGudlAKzg_yxUs18gHBTm4AiGP6DesYVYkxyjjywRg 9gZG0LfhM_lWM0ye_Q6a2tmVUjdw67T&attredirects=1

http://www.bannedthought.net/India/CPI-Maoist-Docs/Statements-2012/Compilation-July2010-July2012_Eng.pdf
Well, there are many Trotskyist tendencies in the world that abandoned defense of the USSR (particularly those following Tony Cliff). They wound up defending mullahs in Afghanistan (of course so did many Maoists) against the Soviet backed PDPA. Then there are those whose defense of the USSR and the PRC was so abstract to be meaningless (USEC, Healy's IC/SEP). I think the Spartacist Tendency/ICL and it's offshoots (IBT, IG and Revolutionary Regroupment) would be the orthodox Trotskyist tendencies that properly defend the PRC against imperialist attack.

It will be a while before I have the time to do it, but I will try to follow up on some of your suggested readings. Thank you. Also my impression is that Maoism had success in India, in part, because of the close relationship of the Indian government and the USSR for many years. So the Indian CP has been particularly class-collaborationist and craven -- sending more serious revolutionaries looking for alternatives. Is there some truth to that?

Grenzer
1st October 2012, 21:25
I think the Spartacist Tendency/ICL and it's offshoots (IBT, IG and Revolutionary Regroupment) would be the orthodox Trotskyist tendencies that properly defend the PRC against imperialist attack.

There is no need to defend China as any war between China and an imperialist power would be by definition an inter-imperialist war. The correct line for such a situation is revolutionary defeatism.

Also the Spartacists are fucking insane and have no credibility among anyone, least of all the working class. They are a small bureaucratic sect organized in the same bureaucratic centralist structure as the Stalinist parties they so vehemently claim to be against.

Os Cangaceiros
2nd October 2012, 02:12
Despite my complaints with Maoism, what's your justification for connecting Maoism with the URA? It's irresponsible to blame Maoism for the actions of the leader of the URA. It's about as logical as blaming terrorism on Islam.

Er, because what would eventually become the nucleus of the URA (the Keihin Anpo Kyōto and Sekigun-ha) openly declared that they planned to use "the universal truths of Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong thought" to institute a campaign of armed struggle? Is this another case of only wanting non-embarrasing groups in your prefered communist ideology? If that's the case than none of the lunatics who claimed themselves to be revolutionary anarchists were really anarchists. None of the embarrasing Leninists were really Leninists, or if they were they were betraying the "true principles of Leninism", etc. etc. blah blah blah

Although the comparison you made of radical Islamic extremists to ordinary Islam is apt, if the analogy is one where we're comparing an especially reactionary variant of an already reactionary ideology. *BOOM* ;)

Hiero
2nd October 2012, 08:59
Ah, the whitewashing of history.

Why can't you just say, "it was wrong to associated with the Khmer Rouge", and just leave it at that?

Yeah, i'm sure the fucking leaders of China had no idea what was going on in Cambodia.

But yeah, you're right, next to the imperialism of the USSR, USA and rest of the capitalist-led world, the genocidal maniacs of the Khmer Rouge probably did fit right in. Something we can agree on.:rolleyes:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Rafiq
2nd October 2012, 20:24
The biggest misconception about Maoism is that it is a form of Marxism.

Fixed.

Rafiq
2nd October 2012, 20:26
He means that Maoists have the largest and most long lasting insurgencies since the 90s and are the only communists to have carried out revolution in that time frame. He's more or less correct.

Indeed, he is. The 1990's was a time where the ideological regression of all corners of intellectual and academic thought was finally solidified (As a result of the international defeat of the proletariat). All sorts of obscure mutations arose from this, New age garbage to maoism.

Rafiq
2nd October 2012, 20:31
Do Maoists believe in the self-liberation and self-rule of the working class? No. Maoist revolutions always result in dictatorships over the workers.

"Anarchist revolutions always result as catastrophic failures... that is, if any even existed".

The bullshit I typed above me is of the same quality as your assertion. You're proclamation is Idealist and ridiculous. Maoism is a fucked up version of Marxism Leninism, yes, though, it's important to analyze what conditions birthed such a mess, instead of saying "Wow, this idea is accountable for dictatorzshipz overz da workerz". Workers? What workers? In Mao's China, the proletariat were almost an insignificant minority.

Ocean Seal
2nd October 2012, 23:14
But the most "vital form of revolutionary communism"? Sorry, no dice.
This is probably true if you do consider Maoism communism. No one can argue that their group has done more than Maoism in Asia, Latin America, and elsewhere (for better or for worse).


Let's be clear: 1) we maoists do not believe in some homogenous tradition with a great leader (i.e. Mao) who was always right just as the Prophet Trotsky was always right; 2) maoism was first theorized by the Peruvian revolutionaries in 1988 and then by the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement in 1993 and so did not exist as a theory in these random and confused revolutionary moments you mention––so sorry, you're talking about moments that have nothing to do with us so stop projecting; 3) you don't even understand the supposed "maoist" theory you're attacking in the first place.
I genuinely don't care to insult your great leader or even to attack Maoism with this post. However, it has come to my attention that most Maoists are indeed supportive of alliances with a nascent bourgeoisie. If so then you are indeed responsible for what happened in Indonesia where bourgeois nationalists massacred a rather large communist following.

Do you support the allegiance of communists with the national bourgeoisie? Do you tow that line? If you do, and what happened in Indonesia repeats itself then Maoism is responsible and should be adapted.

Le Socialiste
2nd October 2012, 23:25
This is probably true if you do consider Maoism communism. No one can argue that their group has done more than Maoism in Asia, Latin America, and elsewhere (for better or for worse).

I don't.

Also, why is my name quoted as saying this in your post:


Originally Posted by Le Socialiste
Let's be clear: 1) we maoists do not believe in some homogenous tradition with a great leader (i.e. Mao) who was always right just as the Prophet Trotsky was always right; 2) maoism was first theorized by the Peruvian revolutionaries in 1988 and then by the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement in 1993 and so did not exist as a theory in these random and confused revolutionary moments you mention––so sorry, you're talking about moments that have nothing to do with us so stop projecting; 3) you don't even understand the supposed "maoist" theory you're attacking in the first place.

I clearly didn't say that...:confused:

the last donut of the night
3rd October 2012, 03:14
maoists are also responsible for the funniest youtube channel in internet history, let's keep that in mind

Os Cangaceiros
3rd October 2012, 04:10
They've also produced some of the best communist hardmen. :cool:

Ostrinski
3rd October 2012, 04:33
I can't decide whether I like the Maoist aesthetic or insurrectionist anarchist aesthetic better.

Yuppie Grinder
3rd October 2012, 19:57
"Anarchist revolutions always result as catastrophic failures... that is, if any even existed".

The bullshit I typed above me is of the same quality as your assertion. You're proclamation is Idealist and ridiculous. Maoism is a fucked up version of Marxism Leninism, yes, though, it's important to analyze what conditions birthed such a mess, instead of saying "Wow, this idea is accountable for dictatorzshipz overz da workerz". Workers? What workers? In Mao's China, the proletariat were almost an insignificant minority.

Maybe at the beginning of the people's republic's history, but by the end of Mao's life not at all. Under Mao, China went from a mostly feudal country to one of great industrial strength in the swiftest and grandest industrialization and proletarianization in history.
Also, just because the dude dismissed Maoist states as party dictatorships over the workers (which he's absolutely right to do so) does not mean he doesn't understand the material reasons for why Maoist China's economy was organized the way it was.

Paul Cockshott
3rd October 2012, 22:31
Do Maoists believe in the self-liberation and self-rule of the working class? No. Maoist revolutions always result in dictatorships over the workers.

This is a ludicrous distortion of the position advanced by the Maoists in China. I suggest you make a critique of what they actually said and struggled for, for example : http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/zhang/1975/01/13.htm

xvzc
8th October 2012, 16:50
I am trying to understand how Maoism as a movement, began in the 1990s.


So the origin of "Maoism" is two dates, in the late 80's and early 90's? I'm pretty sure that it existed before then. In fact people were using the "Maoist" label before then, such as the Maoist Communist Centre in India, formed in 1975. The fundamental concepts that constituted Maoism existed way before the 90's. I honestly don't understand this point at all.

I believe that JMP meant to refer to 1982 and not 1988, which was the year that the Communist Party of Peru (PCP) coined the term "Marxism-Leninism-Maoism" (MLM) as a qualitative and universal development of Marxism-Leninism (i.e., developing Marxism in the fields of philosophy, political economy and scientific socialism.) Previous to this, the term "Mao Tse-tung Thought" had been in use as opposed to an "-ism". The date 1993 is referenced due to the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement (RIM) statement "Long Live Marxism-Leninism-Maoism!", which crystalized the theory and led its adoption in countries such as Afghanistan, India, Nepal and elsewhere.

Concerning the Maoist Communist Centre (MCC), I'm not sure as to when they renamed their organization that but in the early days they were called something like "Southern Lands" (China being "Northern Lands"). It's documents during the early days also did not talk about Maoism but "Mao Tse-tung Thought". Unfortunately, I do not have a citation and this comes totally from memory.

What's important, however, is that the PCP were the first to sum up MLM and its contents as a coherent ideology. I can think of a few organizations who called themselves Maoists before 1982 -- such as the RCP in Chile -- but none of them put it into practice as the PCP did by launching People's War in 1980.


My biggest grumble with Mao is how he kept ties with Pol Pot, the mass murderer who was a Communist in name only. Maoism is the opposite of Trotskyism in that it excludes the working class from the revolution, whereas Trotskyism excludes the peasants. Both are bad strategies for propelling a revolution.

Maybe the reason Maoism focuses on the peasants because they suffer the most under Capitalism. Nonetheless, I still think it's a mistake to leave the working class out. If anything, combining both groups strengthens the Revolution, so why leave one group out?

Mao repeatedly emphasized the leading role and advanced nature of the proletariat -- from the early days before he became Chairman to the Cultural Revolution -- as contrasted with what he considered to be the "main role" of the peasantry due to its vast numbers and rebellious nature (citing the countless outbreaks of mass, spontaneous violence against landlord rule.)

William Hinton summed up some of Mao's position towards the several interconnected limits and shortcomings of the peasantry as a revolutionary force, which he was far from being oblivious to. Some of the notable characteristics mentioned were their:

(1) exclusively military point of view -- disregarding the necessity of the army serving the masses, regarding fighting as it's only duty, disregarding civilian duties, etc;

(2) tendency towards "extreme democracy" and individualism -- often showing little discipline, and holding oneself responsible to individual leaders rather than the revolution as a whole;

(3) subjectivism -- narrowly holding onto ideas without examining concrete conditions and analyzing evidence;

(4) adventurism and military opportunism -- acting blindly regardless of conditions.

(William Hinton, Fanshen: A Documentary of Revolution in a Chinese Village pp. 56-57)


Maybe at the beginning of the people's republic's history, but by the end of Mao's life not at all. Under Mao, China went from a mostly feudal country to one of great industrial strength in the swiftest and grandest industrialization and proletarianization in history.Nevertheless, even though land reform, collectivization, and so forth, managed to rid China of its feudal remnants, the majority of China's population, even during its socialist period, were rural laborers/peasants and not proletarians.

Ismail
12th October 2012, 23:57
Maoists are primarily concerned with ideological purity and dismiss anyone who questions the established party line as a revisionist. They are not scientific socialists, and therefore not Marxists.That's a ridiculous reason to criticize Maoism, especially since Mao himself claimed he had overcome the "dogmatism" of Stalin, that he was "creatively" developing Marxism-Leninism, etc. Maoism is wrong precisely because it is a revisionist ideology which negates in practice the leading role of the proletariat in the revolution, because it largely follows the policies of Soviet revisionism in the economic field (Mao came out in praise for the Soviet revisionists' abolishing of machine-tractor stations, for example), because it promotes an opportunistic line in foreign affairs (the "Three Worlds Theory"), and because (and this is where the Maoism of the Shining Path and Co. comes in) they view the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" as the greatest advance the international communist movement has ever seen and that every country must undergo a similar process.

Its call for the "purity of Marxism-Leninism" was not much less bogus than the Soviet revisionist critiques of opposing revisionisms.