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ind_com
27th September 2012, 20:30
Please Stop Talking About "True Communism" (http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.in/2012/07/please-stop-talking-about-true-communism.html)

If you're one of those marxists who defends communism by arguing that the "true communism" promised by Marx and Engels has never yet existed, then please stop. This is not a very good argument for communism because this is precisely what liberals argue in order to claim "communism is good in theory and bad in practice." Indeed, they use the fact that "true communism" has never existed as proof that it cannot exist because it is little more than a utopian doctrine. ("That Marx meant well," the liberal anti-communist will argue, chortling slyly, "It's just too bad he was proved wrong by those horrible communist revolutions of the twentieth century!") Thus, if you're making some sort of idealist argument about true communism––as if communism is a Platonic form in which the material world has not yet learned to participate––then all you're doing is telling the liberal anti-communist that s/he's correct.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-94F6LS_0G-8/UBIAlTv0m5I/AAAAAAAAAvM/7wJZKvNInZE/s320/karl-marx-peace-sign-2.jpeg

Utopian Marx: "Where is my true communism? Peace out."

One of the key contributions made by Marx and Engels was not a theory of "pure communism" but the theory of revolutionary science. Utopian fleshed-out descriptions of some "true communism" are hard to find in the work of Marx and Engels; when they spoke of communism they were intentionally vague, indicating only that it was a classless society where humanity had passed from the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom. They did not precisely think it was inevitable since it needed to be actively established through revolution, a messy business that could always fail, and that this was necessary for human progress.


What they did speak more about, however, was establishing socialism, the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat, which could possibly be the motor that would allow for the liquidation of class divisions. They also spoke quite a lot about making concrete analyses of concrete situations, scientifically assessing historical junctures, the fact that every generation can only solve the problems it encounters… they had little patience for utopian pronouncements about communism. Indeed, because they were historical materialists and not utopian idealists their argument regarding communism was only about its necessity based on a scientific assessment of capitalism and the historical motion that produced capitalism.


All of this is to say, if you think of yourself as a marxist and are still talking about how the true beauty of communism has never been realized (and are perhaps saying this as a response to some criticism about actually existing communist regimes so as to "save communism" from their supposedly bad legacy) you might be a liberal. At the very least you're some sort of utopian idealist who isn't doing the hard work of historical materialism. Or maybe you're a lazy reader of Marx who thinks that Capital was really about describing the "perfect" communist system––which is to say, you haven't read Capital and you might even, to trick people into thinking you've read it, refer to this book by its German title so as to sound knowledgeable.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EC9YbtcTCyA/UBH_UUZhy6I/AAAAAAAAAvE/V6_EQ-u9Axo/s320/tumblr_m7hrnesBbw1rbj6m8o1_400.jpeg

"Ah yes, but have you read Das Kapital where Marx describes his theory of communism?"

Whatever the case: please stop using this argument to "defend" communism––it isn't helping. You're just making the liberal anti-communists happy by making their arguments for them and calling it communist. After you make these arguments, they can go home and chuckle to themselves at how obviously out to lunch those whacky communists are because they keep talking about some utopian communism and calling it "scientific" when they can't seem to understand the empirical method. Even worse: when you make this argument in front of people who might otherwise be open to politicization––and who know viscerally that capitalism needs to go––you end up offering them little more than quasi-religious mystification.

Look: Marx would in some ways agree that "true communism" has never existed because he believed that communism was classless and thus lacked a state, which can only exist in class-based societies. Thus, it is quite true that communism has not actually existed because communist governments, by virtue of being governments, have presided over states. But this is a rather banal point because, really, even Lenin and Mao would agree with you here; both of them understood that they were building socialism, the dictatorship of the proletariat, that might possibly birth communism when the class struggle under socialism was won. Marx and Engels also spoke of this socialist transition––it was towards this transition, though in a more nebulous manner than the actually existing socialisms of the twentieth century, that their manifesto was aimed.

All of this is to say that communists need to stop talking about the failure of "communist states" to be "truly communist" because these states were only ever trying to build communism through the period of socialism––a historical necessity that could always lead to failure because it is still a period of class struggle. They need to stop denouncing these actually existing socialisms as failing to be "properly communist" because concrete struggle in the concrete world is not a dinner party or an abstract philosophical argument; it is a messy business about overthrowing the ruling class and building a classless society. And a classless society, as all of these revolutionary communists understood, is not something that will emerge one beautiful day when we all learn to be utopians and participate in the ideal form of Communism. This is a process that is fraught with confusion, struggle, setbacks, and failures from which we need to learn.

We will learn nothing about getting closer to our "true communism" if we keep speaking of this communism as if it is divorced from time and space. If Marx and Engels' key contribution was their scientific method, then we need to use it honestly engage with the world historical revolutions that produced examples of actually existing socialism––communist movements devoted to building communism––and, rather than disavow them, celebrate their history-shaking successes while at the same time scientifically critiquing and learning from their actual failures. When we denounce these moments because they were not "true communism" we denounce a revolutionary understanding of communism because we are saying that every actual attempt to build communism was garbage because it wasn't pure. History, however, is not abstractly pure because it is made by (just as it makes) humans producing and struggling in given socio-historical contexts and human production/struggle is not the same as a concise and abstract mathematical equation. To be sure, there are universal insights about the motion of human history; the particular articulations of these universals, however, are always messy.

This "true communism" business needs to stop. The fact that I can look "communism" up in a bourgeois highschool textbook [as I did the other day] and read, amidst claims about totalitarianism and anti-democracy, that "no true communist system has ever existed" means that I should not have to hear the same anti-communist bullshit reproduced by self-proclaimed communists whose understanding of history is the same as a highschool textbook that hasn't changed its position since the beginning of the cold war. (As an aside: it was also funny that a highschool teacher argued the same thing about communism to one of my comrades a couple days before we found the textbook he was using to teach his students. Yet again: the educators need to be educated.) So stop making the arguments your liberal contemporaries are making, fellow communists, stop fetishizing a true communism and instead follow the lead of Marx and Engels and critically engage with the world historical communist movements. Maybe then we can stop confusing people who might be interested in communism in the first place.

http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.in/2012/07/please-stop-talking-about-true-communism.html

Vladimir Innit Lenin
27th September 2012, 21:38
This argument is flawed by its own ideology.

Pandering to liberal anti-communists doesn't matter, at the end of the day Socialism will be won by the working class, not by liberal ideologues and possibly not even by the existing left (in fact probably not!). Whether or not 'we' pander to liberals doesn't really matter.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
27th September 2012, 21:39
But anyway, there's nothing utopian about saying communism has never existed.

Marx, Engels and many others have been very clear about what communism is: a classless, stateless, moneyless society. Has that existed hitherto, since the advent of capitalism? No.

Flying Purple People Eater
27th September 2012, 22:01
Communism: A stateless, classless society which is centered primarily around the abolishment of private property and, subsequently, common ownership of the means of production.

Show me one instance in which that has ever existed, and I'll take what you say to heart.

Just because It's used as a leeway for attack by anti-communists, doesn't make the fact incorrect. You're sounding terribly moralistic.

Blake's Baby
27th September 2012, 23:30
If you are one of those marxists that believes that 'actually existing socialism' has anything to do with communism, then please stop, you're just helping the bourgeoisie in its campaigns about the failure of communism.

If you're one of those marxists that believes that the dictatorship of the proletariat is what Marx called socialism, please read some Marx and educate yourself.

Comrades Unite!
27th September 2012, 23:32
I believe the original poster is talking about how people like to say that the People's Republic of China, The Soviet Union(1922-1953) and other assorted Socialistic countries are consistently being decried as non-socialistic and 'false' socialism.

By which I completely agree with the OP, Of course Communism has never existed because of a number of factors( such as revisionism,bureaucracy and the like) but when people speak of the PRC or the USSR as not being Socialistic then it is us who look lazy and making excuses.

Psy
27th September 2012, 23:33
A good way to view it is that revolutions have never achieved a escape velocity to escape the pull of the capitalist world, this is not Utopian any more then achieving escape velocity of Earth's gravity is Utopian, you just need more thrust or in the case of revolution more worker militancy to propel the workers away from bourgeoisie class relations.

In short the USSR failed to distance itself enough from capitalism thus was bound to the same law of value

Jimmie Higgins
28th September 2012, 00:33
Lack of "perfection" or "non-idealness" simply is not the issue. The Russian Revolution and the Paris Commune were not ideal (even excluding factors that may have contributed to their inability to maintain worker's power). The problem with the systems eventually developed and utilized by the USSR or China wasn't that they didn't work - it's that they worked reasonably well at being something other that a society directly and collectively run by workers.

cynicles
28th September 2012, 00:36
The more I read about Maoism the more it comes off as a prolier-than-thou marxist equivalents of Insurrectionary Manarchism. Why the hell would anyone care what liberals think? Some of us are genuinely anally retentive about the meaning and use of these words. I like solid base to start a discussion from that doesn't involve 500 different definitions of 'communism' or 'socialism' flying around in 10 different people's heads. And quite frankly this article sounds more like it's trying counter any criticisms of the dear leaders strategy then make a serious argument about it being to use the phrase 'true communism'. Saying neither of those regimes were communist doesn't mean you're a liberal, it just means you have to explain yourself and justify your position. The author seems to be essentially arguing with a strawman, the only people on the left that I've seen doing what he's complaining about are reformist socialists.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages
28th September 2012, 02:16
It's almost like I can feel his look of smug satisfaction peering back at me with that zinger about das kapital. But then in the 6th paragraph he admits that the ussr and prc did not, in fact, resemble communism. So what he fuck is the point of this article?

Marxaveli
28th September 2012, 03:32
The OP fails, because it relies affirmation of the consequent fallacies (and appeal to nature fallacies possibly, a high school text book called the USSR a Communist society so it must be true) that TRIES to implement a "No True Scotsman" argument against Communism or Communists. But a No True Scotsman argument is not valid if the original context of something does not exist or is contradicted - which is the case here.

As other posters have already noted, Marx (and plenty of Marxists who followed after him) did IN FACT make it very clear as to what constitutes a Communist organization of society: classless, stateless, moneyless, and of course, Internationalist. If even ONE of these attributes fails to exist, it isn't Communist. The OP is trying to put forth a false dichotomy of "true communism" and "false/perverted communism", when there is no such thing and to believe so is completely Idealistic. There is just simply Communism, as described by Marx, Engels, and other prominent Communists, and such a system, as described, has never existed in modern civil society. Period. The USSR was never Communist. China is not, and never was Communist. Cuba is not, and never was, Communist. The same goes for Cambodia, N. Korea and Vietnam. /thread.

RebelDog
28th September 2012, 07:45
Socialism has at its core the concept of workers self-management. That is the essential component of a classless, stateless society. It is also the first thing the Bolsheviks saught to destroy.

Yazman
28th September 2012, 09:51
MODERATOR ACTION:


Shut up, Meg.

Please don't make posts like this. They constitute spam and aren't allowed. Do it again and I'm infracting you.

This constitutes a warning to AkaTheRed for spam.

p.s. I'm moving this thread to Learning since that's where it really belongs.

Blake's Baby
28th September 2012, 11:37
I believe the original poster is talking about how people like to say that the People's Republic of China, The Soviet Union(1922-1953) and other assorted Socialistic countries are consistently being decried as non-socialistic and 'false' socialism.

By which I completely agree with the OP, Of course Communism has never existed because of a number of factors( such as revisionism,bureaucracy and the like) but when people speak of the PRC or the USSR as not being Socialistic then it is us who look lazy and making excuses.

But we - that is 'people' - think that you - that is, Stalinists - are lazy and making excuses. Furthermore, we think you're part of the problem and not the solution. 'Revisionism' and 'bureacracy' have nothing to do with it. Socialism is impossible in one country, without a successful world revolution socialism is impossible; what the Soviet Union and PRC are and were is a brutal and inefficient form of capitalism. So as long as you and your co-thinkers continue to say 'socialism - it's like regular capitalism, just not as good' we'll continue to argue with you. Because you're wrong.

Permanent Revolutionary
28th September 2012, 12:09
Actually, I won't stop talking about "true communism" as it is a real concept, and has never existed, ever. This is the truth of the matter, period.

PS: When did the Politics board become a place for personal blogs?

Marxaveli
28th September 2012, 16:40
Actually, I won't stop talking about "true communism" as it is a real concept, and has never existed, ever. This is the truth of the matter, period.



There is no truth to it, it is pure Idealism.

Just like there is no such thing a "crony" or "good" Capitalism. Capitalism is Capitalism (whether its State-ran Capitalism like in the USSR under Stalin, or the free-market type we have in the USA), Communism is Communism - they are material conditions of society that organically result from prior modes of production collapsing - they are not some idea that came from some persons head and systematically put into place based on these visions. It just so happens we have not yet reached the Communist organization of society yet, and it will be a long while before we do, but the whole dichotomy of "true" communism and "bad" communism is a bourgeoise construct and needs to be put to rest.

ind_com
28th September 2012, 19:37
I believe the original poster is talking about how people like to say that the People's Republic of China, The Soviet Union(1922-1953) and other assorted Socialistic countries are consistently being decried as non-socialistic and 'false' socialism.

By which I completely agree with the OP, Of course Communism has never existed because of a number of factors( such as revisionism,bureaucracy and the like) but when people speak of the PRC or the USSR as not being Socialistic then it is us who look lazy and making excuses.

The piece is by a Maoist, and he is taking the standard Maoist line on those who principally oppose the socialist USSR and PRC for various reasons. In general, the 'true communism' argument is a part of a leftism-clad liberal package for denouncing both the historical achievements of socialism as well as the ongoing revolutions. The proponents of this reactionary line always come to identical or very similar conclusions as capitalist critiques of communist regimes and groups, and even use ridiculous bourgeois works to support their positions. Their only excuse for not being able to embed themselves in any instance of class war is usually the phrase 'the working class liberates itself'; a dreamy vision of a magical, spontaneous, and worldwide revolution.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
28th September 2012, 21:47
The piece is by a Maoist, and he is taking the standard Maoist line on those who principally oppose the socialist USSR and PRC for various reasons. In general, the 'true communism' argument is a part of a leftism-clad liberal package for denouncing both the historical achievements of socialism as well as the ongoing revolutions. The proponents of this reactionary line always come to identical or very similar conclusions as capitalist critiques of communist regimes and groups, and even use ridiculous bourgeois works to support their positions. Their only excuse for not being able to embed themselves in any instance of class war is usually the phrase 'the working class liberates itself'; a dreamy vision of a magical, spontaneous, and worldwide revolution.

So much fail in this post I don't even know where to begin.

1. 'True communism' - the principle that 'communism' is as Marx said: a stateless, classless and moneyless society - is not left-liberalism, it is Marxism, from the horse's mouth himself.

2. Marxism is not reactionary.

3. I don't see how we Marxists tend to agree with capitalists about 'communist regimes',
a) because there has never existed communism - the history of all hitherto has been the history of class struggle [never a truer word spoken], and communism is a classless society, so tell me how communism can possibly have existed!
b) it's pretty rich of some Maoist/Stalinoid to criticise us for agreeing with our enemies about some aspects of the brutal dictatorships that were/are the USSR/PRC/GDR etc. You the people who have used the 'enemy of my enemy' 'logic' so many times over the years to justify some horrendous religionism, third-worldism and anti-worker crap.

4. What have you ever done for the class struggle? By you, I mean Maoists collectively. Where's 'your' revolution? Is Hu Jintao silently leading you to victory or something? Or perhaps the latest King of the Kim dynasty will show us true communist opposition to yankee spirit, right?

Maoism openly believes in the revolutionary value of the peasantry, the same peasantry that Marx credits with bringing about the beginnings of capitalism, once they were un-tied from their demesne bondage.

I'm doing my dissertation on this exact subject, and i'd fucking love to add a line in at the end - if my research proves my hypothesis - just saying 'told you so, you reactionary maoist fucks'.

Not being funny, but it really is laughable for some little Maoist to call all others on the left 'liberals' and 'reactionaries' - it's like some inverse proportionality, where the worse the words you throw at us, the less insulting they become and really, the more pathetic, irrelevant and childish you appear to all of us of sane mind.

Next.

Ravachol
28th September 2012, 21:52
Communism as a mode of production covered the larger part of human existence... Communism as a 'real movement that abolishes the present state of things' rears its head time and again, so there's that.

ind_com
29th September 2012, 00:29
So much fail in this post I don't even know where to begin. There is no need for you to be that much butt-hurt, specially since I am taking the pain to reply to your ridiculous post. In fact, I will continue replying to your posts until they get too long or branched to be worth replying to.


1. 'True communism' - the principle that 'communism' is as Marx said: a stateless, classless and moneyless society - is not left-liberalism, it is Marxism, from the horse's mouth himself.

Agreed.


2. Marxism is not reactionary. Actually some aspects of it are, if you consider it as a static set of theories which only Marx and Engels constructed. However, if you consider Marxism as a dynamic science, then I agree with you.


3. I don't see how we Marxists tend to agree with capitalists about 'communist regimes',
a) because there has never existed communism - the history of all hitherto has been the history of class struggle [never a truer word spoken], and communism is a classless society, so tell me how communism can possibly have existed!


Please read the article once again. You are claiming something very fundamental which the author does not disagree with.


b) it's pretty rich of some Maoist/Stalinoid to criticise us for agreeing with our enemies about some aspects of the brutal dictatorships that were/are the USSR/PRC/GDR etc. You the people who have used the 'enemy of my enemy' 'logic' so many times over the years to justify some horrendous religionism, third-worldism and anti-worker crap.

The above illustrates an example of leftism-clad liberal attack on communist practice.


4. What have you ever done for the class struggle? By you, I mean Maoists collectively.

(Disclaimer to GOI, I am not a Maoist.)


Where's 'your' revolution? Is Hu Jintao silently leading you to victory or something? Or perhaps the latest King of the Kim dynasty will show us true communist opposition to yankee spirit, right?

Look, it is obvious that your nationalist sentiment is hurt because there are rival capitalist powers in the east now, but please take care to learn at least about the fundamentals of Maoism so that you stop sounding like a complete idiot. At least take care to read fully the next piece by JMP that I post. It will be on Maoism.


Maoism openly believes in the revolutionary value of the peasantry, the same peasantry that Marx credits with bringing about the beginnings of capitalism, once they were un-tied from their demesne bondage.

Maoists do not consider Marxism or MLM to be a static, religious theory. Something is not true just because Marx, or even Mao, said it.


I'm doing my dissertation on this exact subject, and i'd fucking love to add a line in at the end - if my research proves my hypothesis -

I suggest that you actually study a bit and rewrite your dissertation in case you don't want to end up with something like the Black Book of Communism.


just saying 'told you so, you reactionary maoist fucks'.

First get your head out of your ass.


Not being funny, but it really is laughable for some little Maoist to call all others on the left 'liberals' and 'reactionaries' - it's like some inverse proportionality, where the worse the words you throw at us, the less insulting they become and really, the more pathetic, irrelevant and childish you appear to all of us of sane mind.

Next.
Do you think that a word is 'worse' than others if you feel less insulted by it? Anyways, my intention was not at all to insult you and make you reply so emotionally, even bringing up your dissertation etc. I just wish that you get out of your shell of dogma.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
29th September 2012, 06:50
I wasn't replying emotionally, I think the word is 'incredulous'. Trust me, I don't really get annoyed by internet trolls, least of all those who use words like 'butthurt', or those who call left-wing communists such as myself 'nationalists' - betrays your ignorance really.

If you want to have a productive discussion, then by all means let's go, but if your aim is to just post flamebaiting, sectarian articles and then stick to some Maoist dogma instead of engaging in argument/debate, then i've nothing left to say to you.

Yazman
29th September 2012, 10:22
Moderator post:

ind_com, I know it might be frustrating sometimes, but please try to avoid posting provocative stuff like "get your head out of your ass". Even stuff like that can lead to flames or can be perceived as flamebaiting, please try not to do it.

This post is not a warning, but make sure to keep the discussion civil and on track.

ind_com
29th September 2012, 10:39
Moderator post:

ind_com, I know it might be frustrating sometimes, but please try to avoid posting provocative stuff like "get your head out of your ass". Even stuff like that can lead to flames or can be perceived as flamebaiting, please try to do it.

This post is not a warning, but make sure to keep the discussion civil and on track.

I understand.

ind_com
29th September 2012, 10:41
I wasn't replying emotionally, I think the word is 'incredulous'. Trust me, I don't really get annoyed by internet trolls, least of all those who use words like 'butthurt', or those who call left-wing communists such as myself 'nationalists' - betrays your ignorance really.

If you want to have a productive discussion, then by all means let's go, but if your aim is to just post flamebaiting, sectarian articles and then stick to some Maoist dogma instead of engaging in argument/debate, then i've nothing left to say to you.

I am ready to engage in a productive discussion if you are willing. Your problem is that you don't know anything about Maoism, though you wish to attack it. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned Hu Jintao or the Kims. Where would you like to discuss? Here or via private messages?