Berlin Wall

[Apostolo]

Hi there!

I would like to ask what communists think about the berlin wall, why was it built? What was the significance of this action? Did other powers such as usa forced Nikita and the GDR to built it?

Is it reality that many citizens left the country until the rise of the wall ? Why people wanted to leave? Is it reality that citizens were shot while they were trying to leave?

Wherever we look for, we will see only the one side, the side of the capitalists, that is why i ask you, because i want to hear the other side.

[Prometeo liberado]

Eric Honeker had the wall built so he could have mirrors placed on the inside. This way he could admire his fine suits, fine ass suits!

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I would like to ask what communists think about the berlin wall, why was it built? What was the significance of this action? Did other powers such as usa forced Nikita and the GDR to built it?

This is a decent article on the subject by author William Blum. http://consortiumnews.com/2011/07/28/the-other-side-of-the-berlin-wall/

[Apostolo]

Nice, i read that today, that's why i asked. I can tell that this article seems to be true. I believe that there was and the other side. Not the only one which the capitalists present. Furthermore, it's not by accident that the majority of East Germans say that they lived better under communism according to Spiegel.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Some people were shot/killed trying to get over the Berlin Wall, yes.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I thought I would make a more detailed response than my last one that just linked to an article.


I would like to ask what communists think about the berlin wall, why was it built?

It was built for a number of reasons. Blum mentions a few of the reasons. West Germany had a massive recruitment campaign to take trained workers and professionals from the East. Another reason was because of sabotage campaigns originating in the West. Lastly, the East thought that it had made a "workers' paradise" so when some of these workers wanted to live in the west it was embarrassing. The same type of thing was done in the early years of the United States when individuals would go and live with Native Americans on their territory rather than live in the United States. The authorities would track them down and bring them back.


What was the significance of this action?

Well, it is a big moment in history...


Did other powers such as usa forced Nikita and the GDR to built it?

Discussed this above.


Is it reality that many citizens left the country until the rise of the wall ?

Yes.


Why people wanted to leave?

Various reasons. For professionals and skilled workers, there was a massive recruitment campaign in the west to get them to leave the east by offering various benefits. Some faced political repression. Etc.


Is it reality that citizens were shot while they were trying to leave?

Yes

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

It was built during the crisis 1961 in August. Relations became worse and worse, and after the Bay of Pigs invasion, there was information that Kennedy asked McNamara to draw up another plan for its invasion. In the now public document, McNamara asks on behalf of Kennedy's orders how many soldiers are stationed in Berlin, so they were building up forces and with the history that the USSR made that seemed very very dangerous. The relations overall deteriorated, propaganda was incredibly strong against the USSR, West Germany got its own army in the late 50's, the west was not cooperating and playing superficial propaganda diplomatics that were new at the time, NATO was formed and there were millions of soldiers stationed in Berlin ready to go at each other. I don't know if it is true that East Germany wanted to cage in its citizens because of economic immigration, if this would have really been the goal they could have done it a lot less demonstrative through bureaucratic and conventional border means. Ulbrecht giving the order to building the "Antifaschsit wall" was done in my opinion out of sincere fear of the fascists in the BRD. West Germany was not a democracy at the time, they used torture all the way until the RAF confronted and exposed it.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There are various explanations presented.

"It was built to stop brain drain to neighbouring Capitalist countries which had an unfair advantage in terms of development"

Fine, but you can't build Socialism in one country, and if you're already so far behind Capitalist neighbours and you're so isolated, it's really bogus to say that you're 'defending the revolution' until other countries go through revolution - that's an excuse for political opportunism, rather than a veritable reason for such an extreme measure.

"Why would someone want to leave Socialism for Capitalism, anyway?"

This is probably the worst reason to defend the wall. Regardless of your own subjective ideas on East Germany, West Germany etc., free migration is a fundamental pillar of Socialism. It is absolute hypocrisy to, in one instance, defend immigrants under Capitalism, and then in the other, to attack emigrants under 'Socialism'.

The Berlin Wall was really an horrendous decision by East Germany. You can understand - in the context of political dictatorship - why it was necessary, as regimes in general are toppled by general strike/protests due to economic factors, or due to political pressure (a la 1989/91) that is again due to economic factors, stagnation etc. Thus, for the ruling caste in East Germany, preventing further brain drain was certainly a key pillar of retaining political power and appeasing the East German working class, but let's not beat around the bush here - this wall encircled workers, restricted their movement for decades, and resulted in the deaths of what, around 100 working class East Germans.

Never again, never again.

[Raskolnikov]

William Blum (found in "Killing Hope") goes on to say the Berlin Wall was basically a way to try and prevent CIA operatives from actually going into the GDR, which was a major problem at the time that both the GDR and USSR complained about in the UN. Of course this fell on deaf ears and most of the time the agents could simply go back in and out without much trouble.

This is how I view it, it was mostly a way to actually prevent a real danger to the GDR (and seeing how the CIA's actions within west Germany, preparing to execute well over 100 persons identified as 'weak' or 'communist-sympathizing' that would become a liability in the face of a Soviet-Invasion. This included (as I recall) a social-democratic regional leader within West-Germany)

For reasons of leaving - ultimately West Germany had the best sex appeal in certain ways. Better lights, better wages (in terms of being a professional - you got paid more than your underassociates) and more diverse commodities. And ultimately - the allure was appealing. Many-times-over in Poland would workers strike not because they despised their regime, but because they desired the things the West had. It sounded great, inspiring to have this stuff. More money? More stuff to buy? Clearly a good deal with social-services and the like.

However the appeal is lost when Capitalism actually entered into Eastern Europe and proceeded to rape it dry of resources. That being a literal metaphor as when you see Eastern Europe now, it is surprising that some 30 to 40 years ago it was still in an economic-wise good position even after the 1970s fiasco.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Never again, never again.

Why are you equating the tragedies of the anti-brain drain Berlin Wall with the Holocaust by using that remembrance slogan? :confused:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why are you equating the tragedies of the anti-brain drain Berlin Wall with the Holocaust by using that remembrance slogan? :confused:

Sorry, I wasn't aware i'd infringed on the Holocaust's copyright of those two commonly used words from the English language.

Was that even a necessary question? I'm a Jewish communist, i'm quite aware of the implications of the holocaust thanks very much. :rolleyes:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not that the seriousness of the holocaust relative to the berlin wall lessens the objective wrong of the wall itself.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Actually, I'm also quite interested in this. My history is absolutely horrendous.

So what, there was just a big wall in the centre of town with a gate and patrols? Did people commonly just walk past it, or was it quarantined? Where you able to negotiate your way into the GDR?

[Krano]

Someone could make the argument that it was anti-fascist victory in keeping nationalists and fascists out,
but then again nationalism and fascism are on the rise in most of the former Eastern Bloc countries.

Actually, I'm also quite interested in this. My history is absolutely horrendous.

So what, there was just a big wall in the centre of town with a gate and patrols? Did people commonly just walk past it, or was it quarantined? Where you able to negotiate your way into the GDR?
OwQsTzGkbiY

[Igor]

Someone could make the argument that it was anti-fascist victory in keeping nationalists and fascists out

yeah fascists and nationalists just couldn't fucking wait to get their asses in DDR. they had to shoot fascists trying to get in all the time

[Krano]

yeah fascists and nationalists just couldn't fucking wait to get their asses in DDR. they had to shoot fascists trying to get in all the time
Parties like the NPD were created in West Germany.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Surely the Wall was a massive obscenity against East German workers; that lots of people wanted to immigrate west is just as surely a comment on the nature of life in the DDR for ordinary people.

I remember what our college German language Prof, Herr August Q, from Dortmund, once said about socialism, something to the effect that when West Germans looked at the DDR and the Wall, that greatly affected their view of "socialism."

A couple of decades ago, I think, I sat through a Spartacist forum on the rights of, IIRC, workers in South Africa, so I then asked them what their position on the Berlin Wall was. Predictably, the Sparts were big defenders of the Wall. Apparently, in the SL's Weltanschauung, the needs of the ultra-repressive East German bureaucracy outweighed the rights of rank and file German workers to live and work where they pleased.

Anyone who's seen the youtube video of the 40th (1989) Anniversary of the DDR celebrations, knows that the DDR was armed to the teeth, so it is difficult, IMHO, to defend the Wall as a security necessity. What the Wall was about was, in effect, reducing the rights of workers in the DDR to a vanishing point.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Someone could make the argument that it was anti-fascist victory in keeping nationalists and fascists out,
but then again nationalism and fascism are on the rise in most of the former Eastern Bloc countries.....

What impressed me after the 1989 demise of the DDR, "East Germany," was the number of young German ultra-rightists who came out of the woodwork in the territory of the former DDR. It was a phenomenon that astonished me.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Actually, I'm also quite interested in this. My history is absolutely horrendous.

So what, there was just a big wall in the centre of town with a gate and patrols? Did people commonly just walk past it, or was it quarantined? Where you able to negotiate your way into the GDR?

When I was a kid in school, what they told us was that, before the construction of the Wall, East Germans could simply leave the DDR by riding the subway out of "Democratic Germany" i.e., out of East Berlin. Obviously, that free movement between the two German states created big problems for the repressive bureaucracy that ran the DDR.

My favorite movie, The Lives of Others, which is marvelous, speaks to the nature of the DDR and its "anti-fascist" Wall. Every leftist should see that movie!

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Someone could make the argument that it was anti-fascist victory in keeping nationalists and fascists out,
but then again nationalism and fascism are on the rise in most of the former Eastern Bloc countries.

OwQsTzGkbiY

"It was a border that separated Germany into East and West, Communism and Democracy, repression and freedom. It's sole purpose, to keep the people of communist East Germany from fleeing to freedom in the Federal republic of Germany, the west.

Boy! That's some hardcore propaganda, fuck me! Talk about stating things simple for the peasants to understand, LOL.

The reality of course is that: East Germany spent less on its domestic police force per capita than West Germany; the East German opened Stasi records revealed a mere 174,000 informants in a country of over 16 Million, a large part of them SED members who were used as a source once and never kept in contact with; the incarceration rate was lower in East Germany than in the USA, especially in regards to ethnic minorities!; political freedom was arguably higher in East Germany than in West Germany as Communists and other radical leftists are per law banned from serving in public office and millions of people have reported of harassment by the West German secret police which even spies on politicians of Die Linke; the GDR had double the economic growth rates than West Germany; better average medical care; better average education levels; no homeless; no hunger; and a lot better feeling of solidarity among the people.

"Big. Bad. Evil. Wall." Very Orwellian...

[Crimson Commissar]

"It was a border that separated Germany into East and West, Communism and Democracy, repression and freedom. It's sole purpose, to keep the people of communist East Germany from fleeing to freedom in the Federal republic of Germany, the west.

Boy! That's some hardcore propaganda, fuck me! Talk about stating things simple for the peasants to understand, LOL.

The reality of course is that: East Germany spent less on its domestic police force per capita than West Germany; the East German opened Stasi records revealed a mere 174,000 informants in a country of over 16 Million, a large part of them SED members who were used as a source once and never kept in contact with; the incarceration rate was lower in East Germany than in the USA, especially in regards to ethnic minorities!; political freedom was arguably higher in East Germany than in West Germany as Communists and other radical leftists are per law banned from serving in public office and millions of people have reported of harassment by the West German secret police which even spies on politicians of Die Linke; the GDR had double the economic growth rates than West Germany; better average medical care; better average education levels; no homeless; no hunger; and a lot better feeling of solidarity among the people.

"Big. Bad. Evil. Wall." Very Orwellian...

I'll have to agree here.

There's not much to praise when it comes to the West German way of life, and as much as I recognise there are criticisms to make regarding the DDR I don't think it's very reasonable for someone who calls himself a Socialist to stand by the age-old claim of the West being some kind of idyllic, democratic paradise that everyone on the Eastern side of the country just couldn't wait to hop the border into.

The Berlin Wall, as grim and depressing as it was, was somewhat necessary at the time it was built in the 1960s. It's hard to say whether or not 20 years later there was still such a requirement for a massively heavily defended border between the two states, but in '61 the DDR was under heavy assault by capitalist propaganda and the aforementioned "brain drain" was depriving the country of the workers it needed to make Socialism run at an efficient standard. For this reason I think it was acceptable, though not preferable by any means, for the Wall to be constructed.

We also have to make the question of why the Wall was even able to exist in the first place. The entirety of Berlin lied deep within East German territory, was liberated by the Soviet Army at the end of World War 2, and the city itself was even the official capital of the DDR, whereas this was not the case for the FDR pre-unification. Essentially there was little reason for the Western half of Berlin to even be separated post-war anyway, and the occupation zones in the city should have ceased to exist after 1949 and the establishment of local government in Germany. West Berlin was ultimately an enclave of capitalist rule in the East that was maintained through the Western Allies'/NATO's stubbornness in the Cold War era, and it's rather sad in my opinion that they chose dividing the population of a historic city over allowing them to live in relative peace under Socialism.

[Krano]

"It was a border that separated Germany into East and West, Communism and Democracy, repression and freedom. It's sole purpose, to keep the people of communist East Germany from fleeing to freedom in the Federal republic of Germany, the west.

Boy! That's some hardcore propaganda, fuck me! Talk about stating things simple for the peasants to understand, LOL.

The reality of course is that: East Germany spent less on its domestic police force per capita than West Germany; the East German opened Stasi records revealed a mere 174,000 informants in a country of over 16 Million, a large part of them SED members who were used as a source once and never kept in contact with; the incarceration rate was lower in East Germany than in the USA, especially in regards to ethnic minorities!; political freedom was arguably higher in East Germany than in West Germany as Communists and other radical leftists are per law banned from serving in public office and millions of people have reported of harassment by the West German secret police which even spies on politicians of Die Linke; the GDR had double the economic growth rates than West Germany; better average medical care; better average education levels; no homeless; no hunger; and a lot better feeling of solidarity among the people.

"Big. Bad. Evil. Wall." Very Orwellian...
I only posted that video because it explained that it wasn't just a wall. I was confident that members here would spot the obvious propaganda and disregard it.