Communist Internet Propaganda

[Comrade #138672]

Since most people seem to spend more time on the internet than they do IRL, it might be a good idea to focus most of the propaganda on the internet. Don't you agree?

What kind of propaganda suits the internet? How to spread the message and where to do that? What about common mistakes?

What about using bots to spread Communist propaganda?

[MustCrushCapitalism]

No.

[Comrade Samuel]

No.

Why exactly is it a bad idea? It makes sense to spread the message where the people are doesn't it? Besides that it certainly seems more appropriate than bothering people with flyers and sitting around smoking weed all day.

[Prometeo liberado]

Since most people seem to spend more time on the internet than they do IRL

You may be over reaching a bit with this. I would agree that most people here spend more time on the internet but as for a working family, meh. You try balancing time with the kids, paying the bills, time with the spouse, taking care of the house, downing pints down at the bar and putting in 40-70 hours a week at the job. Not much time to follow the latest "Problem with International.." thread now is there?

[Urbandale]

'The people' you're trying to communicate to aren't on reddit and revleft all day, they're working or studying in the real world. Making a flood of commie image macros isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Why exactly is it a bad idea? It makes sense to spread the message where the people are doesn't it? Besides that it certainly seems more appropriate than bothering people with flyers and sitting around smoking weed all day.
The whole mentality of "let's bring about revolution by clicking like on facebook" is just harmful to the movement. The fact that most Marxist writings in existence are available online is the most it can really accomplish. Not to say it can't supplement having actual support on the street...

[Q]

There is currently a facebook group (http://www.facebook.com/socialistischeomroep.vereniging) that focuses to setup a socialist broadcasting organisation in the Netherlands. While for now they're focusing on getting 50 000 members so they can start an "prospective" broadcast in Dutch public broadcasting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Public_Broadcasting), it might very well end up as a web-broadcast. Which would be awesome I think, far better than having a formal "tv broadcast". We need more of that self-organisation.

[Rational Radical]

Internet users might find it creepy that there are ads and bots appearing on their screen with quote of Marx talking about dismantling capitalism, now that I think about it more,no offense,that's a terrible idea.The left needs to focus on organizing more and the internet can be used to suggest people anarchist/marxist/socialist writings but that's it. Consciousness depends primarily on the class struggle, material conditions and the revolutionary left's ability to connect with the average worker.

[Ostrinski]

It sounds like a good idea but we'd probably end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

The internet is a dark, dark place. We'd probably end up as the butt of memes or jokes or something.

[Arlekino]

The is good propaganda on Krasnoe TV, is available in English, Russian, Hebrew.
http://red-tv.info/

[Prometeo liberado]

Let's not ignore the fact that we desperately do need to try and impact the information playing field though. Hanging out at campuses and trying to foist our crappy newspapers on folks just hasn't worked, regardless of the hard work put in. I just feel that it should be done on a more neighborhood based, face to face basis. Community centers, worker outsourcing centers, community sponsored daycares an such. Real people connecting with real people.

[The Idler]

Kinda reminds me of a few topics in the last few weeks
Lets make some plans to further Action. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174329)
and
Outreach and Communication (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174335)

[Comrade Samuel]

The whole mentality of "let's bring about revolution by clicking like on facebook" is just harmful to the movement. The fact that most Marxist writings in existence are available online is the most it can really accomplish. Not to say it can't supplement having actual support on the street...

I'm by no means saying that clicking like on Facebook can supplement actual action but that there are alot of workers who spend a good bit of time on the internet who know nothing about Marxism and that perhaps instead of staying cooped up in our own small community or worse yet bothering people in real life with condescending, lame and out-dated flyers we could just attempt to reach the working class through a medium they actualy give two shits about.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

everyone i know is on facebook. the deny the capacity for the internet to be an arena for propaganda is to deny the fact that it already is exactly that - name a politician/political party/pressure group/think tank that doesn't propagate on the internet.

many people get their news online and their politics as a result. the fact that the left hasn't recognized this new technology, which has revolutionized social relations, just shows how backwards the left is. i can talk to someone in china in seconds and i can get a world of sources for news too, which wasn't a reality a few decades ago. let's also consider that the internet represents the democratization of information (wikileaks etc).

the internet represents mass-communication, this is a social environment and the first point of communism is society and social relations.

selling papers is an outdated, unsuccessful tactic. nearly everyone has an online presence now - everyone i know that works is a friend of mine on facebook. what a shame, that so-called socialists can't recognize the internet as a large social space! The internet is revolutionary technology - its time for commies to recognize technological advances and make use of them.

to be fair, leftists outside of revleft do make use of the internet to propagate. my newsfeed on facebook tells me things that i'd never read in the socialist worker - i have political friends from all around the world on there. i think i've made the point, its hard to be clear when you're totally doped up lol

[Blake's Baby]

... nearly everyone has an online presence now - everyone i know that works is a friend of mine on facebook. what a shame, that so-called socialists can't recognize the internet as a large social space! The internet is revolutionary technology - its time for commies to recognize technological advances and make use of them...

I think you're overegging the case here. Not 'nearly everyone', just 'a lot of people'. Probably not even 'nearly everyone' in the west/those bits of the old east that are more industrially developed. Certainly not 'nearly everyone' in South Asia, South America, Africa, East Asia...

In terms of world population, how many peole have net access? I'd say much much less than half. 20% maybe.

According to here http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm it's 2.25 billion (about 33%) and according to here http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_in_the_world_have_internet_access - it's 1.5 billion (about 20%).

Either way that's a lot less than 'nearly everyone'.

But I agree, the internet is a hugely important tool that we need to get better at using.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It is a great tool, but I think it is not a replacement for one-on-one organizing. Really I think the analogy to current technology is not internet vs. street propaganda, but internet vs. postering, pamphlets, and other kinds of passive propagandizing.

While we can try and spread our ideas on the internet, I think we can not "win" in a world of only ideas. We can use Facebook but so can every liberal, conservative and fascist. Also so can our governments and so for every blog we make they can out gun us many times over and our voices just become lost in a sea of misinformation and self-serving myths of the system.

[Comrade #138672]

The whole mentality of "let's bring about revolution by clicking like on facebook" is just harmful to the movement. The fact that most Marxist writings in existence are available online is the most it can really accomplish. Not to say it can't supplement having actual support on the street...I do not agree with that mentality either, but internet propaganda can be so much more. It could aid a revolution, but it would never bring about a revolution on its own.


There is currently a facebook group (http://www.facebook.com/socialistischeomroep.vereniging) that focuses to setup a socialist broadcasting organisation in the Netherlands. While for now they're focusing on getting 50 000 members so they can start an "prospective" broadcast in Dutch public broadcasting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Public_Broadcasting), it might very well end up as a web-broadcast. Which would be awesome I think, far better than having a formal "tv broadcast". We need more of that self-organisation.I'm unable to view the page atm.


Internet users might find it creepy that there are ads and bots appearing on their screen with quote of Marx talking about dismantling capitalism, now that I think about it more,no offense,that's a terrible idea.The left needs to focus on organizing more and the internet can be used to suggest people anarchist/marxist/socialist writings but that's it. Consciousness depends primarily on the class struggle, material conditions and the revolutionary left's ability to connect with the average worker.Shouldn't they be used to it by now?


It sounds like a good idea but we'd probably end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

The internet is a dark, dark place.I agree that there are dark places on the internet (4chan for example), but I don't think that the whole internet is so dark as it may seem.


We'd probably end up as the butt of memes or jokes or something.We already have, but so what?
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/IT_87cf13_364608.jpg
Nothing escapes being ridiculed.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I think it should be done, but it needs to be done tastefully. Whenever I see those ads that say things like "Stop Obama before it's too late" or "Ron Paul is our only hope" all I can think is "lol these people are lame".

I actually saw a banner ad once that had some sort of 3D rendering of a guy with a hammer sickle shirt and a Castro hat that said "President Obama, your people would like to have a word with you." My first thought was "sweet a pro communist ad" but my second thought was "This is corny as fuck".

Maybe we should avoid banner ads altogether.

[Igor]

Since most people seem to spend more time on the internet than they do IRL

Maybe in your social circle yeah or possibly even most of the active posters here but this is pretty much flat out wrong: nowhere most people use internet that much, not even most teenagers/twenty somethings

Also communism already is kinda overrepresented in the internet over actual world where actual things happen, so I wouldn't worry about the shit in any case.

[Ocean Seal]

It doesn't hurt, unless you are Maoist Third Worldist.

[Delenda Carthago]

Internet is a tool and nothing more. The real struggle is in the working places and in the neibourghoods.

[Decommissioner]

I don't see why the immediate rejection of internet propaganda. More propaganda on the internet is actually a pretty big no brainer.

I see talks of the importance of one-on-one organizing as a superior model, and that the working class does not have an online presence. I think both of these are false. I am willing to say, without data and purely out of personal experience, that most people in the western world have an online presence, if not at least use the internet for important reasons once a day on average. (check email, see what loved ones are up to etc). I don't know a single person that honestly just doesn't use the internet unless they have some sort of anti internet agenda or trying to make a point.

I feel one-on-one organizing is important, yes, but we are not there yet. The point of propaganda is to spread ideas and and make your idea normal and right. If there was more socialist propaganda on the internet, yes a lot of people would react negatively, but a lot of people who didn't have an opinion one way or another would suddenly see the idea of being a socialist can be a normal thing.

That is where one-on-one organizing fails without sufficient propaganda the reinforce it. You go up to any working class person and start spouting political, socialist jargon they're going to look at you like a loon. They would ask "socialism? What kind of weirdo concerns themselves with such a random, insignificant thing? and why are they trying to sell it to me? If all socialists act this fanatical and anti-social than I want no part." But if you have propaganda, not just on the internet but everywhere, concepts of socialism, and more importantly the concept that there are socialists and that it is normal to be a socialist (even if you disagree with socialism) will be in the public conscious, making it to where having a one-on-one with someone about socialism wont make you look crazy.

The concept that most (working) people aren't on the internet is a baffling one. If that were the case there would be no internet! There are not enough bourgeois people in the world to make communities like reddit possible, or networks like facebook to feel populated. There would hardly be any videos uploaded to youtube.

[Urbandale]

No one said working people aren't ever on the internet, the question is whether they're on it enough to catch whatever propaganda the org is going to be producing.

You don't organize workplaces by spouting off socialist jargon unless the workers already know a lot about socialism, which is pretty unlikely, at least in the US. Also, no one is saying that no propaganda should be created, which is what your last full paragraph seems to be addressing. The only specific propaganda that people have said anything against in this thread is that of the internet variety.

By the way, what exactly did you have in mind here? More Stalin-cat or other macros? Banner ads?

[Blake's Baby]

I don't see why the immediate rejection of internet propaganda. More propaganda on the internet is actually a pretty big no brainer...

Not sure anyone has actually rejected propaganda on the net, but hey ho.


...I see talks of the importance of one-on-one organizing as a superior model, and that the working class does not have an online presence. I think both of these are false. I am willing to say, without data and purely out of personal experience, that most people in the western world have an online presence, if not at least use the internet for important reasons once a day on average. (check email, see what loved ones are up to etc). I don't know a single person that honestly just doesn't use the internet unless they have some sort of anti internet agenda or trying to make a point...

The world isn't the same as some the western world. The population of the US is only 300 million. That's about 1 in 20 of the world's population.


...I feel one-on-one organizing is important, yes, but we are not there yet. The point of propaganda is to spread ideas and and make your idea normal and right. If there was more socialist propaganda on the internet, yes a lot of people would react negatively, but a lot of people who didn't have an opinion one way or another would suddenly see the idea of being a socialist can be a normal thing.

That is where one-on-one organizing fails without sufficient propaganda the reinforce it. You go up to any working class person and start spouting political, socialist jargon they're going to look at you like a loon. They would ask "socialism? What kind of weirdo concerns themselves with such a random, insignificant thing? and why are they trying to sell it to me? If all socialists act this fanatical and anti-social than I want no part." But if you have propaganda, not just on the internet but everywhere, concepts of socialism, and more importantly the concept that there are socialists and that it is normal to be a socialist (even if you disagree with socialism) will be in the public conscious, making it to where having a one-on-one with someone about socialism wont make you look crazy...

I think you're probably generalising your own experience from the US. In much of the rest of the world, socialism doesn't have the same stigma as in the US.


...The concept that most (working) people aren't on the internet is a baffling one. If that were the case there would be no internet! There are not enough bourgeois people in the world to make communities like reddit possible, or networks like facebook to feel populated. There would hardly be any videos uploaded to youtube.

800 million active facebook users into 7 billion people means 6.2 billion people (88.5% of world population, and that doesn't seperate out people who have more than one facebook profile) are not active facebook users. Most working people in the world are not (regularly) on the internet. Deal with it.

[MarxSchmarx]

Why does this keep getting treated as an either-or proposition?

We should have a propaganda presence online, we should have a propaganda presence in the street, we should have a propaganda presence everywhere.

There are a small number of significant places where the serious left will never realistically have a presence of note - for the time being, the major television channels in the global north, for instance. But wherever there is an opening, the left would be foolish not to take its propaganda value seriously. We do not have the luxury of sneering at opportunities for advocacy. The capitalists understand this. This is why places like google are a marketing company, not a software company. Their enormous power is testament to how much of the wealth we create for them the capitalists are throwing at online propaganda.