Communism turned to Capitalism

[Philosophos]

Hello I have been reading about North Korea, China, USSR and I was thinking is there any possibility that some people can actually create a socialistic country and keep it that way until they finally manage to make it completely communistic? I mean look at all these countries that had socialism and now (or back then for USSR) turned into the capitalist.

Are the people in the top making the wrong decisions? Are the people not aware of how important communism is? Is it inevitable that capitalism will smash communism wherever it occurs? I mean what the hell?

And a sub-question would you abandon everything if a country stated that it is from now on socialistic? Just asking to see if you prefer to stay to your country to fight or if you would go to that country without second thoughts.

Thanks in advance and PLEASE DON'T RUIN THIS THREAD WITH NONSENSE THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Thanks once again.

[The Jay]

I would say that they returned to Capitalism due to the centralized nature that they used, not that North Korea ever tried to be anything but a pseudo-monarchy but I digress.

[Veovis]

The Russian revolution failed and turned into a bureaucratic morass not because of some failing of Marxism, but because of three main reasons:

1. The economic backwardness of Imperial Russia, which was barely out of feudalism in 1917
2. The Russian civil war, which decimated the working class
3. The fact that the revolution failed in the rest of Europe, leaving Soviet Russia isolated and vulnerable to capitalist aggression.

Marx even said that without a strong working class and a well-developed capitalist economy, socialism would be impossible. At the end of 1918, the Bolsheviks' only hope would have been a successful revolution in Germany - In fact, they hedged all their bets on it, which is why the signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, ceding economically critical territories to Germany in the hopes that the revolution there would subsequently make the treaty irrelevant. We all know how that ended.

[Questionable]

There are some good links in Ismail's signature that deals with these issues of revisionism, if you feel like doing some reading. They basically detail the process through which socialism was revised to become basically capitalism.

http://www.mltranslations.org/Ireland/ico.htm
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

[Камо́ Зэд]

The restoration of private property in the Soviet Union was complete by the time of the Kosygin reforms and was initiated shortly before Stalin's death in 1953. A great article on the subject is Martin Nicolaus's Restoration of Capitalism in the U.S.S.R.

[Ocean Seal]

Hello I have been reading about North Korea, China, USSR and I was thinking is there any possibility that some people can actually create a socialistic country and keep it that way until they finally manage to make it completely communistic? I mean look at all these countries that had socialism and now (or back then for USSR) turned into the capitalist.

Are the people in the top making the wrong decisions? Are the people not aware of how important communism is? Is it inevitable that capitalism will smash communism wherever it occurs? I mean what the hell?

And a sub-question would you abandon everything if a country stated that it is from now on socialistic? Just asking to see if you prefer to stay to your country to fight or if you would go to that country without second thoughts.

Thanks in advance and PLEASE DON'T RUIN THIS THREAD WITH NONSENSE THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Thanks once again.
They didn't have socialism. Even accepting the premise that it is possible to build socialism in one country, they didn't by any means abolish productive relations, nor did they abolish money, nor commodity production, nor participation in capitalist markets, nor did they abolish private property to its fullest extent, especially a country like China (bloc of four classes inherently implies that property and property relations exist).

And no its not impossible for communism to thrive, it is inevitable. The capitalists were defeated at Waterloo. The end of the first wave of workers revolutions ended in Leipzig. There shall be class war until the proletariat stand alone.

[Камо́ Зэд]

. . . they didn't by any means abolish productive relations, nor did they abolish money . . .

. . . what?

[Ocean Seal]

. . . what?
Certainly, I don't mean to say that "teh workers needed to own the means of production", but certainly when the party is managing the resources that the workers create (which again is fine), its best that they not be used for military adventures, whipping the proletariat into shape, and funding the kolkhov farms.
I believe that a proletarian party with a deep penetration in the working class can represent the working class, it must be admitted that the party while it did for the most part represent the interests of workers (especially early on) began to put forth anti-proletarian programmes and expanded them from leader to leader.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Certainly, I don't mean to say that "teh workers needed to own the means of production", but certainly when the party is managing the resources that the workers create (which again is fine), its best that they not be used for military adventures, whipping the proletariat into shape, and funding the kolkhov farms.
I believe that a proletarian party with a deep penetration in the working class can represent the working class, it must be admitted that the party while it did for the most part represent the interests of workers (especially early on) began to put forth anti-proletarian programmes and expanded them from leader to leader.

I don't know that I'd agree that military campaigns are out of the question, and weren't the collective farms necessary?

I don't disagree about the Party, though, if we're talking specifically about the C.P.S.U.

[Blake's Baby]

Hello I have been reading about North Korea, China, USSR and I was thinking is there any possibility that some people can actually create a socialistic country and keep it that way until they finally manage to make it completely communistic? I mean look at all these countries that had socialism and now (or back then for USSR) turned into the capitalist...

It's difficult to know what you mean by 'socialistic' here, but if you mean, 'can the working class take power in one place and then move towards communism', then no they can't. If you mean, 'can the working class take power in one place and hang on until the rest of the world catches up', then I think the answer is 'only if the rest of the world doesn't take very long'. If you mean 'can a workers' party take power and create socialism' then the answer is no.



...
Are the people in the top making the wrong decisions? Are the people not aware of how important communism is? Is it inevitable that capitalism will smash communism wherever it occurs? I mean what the hell?...

I'm sure, historically, that a great many 'wrong decisions' were taken by the Communist Parties of all the so-called 'socialist' countries. Revolutions are made by classes in struggle, not gangs of ministers, so 'wrong decisions' are not as important as class struggle. 'Man makes history but not in circumstances of his chosing'.

'Awareness' has nothing to do with it. Was Tsar Nicholas overthrown because he was stupid? If he'd been more 'aware' could he have prevented the February Revolution? No, because historical changes rarely hinge around the 'awareness' of the participants. Whatever the will of the participants, decisions are taken within a framework that exists for logical but sometimes wrong reasons. After the October revolution, for instance, the CPSU judged that allying with reactionary cliques in Central Asia was a viable tactic as it would help undermine British imperialism. It failed. Did it matter? In the long run, not so much, as the failure of the revolution to successfully spread to Germany meant the revolution was doomed in Russia anyway.

Capitalism can't 'smash' communism, it can only smash the power of the proletariat. Communism can't exist, until capitalism has been smashed. The two don't exist at the same time. But no, it's not inevitable that capitalism will triumph - just as it's not inevitable that the revolution will triumph. It's a war, a class war, a world civil war. Both sides could end up defeated and exhusted, or one side could win. Nothing there is inevitable.


...And a sub-question would you abandon everything if a country stated that it is from now on socialistic? Just asking to see if you prefer to stay to your country to fight or if you would go to that country without second thoughts...

No, I wouldn't abandon the work here to go to some other country when the revolution breaks out there, because the best support for the revolution there is to extend the revolution to here.

I certainly wouldn't go to some other country because some ruling clique decided to drape itself in a red flag.


...Thanks in advance and PLEASE DON'T RUIN THIS THREAD WITH NONSENSE THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Thanks once again.