Cloning

[El Commandante]

As you may have seen on the news recently doctors in America have been able to clone human cells, from a woman's egg and a skin cell. They keep the cells for two days and stop them developing anything further eg into a baby. This they say is purely for medical research such as cancer treatment. Is this necessary or are people metaphorically playing God when it is not needed. Should we leave life alone or is it our right to make changes.

Also there is a doctor in Italy who wants to come to England because the laws are more lax to actually create a cloned human.

I think that for medical research it may be useful, it could lead to a break through for illnesses such as cancer or aids. But to create new life I think is wrong and not our place, if we are here by luck or someone's will we still should not meddel with a very delicate balance.

What do you all think?

[Freiheit]

medical research is good.
but it also can be prostituted.
there must be more laws and pple who look that the laws arnt broken.

but we must give attention, that we dont make ppl to get their organs and stuff. it sounds stupid, i know. but it is possible to make frogs without heads.
maybe it is also possible with humans.

[pce]

i don't know if any of you read or remember my long as hell rant (if you can call it that) on evolution, population, and how we are destroying our natural forms of population control. well if you put that arguement aside then i think what has been done recently in order to help cure diseases is right and okay. the danger as i see it is that if we allow this type of cloning, then it will be that much harder to regulate or catch human cloning in the form of creating another life.

[Freiheit]

but actually, i am a little bit scarred if ppl talk about cloning of humans.

[Nickademus]

i totally disagree with human cloning. there is a natural order to the world and we are totally screwing that up. it is evident in our environmental problems and it evident in the plagues and diseases such as aids
while i think lgbt people will appreciate it because it means they can have kids it is inappropriate. there are too many unwanted kids as is, they really need to be adopted.
again i totally disagree with the idea
along a similar line, but not about human cloning, i suggest you read a book called superpigs and wondercorn. sorry i can't remember the author. its a little outdated but still a good read.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Nickademus on 8:05 pm on Nov. 26, 2001
i totally disagree with human cloning. there is a natural order to the world and we are totally screwing that up. it is evident in our environmental problems and it evident in the plagues and diseases such as aids
while i think lgbt people will appreciate it because it means they can have kids it is inappropriate. there are too many unwanted kids as is, they really need to be adopted.
again i totally disagree with the idea
along a similar line, but not about human cloning, i suggest you read a book called superpigs and wondercorn. sorry i can't remember the author. its a little outdated but still a good read.

you are right!

[RedCeltic]

I think some people are totaly missing the point of the research on cloning human cells. Curently in the US there is a contoversy envolving stem cell research. The research that is to be done would be done on human embryos that would otherwise be discarded as medical waste.

The anti Abortionists think that be conducting such reaserch it would make having an abortion profitable. Somehow they think that when material for stem cell research runs out, that they will resort to buying it. This has caused a major hold up in progress in the research.

The ability to clone the cells neaded to do this stem cell research should curb any complaints from the anti abortionist croud.

No one is even considering cloning a human being... that isn't the issue, as humans are in plentiful supply, and I'm sure the vast majority of people, right or left will be against such a thing.

[Anonymous]

im glad you brought this up El commandante its a very interesting subject to discuss and it would be nice to hear everyones opinion on this.

My opinion is totaly in favor for a number of reasons. Frist of all we are not talking about cloning humans but about cloning cells, this could be used to cure a number of uncurable diseases that have bin uncurable to this day. Lets just think about that for a minute... Things like regenerating the nerves in your spine for example could make a paralised man walk again, or regeneration (cloning) a persons eyes to make the blind see!! And we are going to give this up for what? some missguided sense of morality? because religion says its a mortal sin?
being a nilist i have a very suspecious aproch to anything religion representives say think or do so that takes care of that. If it was for them we would all be living in the dark ages the world would be flat and the sun would revolve around the earth. As for the secular moral oposition to this possibly miraculas cure, the main arguments are: embryos are humans too and this could lead to human cloning. To the frist argument i say your wrong they are not humans they are cells period, thats that end of story. To the second argument, hmm... you know morality is a very tricky thing... the idea of human cloning seams odd to us but who is to say there is anything um moral about it? but anyway thats not what we are discussing is it? no its not. We are talking about cloning cells and there is nothing wrong with that moraly or otherwise from my point of view. Secondly i really dont know if you can stop ppl from doing things if the tecnology is there, and i dont know if you can stop tecnology, but by all means try. But try only on what you think is wrong not on something else you think is related. God bless cience and philosophy

[Nickademus]

El_Che, I am not addressing this from a moral position. My religion takes no position on such a thing

having said that i will reiterate my previous point it would be great that disease could be cured but there are reasons for those diseases. there are too many human beings walking the earth destroy the delicate balance of the world. this balance is trying to kill us off. curing one disease will only create a new more immune disease.

[Guest]

german commmunist PRO cloning in each case!!!!!!!!! why not? why should we be respectful for a god who does not exist? so what are you afraid of? maybe some bad consequence? no, and if there would be...who cares? i wonder: what is you problem???

-MadMarx-
www.schwund-wg.de.vu

[Markxs]

first of all the stage of devolpment is at the very low level ( ppl might never be helped from it ) . secondly the piece of skin was not a piece of skin at all it was another part of the human being which i cant remember ( since did we leftist started beleiving everything some company tolld us ) .

there are lots of other inatiatives like xeno-transplantation of organs ( animal to human ). who are an alternative to cloning. or the own stem cells that are taken from the stuff in your leg ( damn english ), like the shit thats in your spine i mean. that investigation is way better not morally doubted by anyone and why should we clone ? ok first we let the cell grow two days the 5 i think we need to draw the line of research here before we get this blue eyes blond hair patriot heart ppl here again ( refering to hitler .........)

[Anonymous]

cience should run its course. And we need to adress the over population of planet earth by family planing and evoding the brith of to many children. If you look at developed nations this happens naturaly so i think once developing nation reach the stage we are at now population will decress. In any case the answer if surely not to let ppl die, to let them continue sick or blind or paralised when that could be cured. Who knows maybe in 200 years we can terrafrom mars and solve our Resourse probs. Its the way i feel anyway...

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Guest on 10:30 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
german commmunist PRO cloning in each case!!!!!!!!! why not? why should we be respectful for a god who does not exist? so what are you afraid of? maybe some bad consequence? no, and if there would be...who cares? i wonder: what is you problem???

-MadMarx-
www.schwund-wg.de.vu


okay folks GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ARGUMENT

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Nickademus on 4:19 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
El_Che, I am not addressing this from a moral position. My religion takes no position on such a thing

having said that i will reiterate my previous point it would be great that disease could be cured but there are reasons for those diseases. there are too many human beings walking the earth destroy the delicate balance of the world. this balance is trying to kill us off. curing one disease will only create a new more immune disease.


Nickadermus, I understand your points here... and let me assure you I am no fan of overpopulation myself. However I have to respectfuly disagree. The fact that there are more people now than ever before should not be a reason to derail advances in medical science.

[Anonymous]

i really dont think there is any other argument besides the morality issue...

[Freiheit]

Quote: from El_Che on 8:14 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
i really dont think there is any other argument besides the morality issue...

but our whole life is based on morality!

another arguement, if a clon is borned, he is actually as
old as his father, he is born with 50 years, because his
nucleus (DNA) is so old, he doesnt work as well as
baby produced by sexual reprotuction.

[Drifter]

i don't give a rats arse about this 'natural order' crap,
i am against it purely on the grounds that i i wouldn't want to be a clone, and i don't think anyone else would be too happy about it either.

[RedCeltic]

Yes Yes... cloning people is clearly wrong... however... is it wrong to do stem cell research in order to make people live longer? Are we disturbing the 'natural order of things'?

What is more inhumane? To allow people to suffer from such alments as cancers because we are afrade to 'disrupt the natural orders of things?' Or to do the research... be able to cure disease, therefore having more people live longer, and have less resources to feed more people?

To me... solving world population problems should not take on the shape of denying ourselves the ability to cure diseases. We should not simply let people die because there are too many people in the world.

That's like supporting war because it will cut back on some of this exess population.




(Edited by RedCeltic at 6:08 am on Nov. 29, 2001)

[Guest]

Cloning. Well it is a tough subject because of all the moral problems it touches on. Personaly i dont have problem with it. The technology is there anyway and theres no way we can de-evolve and forget the knowledge we have, science cannot and shouldn't go backwards. This means that the research into this field is going to continue all the same.
I dont disagree with cloning because as a communist I belive that everyone has the right and should have the opportunity to have as full a life as possible. If there are terminal diseases or phisical conditions which are limiting life or causing death before its time then if we can cure these or reduce their effects SAFELY then why not? We already alter the natural balance with medicines, operations, transplants, vitamins, pesticides, etc. People once objected to these but all that was needed was education and regulation.
One of the major worries i do have about clonning is that the technology will get into the wrong hands and not be used for purposes of helping the human race but increasing wealth or destroying life. For example, the technology could get into the hands of large corporations that could exploit it. Or into the hands of the military (although they probably already have it) who would be useing it for the purpose of finding better ways to kill people. This is why it is vital that the whole subject is loked at soon and regulations set and laws passed to stop the technology and science that could be so beneficial to the human race being wasted or expolited.

[Drifter]

i don't like the term 'inhumane' , and as for benefits, well, technology doesn't really make the majority of people better off anyway. the best drugs and treatment go to those who can afford it, society is still in the same state it allways was and lets say from the environmental point of view, all the technology, medical or whatever, seems to do more harm than good.

[Anonymous]

quote from RC
To me... solving world population problems should not take on the shape of denying ourselves the ability to cure diseases. We should not simply let people die because there are too many people in the world.

That's like supporting war because it will cut back on some of this exess population.


exactly man... and drifter we are not talking about cloning humans...

[Freiheit]

anyway, there are too many humans on planet earth,
and only the rich west would profit from the new medicin
which could be developed.
i am against cloning.
ppl who cant get their own children they should adopt
kids.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Freiheit on 6:18 pm on Nov. 29, 2001
only the rich west would profit from the new medicin
which could be developed.

Which is why we need to push for more socialised medical care... and push for these advances to be made available to all... not simply the rich.


i am against cloning.
ppl who cant get their own children they should adopt
kids.

I agree there... I support family planing centers... introducing sex ed at an early age... distrabution of provalactives... and of course I fully support a woman's right to chose.

Also... I am against fertility drugs that enable crazy people to have a litter of seven children... It is simply not humane to bring all those kids into the world knowing full well that most of them will have medical problems and suffer their entire lives.

Helping people live longer quality lives to me seems like a good idea... while also helping to limit the amount of people born... and encouraging the rich to adopt rather than to resort to test tube children, fertility drugs... or... god forbid... human clones!

[Freiheit]

"Which is why we need to push for more socialised medical care... and push for these advances to be made available to all... not simply the rich"

i agree, RedCeltic.

but another point, think at that:

maybe sometime it will be standard that you live for 200 years, because you it is planned that you get every of your organs replaced etc. and this organs are industriel produced.
i dont think that would be right, humans are not made to live 200 years.

[Drifter]

oh well, who cares what you clone then?
you might as well say transplants are wrong.

[RedCeltic]

maybe sometime it will be standard that you live for 200 years, because you it is planned that you get every of your organs replaced etc. and this organs are industriel produced.
i dont think that would be right, humans are not made to live 200 years.

It sounds odd I know.... but what was once the relm of sci/fi is now science fact... only a few years ago if you asked someone if they would ever be able to make someone live for 200 years... they would laugh in your face.... it's just not humanly possible!

However today... it seems the world of science is changing by the day... It was only 8 years ago that they where able to take a mouse gene that generated eyes... and exchange it with a fruit fly gene... the result was ground breaking! The fly generated normal eyes...therefore proving that the code was universal.

Scientists had done what for many years had been thought of as impossible. And in only a short period... a matter of years... scottish scientists where able to clone sheep. The step from cloning an organism to a few human cells is in fact a backcwards one for science...however... seems astounding in our little minds...

The advances in genitics only proves that we are not so high and mighty as we would like to think we are... we are simply animals on this planet... and the theory that all land cretures have decended from a comon ancestor is now within our grasp of being proven beyond a doubt.

Should people be alowed to live as long as 200 years? The thought boggles the mind! Think of what an impact that would bring... imagine... there is clearly no easy answer on this...

on the one hand... it seems wrong to deny ourselves the ability to cure world diseases and medical problems...

However... one can't help but envision a world where if you have enough money... you can practicly live forever... have as many children as money will allow...

With world populations teeming out of control as they are... this seems insane.

As none of us are in the scientific community... all of this is out of our hands anyway... and all one can do is wonder....

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Drifter on 10:52 pm on Nov. 29, 2001
oh well, who cares what you clone then?
you might as well say transplants are wrong.


it sounds very hard, but with the money you need for a
tranplatation you could save houndreds or thousands of
lifes in africa.
but transplantation is a good thing, because it is not
created by sience, it is just a person who died and with
its heart or ... another life is saved.
what i wanted to say:
the human shouldnt live for 200 years.
in the moment he lives 75 years and does enough shit.