Pro-rebel source: Most "Syrian" rebel fighters are foreign salafists

[khad]

http://news.yahoo.com/jihadists-join-aleppo-fight-eye-islamic-state-surgeon-152013532.html


In an interview with Reuters in his central Paris apartment on Saturday, the 71-year-old said that contrary to his previous visits to Homs and Idlib earlier this year about 60 percent of those he had treated this time had been rebel fighters and that at least half of them had been non-Syrian.

"It's really something strange to see. They are directly saying that they aren't interested in Bashar al-Assad's fall, but are thinking about how to take power afterwards and set up an Islamic state with sharia law to become part of the world Emirate," the doctor said.

The foreign jihadists included young Frenchmen who said they were inspired by Mohammed Merah, a self-styled Islamist militant from Toulouse, who killed seven people in March in the name of al-Qaeda.

Assad himself has consistently maintained that the 17-month-old insurgency against him is largely the work of people he refers to as "foreign-backed terrorists" and says his forces are acting to restore stability.

During his previous visits to Syria - in March and May - Beres said he had dismissed suggestions the rebels were dominated by Islamist fighters but he said he had now been forced to reassess the situation.

[fug]

Of course.
Foreign Jihadists and evil doers supported by the darkest reaction and imperialism.
I hope Syrians endure and chase these snakes out of Syria.

[James Connolly]

Reuters is, by far, one of the best Western sources out there, as is the trait of many business related newspapers.

A trait of the Liberal press is alienation of conflicting perspectives. News has literally boiled down to a huge 'clusterfuck' of subjective twaddling.

[Sir Comradical]

Blackwater has its fingerprints all over this.

"The idea of Blackwater’s role in the Syrian unrest developed after Egyptian writer Mohammad Husayn Haykal said that the firm has more than 6,000 mercenaries operating against Damascus inside and outside the country."

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/01/253933/us-mercs-training-syria-rebels-in-turkey/

[brigadista]

apparently they blew up a hospital in Homs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9521312/Syrian-rebels-claim-to-have-blown-up-hospital-in-Homs.html

[Sasha]

The FSA took out the leader of a foreign jihaddist group that kidnapped a dutch journalist a while ago, the journo said the jihaddists where a fraction of the active fighters and even the jihaddists among themselves where highly heterogeneous; going from nihilist british-pakistani kids who saw to much al-qaida propaganda to libians just wanting to help out taking down another dictator.
The journo also said the only "jihaddists" welcomed by the syrians where specialised bomb making units consisting of veterans of the Iraqi insurgency who ironicly where trained by assads own secret service...

[Sir Comradical]

The FSA took out the leader of a foreign jihaddist group that kidnapped a dutch journalist a while ago, the journo said the jihaddists where a fraction of the active fighters and even the jihaddists among themselves where highly heterogeneous; going from nihilist british-pakistani kids who saw to much al-qaida propaganda to libians just wanting to help out taking down another dictator.
The journo also said the only "jihaddists" welcomed by the syrians where specialised bomb making units consisting of veterans of the Iraqi insurgency who ironicly where trained by assads own secret service...

Sources please.

[Sasha]

Sources please.


http://www.sacbee.com/2012/09/07/4798469/syria-rebels-say-they-killed-leader.html

the interviews with the dutch journalist are all either video in dutch or dutch text behind a pay-wall but i can link to them if you want...

i'm not saying there are no foreign salafi's, there clearly are but claiming "Most "Syrian" rebel fighters are foreign salafists" is just as ridiculous propaganda as claiming they are not there at all...

[Sasha]

thanks for telling us.but how would you know,because a dutch journalist says.
if they are foreign ,western ,europeans salfists or not,as the op article suggest.the rest are syrian salifist fascists.they arent liberals,they deserve no fkin support.

it's a similar situation to 80safghanistan-western support for international jihadist groups.

Ah, the simplicity of the anti-imps, never mind that the journo's almost got killed because the salafists though they where CIA.....

[fug]

Ah, the simplicity of the anti-imps, never mind that the journo's almost got killed because the salafists though they where CIA.....
What does that have to do with anything and what justification is this for you to mock anti-imperialism?

[Sasha]

Except that its false, as the link I linked to mentioned there are also secular and moderately islamic brigades not to mention that the Muslim brotherhood related groups are still the biggest faction of all...
You know, the syrian Muslim brotherhood who are closely linked to hamas, that same hamas your beloved pflp does joint military operations with in palestine, while at the same time being part of the PLO with the western backed fatah... but I know, when its Israel/Palestine/Lebanon its complicated and shades of grey and such and national liberation/ anti-zionism takes priority over not working with reactionary islamist anti-semites and western capitalist stooges but when its in sirya its a completely different story ofcourse...

But go ahead and keep shouting in ALLCAPS!!

[Sasha]

What does that have to do with anything and what justification is this for you to mock anti-imperialism?

I don't mock anti-imperialism, I mock self declared "anti-imperialists"... you know, these ppl who think cuddling up to any imperialist bourgeois capital that nominally positions itself against "the west" is a revolutionary leftist ideology...

[fug]

you know, these ppl who think cuddling up to any imperialist bourgeois capital that nominally positions itself against "the west" is a revolutionary leftist ideology... That's not a question of "ideology" but tactics ( wrong ones too ), there's a clear line between "cuddling up to" and chosing sides.

[Sir Comradical]

Except that its false, as the link I linked to mentioned there are also secular and moderately islamic brigades not to mention that the Muslim brotherhood related groups are still the biggest faction of all...
You know, the syrian Muslim brotherhood who are closely linked to hamas, that same hamas your beloved pflp does joint military operations with in palestine, while at the same time being part of the PLO with the western backed fatah... but I know, when its Israel/Palestine/Lebanon its complicated and shades of grey and such and national liberation/ anti-zionism takes priority over not working with reactionary islamist anti-semites and western capitalist stooges but when its in sirya its a completely different story ofcourse...

But go ahead and keep shouting in ALLCAPS!!

Yes, there's a difference between resisting Israeli aggression and fighting the Syrian government as a proxy army of US imperialism. In the former case it doesn't matter who's doing the resisting. However in the latter, the MAIN issue is that the US and it's allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey are working to overthrow the government. Nothing progressive can come out of a FSA victory.

[Sir Comradical]

I don't mock anti-imperialism, I mock self declared "anti-imperialists"... you know, these ppl who think cuddling up to any imperialist bourgeois capital that nominally positions itself against "the west" is a revolutionary leftist ideology...

Wait wait, so you're saying Syria is an imperialist country?

And here I am thinking it's a sanctioned semi-colony. :rolleyes:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Is there something progressive about the Syrian national bourgeoisie remaining in power?

[Sasha]

Wait wait, so you're saying Syria is an imperialist country?

And here I am thinking it's a sanctioned semi-colony. :rolleyes:

Assads regime is under the protection of the world and regional imperial powers China, Russia and Iran... while its own involvement in Lebanon and till recently Gaza could very well be called imperialism as well...

[Sasha]

Yes, there's a difference between resisting Israeli aggression and fighting the Syrian government as a proxy army of US imperialism. In the former case it doesn't matter who's doing the resisting.

Wow, I really love to hear your arguments for that one... israeli aggression a special kind of agression? How does the occupation of Palestine differ from let's say the occuption of kurdistan?

[freepalestine]

Except that its false, as the link I linked to mentioned there are also secular and moderately islamic brigades not to mention that the Muslim brotherhood related groups are still the biggest faction of all...
You know, the syrian Muslim brotherhood who are closely linked to hamas, that same hamas your beloved pflp does joint military operations with in palestine, while at the same time being part of the PLO with the western backed fatah... but I know, when its Israel/Palestine/Lebanon its complicated and shades of grey and such and national liberation/ anti-zionism takes priority over not working with reactionary islamist anti-semites and western capitalist stooges but when its in sirya its a completely different story ofcourse...

But go ahead and keep shouting in ALLCAPS!!why cant you debate.never understand why you have to use pointless insults.

there are no secular brigades in syria,they are mostly all salfists fighting for a some caliphate.dont get why youd seem strangely sympathetic to the fsa's fascist revloution.
non are moderate,they are salfists,and only one brigade ive heard of are link with syrian mb,tawhid brigades.
Why are imperilasit powrs supporting the fsa?why are the usa ,uk,france,NATO,gcc supporting the destruction of Syria?

i'm against islamist politcal groups because they are fascists not becuase they are supposedly against isreal,zionism or imperialsim.

also you mention hamas and the fsa salifists in syria.why is it punishable by law in west to give funds to hamas, yet you are ok to send money to extremists salafists in syria.ironically in usa an ex nato general is running one of the main charity for fsa.





Wow, I really love to hear your arguments for that one... israeli aggression a special kind of agression? How does the occupation of Palestine differ from let's say the occuption of kurdistan?
the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Palestine . the kurds for all oppression are still in 'kurdistan'.unlike the armenians who lived in what's now 'eastern turkey'.

[Sasha]

there are no secular brigades in syria,they are mostly all salfists fighting for a some caliphate.dont get why youd seem strangely sympathetic to the fsa's fascist revloution.
non are moderate,they are salfists,and only one brigade ive heard of are link with syrian mb,tawhid brigades.
Why are imperilasit powrs supporting the fsa?why are the usa ,uk,france,NATO,gcc supporting the destruction of Syria?

your claims that western-imperialists would support salafist groups are as absurds as the neo-cons claims that sadam was in bed with bin laden, there is absolutely no proof for it, its ideological baloney



also you mention hamas and the fsa salifists in syria.why is it punishable by law in west to give funds to hamas, yet you are ok to send money to extremists salafists in syria.even u.s. as ex nato general running one of the main charity for fsa.i never sended money to the FSA, i sended money to a secular LCC with leftist principles, contrary to you i understand the syrian conflict for the mudled complicated mess that it is... sending money to jihadist groups is higly illegal here and since i'm already on the special intrest list of our inteligence services if i would have done that i would now be in jail...





the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Palestine . the kurds for all oppression are still in 'kurdistan'.
you got to be shitting me, since 1974 over 60.000 "turkish" kurds got killed, 3.000.000 got displaced, 3.000 kurdish vilages got buldozerd flat and thats again only in "turkish" kurdistan, sadam (another brave anti-imperialist hero) killed more than 180.000 kurds in the anfal genocidal campaing, not included the + 5.000 gassed on one single day in halabja, and then we have all the shit pulled in iran (10 thousand killed), syria (300.000 denied any form of citizenship) and azberdjan (150.000 deported by seperatist armanians)...

sorry but what are the palestinan stats again?

and you have the guts to say i'm the person who cant have a serious discussion, you cant even bother to get your basic facts straight before you open your mouth.

[Rafiq]

The FSA took out the leader of a foreign jihaddist group that kidnapped a dutch journalist a while ago, the journo said the jihaddists where a fraction of the active fighters and even the jihaddists among themselves where highly heterogeneous; going from nihilist british-pakistani kids who saw to much al-qaida propaganda to libians just wanting to help out taking down another dictator.
The journo also said the only "jihaddists" welcomed by the syrians where specialised bomb making units consisting of veterans of the Iraqi insurgency who ironicly where trained by assads own secret service...

These were Islamists?

[cynicles]

Actually the idea that these Salafist brigades would be in bed directly with the US may be ridiculous but indirectly vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia would make sense given teh long relation between the US and various reactionary Islamist contigents throughout teh region in opposition to leftists and arab nationalists. Just because Some of them turned on the US, Bin Laden and the like, doesn't mean other ones can't be bought off or new ones reformed. Islamists, even the ultra-conservative types, are very opportunistic.

[#FF0000]

damn son how braindead do you have to be to support the syrian rebels.

[#FF0000]

your claims that western-imperialists would support salafist groups are as absurds as the neo-cons claims that sadam was in bed with bin laden, there is absolutely no proof for it, its ideological baloney

Afghanistan. Libya. The entire 20th century.

Jesus Christ dude.

Are you seriously suggesting that the US doesn't have a history of funding and supporting Islamic fundamentalists or am I misunderstanding?

[Sasha]

god.....
o.k. again:
anyone calling the MB salafists is a idiot with no knowledge of islam, political islam and the different strains of it and uses ideological driven islamophobic rethoric more suitable for wilders and friends.
while his writings on islamic social justice remain a core tenant of the MB ideology Sayyid Qutb's writings on Jihad are now firmly rejected among the brotherhood. And yes, this shit is important, the fact that wahabists and the MB reject individual jihad on the grounds that "only rulers can declare jihad" gives an opening for (at least the anti-authoritarians among us) to influence the jihaddists attracted youth away from reactionary salafist towards more progressive movements..
are the MB deeply reactionary? yes. are they salafists? fucking no. and no they are not fascist either FP.... they are just another bunch of authoritarian capitalists lusting only for worldly power. The religious windowdressing is just that, windowdressing to mobilize the poor, the uneducated, the angry youth and the repressed.
stop calling things things which they are not, it makes you all look stupid and misinformed....
It's baffling to see al this supposed materialists jumping on the "lets say stupid untrue shit to fuel bigotry instead of class analysis bandwagon" as soon as some anti-islamic distraction can be seized upon.

(and on that note, I really don't get why its always the stalinists going mental on the MB and wahabists, you should get along greatly... maybe you don't want the competition/ don't like people stealing your schtick...)

[Sasha]

Also, no one answered my simple question "why is it acceptable for supposedly communists in Palestine to work with the MB, salafists and actual western stooges but are they all satan reincarnated in Syria" yet, at least be consequent...
Anti-imp "analysis" is so totally bankrupt...

[Devrim]

the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Palestine . the kurds for all oppression are still in 'kurdistan'.
you got to be shitting me, since 1974 over 60.000 "turkish" kurds got killed,...
, you cant even bother to get your basic facts straight before you open your mouth.

I am not sure what sort of basic facts that you are using here. Figures on the war in Turkish Kurdistan are generally given since 1984 when the PKK launched its armed struggle, the death toll is currently at over 40,000, not 60.000 and that refers to combatants on all sides, not just Kurds, but also members of the Turkish armed forces.

Perhaps you have misremembered these figures.

I don't think it is in any way useful to construct some sort of hierarchy of oppression, but obviously in numerical terms what has happened in Turkish Kurdistan exceeds in all ways what has happened in Palestine, and in a much shorter period.


the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Palestine . the kurds for all oppression are still in 'kurdistan'.

Well actually there are about 1.6 million Arabs still living in what is now the state of Israel. Kurds have also been cleansed from certain areas, and the number of people displaced by the struggle in Turkish Kurdistan far exceeds the number of people who were ethnically cleansed in Palestine.

If we are not, however, trying to build a hierarchy of oppression, this proves very little except when we come up against the argument that there is something 'special' about Israeli oppression. There isn't. Nor is it in any way the worst example. It is a sad fact that ethnic cleansing and genocide are endemic to capitalism.

The Palestinian case is highlighted in the international media partially because there are more Arabs in the world who make a noise about it. There are a lot less Kurds, and there is no Kurdish state. However, there are more Kurds than Assyrio-Chaldeans, and I am pretty certain that more people have heard about the oppresion visited on Kurds than have heard about the Assyrio-Chaldean genocide, which was just one of a series of genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman and Turkish states.


i'm not saying there are no foreign salafi's, there clearly are but claiming "Most "Syrian" rebel fighters are foreign salafists" is just as ridiculous propaganda as claiming they are not there at all...

What the piece quoted in the OP said was that:


In an interview with Reuters in his central Paris apartment on Saturday, the 71-year-old said that contrary to his previous visits to Homs and Idlib earlier this year about 60 percent of those he had treated this time had been rebel fighters and that at least half of them had been non-Syrian.

So 'at least half' of the rebel fighters treated by one doctor over a short period in two towns were judged by him to be foreign.

Claiming on the basis of this that "Most "Syrian" rebel fighters are foreign salafists" would be, as you say, absurd.


i never sended money to the FSA, i sended money to a secular LCC with leftist principles, contrary to you i understand the syrian conflict for the mudled complicated mess that it is... sending money to jihadist groups is higly illegal here and since i'm already on the special intrest list of our inteligence services if i would have done that i would now be in jail...

Equally though, the idea that just because not ever group there is Salafist that there is some real revolutionary movement with any sort of class content going on there is also pretty doubtful.

Devrim

[Devrim]

i'm against islamist politcal groups because they are fascists not becuase they are supposedly against isreal,zionism or imperialsim.

The idea that all Islamicist political groups are fascist clearly empties the term fascist of any meaning whatsoever, and reduces it to a throw around insult for conservatives we don't like.

Devrim

[Devrim]

You know, the syrian Muslim brotherhood who are closely linked to hamas, that same hamas your beloved pflp does joint military operations with in palestine, while at the same time being part of the PLO with the western backed fatah... but I know, when its Israel/Palestine/Lebanon its complicated and shades of grey and such and national liberation/ anti-zionism takes priority over not working with reactionary islamist anti-semites and western capitalist stooges but when its in sirya its a completely different story ofcourse...
Also, no one answered my simple question "why is it acceptable for supposedly communists in Palestine to work with the MB, salafists and actual western stooges but are they all satan reincarnated in Syria" yet, at least be consequent...
Anti-imp "analysis" is so totally bankrupt...

There is a reasonable question here, which nobody has yet condescended to answer.

Devrim

[Rottenfruit]

Salaffists are scum, hardcore reactionary imperialistic theocrats

[Rottenfruit]

Also, no one answered my simple question "why is it acceptable for supposedly communists in Palestine to work with the MB, salafists and actual western stooges but are they all satan reincarnated in Syria" yet, at least be consequent...
Anti-imp "analysis" is so totally bankrupt...
Working with salafists is 100% wrong and reactirony in pretty much all scenarios,

[Sir Comradical]

Assads regime is under the protection of the world and regional imperial powers China, Russia and Iran...

Even if we accept that Russia, China and Iran (really lol?) are "imperialist", that doesn't make Syria an imperialist country. That's like saying every third world country on great terms with the US is somehow "imperialist". Hell that means the whole world is imperialist.


while its own involvement in Lebanon and till recently Gaza could very well be called imperialism as well...

Invading a country isn't by and of itself, imperialism. In Gaza, Syria was assisting Hamas, you know the democratically elected government that resisted an Israeli-backed Fatah coup followed by a full blown IDF assault? So you're saying that Syria's support for Hamas...is imperialism? Wow.

[Beeth]

The word 'imperialist' has lost its meaning today. Any country that decides not to be a doormat is accused of being an imperialist. Even leftists fail to see imperialism as capitalism in decay, and wrongly think aggressive nation=imperialist.

[fug]

The 4 pillars of imperialism:

-the concentration of production and capital, which reaches such a high stage that it causes the creation of monopolies that dominate economic life.

-the merging of bank capital with industrial capital and the creation on this basis of a financial oligarchy

-the export of capital, as distinguished from that of commodities

-the territorial division of the world among the major capitalist powers

So in this thread we have the 4 pillars and an extra column :laugh:

[Devrim]

Also, no one answered my simple question "why is it acceptable for supposedly communists in Palestine to work with the MB, salafists and actual western stooges but are they all satan reincarnated in Syria" yet, at least be consequent...
Anti-imp "analysis" is so totally bankrupt...
Working with salafists is 100% wrong and reactirony in pretty much all scenarios,

But that is not what the question is asking. What it is asking is why is it OK to support groups like HAMAS in Palestine (or groups like the PLFP that trail after HAMAS), but it is not acceptable to support the Ikwan in Syria, which is particularly strange as they are part of the same organisation.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Even if we accept that Russia, China and Iran (really lol?) are "imperialist", that doesn't make Syria an imperialist country. That's like saying every third world country on great terms with the US is somehow "imperialist". Hell that means the whole world is imperialist.


Even according to the standard Leninist definition of imperialism, it is not a policy of specific states, but a stage of capitalist development. The title of his book is 'Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism', not 'Imperialism: a Rather Nasty Policy Pursued by Specific States', so yes the term imperialism is a description of the world system.

Devrim

[Sir Comradical]

Even according to the standard Leninist definition of imperialism, it is not a policy of specific states, but a stage of capitalist development. The title of his book is 'Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism', not 'Imperialism: a Rather Nasty Policy Pursued by Specific States', so yes the term imperialism is a description of the world system.

Devrim

I should have wrote: "Hell that makes every country in the world imperialist". Sorry.

[Devrim]

I should have wrote: "Hell that makes every country in the world imperialist". Sorry.

I still think that you are missing the point. It is the world system that is imperialist, and every country is a part of this system. It is not that some countries are imperialist and others not.

Devrim

[Beeth]

I still think that you are missing the point. It is the world system that is imperialist, and every country is a part of this system. It is not that some countries are imperialist and others not.

Devrim

It may be a world system, but only certain countries dominate within this system. And these countries, at least for convenience's sake, are referred to as imperialist.

[Sir Comradical]

I still think that you are missing the point. It is the world system that is imperialist, and every country is a part of this system. It is not that some countries are imperialist and others not.

Devrim

So there's no such thing as a core and a periphery, no imperial centre, colonies and semi-colonies?

[Rafiq]

Also, no one answered my simple question "why is it acceptable for supposedly communists in Palestine to work with the MB, salafists and actual western stooges but are they all satan reincarnated in Syria" yet, at least be consequent...
Anti-imp "analysis" is so totally bankrupt...

It isn't. (?)

[Sasha]

It isn't. (?)

Thats is the most logical answer, i guess others could be given too, strangely I never hear here even the slightest condemnation of the pflp's "tactical" choices though, even the pflp itself has a more honest approach to these cooperations than its fan boys raising hell in this thread...

[Solidarity]

Salafis have always been more radical when it comes to enforcing Shariah Law

[Sasha]

Salafis have always been more radical when it comes to enforcing Shariah Law

Wut? Yes, thats basically what salafism means, a strict adherence to a extremely conservative interpretation of the koran. But what was the point you where trying to make in relation to the discussion at hand?

[Devrim]

It may be a world system, but only certain countries dominate within this system. And these countries, at least for convenience's sake, are referred to as imperialist.

It is a conveniences sake, which seems to lead to some countries being described as 'anti-imperialist', which is patently absurd.

Devrim

[Devrim]

So there's no such thing as a core and a periphery, no imperial centre, colonies and semi-colonies?

What is the core and what is the periphery today?

Is there a single imperial centre?

There are no colonies any more (disregarding a few small island). What do you mean by semi-colony?

Devrim

[Juche]

Blackwater has its fingerprints all over this.

"The idea of Blackwater’s role in the Syrian unrest developed after Egyptian writer Mohammad Husayn Haykal said that the firm has more than 6,000 mercenaries operating against Damascus inside and outside the country."

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/01/253933/us-mercs-training-syria-rebels-in-turkey/

Damn Imperialist American Blackwater. Okay I guess it' official I see. I definitely am 100% supportive of President Bashar al Assad. Btw, just for others who may be interested. The Syrian government has some facebook pages online. You can find them and press the like button to help share with your friends to support them.

Hopefully Iran will make sure Syria doesn't fall.

[PhoenixAsh]

Damn Imperialist American Blackwater. Okay I guess it' official I see. I definitely am 100% supportive of President Bashar al Assad. Btw, just for others who may be interested. The Syrian government has some facebook pages online. You can find them and press the like button to help share with your friends to support them.

Hopefully Iran will make sure Syria doesn't fall.

This is essentially a very, very good idea because we all know liking a facebook page changes the world.

But why the hell I would support and like the Assad family or the government of Syria, you know...tyrannical almost monarchical capitalist structure and all....is beyond me.

[Juche]

This is essentially a very, very good idea because we all know liking a facebook page changes the world.

But why the hell I would support and like the Assad family or the government of Syria, you know...tyrannical almost monarchical capitalist structure and all....is beyond me.

They seem to think it will help.

Because, it's not that the government is essentially the "good guys" it's just that they're the lesser of two evils.

[PhoenixAsh]

They seem to think it will help.

Because, it's not that the government is essentially the "good guys" it's just that they're the lesser of two evils.

nono...they are the other one of the two evils. This is a stuggle between capitalist factions. I don't support either of them.


But weren't you just saying you definately supported Assad 100% ?

[Ostrinski]

Like I said in the other thread

Why do we have to "take sides" so casually as if this is a football match?

Taking a side in a conflict such as this is like taking sides in bourgeois elections - why take the side of one wing of the bourgeoisie? There is no working class political alternative so any distinguished communist is going to be neutral on this issue.

From those that see either the rebels or the Assad government as better than the other are likely to be the same types to call for a critical vote for liberal parties.

[Juche]

nono...they are the other one of the two evils. This is a stuggle between capitalist factions. I don't support either of them.


But weren't you just saying you definately supported Assad 100% ?

Well yeah I support Assad if America supports the rebels.

Not supporting him because I like him, but because he's resisting American Imperialism. That's my view on it.

[Sir Comradical]

What is the core and what is the periphery today?

Is there a single imperial centre?

There are no colonies any more (disregarding a few small island). What do you mean by semi-colony?

Devrim

So there's no difference between the USA and say Guatemala?

[Beeth]

It is a conveniences sake, which seems to lead to some countries being described as 'anti-imperialist', which is patently absurd.

Devrim

Going by your logic, capitalism is also a world system. Does that mean there are no individual capitalists?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Going by your logic, capitalism is also a world system. Does that mean there are no individual capitalists?
No, but the problem is the system, not the individual capitalists.

Just the same as the global economic system is the problem, not the individual nations that make it up. There is inequality between the individual actors, but all of the actors make up the system which is what initially creates them and allows them to function.

This is the dialectic that the left seems to miss for some reason. It is the system that needs to be transformed - taking sides with actors within the system only serves to preserve the functionality of the system itself, as you are justifying the system in which these actors exist within and are a product of, as these actors are what allow the system to function. To take sides in this conflict is to justify the conflict itself, which is the very conflict which results in oppressed and oppressors.

In short: I support the oppressed people of Syria In this conflict, they have no real representation outside of the oppressive system that they exist within and are a product of. As a result, I support neither Assad nor the rebels, as neither side truly represents the oppressed people of Syria

[PhoenixAsh]

Well yeah I support Assad if America supports the rebels.

Not supporting him because I like him, but because he's resisting American Imperialism. That's my view on it.

So you are supporting one inhumane and anti-revolutionary system against another?

How about opposing imperialism on the principles of imperialism and not based on picking sides and remain free to unbiased criticism of global capitalism?

[Beeth]

No, but the problem is the system, not the individual capitalists.

Just the same as the global economic system is the problem, not the individual nations that make it up. There is inequality between the individual actors, but all of the actors make up the system which is what initially creates them and allows them to function.

This is the dialectic that the left seems to miss for some reason. It is the system that needs to be transformed - taking sides with actors within the system only serves to preserve the functionality of the system itself, as you are justifying the system in which these actors exist within and are a product of, as these actors are what allow the system to function. To take sides in this conflict is to justify the conflict itself, which is the very conflict which results in oppressed and oppressors.

In short: I support the oppressed people of Syria In this conflict, they have no real representation outside of the oppressive system that they exist within and are a product of. As a result, I support neither Assad nor the rebels, as neither side truly represents the oppressed people of Syria

Capitalism is a world system, which means there are capitalists and those who are being oppressed by capitalists. Imperialism is a world system, which means there are imperialists and those who are being oppressed by imperialists. Yeah, the system is the problem, no need to preach to the choir, but we should go beyond these platitudes and realize that the players within the system are real and not some abstract entities.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Well yeah I support Assad if America supports the rebels.


Fuck me you're dense.

So you'll support a guy who will kill workers like there's no tomorrow to hold on to power, simply because some other country supports the other side? So where does this end?

Presumably, once those evil Americans leave, you'll change opinions and take on Assad on behalf of the working class, right? Except, whilst Capitalism exists, imperialism will not go away, so essentially you're committing yourself to supporting Assad 100% (your words, not mine) until Capitalism falls. So, essentially, even when Socialism rises, you'll still be supporting this tinpot little dictator who is not qualified to run a bar let alone a country, only by the little sperm that created half of him, who kills workers without a thought just like the Americans and other Capitalists and imperialists.

You're a disgrace to the working class and an enemy both of our survival and emancipation.

[Devrim]

Going by your logic, capitalism is also a world system. Does that mean there are no individual capitalists?

No, there are individual capitalists just as there are individual imperialist powers.

I don't think that this analogy in any way helps your argument though unless you would suggest supporting smaller capitalists against larger ones whether it would be supporting Burger King against McDonalds, or Bob's Burger Bar against McDonalds.

Devrim

[Sasha]

to be fair, i do boycot mcdonalds and sometimes eat at burger king, but thats just because mcdonals is gross as fuck..

[Juche]

because some other country supports the other side?




It's not just some country, it's the most fascist capitalist nation on earth.
The one nation that has been a natural enemy of the left ever since it was born.
America.

If America has it's hands somewhere I'm 99.99% sure that they're up to no good.
You really think they're trying to "help" the working people of Syria? I'm actually curious on that answer.





You're a disgrace to the working class and an enemy both of our survival and emancipation.

You really think the rebels are fighting for anything less than islamic capatalistic fascism? You go on to later say he's killing his workers... Maybe more accurate words would be armed insurgents? You fail to realize when civilians are killed it's because the rebels used them as human shields.

You call me dense and say I'm supporting capitalism for supporting the CLOSEST side to the left which is the ba'athist party "it's a socialist political ideology".... Yet you don't think it's funny that you're supporting capitalist american imperialism? ??? Hypocrisy at it's best?

If you support American/western european globalism/imperialism then there is no reason to believe that you don't also support capitalism, is there?

btw fyi
I'd support the PYG if they have ties to the PKK since they're on the left. The PYG says they have no ties to the PKK, they might just be saying that so America and Turkey don't attack them? Idk. But I don't know much about the PYG so I don't know if I would support them or not. I'm not against them per se either.
Now if the PKK got directly involved I would support them 100% but I don't know if they're in the picture or not.

[Juche]

No, there are individual capitalists just as there are individual imperialist powers.

I don't think that this analogy in any way helps your argument though unless you would suggest supporting smaller capitalists against larger ones whether it would be supporting Burger King against McDonalds, or Bob's Burger Bar against McDonalds.

Devrim

Well if you bring down the big enemy the smaller enemies will be less of a threat don't you think?

This is my main argument about the Syrian war thing and why I don't support America and whatever side America is on. America is the biggest capitalist nation, so naturally I'd support the lesser of two evils.

It's like Nazi Germany vs France or Poland, or some other capitalist nation. They're both bad but the Nazi's would be the worst/greater of two evils. So I would support whatever is against the biggest threat.


to be fair, i do boycot mcdonalds and sometimes eat at burger king, but thats just because mcdonals is gross as fuck..

I don't eat at those places mostly because it's so filled with chemicals and stuff and is bad for you. I think Burger king is a little more healthy. :)

[Devrim]

It's not just some country, it's the most fascist capitalist nation on earth.

The USA is obviously not a fascist country. The very idea is absurd.


The one nation that has been a natural enemy of the left ever since it was born.
America.

All nation states are enemies of communism and the working class.


If America has it's hands somewhere I'm 99.99% sure that they're up to no good.
You really think they're trying to "help" the working people of Syria? I'm actually curious on that answer.

Certainly the US is protecting its own interests, but I don't think that anybody has argued that they are trying to protect the interests of Syria.


Well if you bring down the big enemy the smaller enemies will be less of a threat don't you think?

Well no, that isn't how it works. Only a world communist revolution can bring down the imperialist system. If one imperialist power is defeated in a conflict, then another becomes more powerful.

There was a point when the UK was the world's leading power. In the first half of the 19th Century, it definitively lost that power. Did that lead to smaller enemies who were easier to defeat, or did it lead to the emergence of new super powers?


This is my main argument about the Syrian war thing and why I don't support America and whatever side America is on. America is the biggest capitalist nation, so naturally I'd support the lesser of two evils.

There is no lesser 'evil'. The choice is one capitalist state or the other. Certainly one of them can be less powerful, but not less capitalist.



It's like Nazi Germany vs France or Poland, or some other capitalist nation. They're both bad but the Nazi's would be the worst/greater of two evils. So I would support whatever is against the biggest threat.

To follow your argument that 'the US is the worst state in the world and has been since its birth' through its logical course, would you have supported the central powers in the First World War, or fascist Germany in the Second as both were fighting against "the most fascist capitalist nation on earth. The one nation that has been a natural enemy of the left ever since it was born"?

Devrim