Disillusionment: Your Tale

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Have any of you ever been disillusioned with Leftism, if so how what aspect did you become disillusioned with and how did you overcome said feelings?

Share your stories here.

[Ostrinski]

Not having access to political activity.

Realized that if I wasn't a leftist I'd feel kinda lost

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Oh yeah, i have regular disillusionment. Every time i see what the organisational situation of the European Left is, i get a headache. That's as far as my disillusionment goes.

[Le Socialiste]

I can't really point to a specific time when I experienced any kind of disillusionment, but I certainly went through periods of depression and frustration last Spring as I caught the tail-end of Occupy's degeneration and the more disorganized, ultra-left type activists who focused more on fighting the police instead of building a mass movement. I was grappling with conflicting views, undergoing political changes and newer understandings of theory and practice, all of which resulted in my abandonment of anarchism in favor of Marxism. That period was necessary though, I feel like those experiences brought me (more or less organically) to my current position. Our world requires a more nuanced, analytical approach to building up bases of mass, social, resistance - this question of organization is one that I have sought to tackle head-on ever since, as it really is an important question confronting today's left. So while I've yet to become disillusioned in the left, I've certainly had to deal with many of the frustrations and disappointments typically associated with it.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I'm tired of everyone sitting around debating about esoteric theories or masturbating over the corpses of long dead despots and not actually doing anything. The vast majority of these people are college students who look to leftism for a sense of belonging and not because they need an answer to their immediate economic situation.
Everyone would rather have ideological purity than a mass movement because Marxism for them is an exclusive role playing game and not a potential way out of a miserable existence.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I'm tired of everyone sitting around debating about esoteric theories or masturbating over the corpses of long dead despots and not actually doing anything. The vast majority of these people are college students who look to leftism for a sense of belonging and not because they need an answer to their immediate economic situation.
Everyone would rather have ideological purity than a mass movement because Marxism for them is an exclusive role playing game and not a potential way out of a miserable existence.

I share your sentiments but... how does this relate to the thread?

[Yuppie Grinder]

I share your sentiments but... how does this relate to the thread?

I'm explaining why I'm beginning to feel very disillusioned with the left.

[Crux]

I frequently feel disillusioned with what passes as the Left here in Sweden. Now I don't pretend that the organization I am with have the Holy Grail or anything, but at least there's a clear tactic and strategy, you know? Something which most of the left doesn't seem to get. And yeah, I know I sound like some kind of super-secterian now, but I've had up close interaction with most of the other left groups.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I'm explaining why I'm beginning to feel very disillusioned with the left.

ah, with me how I get over that is just reminding myself that what happens online is not a representation of the wider movement.For me getting outside and agitating usually helps.

[Crux]

ah, with me how I get over that is just reminding myself that what happens online is not a representation of the wider movement.For me getting outside and agitating usually helps.
This is very true.

[Igor]

For me the thing that helps overcome disillusionment is the fact that only option I really have to rev. leftist politics is plunging into nihilism which is really not something I want to do. There pretty much just is no return for me to liberal politics, i'm too deep in this shit

[Quail]

I sometimes feel quite disillusioned by the fact that a lot of the time people are all talk and no action. You try to organise, but all that ends up happening is people say they'll do something important and you never hear from them again.

[ed miliband]

kind of in opposition to what others have said, i dislike the fetishism of action for action's sake and the anti-intellectualism that often comes with that. this is particularly rampant amongst sections of the uk anarchist movement, and basically just leads to people doing stunts and moaning about how everyone else wants to sit around and read books. theory is important, organisation is important, practice is important; but doing something just to show that you are doing something is worthless, and it's just as much a form of role-playing as sitting around arguing about the value-form.

[Yuppie Grinder]

kind of in opposition to what others have said, i dislike the fetishism of action for action's sake and the anti-intellectualism that often comes with that. this is particularly rampant amongst sections of the uk anarchist movement, and basically just leads to people doing stunts and moaning about how everyone else wants to sit around and read books. theory is important, organisation is important, practice is important; but doing something just to show that you are doing something is worthless, and it's just as much a form of role-playing as sitting around arguing about the value-form.

I'm just as intolerant as trust-fundie crust punks and they're anarchist adventure poltics. Basically it's anyone who's interested in revolutionary leftism because they're looking for a sense of adventure and romantic rebellion and not because they're looking for a way to improve there present economic situation should just give up now because 10 years from now they'll be working for Goldman Sachs.

[Yuppie Grinder]

sorry if i sound prolier-than-thou

[Quail]

kind of in opposition to what others have said, i dislike the fetishism of action for action's sake and the anti-intellectualism that often comes with that. this is particularly rampant amongst sections of the uk anarchist movement, and basically just leads to people doing stunts and moaning about how everyone else wants to sit around and read books. theory is important, organisation is important, practice is important; but doing something just to show that you are doing something is worthless, and it's just as much a form of role-playing as sitting around arguing about the value-form.
I don't like action for action's sake either, but it's extremely disheartening when you put energy into say trying to set up a claimants' union and nothing happens because people are unreliable.

[The Jay]

sorry if i sound prolier-than-thou

You don't because I'm prolier than you.

I don't like that the left chastises the working class for their hobbies. I used to be one of those people and feel silly for wishing to change their personalities to suit my sensibilities. When you tell people that not only their entire surroundings (economic and social system) are the problem, but what they love is too, how are you going to convince anyone?

Any new movement that expects success must respect the people and their interests.

[ed miliband]

I don't like action for action's sake either, but it's extremely disheartening when you put energy into say trying to set up a claimants' union and nothing happens because people are unreliable.

yup, i know what you're getting at and to an extent i share similar frustrations. sorry if it seemed like my post was specifically directed at you.

my bit about the british anarchist movement was really about class war and the groups that have since emerged from their ashes, who will chastise afed and solfed as "do nothings" and then claim the problem with anarchism in the uk is everyone (read: afed and solfed) is so sectarian.

[Raúl Duke]

These days, I'm disillusioned with a lot of things.

Concerning the left...
I'm going to be honest but all the Stalinists. Hoxhaists, et.al disillusioned me; especially those who seem to spend most of the time "defending" the indefensible and presently useless "legacy" and try to pass the idea that a re-run of the USSR will actually work when we all know it ended in collapse. Stalinism will never be big in most parts of the world, particularly where I live; such wasted potential plus there existence probably only serve to perpetuate the negative stereotypes of the Left. I don't really want to offend anyone personally on here in particular, but this is how I feel.

Now to more salient part, a lot of it is its weakness, apparent inability to address the general public, a sort of insularity, etc.

Another problem, which I think is perhaps more common in the US than say the UK but I might be wrong, is that there are quite a few anarchists who have dead-end ideas, stupid beliefs, etc to the point that most of us here wouldn't even actually consider them anarchists. I've literally met this 2 people who claims to be anarchists yet pals around with libertarians and holds these market ideas that are anathema to anarchists. Personally, I think its due to American misunderstanding of anarchism as simply an "anti-state" ideology when it's more than that and most anarchists, on this site, I suspect consider capitalism to be the public enemy #1 more than the state which is only just a symptomatic institution inherent in capitalism/classis societies.

Than we got people with such a pledged commitment to non-violence it's extremely silly. I was reading a Chris Hedges article (I know he's probably not a leftist, just an activist or a sympathizer of progressive causes) which was all about the "need to revolt" and he ends it with "we need to commit to non-violence" and goes off quoting Vaclav Havel. To that, I thought of what someone in the black power movement of the 60s said, [paraphrasing] "non-violence is worthless if your enemy has no conscious." Which, I say, the financial elites have none and are not afraid of non-violent masses.

Plus, my experience with Occupy in Ft.Myers was quite disillusioning movement/activist-wise. I've met some non-politically aligned people who were genuinely interested in actual change without following some cliche program (vote Ron Paul, and what-not) and were actually quite receptive to my critiques about the problems, these critiques having a anti-capitalist bent and sometimes even explicitly anarchist hues. But as soon as you start an all-inclusive movement like that you get all these crazies and also "career activists" hijacking the shit out of it and drowning out the normal guy who may be open to radical change with their not-radical solutions and their very weak practice of non-violence to the point where it ain't even civil disobedience but basically down-right capitulating. These activist need to stop thinking that waving signs around and backing down from police,etc actually empowers anyone or does anything; the elites are not afraid of signs and non-violence and regular people are certainly not impress nor want to waste their time waving signs for nothing.

Now, about the general American public, one problem I noted particularly in Florida is the misinformation, ignorance, etc of most people. It's not so bad with certain kinds of young people, particularly those who from what I observe came from a "middle-class" or working-class background whose family have faced harsh economic times (particularly with the mortgage) and they themselves have little future in this area and work shitty service or tele-market/customerservice/survey minimum wage jobs and usually are not in college, have had a gap between high school to college, or whatever.

[Ele'ill]

Whenever, 100% of the time this happens, someone is speaking or writing about the left and their position is ok, it's non-liberal anyways, and then they end it with 'it must be non-violent'. I find that position to be poisonous in its limitations and if nothing else way to ambiguous given what people think 'violence' is.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm tired of everyone sitting around debating about esoteric theories or masturbating over the corpses of long dead despots and not actually doing anything. The vast majority of these people are college students who look to leftism for a sense of belonging and not because they need an answer to their immediate economic situation.

Forgetting about the college students part of that comment for a moment, doesn't not having any perceived bond to anything and feeling totally isolated link back to one's socio-economic environment? I think the appeal of all political mass movements, communism included, rests partially on a certain sense of community, actually.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm explaining why I'm beginning to feel very disillusioned with the left.

Don't worry, our time will come. I share the same feeling, especially with some 'soft-left' types and with some 'Stalinnnnnnnnnnn' tankies, the former often being typical hippy liberals, the latter getting into Stalin because the USSR had a cool anthem on some RPG game they found online or whatever.

But then I think, even if my personal political situation is crap, and my personal economic situation not much better, Marx's theory of capitalism and its periodic crises, its imperialism and subsequent future degeneration under the weight of its contradictions is as true today as it was when he wrote it, and many members of the bourgeoisie even, invoke Marx in their commentary on various economic crises, even if they don't advocate his prescription as a cure. What this means is that Capitalism will die, it's not an historic inevitability, but there's clear reason to understand, from an economic perspective, why Capitalism is not sustainable as a mode of production.

It doesn't depress me that I don't expect to see it's full demise in my lifetime, tbh, from a political perspective (though of course it would be pretty useful if it did, from a personal economic perspective!).

[Zostrianos]

My disillusionment is not with the leftist movement itself, but is mainly with modern society and people's stupidity: true leftist parties never have any success in elections, because people usually vote for center or rightist parties. And most people aren't interested in a better society or revolution - as long as they have their sports, tv, and superficial distractions they're happy in their ignorance, which makes the chances for revolution very slim indeed.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

One thing in specific bothers/has bothered me.

Once technological advancement reaches a certain level, capitalism will become completely unsustainable, and inevitably collapse by means of what would essentially be the bourgeoisie's self-liquidation. Looking at it, there are some flaws in that, though, and I don't think capitalism will sustain itself until we reach that point...

That and also that some of the left embrace anti-scientific ideas... I'm also an anti-theist and emphasize the protection of science by society. It frustrates me to see when leftists embrace anti-scientific attitudes. This is much more of an issue with the right-wing obviously though.

[black magick hustla]

people who whine about people doing nothing. people who think they became communist cuz ur bearded factory coworker slammed ur head with Das Kapital

[bcbm]

i became disillusioned when i realized literally everyone on the left is a weirdo hobbyist who cant and never will be able to relate to real people. i have never come back from this disillusionment

[Positivist]

The lack of will to just shut the fuck up and get together and start doing things. Don't get me wrong, I understand that its important to have a solid theoretical framework of what actions will have what consequences, under what conditions, and that open debate is necessary to determine this, but setting up this framework isn't worth shit if we don't start acting on it. I don't understand why there isn't more urgency to get into mutual aid, and alternative recreational organizations, and striking, and protesting, or whatever. Maybe some won't work, but how can they hurt? How could a food bank diminish revolutionary potential? How could a cheap cooperative baseball league or cooking club threaten workers self-emacipation? How does shouting in front of a bunch of financial offices discourage support of the left? Sure I have my doubts about some, but what harm is there in trying. Maybe they just might work. More than one of these certainly has amassed quite a bit of loyalty to socialist parties in the past, and others are a good way to rally disgruntled working people into solidarity with one another. I'm just tired of people thinking that when I say I'm left, I must be a democrat and that all I need is less expensive healthcare to live a full and happy life. We need a real movement to represent the real interests of the working class, and to unite workers in mass struggle, and cooperation to fulfilled these interests. Sorry about the rant.

[Камо́ Зэд]

I'm very disillusioned with much of the Left over anti-Stalinist attitudes. The worst of it isn't that anti-Stalinist arguments against Marxism-Leninism consistently lack much critical examination of history and theory, although that is quite true of them; it's that they're incessant. Anti-Stalinist attitudes behave much in the same way creationist attitudes do: quite literally every argument ever formulated from that point of view has been laughably weak at best, but the position perpetuates itself by attempting to drown out criticism through sheer volume. The method is one of flooding the proverbial market, not with developing sound theory. This method can typically manifest as a compulsive need to have the last word.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Don't worry, our time will come. I share the same feeling, especially with some 'soft-left' types and with some 'Stalinnnnnnnnnnn' tankies, the former often being typical hippy liberals, the latter getting into Stalin because the USSR had a cool anthem on some RPG game they found online or whatever.

But then I think, even if my personal political situation is crap, and my personal economic situation not much better, Marx's theory of capitalism and its periodic crises, its imperialism and subsequent future degeneration under the weight of its contradictions is as true today as it was when he wrote it, and many members of the bourgeoisie even, invoke Marx in their commentary on various economic crises, even if they don't advocate his prescription as a cure. What this means is that Capitalism will die, it's not an historic inevitability, but there's clear reason to understand, from an economic perspective, why Capitalism is not sustainable as a mode of production.

It doesn't depress me that I don't expect to see it's full demise in my lifetime, tbh, from a political perspective (though of course it would be pretty useful if it did, from a personal economic perspective!).

But it is! As long as humanity continues to survive and its productive forces continue to advance, the collapse of Capitalism is inevitable. The advance of the productive forces of labor spell periodic crises of profitability, but the advance of the productive forces of material production by labor, spells its inevitable historical demise, or rather, its inability to reproduce material production and keep humankind itself alive. We are now at that point in fact, the rate of profit of the production process is at a historical low of 0%, and given that all parts of the human world have been capitalised upon, Capitalism does not have any more markets to invest in and extend its stay with this low rate of profit.

This is no mystical, "economistic" or quick written hoax. It was the scientific analysis of Rosa Luxemburg on the basis of Karl Marx's theory of the falling rate of profit, and is now near to empirical fact as we see the industrial production of the advanced capitalist countries only surviving through socialism... for the rich.

"The revolutionary optimism stems from the objective laws of the development of society. Capitalism is an order condemned by history to liquidation. Nothing, neither the frenzied resistance of the Bourgeoisie nor the treachery of modern revisionists can save it from its inevitable doom. The future belongs to Socialism and Communism" - Enver Hoxha.

[Crux]

I'm very disillusioned with much of the Left over anti-Stalinist attitudes. The worst of it isn't that anti-Stalinist arguments against Marxism-Leninism consistently lack much critical examination of history and theory, although that is quite true of them; it's that they're incessant. Anti-Stalinist attitudes behave much in the same way creationist attitudes do: quite literally every argument ever formulated from that point of view has been laughably weak at best, but the position perpetuates itself by attempting to drown out criticism through sheer volume. The method is one of flooding the proverbial market, not with developing sound theory.
Funny, that's one of the things that gives me hope. But that's probably pretty unsuprising, whereas you have a picture of Stalin as your avatar, I have one of a swedish volunteer to the red armies airforce, who was lucky enough to get out of russia before most of the international communists residing there found themselves in labour camps. Isn't it interesting how perspectives can be so different? But potayto, potahto, eh?

[Yuppie Grinder]

i became disillusioned when i realized literally everyone on the left is a weirdo hobbyist who cant and never will be able to relate to real people. i have never come back from this disillusionment

I may be a freaky weirdo, but I am also seen as polite and agreeable by people generally.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=Workers-Control-Over-Prod;2507434]But it is! As long as humanity continues to survive and its productive forces continue to advance, the collapse of Capitalism is inevitable. The advance of the productive forces of labor spell periodic crises of profitability, but the advance of the productive forces of material production by labor, spells its inevitable historical demise, or rather, its inability to reproduce material production and keep humankind itself alive. We are now at that point in fact, the rate of profit of the production process is at a historical low of 0%, and given that all parts of the human world have been capitalised upon, Capitalism does not have any more markets to invest in and extend its stay with this low rate of profit.

The first part is probably right, but it is disingenuous to use the word 'inevitable' and makes us sound like some weird sort of foretelling cult. It's the logical conclusion that one day (sooner or later) capitalism will collapse under its own contradictions; that's different to it being inevitable.

The second part is correct only in the analysis of individual, closed economies. It of course has a lot of truth to it, and you're certainly right that industrial capitalism in the already-developed countries is dead, we moved to financial capitalism long ago, where profits are created out of thin air using fiat money and clever accounting methods, not simply returns on capital investment and the exploitation of labour as it was under the industrial capitalism of before the 1970s.


This is no mystical, "economistic" or quick written hoax. It was the scientific analysis of Rosa Luxemburg on the basis of Karl Marx's theory of the falling rate of profit, and is now near to empirical fact as we see the industrial production of the advanced capitalist countries only surviving through socialism... for the rich.

As I say above, there's more than a grain of truth to what you say, but Capitalism was once a revolutionary system precisely because in its maturity, it was innovative, ingenious (for its time) and based around the profit motive, not around national economic growth a la mercantilism. What you ignore is the impact of imperialism, and the further scope for imperialism. I've noticed several times you analyse the falling rate of profit in relation to domestic (and iirc regional) industrial production. This fails to account for the abandonment of industrial capitalism decades ago. Most profits are plucked from thin air (almost literally) via speculation, rent-seeking activities and imperial plunder. These three are certainly not healthy, not reliable, stable nor sustainable ways to turn a profit, so I do believe your strong belief in marrying the falling rate of profit (which, you are correct, is undeniable) to industrial production data has some merit, but i'd advise that it's too simplistic to draw grand conclusions from. Rather, you need to build a model that deals with the rate of profit turned from speculation, rent-seeking and imperialism. An all encompassing model of labour war, financial war and imperial war, if you will, rather than just labour war (industrial profit via labour exploitation).


"The revolutionary optimism stems from the objective laws of the development of society. Capitalism is an order condemned by history to liquidation. Nothing, neither the frenzied resistance of the Bourgeoisie nor the treachery of modern revisionists can save it from its inevitable doom. The future belongs to Socialism and Communism" - Enver Hoxha.

All pretty correct, but the last sentence, again, should not be treated as an inevitability.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm very disillusioned with much of the Left over anti-Stalinist attitudes. The worst of it isn't that anti-Stalinist arguments against Marxism-Leninism consistently lack much critical examination of history and theory, although that is quite true of them; it's that they're incessant. Anti-Stalinist attitudes behave much in the same way creationist attitudes do: quite literally every argument ever formulated from that point of view has been laughably weak at best, but the position perpetuates itself by attempting to drown out criticism through sheer volume. The method is one of flooding the proverbial market, not with developing sound theory. This method can typically manifest as a compulsive need to have the last word.

You're disillusioned with Socialism, a materialist ideology, because most people dislike one man.

Right. :rolleyes:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sure, the gap between what I know is possible and what our forces are and where the class is can be a real bummer sometimes. Generally being in an organization has helped me deal with ups and downs in specific movements or coalitions I've been a part of, but even then it was depressing to go from Occupy Oakland shutting down the port and having wide community support to decline and then having the usual bickering cliques that remain when a movement looses any ability to do anything or achieve broader appeal.

I think it's important to have balance. There are times to throw all your energy into something but it's important to keep the larger view and know that there are no short-cuts to working class self-emancipation and that rebuilding some consciousness and fight-back is a long process (that occasionally kicks into high-gear).

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

[QUOTE]

The first part is probably right, but it is disingenuous to use the word 'inevitable' and makes us sound like some weird sort of foretelling cult. It's the logical conclusion that one day (sooner or later) capitalism will collapse under its own contradictions; that's different to it being inevitable.

The second part is correct only in the analysis of individual, closed economies. It of course has a lot of truth to it, and you're certainly right that industrial capitalism in the already-developed countries is dead, we moved to financial capitalism long ago, where profits are created out of thin air using fiat money and clever accounting methods, not simply returns on capital investment and the exploitation of labour as it was under the industrial capitalism of before the 1970s.



As I say above, there's more than a grain of truth to what you say, but Capitalism was once a revolutionary system precisely because in its maturity, it was innovative, ingenious (for its time) and based around the profit motive, not around national economic growth a la mercantilism. What you ignore is the impact of imperialism, and the further scope for imperialism. I've noticed several times you analyse the falling rate of profit in relation to domestic (and iirc regional) industrial production. This fails to account for the abandonment of industrial capitalism decades ago. Most profits are plucked from thin air (almost literally) via speculation, rent-seeking activities and imperial plunder. These three are certainly not healthy, not reliable, stable nor sustainable ways to turn a profit, so I do believe your strong belief in marrying the falling rate of profit (which, you are correct, is undeniable) to industrial production data has some merit, but i'd advise that it's too simplistic to draw grand conclusions from. Rather, you need to build a model that deals with the rate of profit turned from speculation, rent-seeking and imperialism. An all encompassing model of labour war, financial war and imperial war, if you will, rather than just labour war (industrial profit via labour exploitation).

.

All pretty correct, but the last sentence, again, should not be treated as an inevitability.

No, the thing is that we now have a global Capitalism, all existing economies with the fall of the socialist block and Capitalism's advance in China, have been capitalised upon. I don't look at isolated national economies when "predicting" the downward economic trend of capitalism, but it is inevitable that (regardless of whether or not there is international or national Capitalism) industrial profitability will have a near to constant historical fall. Once national industry goes, so does the 1/3 of modern capitalist economies which rely on the material production of goods, the Reality business needs material production for houses, banks need companies and insurance companies need cutomers who have a job and income.

Having massive new markets introduced to global capital (so many that the already existing production markets become a proportion of the new overall markets) would mean an increased profitability of production, as was the case in the internet/computer boom of the 90's and the massive privatisation of the socialist countries. But that does not exist anymore, capital has no where to expand to now, a new boom as with the computer industry is not forseeable, and we now have 3D printers. Capitalism is over, it has been over for 10 years and is state corporate socialism for the rich. Only the historically unprecedented low central bank interest rates, unprecedented trillions in stimulus packages, huge corporate/rich tax cuts, extended subsidies, stagnation of workers wages since decades and lowering of average workers real wages the last 4 years; are keeping capitalism going at some 0.6% quarterly industrial production growth for the USA and even more disastrously low numbers for the high rider "competitive" countries of northern Europe, with Germany going at 0.5% quarterly GDP growth.

Capitalism as a viable economic system, is over. If you really look what is keeping the advanced capitalist countries going, it is massive state subsidisation and incredible socialisation of losses, state taking on of private debts. If you look at this graph here, it's quite clear what is up with Capitalism.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/fredgraph.png?&id=INDPRO&scale=Left&range=Max&cosd=1919-01-01&coed=2012-07-01&line_color=%230000ff&link_values=false&line_style=Solid&mark_type=NONE&mw=4&lw=1&ost=-99999&oet=99999&mma=0&fml=a&fq=Monthly&fam=avg&fgst=lin&transformation=lin&vintage_date=2012-09-09&revision_date=2012-09-09
EDIT: Note that the Great Depression was not nearly as extreme as this industrial crisis.

[The Douche]

I joined the army when I got burnt out. Top that.

[rednordman]

I would say simply other people. The general population is completely bombarded with propaganda and they don't realize, so there is no chance from the off. But also other leftist sections too. They seem a little too insensitive to some peoples values and cultures, and to how difficult it is for some people who are dead set in their ways to make a change in mindset.

Also on the note of other leftist faction, how they seem to agree with all the Nazi/western cold war/ capitalist and libertarian views/propaganda about the USSR, simply for the sake of their own spite. I don't think that it was a nice place at all, but some of the shit that get touted by anarchists/left-communists and troskyists is rather daft imo..and no i'm not a "Stalinist" either for that matter.

[Ravachol]

I'm tired of everyone sitting around debating about esoteric theories or masturbating over the corpses of long dead despots and not actually doing anything. The vast majority of these people are college students who look to leftism for a sense of belonging and not because they need an answer to their immediate economic situation.
Everyone would rather have ideological purity than a mass movement because Marxism for them is an exclusive role playing game and not a potential way out of a miserable existence.

I agree with you and how much of 'leftism' (which I don't identify with tbh) sometimes amounts to pure identity politics but I think as communists we should be able to look at why and how such milieus are produced. I don't think it's fair to dismiss the lack of 'a sense of belonging' (which is really only one part of general alienation) because it doesn't fit within the bounds of crude economism (ie. if there's bread on your table and a roof above your head, don't complain!).


i became disillusioned when i realized literally everyone on the left is a weirdo hobbyist who cant and never will be able to relate to real people. i have never come back from this disillusionment

That might be true (though a lot of anarchists I know don't fit that stereotype really), then again I've found all other 'real people' are also completely incapable of relating to other 'real people' and are simply more capable of holding on to their masks. Seems like we face death alone man.


As for me, I don't think there's much i'm not disillusioned with. I don't find it that depressing or driving towards conformity though, quite the contrary. It's rather liberating actually. Disillusionment with everything from society and it's mores to what passes for 'the left' and it's credo of BUILD THE PARTY! SELL THE PAPER! leaves room for reorienting oneself to the application of revolutionary thought to our immediate lives. After all, we have but one life and I think the most 'revolutionary' thing an individual can do (as opposed to the proletariat self-negating) is grabbing it by the throat, shaking the most out of it, something that implies revolt. Not having the chains of society and the left around your neck helps in this regard.

[L.A.P.]

Now, about the general American public, one problem I noted particularly in Florida is the misinformation, ignorance, etc of most people. It's not so bad with certain kinds of young people, particularly those who from what I observe came from a "middle-class" or working-class background whose family have faced harsh economic times (particularly with the mortgage) and they themselves have little future in this area and work shitty service or tele-market/customerservice/survey minimum wage jobs and usually are not in college, have had a gap between high school to college, or whatever.

there really is quite an experience to gain from living in a place particularly as shitty as Southwest Florida. After spending my whole childhood here, i've realized this is a really bizarre and decadent place.

[Sea]

I joined the army when I got burnt out. Top that.
Only one army? Pfffft.

[Raúl Duke]

there really is quite an experience to gain from living in a place particularly as shitty as Southwest Florida. After spending my whole childhood here, i've realized this is a really bizarre and decadent place.

Well, they were the most receptive towards radical anti-capitalism and stuff...although they were all seemingly influenced by punk/hardcore for the most part it seems. Many fit the bill for the "workaholics" type character as well.

The Paultards and "career activist types" were mostly dorks and I usually avoid them like the plague.

I've literally over-hear people in random public places talk of non-sense like "Obama is going to take our guns and give them to the UN" and what-not...ugh
Personally, people in Puerto Rico are not so smart but at least they won't talk this non-sense conspiracy theory. I don't understand how the Americans manage to have this global empire if they're all so dumb (and so proud to the point of hubris too; something that even their leaders share and I say will be the downfall of the whole lot of them, all you 'mericans.)

This is a shitty, bizarre, and decadent place for sure.

[Камо́ Зэд]

I'm very disillusioned with much of the Left over anti-Stalinist attitudes. The worst of it isn't that anti-Stalinist arguments against Marxism-Leninism consistently lack much critical examination of history and theory, although that is quite true of them; it's that they're incessant. Anti-Stalinist attitudes behave much in the same way creationist attitudes do: quite literally every argument ever formulated from that point of view has been laughably weak at best, but the position perpetuates itself by attempting to drown out criticism through sheer volume. The method is one of flooding the proverbial market, not with developing sound theory. This method can typically manifest as a compulsive need to have the last word.


You're disillusioned with Socialism, a materialist ideology, because most people dislike one man.

Right. :rolleyes:

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Not sure if you're trolling.

I was making quite a basic point. Stalin =/= Socialism. Socialism's fortunes, today and in the future, do not rise and fall with the reputation of Stalin. I think you need to understand that, because it sounds to me as though you don't really understand Socialism at all, tovarisch.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Not sure if you're trolling.

I was making quite a basic point. Stalin =/= Socialism. Socialism's fortunes, today and in the future, do not rise and fall with the reputation of Stalin. I think you need to understand that, because it sounds to me as though you don't really understand Socialism at all, tovarisch.

Comrade, the point you make about Stalin's relation to socialism is no less wise for the fact that it doesn't address anything I've posted. Socialism is not an inherently materialistic way of looking at the world; this isn't a common trait between scientific socialism and utopian socialism. However, let me draw your attention to the fact that nowhere did I say I was disillusioned with socialism (much less Marxist socialism); I'm disillusioned with the Left as a culture of transformational thinking. Note further that my reason for disillusionment had to do with the intellectually dishonest and impoverished method of perpetuating certain attitudes, and I compared this method to that of creationists. The problem isn't in the conclusion alone; the problem is in the method.

To add one more thing that has disillusioned me, I have been here for a short while, but my posts will demonstrate that I have a very sound understanding of Marxism and its history. Other RevLeft members seem to think so, right up until the point at which we disagree on something, in which case I am now an "idealist" or else I "don't really understand socialism." The arrogance of it is unfit for any debate or exchange of ideas. Petty condescension is the tactic of fascists and fundamentalists; I should expect more than that here.

[maskerade]

Hmm...where do I begin? i became disillusioned the first time I went to a meeting for the Youth Left Party in Sweden and they explicitly told us to always listen to the police and respect the law, to not engage with other leftist groups because they are 'undemocratic', and when I brought up these things I was silenced because 'we need to be taken seriously'. After that the people from my local group only ever called me when it was time to pay my membership fee.

Not that I cared about that - the local group was just a clique of friends who watched leftist movies together and only had an internal outlook. These events weren't for people that weren't members or those who would be potentially interested, they were for the people who seemingly already knew everything and each other and didn't need anything else.

Then it's the fact that even though everything is shit - and it is - the system we have now is so deeply ingrained and immersed into every aspect of society that I just think that it's impossible. so much work to do, so little time, and such unpleasant people to do the work with

[#FF0000]

i stopped being so disillusioned when i started actually working w/ real people so

give that a shot i guess

[rednordman]

Oh and also hate the fact that people in the UK generally are complete spineless bootlickers too. Talk about 'living on your knees'.

[Ravachol]

i stopped being so disillusioned when i started actually working w/ real people so

give that a shot i guess

Who are these 'real people' everyone in this thread is referring to and where is their magical paradise free of alienation? I'm puzzled :p

[cynicles]

Never, my parent's we're and are working class(unionized), my sister aswell, I've been involved for a long time in the fight against anti-native racism, anti-LGBT and for poverty rights both as it pertains to me, my friends and people around me directly. I live this life and I can think of no other politics to engage in that would help. If you feel like it's a role playing game then fine, what do I care? Just don't pop up a few years later with some condescending bullshit about "I've grown up" or I'll take a crowbar to your face.

[ed miliband]

this blog. this fucking blog:

http://www.socialistunity.com/

pretty much why i no longer consider myself a socialist.

[Igor]

this blog. this fucking blog:

http://www.socialistunity.com/

pretty much why i no longer consider myself a socialist.

lol @ 2nd and 3rd most recent stories being "in defence of george galloway" and "time for the left to stand up for george galloway"

hooo boy

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

lol @ 2nd and 3rd most recent stories being "in defence of george galloway" and "time for the left to stand up for george galloway"

hooo boy

I would list George as one of my reasons for disillusionament with the British left. Respect are generally considered to be the 2nd biggest 'left' party in the UK in terms of members / votes or what have you and they have George as there poster boy.
The first is considered to be Labour, i know i know, but they are considered 'left' or identify themselves as such...which is annoying because socialists still join or support them giving some credance to the idea that they are left wing..when they're not.

Right, I'm rambling now and not constructing my thoughts very articulately but basically disillusioned because it feels like there are a load of 'parties' within the socialist / communist tradition and it never feels like we're getting anywhere, that the working class as a whole is getting mobilised, that capital's grip will ever be suitably challenged in any way...just feels hopeless..

And then there's George and Ken and other suited grinning tossers acting like they're the brave outsiders fighting the good fight...fuck sake!!

[cynicles]

lol @ 2nd and 3rd most recent stories being "in defence of george galloway" and "time for the left to stand up for george galloway"

hooo boy
That blog is just cringe-a-licious.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Never, my parent's we're and are working class(unionized), my sister aswell, I've been involved for a long time in the fight against anti-native racism, anti-LGBT and for poverty rights both as it pertains to me, my friends and people around me directly. I live this life and I can think of no other politics to engage in that would help. If you feel like it's a role playing game then fine, what do I care? Just don't pop up a few years later with some condescending bullshit about "I've grown up" or I'll take a crowbar to your face.

I don't really get this, are you insinuating that if one embroils themselves in left-wing activism and comes from a working class background, that they'll never be disillusioned? Because that's kind of what it sounds like, with everything that came after the word "never". It might pertain to you specifically, as in you personally never are disillusioned, but the idea that somehow being an activist and having your activism directly pertain to your economic position prevents disillusionment is definitely not true in all cases.

Take the authors of "Nihilist Communism" for example, which is often cited approvingly by the "anti-activist left": the authors were proletarian postal workers who had been involved in left-wing activism for many years, before being completely and utterly burnt out and disillusioned. Sometimes I get the feeling that some people on this site think that disillusionment only comes about by "not being deep enough in this shit". :rolleyes:

[Nox]

Lately I've been going through a very rough patch in regards to my Leftist beliefs. I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm beginning to doubt the realisticness of it all. It seems too good to be true, and I am beginning to doubt that a large-scale Anarchist (or even Marxist) revolution will ever happen in today's or even tomorrow's society.

I guess I'm still technically an Anarchist because I support the ideology, I just have little/no faith in it.

[La Comédie Noire]

I never get disillusioned per say, but sometimes I can't escape the feeling the left is full of people who never got tired of raising their hand in class and hearing the sound of their own voice.

[Igor]

I never get disillusioned per say, but sometimes I can't escape the feeling the left is full of people who never got tired of raising their hand in class and hearing the sound of their own voice.

that's true but in the other hand, pretty much every political organization ever attracts those guys, left or right

[citizen of industry]

When people see the union as a cheap help center, don't join until they have a problem, convince the union to fight for them with their sob story, then take off after getting a favorable resolution. Or, spend a year building up a local in secret, work out all the demands, set the date to declare and start the fight, and watch as people jump ship days before the declaration date, fucking over everyone else in the local, then spewing capitalist rhetoric because it is the only thing they can do to justify their cowardice. Cowardice which is completely unwarranted because everything is legal anyway. Or just the drain of fighting a dispute for many years with a minority, when all it takes is a majority and a few days to win. Then trying to work as a labor fraction simultaneously and push the dedicated members of the union left, who consistently fight capital on a daily basis but resort to spewing capitalist rhetoric when it comes to the political struggle. And realizing that the failures of the 20th century coupled with the propaganda machine are quite the hurdle to jump over. But anyway, the class struggle reproduces communists. They'll never get rid of us.

[Zealot]

Lately I've been going through a very rough patch in regards to my Leftist beliefs. I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm beginning to doubt the realisticness of it all. It seems too good to be true, and I am beginning to doubt that a large-scale Anarchist (or even Marxist) revolution will ever happen in today's or even tomorrow's society.

I guess I'm still technically an Anarchist because I support the ideology, I just have little/no faith in it.

Well, we've never made it a secret that Communism is a long-term project that would take decades, perhaps centuries, to achieve on a global scale. If you're beginning to doubt that revolution will take place "today" or "tomorrow" then we can only share your doubts. To think that we are now living at the "End of History", as Francis Fukuyama once ridiculously claimed, is simply stupid and obviously doesn't conform to the Marxist conception of history, much less our entire known history in general, which has undergone so many changes.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I never get disillusioned per say, but sometimes I can't escape the feeling the left is full of people who never got tired of raising their hand in class and hearing the sound of their own voice.
This! And it´s remarkable how pretentious these people can sound. Like ignorant folks trying to sound smart.

Never, my parent's we're and are working class(unionized), my sister aswell, I've been involved for a long time in the fight against anti-native racism, anti-LGBT and for poverty rights both as it pertains to me, my friends and people around me directly. I live this life and I can think of no other politics to engage in that would help. If you feel like it's a role playing game then fine, what do I care? Just don't pop up a few years later with some condescending bullshit about "I've grown up" or I'll take a crowbar to your face.
I never got the feeling my own political involvement was a role playing game. I´ve always been quite sincere in my politics. The problem was plenty of activists around me and "comrades" of mine always coming off as if it was all a role playing game to them. The left is full of charlatans with shitty politics. In one way or other they are bound to foster feelings of disillusionment among us honest communists.

[cynicles]

I don't really get this, are you insinuating that if one embroils themselves in left-wing activism and comes from a working class background, that they'll never be disillusioned? Because that's kind of what it sounds like, with everything that came after the word "never". It might pertain to you specifically, as in you personally never are disillusioned, but the idea that somehow being an activist and having your activism directly pertain to your economic position prevents disillusionment is definitely not true in all cases.

Take the authors of "Nihilist Communism" for example, which is often cited approvingly by the "anti-activist left": the authors were proletarian postal workers who had been involved in left-wing activism for many years, before being completely and utterly burnt out and disillusioned. Sometimes I get the feeling that some people on this site think that disillusionment only comes about by "not being deep enough in this shit". :rolleyes:
Uhhh no, I was saying that aswell as everything else I listed played apart in me coming to and staying on the left. Are you just making stuff up to be confrontational?

[Veovis]

My problem isn't with leftism itself, but I find the fact that our society is so atomized that it's so hard to organize - even more so than years ago, I'd reckon - so very disillusioning.

[L.A.P.]

Well, they were the most receptive towards radical anti-capitalism and stuff...although they were all seemingly influenced by punk/hardcore for the most part it seems. Many fit the bill for the "workaholics" type character as well.

The Paultards and "career activist types" were mostly dorks and I usually avoid them like the plague.

I've literally over-hear people in random public places talk of non-sense like "Obama is going to take our guns and give them to the UN" and what-not...ugh
Personally, people in Puerto Rico are not so smart but at least they won't talk this non-sense conspiracy theory. I don't understand how the Americans manage to have this global empire if they're all so dumb (and so proud to the point of hubris too; something that even their leaders share and I say will be the downfall of the whole lot of them, all you 'mericans.)

This is a shitty, bizarre, and decadent place for sure.

Man, I just go to school with a bunch of rich and upper middle class kids. So my experience has always been nice working class and upper middle class kids who either have absolutely no consciousness or just complete apathy. And then there's the upper middle class and rich kids who have good lives ahead of them in northeastern universities who are generally pretty shitty. Nothing is quite as hilarious as listening to an AP class full of these kids talk about social issues. I could honestly go on for over two hours about why Southwest Florida is such a shitty place.

[Raúl Duke]

Man, I just go to school with a bunch of rich and upper middle class kids. So my experience has always been nice working class and upper middle class kids who either have absolutely no consciousness or just complete apathy. And then there's the upper middle class and rich kids who have good lives ahead of them in northeastern universities who are generally pretty shitty. Nothing is quite as hilarious as listening to an AP class full of these kids talk about social issues. I could honestly go on for over two hours about why Southwest Florida is such a shitty place.

Reminds me of FGCU, for the most part, although even there you can meet some knowledgeable characters particularly among older (20+) commuting students and within certain majors.

But I usually hang out with people who live near/around downtown who all seem to belong to the "declining middle class" segment (think the people with underwater mortgages and big debts, living in areas that became ghettoes when the housing bubble popped like Lehigh, and/or etc). There's some apathy and a bit of "just getting by" mentality but if you criticize the rich and capitalism they seem to more likely to agree than the brainwashed people in FGCU.

In other words, they're open to radicalism or some are already kinda radical but not very open to actually doing anything (at least not any of the usual activist stuff, which they probably view as a waste of time; than again I might be on the same boat I haven't been active in anything for like 1-2 years except a bit of Occupy)...perhaps only if the revolution/etc explodes.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I often feel disillusioned with the Left. I feel like the struggle is so hopeless sometimes that I just want to give up. The state can use whatever tool it wants against us and we can't do anything to stop them. It feels like we're fighting with our hands tied.

The fact that communism is so unpopular also bothers me. I can't even admit that I'm a communist. No one will take you seriously. Leftists keep saying that only material conditions can lead to consciousness, but I see so many people struggling while singing the praises of capitalism. It gives me a really low opinion of the working class. I know it isn't their fault, but I can't help but think "These people are fucking stupid, they can rot for all I care." Once again, I know this is extremely irrational, but it's very discouraging none the less.

Despite all of this, I can't go back. I would feel like I was living a lie. I can't just ignore everything I know now.

Sometimes I like to remind myself of our past victories, or I listen to those old songs about unions and revolution. That always gets me optimistic for a bit.

[L.A.P.]

Reminds me of FGCU, for the most part, although even there you can meet some knowledgeable characters particularly among older (20+) commuting students and within certain majors.

Yeah, from what I know, the FGCU scene are just typical wishy-washy liberal quasi-hippies at best. At worst, they're filthy elitist conservatives and libertarians.


But I usually hang out with people who live near/around downtown who all seem to belong to the "declining middle class" segment (think the people with underwater mortgages and big debts, living in areas that became ghettoes when the housing bubble popped like Lehigh, and/or etc). There's some apathy and a bit of "just getting by" mentality but if you criticize the rich and capitalism they seem to more likely to agree than the brainwashed people in FGCU.

So downtown Ft. Myers, huh? I'm usually in Golden Gate and North Naples. Golden Gate is just a concentration of service-industry workers filled with apathy and social alienation, while North Naples-for the most part-is a string of gated communities filled with weird/dysfunctional rich people of all types. One of my favorite examples are people from Nassau County, they always act like a mix between wannabe mobsters (in the sense they always go to jail for something involving drugs/partying and fetishizing guns/fighting) and house wives of new jersey. I've gotten to the point where I look at people like that now and constantly think "you're such a waste of resource".


In other words, they're open to radicalism or some are already kinda radical but not very open to actually doing anything (at least not any of the usual activist stuff, which they probably view as a waste of time; than again I might be on the same boat I haven't been active in anything for like 1-2 years except a bit of Occupy)...perhaps only if the revolution/etc explodes.

Yeah, the situation definetely seems hopeless here as there are no means to organize, which I think is actually more having to do with that this region is apt for social isolation. That's actually been my gripe with this place long before I was even a communist, this town (down to the very geography of it) is incredibly anti-social. This is just a resort-colony for the powerful.

[Raúl Duke]

So downtown Ft. Myers, huh

Well, not exactly like right in the middle of it; the immediate area is mostly fancy apartments and condos. A bit further out (yet close enough that you could bike, even walk, to first street) and many other places in the urban area is I guess akin to Golden Gates. Although can't say for certain since I've seldom been to Naples.


One of my favorite examples are people from Nassau County
You mean people from Long Island, NY? hahaha
I've met a few and it's incredible how they meet the "Jersey Shore" stereotype meanwhile my friends in NJ don't at all.


Yeah, from what I know, the FGCU scene are just typical wishy-washy liberal quasi-hippies at best. At worst, they're filthy elitist conservatives and libertarians.

More or less, but not much hippies really. I wish, then I'll have people to go to music festivals with and do acid.

[L.A.P.]

More or less, but not much hippies really. I wish, then I'll have people to go to music festivals with and do acid.

I shouldn't have said quasi-hippies as much as I should have said petty bourgeois liberal multiculturalists who have "free tibet" and "coexist" bumper stickers on their cars. The only reason I noted that characterization in distinction to most liberals around the country is that right-leaning views usually constitute as liberal here, while far right constitutes as "moderate conservative" (not an exaggeration).

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I sometimes feel quite disillusioned by the fact that a lot of the time people are all talk and no action. You try to organise, but all that ends up happening is people say they'll do something important and you never hear from them again.

You sound like those people who don't go to demonstrations and strikes because "it's not worth it, nothing changes.".

Sorry, but I never really became disillusioned with anarchism.
The anarchist movement is growing here, there are anarchist messages all over Lisboa, I am teaching anarchism to people I know, etc.
Basicaly things are going well here.

I don't have reasons to be disapointed with the movement.