new greek poll

[REDSOX]

A new poll from the VPRC pollsters for greek paper Ellada Avrio

Syriza 30%

New democracy 28%

Golden dawn 12%

Pasok 8%

Democratic left 4%

Good poll for syriza but worrying that golden dawn are third!!

[Ostrinski]

Holy shit GD have gone way up since I was last paying attention to the Greek situation.

[Anti-Traditional]

Looks like KKE have vanished...

[Igor]

holy shit GD that's pretty creepy

[Tim Cornelis]

A new poll from the VPRC pollsters for greek paper Ellada Avrio

Syriza 30%

New democracy 28%

Golden dawn 12%

Pasok 8%

Democratic left 4%

Good poll for syriza but worrying that golden dawn are third!!

I read in a Dutch newspaper that Golden Dawn was at ten percent, and SYRIZA was down to 24%

[fug]

GD seems to have almost doubled their support in less than a year...

[REDSOX]

Details can be found on kathemerini or by googling greek opinion poll. Direct links dont seem to work

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I read in a Dutch newspaper that Golden Dawn was at ten percent, and SYRIZA was down to 24%
From what I understand, Greece has multiple media outlets and other research systems that conduct the polls and get varying but similar results (usually depending on bias). What's definitely clear is that Golden Dawn have risen sharply.

[REDSOX]

Looks like KKE have vanished...

I couldnt find their poll rating for that pollster, but i bet it is pretty poor. The KKE are an irelevance, trapped in ultra leftism and going nowhere fast.....sad. I bet their thinking is well the masses will turn to us as this depression worsens, kinda reminds me of the attitude of the german communist party aka 1933

[Robespierres Neck]

I really hope Golden Dawn doesn't catch up. That would be awful. I don't know too much about Syriza, but from what I know they seem like the right choice out of the bunch.

[Geiseric]

Lol I SO called it a few months ago. KKE better stop being sectarian and work with SYRIZA or else everybody's fucked.

[Delenda Carthago]

Lol I SO called it a few months ago. KKE better stop being sectarian and work with SYRIZA or else everybody's fucked.

Yes. And CPUSA should work with the Democrats too. Ow, wait...

[GiantMonkeyMan]

KKE should definitely not join in coalition with Syriza. Syriza is just an amalgamation of Green, welfare capitalist and trot parties that have basically taken on Pasok's voters as well as their role as the capitalist centre-left opposition. It is definitely clear that something needs to change in KKE and I'm of the opinion that perhaps a leadership shuffle to bring in some new pursuasive voices to the front: preferrably someone like the Frenchman Melenchon, who at least had some charisma and got 8% of the vote in a presidential election of a country that wasn't in completely dire economic straights.

[Positivist]

Well the KKE should avoid elections as they can't really implement any meaningful changes within a bourgiose legal framework, and needs to move towards alternative culture and mutual aid operations. Unfortunately this doesn't look likely.

[Delenda Carthago]

Well the KKE should avoid elections as they can't really implement any meaningful changes within a bourgiose legal framework, and needs to move towards alternative culture and mutual aid operations. Unfortunately this doesn't look likely.

KKE has reconnected the electricity in hundreds of people's homes for the last years that couldnt pay the bills. Thats solidarity AND resistance. "Mutual aid" is for alterhippies and the Church.

[Thirsty Crow]

KKE has reconnected the electricity in hundreds of people's homes for the last years that couldnt pay the bills. Thats solidarity AND resistance. "Mutual aid" is for alterhippies and the Church.
Wow your insight on matters such as mutual aid is blindingly profound.

[citizen of industry]

Free electricity is something I could appreciate. When the bill goes up, as it has been decided, along with consumption tax, to bail out fucking TEPCO and the banks, I must eat less, work more and never go out. Proletarian culture centers would be sweet and all, but it would be nice to actually see my own kid once in awhile before I take that step.

[Delenda Carthago]

Free electricity is something I could appreciate. When the bill goes up, as it has been decided, along with consumption tax, to bail out fucking TEPCO and the banks, I must eat less, work more and never go out. Proletarian culture centers would be sweet and all, but it would be nice to actually see my own kid once in awhile before I take that step.

KNE(KKE's youth) has one of the biggest festivals in the country in Athens with many pre-festival gigs in the whole country. Yesterday it started the one in Thesaloniki which lasts 3 days. http://www2.rizospastis.gr/getImage.do?size=medium&id=374011&format=.jpg A photo from it. And here is the map from where the gigs are playing. http://efestival.kne.gr/?p=718

[Philosophos]

Once again GD has a huge percentege. What can you do when the fascists are actually offering help to everyday problems that the people have (I don't agree with their methods but they protect people that have been robbed in their own houses and have been living in fear because of the uncontrolled number of illegal immigrants that pass every day from the boarders).

I'm a little tired of KKE. They have been talking for the good of the workers and all that stuff (which are great) but at the same time they have their huge houses in Ekali (rich neighborhood) and they send their children to private schools while they say they don't want private schools. I'm not even talking about SYRIZA these guys are stupid and I'm pretty damn sure it's going to be just like the old parties. Democratic Left is sold to IMF, Germany etc with New Democracy and PASOK. Pffff I'm sick of all them I've started to don't care anymore

[Delenda Carthago]

Once again GD has a huge percentege. What can you do when the fascists are actually offering help to everyday problems that the people have (I don't agree with their methods but they protect people that have been robbed in their own houses and have been living in fear because of the uncontrolled number of illegal immigrants that pass every day from the boarders).

I'm a little tired of KKE. They have been talking for the good of the workers and all that stuff (which are great) but at the same time they have their huge houses in Ekali (rich neighborhood) and they send their children to private schools while they say they don't want private schools. I'm not even talking about SYRIZA these guys are stupid and I'm pretty damn sure it's going to be just like the old parties. Democratic Left is sold to IMF, Germany etc with New Democracy and PASOK. Pffff I'm sick of all them I've started to don't care anymore

You either incredibly stupid or a fascist troll. I go for "stupid".

[Ostrinski]

So why? Why is GD rocketting in the polls where KKE isn't?

[Delenda Carthago]

So why? Why is GD rocketting in the polls where KKE isn't?

First of all, what you say is untrue. The polls show a rise at both parties numbers. Secondly, the process for the rise of both of the parties is completely different. KKE is a party that goes all out for the revolution, to the point in which it denys to be a part in a capitalist goverment(something that now it would be a reality if we wanted to), GD is just another capitalist form. The step from ND and PASOK to SYRIZA or GD is 10 times easier than to KKE. For now the greek people are trying to reform the system. When the objective and subjective situations come to the point of overthrowing the system, that is when KKE will rise too. And history has showed that people will try to find ways to make the system work, before they clash with it. But that has a huge, enormous condition: to take the class struggles to the next level. You see, KKE is depending on the rising of class consciousness in Greece, GD is depending on the lowering of it. In the point we are today, GD is in a waaay better starting point.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

So why? Why is GD rocketting in the polls where KKE isn't?

Because people are pissed at what's happening while simultaneously ignoring the causes. It's the perfect situation for mass scapegoat implementation.

[rednordman]

holy shit GD that's pretty creepyworst thing is that this has only happened because people have lost faith in the left due to syriza missing out by only a small percentage too. They should have stuck by their lorells and not done what the EU and rest of the world told them. Now there is seemingly growing support for apparently tough extremist measures, that the Greeks misguidedly believe will stand up to EU. Epic Epic mistake currently in the making.

[Delenda Carthago]

I mean, think about it: People choosing KKE means that they leave EU, they leave euro, they leave all the previous way of production and economy and they become the first country that does a socialist revolution in the 21st century. People choosing GD means that everything remains the same exept that we dont have immigrants and "thief politicians". Which seems easier agenda for the people to relate?

[rednordman]

I mean, think about it: People choosing KKE means that they leave EU, they leave euro, they leave all the previous way of production and economy and they become the first country that does a socialist revolution in the 21st century. People choosing GD means that everything remains the same exept that we dont have immigrants and "thief politicians". Which seems easier agenda for the people to relate?:confused:I always thought that GD also are dead set in leaving the EU, so they can dictate their own immigration laws?

[Geiseric]

KKE is definately not going to lead a socialist revolution. Honestly this isn't a revolutionary situation, it's a situation having to do with wages, welfare, and the general well being of the proletariat. The working class is on the defensive, so talking about revolution at this point is premature.

However KKE defended the parliament building a few months ago so they could get something like 6% of the seats? I would of thought that's principally why they're not getting votes. That along with recent ultra leftism. There isn't a reason to not work with SYRIZA, and to be sectarian.

However comparing SYRIZA to the democrats and the CPUSA to KKE is laughable, since SYRIZA is more or less a working class party, or at least its politics are aimed at benefiting the proletariat. They're not co-opting anything, in fact they are the ones in danger of being co-opted like the CP-USA was.

[Delenda Carthago]

SYRIZA is more or less a working class party http://www.revleft.com/vb/syrizas-syndicalists-resign-t174881/index.html http://www.revleft.com/vb/syriza-member-says-t172447/index.html http://www.revleft.com/vb/tsipras-greek-rage-t172848/index.html nuff said.

[Geiseric]

Not really. Alot of your "arguements," come from wsws.org, leninreloaded.com (which I thought was a profoundly unprofessional name, unrelated though) which are hardly objective. It seems to me that with "reformism," this forum has an unannounced competition, "Whose most radical?!" By denouncing anything short of ultra leftism. Besides nobody except for SYRIZA actually has a plan that will benefit the working class, that is applicable with reality, so most criticisms of them are completely useless and opportunist.

People say "You hold illusions with SYRIZA," but I've never actually seen an alternative to their demands. However why people support KKE after that episode at the parliament building is beyond me. Nice job addressing the rest of my post btw, which was the important part.

[Delenda Carthago]

Not really. Alot of your "arguements," come from wsws.org, leninreloaded.com (which I thought was a profoundly unprofessional name, unrelated though) which are hardly objective. It seems to me that with "reformism," this forum has an unannounced competition, "Whose most radical?!" By denouncing anything short of ultra leftism. Besides nobody except for SYRIZA actually has a plan that will benefit the working class, that is applicable with reality, so most criticisms of them are completely useless and opportunist. People say "You hold illusions with SYRIZA," but I've never actually seen an alternative to their demands. However why people support KKE after that episode at the parliament building is beyond me. Nice job addressing the rest of my post btw, which was the important part. Man this is insane. The whole fuckin country has SYRIZA as the new PASOK and I have to talk on the basis whether SYRIZA is a working class party or not. Οι διαδηλωτές χαιρετούσαν τον Αλέξη Τσίπρα λέγοντάς του πως "Είσαι ο Ανδρέας Παπανδρέου", ενώ οι συνδικαλιστές που τον πλησίαζαν χαριτολογώντας τον έλεγαν "Τσιπρανδρέου". "Protesters greet Alexis Tsipras saying that "You are Andreas Papandreou" while the union approached him jokingly called him "Tsiprandreou."" http://www.newsit.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=161516&catid=3

[ComingUpForAir]

In times of crisis, some people scapegoat, some people unite

[Philosophos]

You either incredibly stupid or a fascist troll. I go for "stupid".

And why is that?

[REDSOX]

I really hope Golden Dawn doesn't catch up. That would be awful. I don't know too much about Syriza, but from what I know they seem like the right choice out of the bunch.

Syriza are the only game in town for the left wing in greece and the KKE better stop being sectarian and ultra and start linking up with syriza. Other leftists trots maoists et all need to do the same. The stakes are too high in greece for this bullshit posturing. The economy is sliding to oblivion and unemployment is touching 25% and climbing. For fucks sake lets unite or one day greece will awake and we will have fascism in the shape of golden dawn or something similar

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

You either incredibly stupid or a fascist troll. I go for "stupid".
You know, these are not mutually exclusive categories.

Just to clarify for some of the comrades, I don't think any Trotskyist Party, that actually followed Trotsky's writings about popular frontism, could possibly find themselves inside Syriza or supporting Syriza, or doing anything other than exposing Syriza as the sell-out, administer capitalism for the capitalist's, swindlers that they are.

[Grenzer]

However comparing SYRIZA to the democrats and the CPUSA to KKE is laughable, since SYRIZA is more or less a working class party, or at least its politics are aimed at benefiting the proletariat. They're not co-opting anything, in fact they are the ones in danger of being co-opted like the CP-USA was.

How is it a working class party if it supports capitalism? I thought it was basic Marxism that politics reflect class interest, in which case Syriza is anything but a party of the proletariat.

The comparison of Syriza to the Democrats and the KKE to the CPUSA is an apt one. Both the Democrats and Syriza embrace Keynesian liberalism, the difference is in the degree they advocate these policies. As for the KKE, it's just a typical pseudo-communist party of a petit-bourgeois nature. It does have support of union bureaucrats, but this by itself is not indicative of a proletarian nature.

No offense, but once again you suggest taking a shit all over proletarian class independence and joining hands with liberals. Keynesianism is liberalism, not reformism. It does not presuppose an ability to reform capitalism, but merely to make capitalism more tolerable. That is the nature of Syriza's politics.

[Geiseric]

SYRIZA isn't trying to "administer capitalism," though it wants to make sure the working class in greece still has welfare, and isn't crippled by debt and unemployment. That's what they're centered around. It makes more sense for a Trotskyist to look at it as a united front for transitional demands, if you've read the transitional program. One of his biggest issues was with Ultra Leftism, which KKE is expressing.

Forcing a bourgeois government to do things the working class needs is hardly "managing capital." That's like saying supporting welfare for unemployed people, instead of screaming REVOLUTION is reformist! It's nonsensical, and leads to sectarianism, like we see with the Sparts and KKE.

Also OBVIOUSLY the whole country doesn't see them as the "new PASOK," since they have 300% more votes than KKE, in fact that description applies more to KKE since they have no support due to their sectarianism, and have defended the bourgeois government, not only politically but physically from the working class.

[Ravachol]

The KKE denounced for 'ultra-leftism': Only on revleft! :rolleyes:

[Geiseric]

I'm not an ultraleft, so what's your point?

[Grenzer]

Just to clarify for some of the comrades, I don't think any Trotskyist Party, that actually followed Trotsky's writings about popular frontism, could possibly find themselves inside Syriza or supporting Syriza, or doing anything other than exposing Syriza as the sell-out, administer capitalism for the capitalist's, swindlers that they are.

I'm not really sure how you came to this conclusion.

Trotsky supported the SPD as a "workers' party" when it politics were much the same as Syriza's: a programme of liberal keynesianism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I guess there are three main things that I personally take away from this poll:

1) SYRIZA is in the lead, which doesn't suprise me given their last electoral performance;
2) Golden Dawn continues to gain ground, which kind of suprises me but it probably shouldn't;
and 3) KKE has apparently vanished from the polling results, an explanation for which I haven't seen from any KKE supporters here. (Other than the lame, "KKE is for abolishing capitalism, while all other parties are for reforming it, and Greeks presently want reform and not revolution.")

[Geiseric]

I'm not really sure how you came to this conclusion.

Trotsky supported the SPD as a "workers' party" when it politics were much the same as Syriza's: a programme of liberal keynesianism.

Tell me how it's a program of Kenyesianism, in concrete terms, not for ideological reasons. Also they wouldn't exist if they were Kenyesian, there's already a party for that! It's called New Democracy.

[Delenda Carthago]

Also OBVIOUSLY the whole country doesn't see them as the "new PASOK," since they have 300% more votes than KKE

OBVIOUSLY!!! DAAA?!?!?!

Its not like people are calling Tsipras the new Andreas Papandreou!

Or that people are creating graphics to mess with both PASOK and SYRIZA logos.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZYIl8dWsazA/UD4V0tmdtII/AAAAAAABHos/BNKZoc51j3A/s320/423787_422483791121032_1775102727_n.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MLNnyVZZcG4/T6flzrfZeOI/AAAAAAAAGL0/5cRrHU6a4G4/s1600/%25CE%25A3%25CE%25A5%25CE%25A1%25CE%2599%25CE%2596 %25CE%2591%253A%25CE%25A0%25CE%2591%25CE%25A3%25CE %259F%25CE%259A3.jpg

Or that SYRIZA has anything to do with PASOK's ex-MPs!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uyGFj8uqA2w/TIHawmkSnRI/AAAAAAAABPw/2Jm7d_E7bB4/s1600/mitropoulos_alexis_pasok.jpg
http://www.newsit.gr/files/Image/2012/04/11/resized/MHTROPOYLOS_489_355.jpg
http://papaioannou.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/sakorafa_entypoy-photo.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gIjyXDWBvwQ/T6Ob072cSlI/AAAAAAAAN_Q/6jRvGbBJOac/s1600/421-1-37-3-1-pol_Sac1(4).jpg

Or that SYRIZA took the basic old school PASOK slogans!
http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/syriza-afisa-3h-septembriou-123.jpg
http://www.theinsider.gr/images/stories/POLITIKA/225103_391445194255726_1462358592_n.jpg


Or that SYRIZA has groups in it that came straight from PASOK!
http://papaioannou.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/viewer.png

No, nothing like that. PEOPLE GAVE THEM VOTES! So its axiomatically that they are GOOD.

[Delenda Carthago]

And why is that?

Hm. I dunno. Probably its cause you are spraying the most disgusting apolitical fascist propaganda in here. Both pro the fascists(they help the people, they take the granmas to the ATM's :crying:) and against the communists (they dont care for the working class, they are filthy rich:crying:).

So you either really fuckin dumb person, or you are just fuckin with us.

[Geiseric]

I don't care about graphics, Lenin was a Social Democrat so that argument doesn't really apply, I can't read in greek btw so I can't tell the slogan thing. Also apparently less people are calling him that than are voting for them, by a huge margin. I can see why ultra lefts would call him as bad as papandreou since SYRIZA isn't a sect that tries to act as left as they can, it's an actual party with goals that are the same as the working class's at large, namely getting rid of austerity. That is the concern the working class is occupied with, not some "break from the EU and build socialism in one country," fantasy.

You seem more concerned with where people came from rather than what they're doing presently, which seems to be ad hominem.

[Delenda Carthago]

Also apparently less people are calling him that than are voting for them, by a huge margin.

Yeah. The fact that maybe people are looking for a new (good,old)PASOK, and thats why they voted for SYRIZA doesnt really occur to you, is it?

[Geiseric]

Well they're looking for the alternative that PASOK and KKE failed to provide, in the form of a mass party. In the U.S. we don't have anything like SYRIZA. But if there was something like SYRIZA, which is a United Front that's forming into a party based around transitional demands, I would join it and make sure the message it's spreading to millions of people isn't wasted, and doesn't become co-opted by the elements you guys are skeptical about. KKE has been co-opted for a long time man, I know they have a union as a large base of support, however they will lead greece into a dead end if faith is put into them again. Ride the masses, and try to steer the mass movement into the right direction!

The fact that they didn't vote for PASOK means they won't be fooled anymore by bourgeois socialists. There may be petit bourgeois elements inside of SYRIZA, but they are subordinating their efforts to support measures that will benefit the working class immensly. There is no chance for a revolution at this point, the conditions we're facing are the opposite that we'd see in a revolutionary situation. The working class is being subject to austerity, which will make about a third of the population descend into pauperism.

If the capitalists ruin the economy, and if austerity happens, GD will grow exponentially. This is happening AS WE SPEAK. The working class hasn't developed the consciousness for revolution, however if the ascending class conscious workers who find themselves part of SYRIZA's united front find themselves successful, it will send shockwaves through the rest of the Eurozone, and the rest of the region. If greece can stand up to austerity and defy the banks, the rest of europe and america can do the same thing, and we'll realize that here.

[Delenda Carthago]

Well they're looking for the alternative that PASOK and KKE failed to provide, in the form of a mass party.



Very massive. So massive, it should remind us the CPChina during Mao.
From Indymedia about yesterday's demos in Thesaloniki:

τα ατομα απο πληροφοριες υπολογιζονται ως εξης:

γσεε 4000

παμε 7000-8000

αλλαμπλοκ α/α-εξωκ.αριστερα 4000

Traslation:
The numbers, acording to infos are counting as:

GSEE 4.000

PAME 7000-8000

anarchists and leftists 4.000


https://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1420575

SYRIZA as we can understand was on either GSEE or the pan-left demo. Which both of them were half the size what KKE managed to gather.

Now check this: SYRIZA payed for many buses to go from Athens to Thesaloniki. PAME gathered only its people from Thesaloniki, and organised another demo in Athens.That means that the party of 4,5% managed to be more than twice bigger than the one of 27% :tt1:


"Massive party" my ass!:lol:

PS. Given the fact that you dont know a thing about the situation in here, I m not gonna waste time to answer to the rest.

[Ravachol]

I'm not an ultraleft, so what's your point?

That it's patently ridiculous to the point of hilarity to denounce the KKE (of all parties) for 'ultra-leftism'. That's my point.

[essmat]

holy shit GD that's pretty creepy

[Philosophos]

Hm. I dunno. Probably its cause you are spraying the most disgusting apolitical fascist propaganda in here. Both pro the fascists(they help the people, they take the granmas to the ATM's :crying:) and against the communists (they dont care for the working class, they are filthy rich:crying:).

So you either really fuckin dumb person, or you are just fuckin with us.

Because I'm a communist it doesn't matter that I will support the left parties in Greece because they don't actually express my beliefs. I'm obviously not doing any propaganda for GD. If you read well I said I don't agree with their methods, but in case you haven't noticed they are taking action and right now while the people are mad to the bone they take more percentage because they are doing something while the left is not doing anything radical so they can get people with their side. Let's face it people in Greece are not very open minded the last years.

I assume you are with Syriza because I've seen lots of your posts (correct me if I'm wrong). Why do you believe Syriza is not going to be like PASOK or why it's going to make the difference?

And plz keep the term stupid for yourself I haven't used this kind of vocabulary at anyone in here so I don't want people to use it for me.

[p0is0n]

How did/does the KKE respond to the incident at the parliament?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Tell me how it's a program of Kenyesianism, in concrete terms, not for ideological reasons. Also they wouldn't exist if they were Kenyesian, there's already a party for that! It's called New Democracy.

No, Keynesianism is an anti-cyclical, genuine reformist doctrine. New Democracy is implementing austerity, willingly initiating a crisis. SYRIZA claims, at least so far, to be anti-austerity (hence anti-cyclical), but really has reformist, and maybe even class-collaborationist, party members that might get nervous over the next months and will want to take government with the bourgeoisie. If it does take power of a Greece with the Euro, it will just deteriorate into a capitalist party. Then you only have the Fascists and ultra-lefts to play it out amongst the population...

[Delenda Carthago]

I assume you are with Syriza because I've seen lots of your posts


You either incredibly stupid or a fascist troll. I go for "stupid".

Yeap. Dead right.

[Geiseric]

No, Keynesianism is an anti-cyclical, genuine reformist doctrine. New Democracy is implementing austerity, willingly initiating a crisis. SYRIZA claims, at least so far, to be anti-austerity (hence anti-cyclical), but really has reformist, and maybe even class-collaborationist, party members that might get nervous over the next months and will want to take government with the bourgeoisie. If it does take power of a Greece with the Euro, it will just deteriorate into a capitalist party. Then you only have the Fascists and ultra-lefts to play it out amongst the population...

Kenyesianism isn't reformism, on the contrary it's centered around things like bailouts and central banking. I don't know what cyclical means, so you're going to have to explain that a bit more.

Also none of their stances are class collaborationist, a perfect example is their refusal to form a government with pro austerity parties! How do you explain that?

Also nobody replied to this post I made, which is somewhat the core arguement.

SYRIZA isn't trying to "administer capitalism," though it wants to make sure the working class in greece still has welfare, and isn't crippled by debt and unemployment. That's what they're centered around. It makes more sense for a Trotskyist to look at it as a united front for transitional demands, if you've read the transitional program. One of his biggest issues was with Ultra Leftism, which KKE is expressing.

Forcing a bourgeois government to do things the working class needs is hardly Kenyesian. That's like saying supporting welfare for unemployed people, instead of screaming REVOLUTION is reformist! It's nonsensical, and leads to sectarianism, like we see with the Sparts and KKE.

The same logic that ultra lefts have towards "reformism," can be summarized in this analogy. If slaves are having their bread taken away, and organize to stop that from happening, so they can not starve to death, by the ultra left logic, that is reformist, since it is "managing the slaves by keeping them happy." It's the exact same logic all of the ultra lefts on this forum have.

[Philosophos]

Yeap. Dead right.

Of course you are with SYRIZA... And then I'm the stupid... Epicness at it's best

[Kornilios Sunshine]

What the fuck people??!! You were saying that KKE should co-opt with Anarchists and stuff, and now you are saying the big problem KKE has is the fact it's ultra-left??!! You need to quit smoking weed.

And no, SYRIZA and KKE are not co-opting. People fighting the working(SYRIZA) don't have any relation with people fighting for the working class.

Anyways, the percentage on this poll for the KKE was 6,0% which is +1,5% which is good.

[Geiseric]

We were saying they should start a united front, with the same demands as SYRIZA, how is that a bad thing? I mean do you think leaving the euro would seriously be a good idea if the debt is unresolved, economically?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

We were saying they should start a united front, with the same demands as SYRIZA, how is that a bad thing? I mean do you think leaving the euro would seriously be a good idea if the debt is unresolved, economically?
The demands of SYRIZA are the demands of PASOK. And KKE -unfortunately for you and everyone supporting that SYRIZA + KKE = L.F.E- , cannot co-operate with such tactics of SYRIZA.

[Philosophos]

We were saying they should start a united front, with the same demands as SYRIZA, how is that a bad thing? I mean do you think leaving the euro would seriously be a good idea if the debt is unresolved, economically?

If I remeber well KKE and SYRIZA used to be the same party and after that KKE was the international KKE and the cut off part was SYRIZA ( named at that time KKE of Greece). They were separated a long time ago how can they unite once again?

After all SYRIZA is a coalition so there are even more parties with different opinions than the ones of KKE.

Anyway I know KKE should be less bureaucratic, but I support it because it's not at least so unstable and idiotic as SYRIZA is.

[Geiseric]

PASOK is pro austerity, SYRIZA is anti austerity, how is that the same? They had a chance to form a government with PASOK and ND, but didn't.

[thriller]

Kenyesianism isn't reformism, on the contrary it's centered around things like bailouts and central banking

Because when capitalism first started up they had central banking and bailout programs... Ohh wait, no they didn't. It's a REFORM to the complete laissez faire practice that was originally envisioned by certain capitalist's.

[Philosophos]

PASOK is pro austerity, SYRIZA is anti austerity, how is that the same? They had a chance to form a government with PASOK and ND, but didn't.

Before the elections when SYRIZA was at 4% Tsipras was saying we don't care even if we go out of the euro and some revolutionary stuff like we won't pay the extra bills and neither the people should do etc etc.

When they got the big-o-16% (I think it was 16, anyway it was a big percentege) Tsipras started taking back some of his words and he started saying things like :" We are going to negotiate... We are open for discussions" etc while before he was: "We don't care about IMF, Troika, Merkel. We don't need them". He was basically saying I'm the badass here and noone can mess with me. I actually believed him before the elections but when I saw that after the big percent he took in th elections that he started taking back his words I became really angry and I realized that this party is just a bunch of losers (not only this party pretty much all of them).

[Geiseric]

Because when capitalism first started up they had central banking and bailout programs... Ohh wait, no they didn't. It's a REFORM to the complete laissez faire practice that was originally envisioned by certain capitalist's.

They actually did have a central bank when capitalism started, in the U.S. at least. Does the term "federalist," mean anything to you? They didn't need bailouts untill the epoch of growth was over. Kenyesianism only applies to capitalism in decay, and trying to save it.

SYRIZA isn't trying to save capitalism, it's trying to work inside of the legal boundaries of capitalism to help the working class, which is possible, according to Marx and Engels, but not to achieve socialism, which is what divides social democrats from communists, which isn't even an issue at this point.

[Solidarity]

Good poll for syriza but worrying that golden dawn are third!!

It worries me that there is even a Golden Dawn

[Philosophos]

It worries me that there is even a Golden Claw

It's Golden Dawn mate not Claw :) If it was claw we would have even more trouble here in Greece :lol:

[Solidarity]

It's Golden Dawn mate not Claw :) If it was claw we would have even more trouble here in Greece :lol:

Oh lol typo.

:lol:

[thriller]

They actually did have a central bank when capitalism started, in the U.S. at least. Does the term "federalist," mean anything to you? They didn't need bailouts untill the epoch of growth was over. Kenyesianism only applies to capitalism in decay, and trying to save it.

Yes, federalism is a type of government when the highest branch of government allows for the formation of smaller governments within its jurisdiction and is beholden to the highest branch. It is NOT an economic system. Capitalism did not start in the US, it started in Great Britain. The USB was disbanded by Jackson, at which point industrialization was just starting to rise in the US. The US was not fully capitalist until the mid 1800's. Also how is trying to save capitalism in decay NOT reformism?

[Geiseric]

Reformism and kenyesianism are ideologies that are opposed, since reformism wants to help the proletariat through one legal reform, or working inside a bourgeois government, or several at a time, key is legal. Engels 2nd international and the early spd were technically reformist, its a working class ideology however. Kenyesianism is basically enforcing state controls to maximize profit, and make the entire bourgeois economy function, which is impossible with a "free market." The new deal wasn't reformist, it was kenyesian, since unemployment crippled the capitalist economy. The civil rights bills were however reformist, as well as minimum wage laws and such.

[thriller]

Reformism and kenyesianism are ideologies that are opposed, since reformism wants to help the proletariat through one legal reform, or working inside a bourgeois government, or several at a time, key is legal. Engels 2nd international and the early spd were technically reformist, its a working class ideology however. Kenyesianism is basically enforcing state controls to maximize profit, and make the entire bourgeois economy function, which is impossible with a "free market." The new deal wasn't reformist, it was kenyesian, since unemployment crippled the capitalist economy. The civil rights bills were however reformist, as well as minimum wage laws and such.

So because Kenyesian policies are not gradually introduced (and don't benefit the working class) it is not reformist in the socialist sense of the word. That makes sense. Could one argue it is bourgeoisie reformism?