Cindy Sheehan Quits Race

[Prometeo liberado]

As part of my ongoing infatuation with insanity I have been keeping up with California's allegedly socialist Peace and Freedom Party's Presidential campaign. Mind you the P&F is a multi-tendency party born of the New Left movement of the 1960's. Many of it's some 150 active members hail from that era. So getting back to the campaign, on the weekend of August 4&5 the Party convention in L.A. voted to have the Green Party's Rosanne Barr be it's Presidential representative. Winning out over the Freedom Socialist Party's Steven Durham, PSL's Peta Lindsay, "Liberal" Rocky Anderson and the Socialist Party's own whipping post,Stewart Alexander. Peta would bow out before the vote took place as she is ineligible for the Cali ballot, only to stun everyone by asking them to cast for......Barr.(!?) Yeah that's socialism PSL style. Next to go down was the "I was a Marxist in college.." liberal, Rocky Anderson. Opting to just say enough already. So when the vote was finally over after the second round these were your results, from the minutes:


Second ballot: Barr 37, Alexander 6, Durham 16, 5 abstentions. Barr was declared nominated.


Several people who had voted for Alexander or Durham recognized that Barr was going to be nominated, and switched their votes even though no one had yet been formally dropped, ending the process before it could become too wearing.


While both Cindy Sheehan and Christina Lopez were nominated from the floor for VP, Lopez declined (because she is Dunham's running mate nationally), and Cindy was nominated for Vice President with all in favor except 13 abstentions (mainly from FSP). So it's official - Roseanne Barr and Cindy Sheehan are the Peace and Freedom Party ticket

As indybay.org wrote today:


Cindy Sheehan Quits as Peace and Freedom Party VP Candidate over Ideological Dispute with Rosanne Barr. She was overwhelmingly voted down as the VP candidate of the Socialist Party USA, not because of animus toward her, but animus toward her handlers and their history. Cindy has a long history of jumping on to every conspiracy theory group from WTC7 to the so called Osama bin Laden body dumping hoax. Cindy Sheehan announced she has quit the has Peace and Freedom Party presidential campaign as its VP Candidate. The Barr / Sheehan ticket itself was the shoddy result of the Peace and Freedom Party (PFP) trashing its own rank an file members by ignoring its own primary results, just another example of backroom sectarian anti-democratic process on the American Left.

One should question whether Cindy's action was a result of an ideological dispute with Rosanne Barr or between their "handlers." Last November, an entryist vanguard sect in the Socialist Party USA (SPUSA), Revolutionary Unity (RU) founded and led by Marc Luzietti, nominated her as the SPUSA VP candidate without Cindy addressing the SPUSA convention or even contacting its leadership. I do not think she was overwhelmingly voted down because of a lack of support for her personally, but animus toward the RU that had just failed in their attempt to purge an prominent SPUSA member for running on the Green Party line for governor in New York and the RU's long history of character assassination against the SPUSA leadership. Sadly, Cindy has a long history of jumping on to wagons and having second thoughts, from Alex Jone's WTC7 dubunked conspiracy theory to her belief the the faked water burial of Osama bin Laden which she embraced without a shred of evidence. However, Cindy as shown that she has the rare strength that she can still change her mind. I hope she will continue her activism with "her own" voice without the need to be associated with anyone or any group.

All this is good and plenty except for the fact that these candidates have to actually want to run a race. Let alone save and expand a dying Party. Since that damning vote took place, one which revealed the true opportunistic and anti-socialist nature of the party, Barr went into alternative hiding and/or public appearances spouting whatever came into her head. Eschewing any platform or advice. And Sheehan? Cindy Sheehan is an activist whose son was killed serving the imperialist powers in the Iraq war. She is no friend to the Obama administration or Capitalism The perpetually melancholy Cindy Sheehan fought and fought, always leading the charge until she dared to look back and no one had hers. Dejected by Barr's lack of communication or even a sense of commitment. Feeling betrayed by the Party's lack of virtue or even organizational integrity she has folded up shop and gone home. NO MAS, GODDAMN IT!
I really hate this time of year.

Edit: I do feel for Sheehan as she was very much led to think that this time the P&FP would act with integrity. Yet what could you expect from Barr and a room full of Liberals who color themselves as Reds?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

This is my favorite part of the election so far. I wanna wrap myself up in your post and live in it for a little while.

[Crux]

I am really curious who wrote that indybay.org piece. Oh and fair play to Cindy Sheehan.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I am glad Cindy Sheehan got out of that trainwreck. She is an admirable person but her time to act was a few years ago. Cindy Sheehan got almost 20% running against the corporate thug Nancy Pelozzi, when her campaign was faced with a total media blackout. Cindy could have worked to build an embryo of a third party/working class movement breaking from the Dems, instead she chose to involve herself with 911 truther nonsense.Maybe she'll have room to contribute in the future.

The Stewart Alexander campaign is a fiasco.

If one thinks that electoralism, however much a crock, may provide room to at least present socialist ideas, its looks like its down to Jill Stein.

[kurr]

What passes for "Left politics" here is amusing to me. P&F, SPUSA, and the Green Party are all social democratic in nature. So essentially you have a M-L conceding to a Green Party celebrity candidate and a random Trot out there, going it alone.

Hahaha, this is a debacle.

Oh yeah, and Sheehan is done.

[ed miliband]

What passes for "Left politics" here is amusing to me. P&F, SPUSA, and the Green Party are all social democratic in nature. So essentially you have a M-L conceding to a Green Party celebrity candidate and a random Trot out there, going it alone.

Hahaha, this is a debacle.

Oh yeah, and Sheehan is done.

to be fair, i think this is what passes for "left politics" in most places too.

[Prometeo liberado]

I am glad Cindy Sheehan got out of that trainwreck. She is an admirable person but her time to act was a few years ago. Cindy Sheehan got almost 20% running against the corporate thug Nancy Pelozzi, when her campaign was faced with a total media blackout. Cindy could have worked to build an embryo of a third party/working class movement breaking from the Dems, instead she chose to involve herself with 911 truther nonsense.Maybe she'll have room to contribute in the future.

The Stewart Alexander campaign is a fiasco.

If one thinks that electoralism, however much a crock, may provide room to at least present socialist ideas, its looks like its down to Jill Stein.

To describe Stewart Alexander's campaign as a fiasco would be akin to describing the Baldwin family's foray into the wonderful world of drugs and alcohol as misguided. Yeah it's a fair description but won't quite paint the total picture of the actual self-destruction that has occurred. He got in so over his head that I truly wonder if drugs and alcohol are part of his daily routine. And whose to blame? The SPUSA or Stewart. Chicken or Egg. This self-described "middle-class" car salesman "consultant" never should have got out of bed. How can you run for President under the socialist banner yet be ashamed of your job or to not understand that there is no such thing as the "middle-class"?

I have had the misfortune of watching several of the debates leading up to this debacle and one of the many horrors that I have witnessed is Jill Stein refusing to answer some very relevant questions. One of the most relevant being her support for Israel. I wrote in an earlier thread how the Greens imploded on one another when, after having dodged the question for most of the year, the room took on a decidedly anti-Semitic tone. People were escorted out and still others vowed to torpedo her candidacy until she answered. These were Greens. Those that know her best. We can do much better

[Prometeo liberado]

I am really curious who wrote that indybay.org piece. Oh and fair play to Cindy Sheehan.

Lawrence Rockwood's your man.

[Zeus the Moose]

Ah, yeah. That's Rockwood. The massive hate-on for the "entryist vanguardist sect" of Revolutionary Unity is the tip off (and the fact that he likes sending me his inane diatribes via e-mail, so I got this earlier today.) It's pretty nice that most of the members of the "entryist" group he so despises were members of the SP longer than he has been.

[Prometeo liberado]

Ah, yeah. That's Rockwood. The massive hate-on for the "entryist vanguardist sect" of Revolutionary Unity is the tip off (and the fact that he likes sending me his inane diatribes via e-mail, so I got this earlier today.) It's pretty nice that most of the members of the "entryist" group he so despises were members of the SP longer than he has been.

Finally, someone with an inside perspective. Could you shed some light on why in the wide-wide-world-of-sports did the SP put Stewart Alexander up as it's sacrificial lamb? I know he's not the brightest guy but he never deserved this. All that was accomplished at the end of the day was a more tattered looking SP. Oh and of course Stewart resigned from the P&F, instead of the SP.:huh:

[Prometeo liberado]

This just in!! Cindy Sheehan is now re-thinking her decision to quit. This from a very reliable source in the State Central Committee who speaks with Cindy often. Has anyone heard from her "running mate", Roseanne Barr? I feel like that kid in Home Alone, 1&2.

[Mr. Natural]

US politics are appalling and the American "left"- Greens, Peace and Freedom, Nader campaigns, etc.--is indeed laughable when I'm not crying over the complete absence of any genuine left politics.

Let's not be smug, Comrades. We aren't even active in our appointed mission, and the field is wide open. I frequently encounter a kneejerk resistance to the very idea of discussing revolutionary organizing theory, and "Marxism" is currently conservative as hell.

We need to cultivate "open but critical" minds in our present situation. The old ways have clearly failed. Yet, most minds I encounter at Revleft are "closed and critical."

Marx and Engels got it right for their time, and historical materialism and the Marxist analysis of capitalism are valid for all time. The "class approach" to revolution needs radical reworking, though; indeed, many areas of Marxism have failed to update as capitalism and scientific knowledge have grown. "Class" is still a valid concept, but what is the working class now and how might it get organized?

I believe electoral politics offer us a promising basis for engaging the American people/working class and developing revolutionary processes. This is not an "electoral strategy" but a "revolutionary strategy." It is a matter of engaging the American people where they live and think to expose capitalism and its bourgeois democracy and to develop some real, radical democratic politics.

Anarchism/socialism/communism are intensely democratic: they extend "democracy" to all spheres of society. Mother Nature's ecosystems are intensely "democratic": all organisms therein have an active place and "vote" within the whole. Mother Nature is a commie; communism is natural.

My red-green best.

[Prometeo liberado]

Now Cindy has said that she will only go to events if she is supplied gas money. She deserves to not have to beg the Party she is helping keep on the ballot. P&F are reformist shit-heels.

[fug]

Rosanne Barr
Is that the Roseanne? Awesome, wonder why she hasn't gotten more votes.

[Prometeo liberado]

Is that the Roseanne? Awesome, wonder why she hasn't gotten more votes.

Yup, it's her. Go to the peace and freedom party website if you want a laugh.

[Robocommie]

That Marc Luzietti guy sounds like real trouble.

[Geiseric]

See this is why we need to base our efforts in the unions, and not in bourgeois electoral politics, "community activists," or any other NGO affiliated "party". A mass party, based around demands that the working class, not any bourgeois politicians have, needs to happen.

[RedMaterialist]

Why does anybody care about this infantile crap?

[KurtFF8]

See this is why we need to base our efforts in the unions, and not in bourgeois electoral politics, "community activists," or any other NGO affiliated "party". A mass party, based around demands that the working class, not any bourgeois politicians have, needs to happen.

While we would all agree to some extent with the principle of basing our efforts in a "mass party," I just don't see such a party existing right now. And of course as anyone who has been involved with unions (on just about any level) knows: unions themselves are quite involved in bourgeois electoral politics. That's not to say that this is correct or that we should accept this fact, but it just seems like a strange dichotomy to me (let's not deal with bourgeois politics, let's deal with unions!)

[Synergy]

What passes for "Left politics" here is amusing to me. P&F, SPUSA, and the Green Party are all social democratic in nature. So essentially you have a M-L conceding to a Green Party celebrity candidate and a random Trot out there, going it alone.

Hahaha, this is a debacle.

Oh yeah, and Sheehan is done.

What about the PSL?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

See this is why we need to base our efforts in the unions, and not in bourgeois electoral politics, "community activists," or any other NGO affiliated "party". A mass party, based around demands that the working class, not any bourgeois politicians have, needs to happen.

Basing politics on unions is no guarantee of better politics than around non-union affiliated groups.

Look at the Trade Unions and Socialist Coalition here in the UK. Dodgy nationalist politics and an even lower vote share than many other left sects.

Your faith in the Unions is mis-placed.

[Prometeo liberado]

What about the PSL?

Hmm. Did you read the OP? The PSL, Peta Lindsay, in an act of total cynicism called their supporters to back the Barr campaign. Barr, the same lady that, along with Jill Stein, refuses to answer any questions in regards to holy Israel. Barr, the same person who is quoted as saying that she wants a "cross between socialism and capitalism" as the basis for a new economy. That's how the PSL shows it's Marxist analysis and class conscious vanguardism, by backing the most brain dead candidate.

[Synergy]

Hmm. Did you read the OP? The PSL, Peta Lindsay, in an act of total cynicism called their supporters to back the Barr campaign. Barr, the same lady that, along with Jill Stein, refuses to answer any questions in regards to holy Israel. Barr, the same person who is quoted as saying that she wants a "cross between socialism and capitalism" as the basis for a new economy. That's how the PSL shows it's Marxist analysis and class conscious vanguardism, by backing the most brain dead candidate.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of scanning posts and I miss things.

BTW, do you have a link with more info about this?

[Grenzer]

See this is why we need to base our efforts in the unions, and not in bourgeois electoral politics

You've actually got this ass backwards.

It was the former that played a large part in shitcanning the SPD, not the latter. You simply seek to try to repeat the already failed experiment of Labourism.

[#FF0000]

I really like that people who stress how important elections are and how useful they can be do something so plainly stupid and wasteful of time and resources as trying to run for president of the united fucking states of america.

go for a city council or something first jesus christ

[Rugged Collectivist]

I really like that people who stress how important elections are and how useful they can be do something so plainly stupid and wasteful of time and resources as trying to run for president of the united fucking states of america.

go for a city council or something first jesus christ

Are there actually people on the left who think elections are useful for anything other than propaganda? Because if you're going to run just so you can spread the message, president is probably your best bet. No one cares about city council.

Really, I can't fathom why a leftist would run a legit campaign. Let's say a communist wins mayor or something. Now what? Are they going to use their office to overthrow capitalism or something? If you just want to pass small reforms you might as well run as a democrat and save yourself an assload of trouble.

[#FF0000]

Are there actually people on the left who think elections are useful for anything other than propaganda?

There's "communist" parties like the KKE and PFLP that have a least some power. I think the idea most folks who think we ought to go that route is that they "do the best they can" from their elected position while promoting "transitional demands".

To be honest if one is going to promote the electoral route at all, that makes a whole lot more sense than "BUT YOU SEE IT IS JUST TO SPREAD THE WORD". Asking people for votes and then saying "I don't plan on winning or have any plan to implement when I am elected I'm just in this to spread the word" is a great way to get voters to never bother looking at you again.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've heard the strategy of "running for president as propaganda" before on this site, many times before in fact, but I have yet to see any concrete proof that it actually works.

[Prometeo liberado]

I've heard the strategy of "running for president as propaganda" before on this site, many times before in fact, but I have yet to see any concrete proof that it actually works.

For the P&F this strategy may work as it may register the many voters it needs to stay on the Cali ballot. But at what cost? The message they are sending is that they are a socialist party willing to give up it's very ideology for a celebrity. Barr is not a socialist. They are registering people to build what?

[Prometeo liberado]

Sorry, I have a bad habit of scanning posts and I miss things.

BTW, do you have a link with more info about this?

indybay, Peace and Freedom Party org or com, the PSL site or Liberation News.
Shit, just google the shit about anything in the OP you like and something will come up.

[Rugged Collectivist]

There's "communist" parties like the KKE and PFLP that have a least some power. I think the idea most folks who think we ought to go that route is that they "do the best they can" from their elected position while promoting "transitional demands".

To be honest if one is going to promote the electoral route at all, that makes a whole lot more sense than "BUT YOU SEE IT IS JUST TO SPREAD THE WORD". Asking people for votes and then saying "I don't plan on winning or have any plan to implement when I am elected I'm just in this to spread the word" is a great way to get voters to never bother looking at you again.

Yeah, but if you're just going to "do the best you can" (Which I assume means passing weak reforms) you could run for a liberal party. Running under the commie ticket is going to be hell on your popularity.

I think the idea of "propaganda campaigns" is to force bourgeois politicians to debate/engage with communists.

[#FF0000]

Yeah, but if you're just going to "do the best you can" (Which I assume means passing weak reforms) you could run for a liberal party. Running under the commie ticket is going to be hell on your popularity.

Yeah that'd defeat the point though. Especially since the idea would be to push for 'transitional demands' and then force through the 'minimum program' if the party achieves a majority in parliament/senate/congress/whatever

[Rugged Collectivist]

Yeah that'd defeat the point though. Especially since the idea would be to push for 'transitional demands' and then force through the 'minimum program' if the party achieves a majority in parliament/senate/congress/whatever

Could you give me some examples of a "transitional demand"? Can you also explain the "minimum program" to me? I think my ignorance is hindering this conversation.

[Urbandale]

Transitional demand is another way to say ask for populist/left reforms. Minimum program means that you can't push for revolution as a Senator, but you could do very wide social & political reforms.

[pinkoooo]

"She was overwhelmingly voted down as the VP candidate of the Socialist Party USA, not because of animus toward her, but animus toward her handlers and their history."

The right-wing of the party refused to even let Sheehan run for VP. They changed the rules on the spot so now, you have to be an SP member to run for Veep, but you cannot be a member and run for Prez.

[Prometeo liberado]

"She was overwhelmingly voted down as the VP candidate of the Socialist Party USA, not because of animus toward her, but animus toward her handlers and their history."

The right-wing of the party refused to even let Sheehan run for VP. They changed the rules on the spot so now, you have to be an SP member to run for Veep, but you cannot be a member and run for Prez.

You people, the SP, don't have much room to speak to tell the truth. I mean y'all put Stewart Alexander out there like a sacrificial lamb. I know Stewart, he's a good person, but what the SP, and then later the PF did to him was disgraceful. He had no business going out and speaking on behalf of anyone or anything.

[pinkoooo]

That is because the PSL is so disgustingly sectarian that they would rather block all of the other socialist groups than to be principled.

[pinkoooo]

First: actually know what the hell you are talking about before you say, "you people".

1.) I am no longer in the SPUSA.

2.) No one put him out like a "sacrificial lamb"---you don;t know what you are talking about on this score, either--- he aggressively went after the nomination. He was "picking his cabinet" and posting it on Indymedia many months before he convention. He lobbied NYC and NJ for support as well as CA.

[Ocean Seal]

For what its worth the whole running for president as propaganda thing hasn't gotten very far because we haven't run any particularly popular candidates. I really hate how everyone thinks that they are working with a proven strategy when the last time the left had a proven strategy was about 90 years ago.

[Prometeo liberado]

For what its worth the whole running for president as propaganda thing hasn't gotten very far because we haven't run any particularly popular candidates. I really hate how everyone thinks that they are working with a proven strategy when the last time the left had a proven strategy was about 90 years ago.

This race, for the PF, is only about one thing, and thats the survival of the Party. Because of new regulations put in by the state of Cali the PF lost thousands of registered members and now must go out and effectively re-register the state. So what they did was put up a candidate with the most personal wealth and name recognition. To be honest the central committee did vote on it, yet this vote was controversial and people were all excited at the prospect of being on T.V. Fucking morons. Sold out socialist principles for what? Barr deals with maybe a handful of members and barely pays for shit. They became liberals to save a socialist Party.

[Geiseric]

Well if we start a course, now, to propagandize for the labor movement to split from the democrats, it would be a huge step for the working class as a whole. This is undeniable by any standards.

The losses in Wisconsin and Ohio as of lately are due to the labor movement being co-opted by Liberals. There are calls from several unions nationwide for a meeting next spring regarding the prospect of an independent labor movement. How is that not an ideal ground for us to further the class struggle?

Also people here don't remember that Unions are capable of General Strikes. If we can get a General Strike in the U.S. like what Greek workers have shown is possible, with demands put forth by a unified national labor party, it will undoubtedly increase class consciousness.

However for that to happen we need to take back the most blatant and organic bodies of class consciousness, unions, from the Bureaucrats and from the democrats.

[Prometeo liberado]

Also people here don't remember that Unions are capable of General Strikes.
They also don't remember that blind people are capable of seeing. A Union is capable of anything. American Unions are incapable of this though. The membership may be capable, but the Unions collectively are so far gone that a General Strike, not to mentions General Strikes(plural), is all Greek to them.(Pun intended)

[Geiseric]

American unions are the same as in any other country. We'll have to break through the racial, masogynist tendencies, but that's not impossible. It's happened before, and it can happen again. It has to happen again, because there's never been a revolutionary movement without union support. Eugene Debbs was the chairman of a union, Cannon was in the IWW and helped form the CIO, so the communist and the labor struggle go hand in hand.

[Prometeo liberado]

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2490913965/ahufkhtxnfq3o5dltkym_normal.jpegRoseanne Barr

✔
@TheRealRoseanne
you guys could vote4 me. u could elect me. u could do the right thing, but u r 2 scared. u cld reg peace & freedom, and still vote Obama tho

6 Oct 12 (https://twitter.com/TheRealRoseanne/statuses/254675089344311297)

Reply (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=254675089344311297)
Retweet (https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=254675089344311297)
Favorite (https://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=254675089344311297)

Peace and Freedom just doesn't get it. This is of course Barrs tweet but as she is the Pres. nominee PF needs to to take some of the blame for this nonsense.

[bcbm]

re: most of this thread- who cares?



Also people here don't remember that Unions are capable of General Strikes. If we can get a General Strike in the U.S. like what Greek workers have shown is possible

what have they shown is possible?


with demands put forth by a unified national labor party, it will undoubtedly increase class consciousness.or give the right wing super pacs a feeding frenzy of 'look at these lazy unions' talking points. what unions could even have a meaningful strike? the essential industries in the us are barely unionized at this point, to say nothing of the others.

[The Douche]

Broody Guthrie:


to propagandize for the labor movement to split from the democrats, it would be a huge step for the working class as a whole. This is undeniable by any standards.

Yeah, cause the labor movement has nothing to do with the day-to-day operation of capital, right? Yeah, the unions are totally an organic expression of independent working class action. Its not like their very existence is based on negotiation with the bosses or anything. A huge step forward indeed.



The losses in Wisconsin and Ohio as of lately are due to the labor movement being co-opted by Liberals

Word. Totally. There is no way that Malatesta was right 100 fucking years ago when he talked about how unions are inherently reformist. Its just within the past decade that the union movement became a part of the left wing of capital.


There are calls from several unions nationwide for a meeting next spring regarding the prospect of an independent labor movement.

WOOHOO MEETINGS!!!!


How is that not an ideal ground for us to further the class struggle?


Lots of workers are down with the Democratic party, guess we better get involved with them to, what a great ground for class struggle, they really care about working people.


Also people here don't remember that Unions are capable of General Strikes. If we can get a General Strike in the U.S. like what Greek workers have shown is possible, with demands put forth by a unified national labor party, it will undoubtedly increase class consciousness.


Oh yeah, don't let the fact that general strikes are illegal (and the unions are totally comitted to legal action) get in your way. All hail the general strike, if we just believe hard enough we can turn the clocks back to 1919.


However for that to happen we need to take back the most blatant and organic bodies of class consciousness, unions, from the Bureaucrats and from the democrats.

COMRADES! Reclaim the organs of mediation, on Marx and Lenin and Trotsky, we swear, it'll be different this time!








Fucking *yawn*.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

American unions are the same as in any other country. We'll have to break through the racial, masogynist tendencies, but that's not impossible. It's happened before, and it can happen again. It has to happen again, because there's never been a revolutionary movement without union support. Eugene Debbs was the chairman of a union, Cannon was in the IWW and helped form the CIO, so the communist and the labor struggle go hand in hand.
But our laws are different. There's a reason why General Strikes are possible every couple of months in Spain, Greece, Portugal, etc. Labor Law is extremely anti-worker in the U.S.

[Geiseric]

Lol it's illegal! We might as well give up! Socialism is illegal too, so I guess we're fucked from the get go! The reason unions suck are because of the leadership. If we get rid of the parasites in charge, and reclaim them for the reasons they were founded, a labor party is an impossibility. The only question is how long is it untill rank and file workers are sick of the bureaucracy. Hint: It won't be that long, with their struggles being sold out.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I'm well aware. Union bureaucracy has been on the rise ever since the 1890s, and full-force since the 1950s. I'm involved union activities and trying to change and fight not just bureaucracies but perceived notions of unions is a job within itself.
My original point was, a lot of European workers enjoy greater freedom and privileges when it comes to labor law. Not to say they're spoiled at all; the situation in a highly-developed like the U.S. is just that bad where even our perceived laws that are meant for us are usually against us.

[The Douche]

Lol it's illegal! We might as well give up! Socialism is illegal too, so I guess we're fucked from the get go! The reason unions suck are because of the leadership. If we get rid of the parasites in charge, and reclaim them for the reasons they were founded, a labor party is an impossibility. The only question is how long is it untill rank and file workers are sick of the bureaucracy. Hint: It won't be that long, with their struggles being sold out.

It's the unions who are concerned with legality, not me, but I think you know that, and are just shirking off the actual issues. Seizing the unions is about as likely as seizing the democratic party.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Unfortunately, BG, labor laws have influenced the development of the American labor movement. It's more complicated than simply saying, oh, well, socialism is illegal too, guess we can't do that now! See this (http://www.amazon.com/Law-Shaping-American-Labor-Movement/dp/0674517822) book, for example.



Why did American workers, unlike their European counterparts, fail to forge a class-based movement to pursue broad social reform? Was it simply that they lacked class consciousness and were more interested in personal mobility? In a richly detailed survey of labor law and labor history, William Forbath challenges this notion of American "individualism." In fact, he argues, the nineteenth-century American labor movement was much like Europe's labor movements in its social and political outlook, but in the decades around the turn of the century, the prevailing attitude of American trade unionists changed. Forbath shows that, over time, struggles with the courts and the legal order were crucial to reshaping labor's outlook, driving the labor movement to temper its radical goals.

Some union officials (like Jimmy Hoffa) justified the involvement of the Mafia in organized labor as the only way to combat strike breakers and get gains for their members in the highly constricted legal world that unions operated in. So yeah, the difference in legal situations between, say, Greece and the USA definitely matters. Sorry, but you're just delusional if you think it's simply a matter of getting "the right people" in positions of influence. The federal government has more than enough laws at it's disposal to neutralize the threat of the "official labor movement".

[Geiseric]

Union members in Wisconsin and Chicago obviously didn't care what the co-opting bureaucrats thought when they went on strike themselves. So there is potential, and it's right in front of our faces. When another struggle like the one in Chicago starts, we would be stupid not to enter into it and try to make sure it achieves its goals. The workers don't give a shit about legality if they, from below, demand a strike, which is happening. The longshoreman's union struggles last year are also indicative of this. As well as the Latino Transport workers union strike in 2002, which was in California. 2 million truck drivers took the day off, and the entire state was shut down, and it was about immigrants rights.

Mass union parties have existed in the past, and gotten hundreds of thousands of votes, such as the Debs era SP. It was centered around unions, debs himself was a union president. The CP-USA was led by IWW organizers like James P. Cannon, which proved in the 30's that a general strike was possible, in Minneapolis. Unless you're a metaphysician and you think that "Things have changed since then," the same rules apply.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Are you talking about the Chicago teacher's strike? That was not a "general strike". That's what YOU brought up, not strikes limited to this-or-that profession, and limited to narrow issues like pension reductions etc. The last event I can think of that was even close to being an effective general strike in the USA was the May 2006 strike of undocumented workers, and it goes without saying that it happened outside of union parameters.

I support unions trying to leverage benefits for their member's benefit, but I'm also very much aware of their limitations. A general strike to "increase class consciousness"? Keep waiting for that.


Mass union parties have existed in the past, and gotten hundreds of thousands of votes, such as the Debs era SP. It was centered around unions, debs himself was a union president. The CP-USA was led by IWW organizers like James P. Cannon, which proved in the 30's that a general strike was possible, in Minneapolis. Unless you're a metaphysician and you think that "Things have changed since then," the same rules apply.

Yes, bring it back to Debs! Hell, bring it back to the Russian Revolution, the movement for the 8 hour day in the 19th century, bring it back even further to the 1st International! Because really, what's changed? :rolleyes:

Well, Taft-Hartley and the Wagner Act in the aftermath of the 1930's strikes, for one...

[Ostrinski]

I never understood the adoration that the contemporary left has for Debs. I mean, this was a guy that believed that socialism could be achieved through the ballot box and upheld electoralism as a primary strategy for achieving such a system.

I mean he was a solid union leader and figure for working class politics in general but come on folks, call out what needs calling out.

Hope I didn't step on a sacred cow.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I never understood the adoration that the contemporary left has for Debs. I mean, this was a guy that believed that socialism could be achieved through the ballot box and upheld electoralism as a primary strategy for achieving such a system.

I mean he was a solid union leader and figure for working class politics in general but come on folks, call out what needs calling out.

Hope I didn't step on a sacred cow.
He said some sweet things, and was overall a really nice guy. He gave some great speeches, and spoke in layman's term; Ordinary language so even the simplest of folk could embrace his message. He wasn't a Christian but used a lot of Christian metaphors and examples so that the widely-Christian Midwest could relate to the message.
But he had plenty of his political faults. Maybe he was too simple-minded, too linear.
For too long, he had this weird perception of "manliness" as well.
Also, too many people do hold him as a sacred cow for the IWW. Debs wasn't really involved in the IWW... After 3 years, he let his membership lapse once it became clear the IWW wasn't going to endorse ballot-voting.

[Ostrinski]

He said some sweet things, and was overall a really nice guy. He gave some great speeches, and spoke in layman's term; Ordinary language so even the simplest of folk could embrace his message. He wasn't a Christian but used a lot of Christian metaphors and examples so that the widely-Christian Midwest could relate to the message.Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying here. He had good leadership skills, was a great guy overall, and is an important figure of the American labor movement. The qualm I have is that people seem to glorify him while at the same time castigating others that uphold the same political strategy.

Also, I thought he was a Christian?

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying here. He had good leadership skills, was a great guy overall, and is an important figure of the American labor movement. The qualm I have is that people seem to glorify him while at the same time castigating others that uphold the same political strategy.

Also, I thought he was a Christian?
He might of been. He used Bible imagery very well. He only step foot into a Church once in his life, when he was young. He was absolutely frightened by the Pastor's speech of brimstone and a fiery hell, and swore never to go back again.
I guess that doesn't automatically qualify him as an atheist though... my mistake :lol:

[Robocommie]

Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying here. He had good leadership skills, was a great guy overall, and is an important figure of the American labor movement. The qualm I have is that people seem to glorify him while at the same time castigating others that uphold the same political strategy.

Well I mean, I've heard it said that Karl Marx had been of the opinion that a socialist revolution by ballot could have been possible in the US following the Civil War, as it did not yet possess a large military complex. These things are highly reliant on historical context, and Debs' era was quite different from our own for a lot of different reasons.

I think anyone who dismisses electoral politics completely out of hand is overlooking certain historical events, like the (very regrettably short-lived) victory of Salvador Allende in Chile, the enormous Communist turnout in the 1933 German election (which might well have been a Red victory if not for Nazi suppression) and, some would argue, the repeated success of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela.

I'm not arguing that the ballot is the only or even the best way to win, just that there can be a time and a place where such things can be effective - provided certain circumstances are in place.

[Mr. Natural]

Ostrinski, I'm not trolling for a beef (nor a sacred beef cow), but you did step on a major concern of mine: the necessity for leftists to maintain open but critical minds in assessing our situation and developing revolutionary organizing strategies in response to capitalism's globalization.

I know you are aware of Marx's comment on the possibility of a relatively nonviolent revolution occurring via electoral politics in the US, Britain, and Holland that Robocommie referenced. I'll just reproduce it for others as an example of a prominent leftist addressing and assessing revolutionary prospects with an open but critical mind. Marx, in a speech delivered in Amsterdam in 1872 after a congress of the First International: "You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are countries--such as American, England, and if I were more familiar with your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland--where the workers can attain their goal by peaceful means. This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must someday appeal in order to erect the rule of the labor."

So how is it that modern Marxists dismiss electoral politics out of hand? Yes, "revolutionary" electoral politics have failed, but so have all violent revolutionary processes. Obviously, this is not a time for dogma, but for open-but critical-minded, radical, revolutionary re-thinking.

Capitalism has triumphed and the human species is now mentally as well as physically imprisoned within capitalism's global institutions and practices. The left's current pervasive passivity and conservatism and hyper-sectarianism is a reflection of this.

I can easily envision ways to use the American electoral process to engage the American people and use the elections to generate radical awareness leading to actual revolutionary processes. Important grassroots bases can also be gained through the election of radical local candidates.

No? The Tea Party is rapidly taking over the county where I live via electoral politics. Why couldn't the left do this? There's an answer. The left currently cannot do this because it is "forbidden" by effete dogma that opposes Marx and Engels and good radical common sense.

In our present situation, I would say the left must get rid of all its sacred cows and sacred dogmas and engage our situation with open but critical minds, as would Marx and Engels. We have a magnificent instrument to employ in this--Marxism--but Marxism has been detoured and not updated during the past century.

My red-green best.

[bcbm]

The only question is how long is it untill rank and file workers are sick of the bureaucracy. Hint: It won't be that long, with their struggles being sold out.

uh most labor unions 'sold out' in the 1970s and 80s and have been in a free fall ever since. the struggle over public sector unions is the end of a long series of fights the unions have lost, not the beginning.


Union members in Wisconsin and Chicago obviously didn't care what the co-opting bureaucrats thought when they went on strike themselves. When another struggle like the one in Chicago starts, we would be stupid not to enter into it and try to make sure it achieves its goals. The workers don't give a shit about legality if they, from below, demand a strike, which is happening.

they also don't care about a bunch of lefty weirdos trying to co-opt their struggle.

[ed miliband]

lol, do they actually talk about the "labour movement" in the us? i thought that was a very specific term to respond to the relationship between unions and a labour party -- something with no relevance in the states.

e; actually i think i'm talkin shit

[Ostrinski]

In the US it just connotes working class political movements. It's pretty general, i.e. you can specialize in labor history for your history phd.

[Grenzer]

The Unions today are complete and utter crap. They do offer an improvement in conditions as opposed to being without unions, but unions simply cannot be regarded as something that has any amount of revolutionary potential. It's best to just work around them. I'm not saying don't target unionized workers, I'm just saying it's the unions themselves that are crap.

[Ocean Seal]

Hey guys I have a great plan. Since most of you are talking out of your asses at this point and it sounds really depressing, why don't we try all of the things? Considering most of us hate each other, why don't we form a bunch of little sects, and try a series of different tactics and see who wins? And then maybe we can try to bounce some ideas off each other and form a mass party? Also before we make threads like this, could we actually back up our proven tactics with some evidence?