Mazar-e Sharif - masacre.

[Freiheit]

in the northern afghan city happened a blood bath.
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the north-alliance made 500 prisoners, mostly foreign taliban-fighters.
the taliban hided hand granates. they overpowered the 100 guards and got their arms and tried to escape.
a german reporter and an american military-adviser were present. the amercian asked for air-support.
the reporter and the american escaped, the air force came and destroyed the camp.
600 victims.

is this reactions of the americans right?

it shows:
1) it is a real war, not just a war on terrorism.
2) it is a brutal (kill, kill, kill). noone may survive. kill all enemies. no good sense.
3) it is an international war, not just afghanistan against the americans, many islamic fighter of any countries are involved.

[DaNatural]

I don tthink we can get a fair idea of what exactly happened there as all media is pretty much biased but i wouldnt be surprised if america just took control and them all to bits. peace

(Edited by DaNatural at 12:15 pm on Nov. 26, 2001)

[Freiheit]

yes, but the usa always try to say:
it is not a real war, we just fight against the terrorism.
we do not attack the country, only terrorist camps.
this bullshit was the begin.
then they said:
the taliban support the terrorists, we must destroy them
we dont do it for us, we do for the world and for
afghanistan. it not a war against islam, it is just a war
on terrorism, but actually it is not a real war, we only
bomb some traincamps etc.
that was the second stadium.

what will they do if the taliban are gone?
will the us attack another country 'to save this country
before itself', of course?

whats about their anti-terrorism bill which is against the
human right, but the un of course doesnt do anything.
.
.
.

[Chancho]

Let us not engage in moral relativism here - as happens all too frequently on this bb. Either you condemn killing or you do not - there is no just murder - be the executioner or victim a Talib, a Northern Alliance member, an American or any other human being.

If people cannot decide where they stand on the most fundamental ethical issue - respect for life - how can they feel free to move on to other issues?

[Freiheit]

war is war, i know, but the us pretend that it is not a
real war, like for example vietnam.

they wanna that the western people care as less as
possible about afghanistan.
they dont tell the truth.

thats on fair, even the us must play with open cards.

[DaNatural]

murder is murder in the broadest sense comrade chancho, but in many instances there are different circumstances. I can easily condemn the murder of innocents and then justify the murder of a scum bag like bin laden or a slave owner. A utilitarian approach can easily justify the murder of someone like bin laden or some taliban soldiers, simply by basing arguments on what will create more good than bad. Now do i advocate killing? no, but i understand that sometimes it comes into play. I think getting people to pick sides on something like this is easier said than done, however when one does support or condemn a killing i would hope that they have sufficient evidence to back up their statement. peace

[El Commandante]

By what has happened in this massacre the Geneva convention has been broken. The Taleban have to be treated like POWs but law and the Northern Alliance have broken it. It just goes to prove how uncivilised both sides are in this conflict that they have no regard for the sanctity of life and throw it around like a broken object.

[Moskitto]

There was a sad photo in the independant on Sunday. It might be on their website but It's a photo of a Taliban soldier who's about to be shot but the worst bit is that he's having the last moments of his life on camera.

[CheGuevara]

Give me a fucking break! This was a rather successful ARMED jail break. If the Taliban soldiers had just ran away and the US came after them with fighters and bombed the shit out of them that would have been totally unjustified. However, these Taliban soldiers snatched weapons up from Northern Alliance soldiers and probably killed quite a few in the process. From what I've heard, it wasn't just a few Taliban soldiers who snatched weapons, but many of them, so it's not like the planes were killing mostly unarmed prisoners in order to suppress a very small armed minority. It would've been better if the US had let the Northern Alliance handle it on the ground so that they could've been a little more selective about which prisoners they killed(to make sure they killed only armed ones). Of course, if the whole revolt/armed jail break was a fabrication, it would be truly atrocious, but I've heard no reports to the contrary.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 8:46 pm on Nov. 26, 2001)

[Chancho]

Quote: from DaNatural on 6:33 am on Nov. 26, 2001
murder is murder in the broadest sense comrade chancho, but in many instances there are different circumstances. I can easily condemn the murder of innocents and then justify the murder of a scum bag like bin laden or a slave owner. A utilitarian approach can easily justify the murder of someone like bin laden or some taliban soldiers, simply by basing arguments on what will create more good than bad. Now do i advocate killing? no, but i understand that sometimes it comes into play. I think getting people to pick sides on something like this is easier said than done, however when one does support or condemn a killing i would hope that they have sufficient evidence to back up their statement. peace


Yes, I fully understand that killing is an unfortunate part of human reality - though consider how such a reality might be qualified if people had a firmer principle of respect for life without exceptions.

Also, being human myself, I do feel different responses for any given victim of murder depending on all the circumstances - not in a judgmental way, simply as a natural emotional and intellectual response.

However, none of that has anything to do with one's fundamental principles in relation to murder and respect for life.

[DaNatural]

i agree chancho, it is unfortunate that life has turned into something so brutal that we are so desensitized to everything that often times it evokes no emotion. Being that his world is how it is, i still have an emotional bond to those innocents who are "caught " in the cross hairs of life. however, i will not shed a tear for an individual like bin laden or ramzi yousef, or better yet even ole president himself mr W. if someone were to wipe them off the earth i frankly would be pleased, cus they are not contributing to the betterment of mankind.

[Freiheit]

the states say that they have to fight for freedom,
justice, ... but there is no fair war. some americans were
killed, brutal yes. but it is not right if the americans kill
some taliban.
war is war, there is no fair, just war.
there is war, or no war. the americans say it is
something between, but thats a lie.

[Guest]

Then what should they do? Sit back and allow more innocent people to be killed? That's just a lack of a solution. Do nothing. Allow more innocents to be killed. That's murder as well. Or cowardice.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Guest on 6:16 pm on Nov. 27, 2001
Then what should they do? Sit back and allow more innocent people to be killed? That's just a lack of a solution. Do nothing. Allow more innocents to be killed. That's murder as well. Or cowardice.

suicid-airplane-pilots crashed in the wtc. the states
couldnt kill them, so they descided to kill bin laden, the
leader of the terror organisation. taliban didnt hand him
out, so the states descided to kill the taliban.

but what should they do then?

thats a job for the cia. they should go in and get bin
laden. if they want the cia also can go to afghanistan
and just kill bin laden, but they shouldnt fight a war.

i know it is bad 4'000 ppl died, but is it right to begin a
war?

another way is to send the un in the area. then there
are many many human rights injured in aghanistan.

[Derar]

Quote: from Freiheit on 1:37 am on Nov. 28, 2001


i know it is bad 4'000 ppl died, but is it right to begin a
war?


ofcourse not !

well , also lets add onother 4000 .......... victimis , all the afganis that were killed during the bombing !

if the US thinks it has the right to bomb a country for what a man or an organization did , then afganistan or any afgani has the right to bomb the US for what it did !

[Freiheit]

derar, for once we have the same opinion.

[El Commandante]

Here are some facts about the massacre, ALL of the prisoners have been killed, there has not been a single survivor. More moderate members that tried to surrender outside the fort we shot. Guns were smuggled into the fort by the sheer stupidity of the NA, they didn't bother to get the first two trucks full of talebs for concealed weapons. There were 8 talebs to every guard, the interrorgation room was next to the arms dump, easy break out and grab of weapons. Two CIA agents attempted to single handed interrogate 12 prisoners (against the Geneva convention, name, rank, number, date of birth). Talebs were found with their arms bound behind their backs with a single bullet wound to the head, points to execution but by who, disgruntled talebs, irritated NA, or special ops?

Also a special forces soldier was killed by one of the US's own missles, the first blue on blue kill. Seems like the whole thing was a mess. Also there was no attempt to seperate the radicals from the passives so they could spread their crack pot views and get the whole prison behind the revolt.

Seems like something is amiss with this catergory of errors or was it all bad luck?

[Freiheit]

war is war.