PLEASE JUST ANSWER THESE FEW QUESTIONS, please

[el_profe]

JUST answer to these few and easy question

MANY OF you say the USA wants to dominate the world, which is fine, i dont think so, but that is your oppinion.


BUT LETS GO BACK 57 years to the end of WWII.
If my facts are correct, didnt the USA occupy of Japan and Germany but 5 or so years later gave Japan back its country and I think they gave West Germany back to the Germans.


BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.
Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

Why did Stalin crush the HUngarian "rebellion" which only wanted their country back?

Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

Why where East Berliners (that had been under so much oppression from Russians) so happy to bring down the Berlin Wall?

YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

I really cant beleive you people defend Stalin and the USSR.

[(*]

You don't have to physically occupy a bunch of countries to dominate the world. It is not a question of if the USA wants to dominate the world, as it is a reality that they do


I really can't say much more, as most of your post was based on the idea that most people here love Stalin. Which, by the way, is entirely false.

[EneME]

Uh most here don't approve of Stalinistic thoughts...

[redstar2000]

If my facts are correct, didn't the USA occupy Japan and Germany, but 5 or so years later gave Japan back its country and I think they gave West Germany back to the Germans.

Um, not exactly.

The United States retained military bases in both West Germany and Japan and still has to this day large numbers of troops in both countries.

However, it's possible the German bases might be shut down in favor of new bases in eastern Europe...Poland is eager for U.S. occupation, just to name one.

Secondly, the reason that nominal autonomy was restored to those countries had to do with American "cold war" strategy...it was intended all along that the new regimes would be servile allies of U.S. imperialism. Even now, serious governmental opposition to America's wars of conquest are more verbal than practical. The degree of genuine independence is problematical.

The politicians that the U.S. installed in West Germany and Japan, by the way, included huge numbers of ex-Nazis and supporters of Japanese imperialism, many in prominent positions. The leaders of major corporations in Germany and Japan during World War II mostly got away with their crimes...and their profits.

The main reason that it was "better" to be an American satellite than a Russian satellite is that Americans paid for your servility with large aid programs. The Russians, having had most of their assets destroyed in the war, had little choice but to use force to keep their "allies" in line.

It's "amazing" the "friends" you can make and the "elections" you can "win"...if you just spread enough money around.

(Massive bribery is the key to the effective occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq...but, so far, the U.S. has been too "cheap" to use that tool.)

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[LuZhiming]

BUT LETS GO BACK 57 years to the end of WWII.
If my facts are correct, didnt the USA occupy of Japan and Germany but 5 or so years later gave Japan back its country and I think they gave West Germany back to the Germans.

It served as a massive propaganda effort. Do you notice how the majority of Europe is so hesistant to criticize the U.S.? Hmm, I wonder why. Japan is a laughable case. In fact I will: :lol: :lol: :lol: The U.S. restored the same Emperor that was responsible for sending the Japanese forces to attack lands and becoming allies with Nazi Germany. This was also while they were taking control of all sorts of Japanese resources. That was fair game though, I assume. For some strange reason that was probably a noble one, the U.S. did not permit the Japanese to reconstruct the oil-refining facilities that had been destroyed by Allied bombings, and General MacArthur's oil bureau headquarters were staffed with American personnel from Jersey Standard and Mobil. Those were all with good intentions, I'm sure. The U.S. also took many of the people responsible for all sorts of experiments on living Chinese humans, saved them from any punishment, and used them for their own purposes. Hmm, those people must have been nice guys. The U.S. didn't exactly rebuild Greece either. Sure, there were Communist forces there. And so the U.S. had to carry out its national duty, and eliminate the great threat of Communism, right?.(By aiding the British invasion) If you justify that much, I wonder, how do you consider the U.S.' specific actions in that conflict? For example, the using of former Nazi's to carry out measures against the Communists in Greece. And don't fool yourself, the measures were quite brutal. Was that ok? Or perhaps you would better like the U.S. actions in Thailand. With the help of former Japanese collaborators, they completely undermined a democratic government. The case of the Phillipines is similar to that of Thailand, the U.S. helped bring the Japanese collaborators into power, and helped them supress all peasent rebellions. After all, Fillipinos at that time had no right to control the Phillipines, it would be absurd to think so. The U.S. also helped restore the fascist government of Italy, great job there too. And let's not forget the U.S.' beautiful aid and support of Admiral Jean Darlan. Great man, with U.S. help, in Algiers, he became head of the French North African Government. The problem with him is that he was not so nice to Jews and Arabs. You know, Jews recieved persecution often, had no rights, Arabs were beaten, other such matters. All with U.S. recognition. Good 'ole Roosevelt. Or of course in France, where Eisenhower for good reason, had control over the civil liberties exercised by the French citizens. At this same time (And starting a bit before the U.S. occupation) U.S. backed French terrorists killed about seven million people, all called "victims of the Liberation." Liberation indeed. The U.S. were also notorious for letting a large number of Nazis flee to Latin America. That was all just for the sake of mercy though. The U.S.' aid to Britain during WW2 was done in an interesting fashion too. The goal of it was to give enough to hold off Germany, but not enough to enable Britain to recover, and be able to hold on to many of the lands it had dominated across the globe.(And many of those fell into French and U.S. hands, all by coincidence and the need for humanitarian aid though, as we all must know.) But of course, that was just a coincidence, and the U.S. was in reality not sending too much aid, because it wanted to use it to help its own citizens get jobs. And of course Rossevelt's Lend Lease assistance to King Saud (Another great guy), was in all for good intentions, and the fact that it prevented Saudi Arabia's concession from falling into British hands, and instead into the U.S.', was of course something that benefitted the appreciative people of Saudi Arabia. As we can see, it is ridicolous to claim that the U.S. was trying to ever dominate the world, their actions during and right after WW2, were all about helping the world and fighting for freedom, not to speak of their actions before and a bit after.


BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.
Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

Neither Che Guevara or Fidel Castro were admirers of the Soviet Union, or Stalin himself. Cuba's initial goal was to stay independent in the Cold War. But U.S. terrorism and economic strangulation virtually forced Cuba to ask for aid from the tyrannical Soviet Union.


Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

The same reason civillians tried to flee from U.S. supported El Salvador: Because the people with the most power in the country (Which was in this case, the Soviet Union) were carrying out or helping carry out, atrocities against the civillian population.


Why did Stalin crush the HUngarian "rebellion" which only wanted their country back?

That is a simple one. The answer is that Stalin was a brutal imperialist, similar to his true admirers, Harry Truman and Winston Churchill.


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

The reason in well known, they are knowingly or unknowingly, supporters of a ruthless dictatorship known as the USSR, and that they are largely because of that fact, in utter denial.


Why where East Berliners (that had been under so much oppression from Russians) so happy to bring down the Berlin Wall?

Who wouldn't be willing to free themselves from that sort of tyranny?


YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Stalin: Murderous, Imperialistic, Dispicable
Soviet Union: Virtually the same as the United States of America (The only difference that needs to be noted, is the methods in which the Soviet Union and the U.S. suppressed problematic people in the national territory. The U.S.' method worked much better.)


I really cant beleive you people defend Stalin and the USSR.

People often support imperialists.

[Liberty Lover]

Neither Che Guevara or Fidel Castro were admirers of the Soviet Union, or Stalin himself.

This is but one of the many fallacies contained in your post.

"I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated"- Che

I will deliver a more in-depth response tomorrow.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Liberty [email protected] 20 2003, 11:16 AM
This is but one of the many fallacies contained in your post.

"I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated"- Che

I will deliver a more in-depth response tomorrow.

Yeah, that was after the U.S. had refused to stop its terrorism against Cuba. It is called a lie. Cuba had to do a lot of that to become allies with the Soviet Union. Four months after the Bay of Pigs invasion, which was in August 1961, Che Guevara met with John F. Kennedy's assisstant special counsel, Richard Goodwin, at an international gathering in Uruguay. And he told him that Cuba was prepared to forswear any political alliance with the Soviets, pay for the former U.S. properties through trade, and consider stopping the support for leftist revolutionaries in other countries. In return for this, the United States would stop all of its anti-Castro actions. The U.S. rejected this, and intensified the conflict. And that is what created the supposed Cuban support for the Soviet Union.

[Liberty Lover]

It seems your friends disagree.

http://www.spunk.org/library/groups/acf/sp001768.html

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Liberty [email protected] 20 2003, 11:40 AM
It seems your friends disagree.

http://www.spunk.org/library/groups/acf/sp001768.html
Little regard do I have for a sourceless, unimpressive biography as such.

[Liberty Lover]

I don’t think I wish to contemplate the hours it would take for me to find a credible leftist website that contains citations of valid historical documents. This is the best I can do for now.

Anyhow, it’s an opinionated web article not a biography.

[Maynard]

If my facts are correct, didnt the USA occupy of Japan and Germany but 5 or so years later gave Japan back its country and I think they gave West Germany back to the Germans

Yes, that is true but the reforms left by the US were made to ensure that there economic policies would suit the US in as many ways as possible. They got there country “back” but in the way the US wanted it to be.



BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.


Here (http://www.3bh.org.uk/IV/main/IV%20Archive/IV347/IV347%2012.htm) Che hardly loved the soviet system and actually grew to dislike it more and more overtime, when his revolutionary ideas were not backed or discouraged by the soviet leadership.
As for keeping control, yes that is true. They were always under control not always directly by the soviets. The United States and Great Britain has much more experience with puppet regimes than the Soviets have ever had. I fail to see the point. How can you support that ?


Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

Probably to get to West Germany, I would suggest. Why are so many people trying to flee totarilaran regimes locked up in prisons in Britian, Australia and many other countries ?


Why did Stalin crush the HUngarian "rebellion" which only wanted their country back
Stalin was dead for 3 years before this happened. Was he crushing people from the grave ?


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?


Which race did Stalin commit Genocide upon ? As for people denying it, I don't know everyone's individual reasons for doing it. What files are these ? In fact much of the evidence points out that these claims were overly exaggerated. I am no Stalinist nor Trotskyist but it's easy to see many countries have an interest in dehumanising "communism". So that the ideology as a whole gets painted under this brush. It is now to the stage where any claims can be made without evidence and believed straight away. I am no supporter of the Soviet system but I would like some evidence of these claims.


Why where East Berliners (that had been under so much oppression from Russians) so happy to bring down the Berlin Wall?

Probably because Pink Floyd were playing there :). It wasn't Russian "Oppression" it was German "Oppression" backed by the Soviet government. They were probably happy to be living in a reunited Germany once again. It seems there "celebrations" have been short lived "But only 45 percent viewed the new political system -- capitalist democracy -- as better than the old. Only 27 percent said they felt better in society and 67 percent said unification had worsened the next generation's chances" Of East Germans said that.


YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Well, we could go through the crimes of many nations that have existed and say exactly the same thing . The United States, Australia, Great Britain, Germany have hardly been squeaky clean in there history yet people say they are the greatest ??


"I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated"- Che

One quote doesn't mean that he supported all of his policies. Do you not concede that Che's idea developed over time. .Winston Churchill made statements about how he admired Hitler ? Bush has stated how much easier it would be to be a dictator. Should we say that Winston Churchill supported Hitler then ?

[Fidel Castro]

Once again el_profe your ignorance has made you stand out as a complete idiot. You make this all too easy.

LOL :lol:

[Saint-Just]

All these posts are coals in the fire of ignorance if el profe has not learnt something from this thread. And has he learnt something?

[el_profe]

Okay this is what i have seen so far.

I said the USA gave back gov. to Japan and west Germany, never did I say they didnt still have a army base their. Then some of you say , yes but they put govermetns that where more "capitalist" but then some other post said, that they put people from the old nazi regime in gov. ????? how could ex-nazis be in favor of the USA economic policy?

Anyway Japan and germany have both benefited by that american style thinking gov. cause they are good countries today (i mean economically, infrastructure, and all that, ) but they had this before the war so this means the USA influenced didnt do them bad nor good, they evantually stayed the same. (i know japan is in recession but compared to most counries in ASIA they are beter off economically).

We had redstar, say the USSR was justified in keeping all those nations under Soviet oppression. That is just a stupid statement.

Luzhiming, said i was right about stalin being a murderer, but he said Che was not a supporter of Stalin?
In other post ive been told many times that CHE supported Stalin??????
WHICH ONE IS IT?

Mayard is still the defending the USSR , and wants proof of this genocide i am talking about:

FROM GENDERCIDE.org
Under the dictatorship of Joseph Stalin, tens of millions of ordinary individuals were executed or imprisoned in labour camps that were little more than death camps. Perceived political orientation was the key variable in these mass atrocities. But gender played an important role, and in many respects the Purge period of Soviet history can be considered the worst gendercide of the twentieth century.


Here are some more links: http://www.lemworld.com/genocide/stalin.asp

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article255e.htm

http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/KOMUNISMS.html


:o this site has the totals , TOTALS FOR USSR, at the end of the EUROPE Columns. http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM


Of course Maynard will still deny those totals, thats fine.

THE Last 2 post, dont know why tell me I am wrong about Stalin so they just say i am ifnoratn and uninformed.

YOU SAY MOST OF YOU DO NOT SUPPORT STALIN or the USSR, then why do i see flags and logos of the USSR as avatars?

CMON, all i was trying to say with my post is why you cant admit the genocide and why you think stalin didnt commit genocide? so far i think i got 1 actually saying he was against stalin.

THen somoen told me i ws ignorant because I said Che admired Stalin, yet many other of your communist comrades stated that in fact CHE did admire Stalin and he wanted to spread Stalinism. Anyway, decide all ready which one it is.

[Bolshevika]

BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.

One thing before we start: Don't listen to Che-Livers about Che's admiration for Stalin. What Che did was denounce the anti-Stalin Khrushchevite system of capitalist reform and imperialism, he was certainly right to do so. Stalin supporters also oppose the Soviet Union after 1953, just like Che.

Here is a quote from Che whilst in the revolutionary Arbenz government: "I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated"

For your information most of Eastern Europe was Russia's. All the recent little countries did not exist prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

I assume you mean "flee to West Germany"? If so, it is because they were mislead. There were reports of NATO radio propaganda campaigns being broadcasted through East German homes: "Go over the wall and you will live in fabulous riches". Of course most of it was lies and many East Germans who made it over tried to get back to East Germany, but were not allowed by West German government.

Today over 40% of the East German population supports socialism over capitalism. Some even have former DDR flags on their doors and hang Erich Honecker portraits in their homes. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/890496.stm
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/0...wall.nostalgia/ (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/09/wall.nostalgia/)


Why did Stalin crush the HUngarian "rebellion" which only wanted their country back?

The Hungarian counter revolution happened in 1956, Stalin died in 1953. You are misinformed.


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

Why do you keep denying that Santa Claus exists, even though we see him in the mall every December 24th?


Why where East Berliners (that had been under so much oppression from Russians) so happy to bring down the Berlin Wall?

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/0...wall.nostalgia/ (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/09/wall.nostalgia/)


YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Indeed it was a great country under Lenin and Stalin.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 06:43 PM




For your information most of Eastern Europe was Russia's. All the recent little countries did not exist prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Why did so many east berliner's try to flee East germany but got killed in the process?

I assume you mean "flee to West Germany"? If so, it is because they were mislead. There were reports of NATO radio propaganda campaigns being broadcasted through East German homes: "Go over the wall and you will live in fabulous riches". Of course most of it was lies and many East Germans who made it over tried to get back to East Germany, but were not allowed by West German government.

Today over 40% of the East German population supports socialism over capitalism. Some even have former DDR flags on their doors and hang Erich Honecker portraits in their homes.


The Hungarian counter revolution happened in 1956, Stalin died in 1953. You are misinformed.


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

Why do you keep denying that Santa Claus exists, even though we see him in the mall every December 24th?





YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Indeed it was a great country under Lenin and Stalin.
Most of eastern Europe was Russia's, not before WWII. your wrong with that. the Soviet Union took over those countries after WWII. so in fact those countries where independent nations.
http://www.wwnorton.com/nrl/english/nawol/Maps.htm

You say nato had propagands so poeple would flee the east(germany) but why didnt the Russians let them go?

Then the USSR crushed the Hungarina revolution, they still killed many hungarians.

Keep denying santa clause exists?, i think you dont belive the USSR and stalin commited genocide. look at my previous post.

Some peole in general still want communism, but definetly not the most.

SO you say a mass murderer was a great leader??? :o

each sentence is an answer to each of your post's paragraph.

[Bolshevika]

I did not understand a single thing you just said.

[Loknar]

Guys, both sides were imperialistc. Even today the US and Russia are the top defense spenders in the world.

[Urban Rubble]

Of course the USSR was Imperialistic, we know this. The reason so many Socialists will ignore tyranny from them is because they were "spreading the good word of Socialism". What a bunch of shit. Imperialism is wrong in any form.

[Soviet power supreme]

El profe all that you are saying were made in reviosionistic Ussr.
Stalin died 1953
Hungarian rebellion was in 1956
Berlin wall was builded in 1961


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

Here is the thread
The crimes of Stalin (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=5200)
You can read that and then think it again.


BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.


Did he keep them?I remember that he helped to turn those nations to sosialistic.And why Poland and other Eastern european nations were not part of Soviet Union?

Answer me this

Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck.


YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Stalin was great man.Revisionism is bad or have you seen any avatars where are Hrustsov's or Gorbatshov's face?

[Sabocat]

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
Date: 1944
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
- geno·cid·al /"je-n&-'sI-d&l/ adjective

I'm tired of people calling every death "genocide". I know you think it drives your point home more effectively but enough is enough. Exactly what race, political or cultural group was Stalin specifically committing genocide against? This is nothing but the perpetual capitalist demonization of Communism, desparately trying to align Stalin with Hitler. Sorry if most here don't buy it.


Then some of you say , yes but they put govermetns that where more "capitalist" but then some other post said, that they put people from the old nazi regime in gov. ????? how could ex-nazis be in favor of the USA economic policy?

How could Nazi's be in favor of the U$ economic policies? You're kidding right.

Plenty of former Nazi's found their way into politics and corporations after the war at the behest of the U$. Look up a little history about the RAF's actions in Germany and find out who they were targeting. A few of the Nazi's were even given asylum here in the U$ after the war, going to work in the U$ military chemical and nuclear weapon labs.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 20 2003, 08:27 PM
El profe all that you are saying were made in reviosionistic Ussr.
Stalin died 1953
Hungarian rebellion was in 1956
Berlin wall was builded in 1961


Why do so many of you keep denying that Stalin was a mass murdered and commited genocide, when after the USSR wnet down files came out supporting these claims?

Here is the thread
The crimes of Stalin (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=5200)
You can read that and then think it again.


BUT DIDNT THE "GREAT" USSR under the great leader loved by el CHE , Stalin , keep all of eastern Europe to himself and East Berlin.


Did he keep them?I remember that he helped to turn those nations to sosialistic.And why Poland and other Eastern european nations were not part of Soviet Union?

Answer me this

Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck.


YET after all this many of U praise Stalin and the USSr like he was the greatest leader and like the USSR was the greatest country? i see many of you with the USSR flag as your avatar.

Stalin was great man.Revisionism is bad or have you seen any avatars where are Hrustsov's or Gorbatshov's face?
I already was corrected about the Hungarian rebellion.
I know the wall was built after stalin.

I saw the thread? they showed the crimes, but still soe call those crime lies???? LIES by who the ukrainan people or where those files made up .....

"Remember that he helped turn those nation socialist? "
YOu mean by killing any opposition to a communist gov. and installing teh president of his choice, like happened in Poland, Bulgaria , Romania, Poland, EAST GERMANY., Checkoslovakia, Hungary. HUNGARY WAS AN "independent" republic, and when people made the revolt against the communist leader, the USSR violentlyhelped the communist get back into power. :o :o :o ;)

Belorussia, Estonia, latvia, lithuania, Ukraine where all conquered by the USSR all at different times.

"Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck." :o
WRONG AGAIN. ;) , Finland wanted to stay neutral in the war, but USSR insisted that Finland Concede part of finland that was near Leningrad, they refused and the USSR began the WAR in 1939.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559...innish_War.html (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559416/Russo-Finnish_War.html)

"Stalin was great man" :o
So you support his murder of millions of people. :o , look at my second to last post to see his crimes.

[Soviet power supreme]

"Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck."
WRONG AGAIN. , Finland wanted to stay neutral in the war, but USSR insisted that Finland Concede part of finland that was near Leningrad, they refused and the USSR began the WAR in 1939.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559...innish_War.html


So why Stalin made a peace trety in 1940 with Finland instead of conquering it?Why he didnt conquer Finland in Autumn 1944?He could have done the but he didnt.Your link tells that too.Finnish army was weak.

[Fidel Castro]

El_profe, I believe this may be one point where you and I maight agree. Stalin was a complete and utter shit, however Che did not support Stalin and was in fact very critical at times of the Soviets, so do not even dare to hold the great Che in the same light as that monster who committed acts of mass genocide in the name of communism was as communist as Hitler in my oppinion.

I'll re-read your post now, as the point about Che loving Stalin compeled me to respond streight away. Che was a man of the people, he was a man who gave his own life trying to make this world a more just place. Che is the true face of Socialism, Stalin is nothing!

[Soviet power supreme]

http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/100MilVictims.htm


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM

El profe could you explain how your links are discrepancy?Other tells that 20 millions were killed and other 60 millions.


I saw the thread? they showed the crimes, but still soe call those crime lies???? LIES by who the ukrainan people or where those files made up .....

You didnt read it.If you are talking about ukrainian famine then ít was nazis' lie.


El_profe, I believe this may be one point where you and I maight agree. Stalin was a complete and utter shit, however Che did not support Stalin and was in fact very critical at times of the Soviets, so do not even dare to hold the great Che in the same light as that monster who committed acts of mass genocide in the name of communism was as communist as Hitler in my oppinion.



They never learn.

Che didnt criticise Stalin, he criticised Hrusthovs revisionism.

[Fidel Castro]

Are you suggesting Che would have approved of Stalin? If you read my post I do not say Che criticised Stalin but he did criticise the Soviet government of his time, and quite rightly so.

[Soviet power supreme]

Are you suggesting Che would have approved of Stalin? If you read my post I do not say Che criticised Stalin but he did criticise the Soviet government of his time, and quite rightly so.

Provide me links on this please.

[Bolshevika]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 20 2003, 10:54 PM

Are you suggesting Che would have approved of Stalin? If you read my post I do not say Che criticised Stalin but he did criticise the Soviet government of his time, and quite rightly so.

Provide me links on this please.
Yes, I would like to see this as well. Che was the one spreading Marxism-Leninism throughout Fidel's guerrilla group and was the one who helped forge ties with the USSR (Che became critical of Khrushchev after he saw his revisionism).

Che still kept close ties with Chairman Mao (a "Stalinist" by many accounts) and the DPRK's, DDR's governments.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 20 2003, 10:21 PM

"Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck."
WRONG AGAIN. , Finland wanted to stay neutral in the war, but USSR insisted that Finland Concede part of finland that was near Leningrad, they refused and the USSR began the WAR in 1939.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559...innish_War.html


So why Stalin made a peace trety in 1940 with Finland instead of conquering it?Why he didnt conquer Finland in Autumn 1944?He could have done the but he didnt.Your link tells that too.Finnish army was weak.
Hey you said why didnt he try to get finland. I already told you he did try for 1 year and then stopped. Conclusion you where wrong. Why he didnt try again i dont know. But once is enough, right?

[Maynard]

nazi regime in gov. ????? how could ex-nazis be in favor of the USA economic policy?



Nazi economic policy was mainly capitalist so was the US. The US government and the British government actually approved of Hitler's rule before it happened, from what I know. Politicians also have a remarkable ability to change there beliefs to whatever suits them or keeps them in power. It should be of no surprise.
In Germany "50% poorest only had a share of 4.5% of the wealth" 4 Million are unemployed. 7 million are bankrupt. That's great.
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/welfa...ml#povertypart1 (http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/welfare/povertyinjapan.html#povertypart1)


We had redstar, say the USSR was justified in keeping all those nations under Soviet oppression. That is just a stupid statement
When did he say that ?


Luzhiming, said i was right about stalin being a murderer, but he said Che was not a supporter of Stalin?
In other post ive been told many times that CHE supported Stalin??????
WHICH ONE IS IT?

Che made one quote which mentioned Stalin's name, which didn't really support any of his policies. I have not seen any support of Stalin in Che's righting. Only that one quote which is hardly evidence.


Mayard is still the defending the USSR , and wants proof of this genocide i am talking about:

Even if those numbers were true or statements, which would be highly debatable, it would not be Genocide as Disgustipated has pointed out. You are incorrect in defining it as genocide. There is no proof there of any genocide. I am no Marxist-Leninist but lets at least get the facts straight in these accusations instead of footnotes like ??? as there source, really credible that.


THE Last 2 post, dont know why tell me I am wrong about Stalin so they just say i am ifnoratn and uninformed.


You said he was crushing rebellions when he was dead and performing genocides when he wasn't.


YOU SAY MOST OF YOU DO NOT SUPPORT STALIN or the USSR, then why do i see flags and logos of the USSR as avatars?


The Hammer and Sickle represents the working class, not just the Soviet Union. We all support or are a part of the working class here.

[Fidel Castro]

Links? and what might I ask makes you presume I had to find this information on the internet? When I say Che criticised the USSR then it is probably the Kruschev criticism I am thinking about (It was quite a while ago I heard this). However, in my oppinion Stalin was not a communist, he was a tyrant who committed great evil under the pretence that it was in the name of Communism and for the good of the masses. He did do alot of good for the USSR, but we cannot forget the gulags and mass murder.

I very much doubt Che would have approved of Stalin&#39;s tactics. <_< , would anyone like to suggest as to why Che would have approved? Perhaps he had a fondness for killing millions that I did not know about?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 20 2003, 10:38 PM

El profe could you explain how your links are discrepancy?Other tells that 20 millions were killed and other 60 millions.


I saw the thread? they showed the crimes, but still soe call those crime lies???? LIES by who the ukrainan people or where those files made up .....

You didnt read it.If you are talking about ukrainian famine then ít was nazis&#39; lie.


The first link you gave was of an article somone wrote, i dont think he was talking literally about 100 million. And i dint give you that link i gave you a link to a site which had that link. The second link says 60 million. And it counts since 1917.

Ukranian famine a lie? here is alink tell me if they would be lying. http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/Great_Fam...ine/index.shtml (http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/Great_Famine/index.shtml)

And if what they did to the ukrainians is not genocide, i dont know what is. But lets say its not, okay, call it mass murders.

[redstar2000]

I said this...


The main reason that it was "better" to be an American satellite than a Russian satellite is that Americans paid for your servility with large aid programs. The Russians, having had most of their assets destroyed in the war, had little choice but to use force to keep their "allies" in line.

...which you somehow "interpreted" to mean this...


We had redstar, say the USSR was justified in keeping all those nations under Soviet oppression. That is just a stupid statement.

It certainly is...which is why I didn&#39;t say it.

Do they have a course in "reading with comprehension" in your school? If so, I think you need to enroll in it as soon as you can.

Just a friendly tip.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 02:50 AM
I said this...


The main reason that it was "better" to be an American satellite than a Russian satellite is that Americans paid for your servility with large aid programs. The Russians, having had most of their assets destroyed in the war, had little choice but to use force to keep their "allies" in line.

...which you somehow "interpreted" to mean this...


We had redstar, say the USSR was justified in keeping all those nations under Soviet oppression. That is just a stupid statement.

It certainly is...which is why I didn&#39;t say it.

Do they have a course in "reading with comprehension" in your school? If so, I think you need to enroll in it as soon as you can.

Just a friendly tip.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
Okay, just answer me this.
was stalin a mass murderer? just yes or no.

and did the USSR have a right to keep all those countries after WWII? yes or no.

[redstar2000]

Was Stalin a mass murderer? Just yes or no.

Why "just yes or no"? Do you get your notions of history from comic books?

So, let&#39;s try to put your question in some kind of coherent form: is there any evidence to suggest that Stalin or the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ever deliberately and consciously decided on and implemented a policy of indiscriminate mass murder?

I know of no such evidence...though it is possible that Stalin and the CPSU were guilty of "criminal negligence" with regard to the Ukrainian famine in the early 1930s.

The people who were executed in the 1930s (or who died in the labor camps of that era) were regarded, rightly or wrongly, as class enemies of the Soviet regime. The secret police didn&#39;t, as far as I know, just grab random people off the street and shoot them or send them to labor camps.

I&#39;m not, in any sense, a "Stalinist"...as you would know if you had read a few pieces from my website. Indeed, I view the entire Leninist paradigm as a deviation from the central ideas of Marx and Engels...and have no wish to emulate "Stalin&#39;s example".

But the spectacle of capitalist apologists pointing their own very bloody fingers at Stalin is unacceptable to me. The Stalinists, for all their many shortcomings, were actually trying to "build a new world".

The capitalists have always murdered for profit and only for profit. Except for the Nazis, of course. (&#33;)


and did the USSR have a right to keep all those countries after WWII? yes or no.

In their own eyes, they certainly did...at least as long as there were massive numbers of U.S. troops in Europe. You will recall that the victors of World War I (the U.S., France, England, and Japan) decided to "cap" their win with a simultaneous invasion of the young USSR in 1919-21.

You could hardly blame Stalin for being suitably prepared to meet a "2nd edition" of those invasions.

Well, maybe you&#39;d blame him, but I don&#39;t.

If you really want to understand history and not just repeat mindless clichés, you have to study it. You have to learn the complexities of how the USSR came into existence, what its material conditions were, etc.

It&#39;s not a matter of "justifying" or "condemning" Stalin...but understanding what Stalin and the USSR actually were. They weren&#39;t communists even though they sincerely thought they were.

As a rule, conservatives are not very good at getting past a theological conception of politics--to them, it&#39;s a matter of "good" (profitable) and "evil" (unprofitable). Naturally they regard the old USSR as "evil"...they couldn&#39;t make any money there. They see the "new Russia" as "good"...meaning vast opportunities for loot and plunder.

If you make the effort to actually dig into this stuff, you will learn a lot. But if you&#39;re content with the comic-book "thinking" of the Rush Limbaugh/William F. Buckley/George W. Bush "school"...then there&#39;s really not much hope that you&#39;ll ever understand anything.

As the saying has it: a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Soviet power supreme]

Hey you said why didnt he try to get finland.

Ummmm when? :blink:


I already told you he did try for 1 year and then stopped.

105 days isnt a year, its not even 1/3 of year.And I asked why he didnt conquer it when he could have done that if he would have just keep the war going on.


But once is enough, right?

If you look at the maps and see the Finland&#39;s location then you understand what strategial importance it have.Napoleon could have conquer Russia if he would have come from sea and from Finland.Nazis got right of passage in 1940 and they could support their northern army in Norway.When Barbarossa started Nazis attacked into USSR with aid of Finnish army using Finland as a passage.And Stalin hadnt a plan to conquer Finland, only occupy it.


Links? and what might I ask makes you presume I had to find this information on the internet? When I say Che criticised the USSR then it is probably the Kruschev criticism I am thinking about (It was quite a while ago I heard this). However, in my oppinion Stalin was not a communist, he was a tyrant who committed great evil under the pretence that it was in the name of Communism and for the good of the masses. He did do alot of good for the USSR, but we cannot forget the gulags and mass murder.

I very much doubt Che would have approved of Stalin&#39;s tactics. , would anyone like to suggest as to why Che would have approved? Perhaps he had a fondness for killing millions that I did not know about?[QUOTE]

Okay everybody knows that Che did criticised revisionistic Ussr.But he never criticised Stalin.And I wanted a source where Che criticised Stalin.

but we cannot forget the gulags


What would you have done to cappies or what Russians used "&#39;Kulaks"?

The first link you gave was of an article somone wrote, i dont think he was talking literally about 100 million[QUOTE]

I was talking about Soviet union number not overall.20 millions in that link.And yes Stephanie Courtois really claims that 100 millions were killed.


Why my quotes look like that?

[el_profe]

Redstar:
[/QUOTE]So, let&#39;s try to put your question in some kind of coherent form: is there any evidence to suggest that Stalin or the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ever deliberately and consciously decided on and implemented a policy of indiscriminate mass murder?


:o :o :o :o . did you see the link to genocidewatch.org? no evidence? :o . Okay, I know that i can send you a video tape with 1000 talking about the genocide they saw in the USSR. and you still wont believe it. Thats fine, you believe only what you want to believe. 2+2=5, right?

The people who were executed in the 1930s (or who died in the labor camps of that era) were regarded, rightly or wrongly, as class enemies of the Soviet regime. The secret police didn&#39;t, as far as I know, just grab random people off the street and shoot them or send them to labor camps.

So if a religious person or a capitalist civilian, is seen as a class enemy he is executed, how did they decide who is a class enemy. This is no different than the US grabbing somoene because they are terrorist. except in the US you still hear people complaining saying that they dont have the right to do that. IN ussr you complain about that you get killed.


and did the USSR have a right to keep all those countries after WWII? yes or no.
In their own eyes, they certainly did...

So in my eyes i think its right to kill 100 people, does that make it right. Well your analogy, everything is justified. Any Action taken by the USA is justfied, the holocaust is justified, putting a bomb in a school is justified.
I was not asking in their ayes. I was asking you. so please answer the question. YEs or no.

Youre right. they werent communist it was more like a totalitarianism which by definition opresses any opposing political espressions.

Soviet Power supreme:
[QUOTE]Hey you said why didnt he try to get finland.
Ummmm when?
whats the problem, it seems you have loss of memory. Here is what you said. "Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck."
He didnt, but he tried.



105 days isnt a year, its not even 1/3 of year.And I asked why he didnt conquer it when he could have done that if he would have just keep the war going on
Whats the difference, he tried to conquer them, he couldnt, it was hard. And after the war he ddint find the need to continue a war with the finnish which posed no threat to the Soviet Union.


If you look at the maps and see the Finland&#39;s location then you understand what strategial importance it have.Napoleon could have conquer Russia if he would have come from sea and from Finland.Nazis got right of passage in 1940 and they could support their northern army in Norway.When Barbarossa started Nazis attacked into USSR with aid of Finnish army using Finland as a passage.And Stalin hadnt a plan to conquer Finland, only occupy it.

Oh really, what the hell did i sya. THEY wanted finland to give them the part of finland that was close to Leningrad. I said what you said in 1 sentence.
If he didnt want to conqeur them, why did he start a war against them?.

[Soviet power supreme]

Hey you said why didnt he try to get finland.
Ummmm when?
whats the problem, it seems you have loss of memory. Here is what you said. "Why didnt Stalin conquered Finland if he was an imperialistic fuck."
He didnt, but he tried.


He could have conquer it in march 1940.The losses became great for finnish army.Why he didnt keep the war going on?


If he didnt want to conqeur them, why did he start a war against them?.
Finland did not accept the occupation thats why Stalin had to conquer it.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 21 2003, 06:50 PM



If he didnt want to conqeur them, why did he start a war against them?.
Finland did not accept the occupation thats why Stalin had to conquer it.

He could have conquer it in march 1940.The losses became great for finnish army.Why he didnt keep the war going on?
I dont know. Maybe because they had another conflict, against another country, i dont remember against who though, maybe you know?


Finland did not accept the occupation thats why Stalin had to conquer it.
:o oh, lol, thanks, that cleares it up. Thanks alot for that smart answer. I think the USA should tell mexico that they will ocuppy them and to accept occupation, if they refuse, they should try to conquer them.

Thats weird, hitler also wanted to occupy the UK, since they refused, he attacked them. those crazy brits how do they dare to refuse occupation.
Maybe they would of accepted occupation from the soviets??????? they should of asked.

[Soviet power supreme]

I dont know. Maybe because they had another conflict, against another country, i dont remember against who though, maybe you know?

No other conflict was in then where Ussr was involved.


I think the USA should tell mexico that they will ocuppy them and to accept occupation, if they refuse, they should try to conquer them.

Well yes if whole South-america would have change into a nazi regime.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 21 2003, 06:50 PM

If he didnt want to conqeur them, why did he start a war against them?.
Finland was closely linked with the Nazis. They also had military airbases some 40km from Leningrad. It&#39;s obvious what those bases would be have been used for if they were given the chance.

[Soviet power supreme]

True death and they did use them in continuos war.

The reason why Soviet Union didnt take whole Finland was because they got enough in Moscow&#39;s peace treaty.They got Karjala and so on they got Leningrad secured.


Ussr gave Porkkala back and they would never take Petsamo again if the brits wouldnt have the pressure them to do it.They didnt want it but brits say them to take it because britain had declared war on Finland in 1941.

[el_profe]

No other conflict was in then where Ussr was involved.
No. But WWII was going on and the USSR was trying to streghten its borders, that is why they started to exapnd by conquering nearby countries. to create a safety zone between them and germany. Still the USSR was not being attacked so the excuse that they needed part of finland is not valid.


Well yes if whole South-america would have change into a nazi regime.
?????????? wth.



Finland was closely linked with the Nazis.

Wrong. At the start of the war Finland decalred neutraility. they where attacked by the soveits in 1939. ONce their defenses weakend. they where force to sign a treaty which gave finnish terriotry to the USSR. In 1941 when Germany attacked the USSR , Finland joined that attack to get their territory back but stated they where only in a war with the USSR. but since they where helping germany the allies declared war on them.

[Soviet power supreme]

[/QUOTE]ONce their defenses weakend. they where force to sign a treaty which gave finnish terriotry to the USSR.[QUOTE]

Wrong.Hermann Göring told Finnish high command to surrender at any cost and save the army so that they can attack to Ussr and gain their lands back.

[redstar2000]

Did you see the link to genocidewatch.org? No evidence?

I went to that link and see that it asserts that the USSR apparently killed "an estimated" 50,000 Chechens in the period 1947-1953.

But it provides no evidence for that. I don&#39;t find it "out of the question"...it "could" have happened. Can you find something from the USSR that could be interpreted as direct evidence for the intent to kill Chechens simply because they were Chechens?

The atrocities of the "new capitalist Russia" in Chechnya have been extensively documented, of course.


So if a religious person or a capitalist civilian is seen as a class enemy, he is executed; how did they decide who is a class enemy?

I don&#39;t know; I wasn&#39;t there.

Neither were you.


I was not asking in their eyes. I was asking you; so please answer the question. Yes or no.

Well, if Stalin had asked my advice, I would have said "I wanna cookie." You understand I was 3 years old in 1945.

Now, looking back, I would have told "Uncle Joe" to hold onto Germany and the portion of Austria that the USSR occupied (including Vienna)...and let the rest go back to being capitalist countries (by the way, Czechoslovakia might have "gone communist" anyway...they had a lot of support there). Of course, before Joe did that, he should be sure and shoot all the people in those countries that actively supported the Nazis or who were active fascists in their own right.

Unlike America, who hung a few Nazis and jailed a few others and let the rest of the bastards back into power again.

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A site about communist ideas

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 07:51 PM
Guys, both sides were imperialistc. Even today the US and Russia are the top defense spenders in the world.
Yes&#33; Good, at least someone in this thread realizes the truth.