Dutch elections: apathy reigns

[Tim Cornelis]

The election will be held on 12 September.
This thread is a little soon perhaps, but I just saw two things worth mentioning and I would forget if I did not post it now.

An internet poll (not especially reliable) asking 'is voting useless?' showed the following results:

http://images2-telegraaf.nl/multimedia/archive/01047/article30_3_large_1047484d.jpg

Yes (green): 49%
No (black): 48%

Still, most will vote because of some misguided sense of 'democratic duty'.

Another news item showed that elderly people are increasingly not voting (dutch: http://nos.nl/artikel/413261-ouderen-ontevreden-over-politiek.html ).

[The Jay]

Interesting trend over there. Do you consider this to be a precursor to wide-spread popular discontent and action?

[Tim Cornelis]

Interesting trend over there. Do you consider this to be a precursor to wide-spread popular discontent and action?

That is difficult to tell. A significant part of the disillusioned are cynical right-wingers. But in comparison to other countries there has been little to no action in terms of mass demonstrations against austerity (merely scattered small-scale ones). In this sense, we have catching up to do and it is not unlikely that we will see this if the VVD (centre-right, liberal conservative party) is again elected as largest party. The left-wing vote is split over the neoliberalised social-democratic Labour Party and the anti-neoliberal social-democratic Socialist Party, which makes a VVD election as largest party likely.

If the VVD wins, disenfranchised SP voters may find other means to express their discontent other than voting.

[X5N]

Right-wingers are cynical and disillusioned in the Netherlands? With Geert and his blondeshirts running around?

[Tim Cornelis]

Right-wingers are cynical and disillusioned in the Netherlands? With Geert and his blondeshirts running around?

Perhaps it's like Southpark's episode 'Dances with Smurfs'. Cartman is always complaining about the school president, but when he himself is in a position of power it turns out 'he can't do shit'. Geert Wilders backed the cabinet for two years and the only achievements are that we can drive 130 km/h on certain highways and a loss of 110,000 jobs.

And of course many of these cynical right-wingers do support Geert Wilders, but not all.

[Comrade #138672]

Neoliberals are likely to win again. :(

Many people who were going to vote for the SP (Socialist Party) are switching to the PvdA (Labour Party with many neoliberal traits). All because of a single debate on television, people follow the herd like a bunch of sheep.

So the situation is getting worse.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The left-wing vote is split over the neoliberalised social-democratic Labour Party and the anti-neoliberal social-democratic Socialist Party, which makes a VVD election as largest party likely.

If the VVD wins, disenfranchised SP voters may find other means to express their discontent other than voting.

Part of the problem is that the SP isn't organizing social support outside parliament like SYRIZA is doing now.

[piet11111]

Part of the problem is that the SP isn't organizing social support outside parliament like SYRIZA is doing now.

The largest part of the problem is that the SP is not a meaningful alternative to the PVDA.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The largest part of the problem is that the SP is not a meaningful alternative to the PVDA.

Not an Alternative for who and why?

[piet11111]

Not an Alternative for who and why?

An alternative for the working class the SP is very much like the PVDA only without the taint of having been part of a government.

Most people appreciate what the SP is promising but they are skeptical if they will deliver seeing how they have never been in government before.

I am myself extremely skeptical about the SP mostly because of what jan marrijnissen said that if formed today it would not have been called the socialist party.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

An alternative for the working class the SP is very much like the PVDA only without the taint of having been part of a government.

Most people appreciate what the SP is promising but they are skeptical if they will deliver seeing how they have never been in government before.

I am myself extremely skeptical about the SP mostly because of what jan marrijnissen said that if formed today it would not have been called the socialist party.

Well, it seems to me that many on the left have hopes for this party. Of course we don't, but that doesn't matter. If the state-capitalist SP gets voted into government, it will have the Euro crisis on its desk and austerity measures to implement, and since the party seems to be a reformist state capitalist one, it will most likely go a bit like PASSOK did in Greece. The overall reformist SP getting elected to government now would mean years spared in dragging the public further towards the left. Only the question is whether once the party implements austerity measure to stay in power, the left wing of the SP will seek to make a vanguard party (which seems a possibility since the SP gives an impression of having a stronger left wing than PASSOK or other Social demos) or if there are any relevant revolutionary parties.

Of course this is speculation on the SP's inner party tensions, but supposing it gets government, it would have to be with the neo-liberal social dem PVDA, meaning it would be sucked into the power game of the bourgeois establishment. On the other hand, if it does not get power now and the conservatives-liberals do, this might not be so bad for the left-of-class-collaborationists, revolutionary leftists of Netherlands to have enough time to organise a decent anti-class-collaborationist, mass vanguard party that could effect meaningful change.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Btw. I personally think it would be bad development for revolution if the reformers (like the SP seems, the Socialist Party of France and SYRIZA have made moves towards) tried to and would succeed in turning the EU imperialist institutions into slightly better "taxed and more social" institutions, a "United European State" as the capitalist Social Democrats always say. The SPD has pushed for a "European army" instead of national armies, which would in effect mean a(n imperialist) superstate in capitalist institutions which could quickly degenerated into an outright fascist establishment, seeing as its not far off already.

[Sasha]

Sp is way more like syriza than it is like passok. Way more dieLinke than spd. It's a weird party in that its on one hand very top down in its hierarchy but also haves the most "activist"/grassroots membership.
And ofcourse they are just the left-wing of capital and the coalition system of dutch politics will force then to compremise even more with capital but calling them passok or pvda or new labour is for now really a disservice, they are for re-nationalisation of lots of public services, they are for a small military, they are for a system of income equalization.
With no expectations they will ever be more than the new old-labour I'm going to vote for them, something i would never do for the neo-liberal new-"labour" pvda.

[VirgJans12]

I'm voting SP. The funny thing is I keep getting a "vote VVD" advertisement on Revleft.

[Tim Cornelis]

Parties participating:
VVD. Liberal conservatism (centre-right to right-wing). Current seats: 31 (20.4%)
PvdA. Social-democracy (centre-left). Current seats: 30 (19.6%)
PVV. National conservatism (right-wing to far-right). Current seats: 24 (15.5%)
CDA. Christian democracy (centre-right to right-wing). Current seats: 21 (13.7%)
SP. Social-democracy (left-wing). Current seats: 15 (9.9%)
D'66. Social liberalism (centre). Current seats: 10 (6.9%)
GL. Green politics (left-wing). Current seats: 10 (6.6%)
CU. Social conservatism (centre). Current seats: 5 (3.3%)
SGP. Ultra-conservatism (right-wing to far-right). Current seats: 2 (1.7%)
PvdD. Animal rights (left-wing). Current seats: 2 (1.3%)
PPNL. “Piratism” (centre-left). Current seats: 0 (0.1%)
MenS. Spiritualism (centre-left). Current seats: 0 (0.3%)
NL. Localism/populism (?). Current seats: 0
LP. Libertarianism (right-wing). Current seats: 0
DPK. Populism (right-wing). Current seats: 0
50PLUS. Senior advocacy (centre-left). Current seats: 0
LibDem. Social liberalism (centre). Current seats: 0
AeuP. Euroscepticism (?). Current seats: 0
SOPN. Conspiracy theory, populism (centre-left to centre-right). Current seats: 0
PvdT. Populism (centre-left ??). Current seats: 0

[Tim Cornelis]

First 'prognosis':

http://images2-telegraaf.nl/multimedia/archive/01052/prognose_1052888q.jpg

[Die Neue Zeit]

Hard lessons learned:

1) The SP has to really organize and not rely on electoral mood swings.
2) Stricter public relations qualifications for leadership positions need to be put in place. Nobody who claims to be media-savvy should bumble in debates.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Damn, the VVD came out on top again, does this mean the final nail in the coffin of weed tourism (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/marijuana-sellers-target-stoner-voters-in-dutch-election-_-seeking-to-overturn-crackdowns/2012/09/04/6c622d70-f68c-11e1-a93b-7185e3f88849_story.html)? :crying:

[Sasha]

No i dont think so, the vvd will gladly drop the arch conservative line of the last coalition government and put back on its libertarian face to push through it econonic plans and give the pvda some of this stuff. also the experiment in the border regions is backfiring badly (the vvd major of maastricht is already advocating a partial end to the new weed rules), not to mention that this week a pretty high police detective was found liquidated with a weed plantage in his house, I expect this will fuel the legalization debate again.

But yeah, that will not really matter since we are all going to be unemployed with no social benefits soon so no money to get a smoke...

[fug]

So who won?
Which one is Wilders' party? What is Wilder's platform now? Where are the communist parties?

[Sasha]

So who won?
Which one is Wilders' party? What is Wilder's platform now? Where are the communist parties?


VVD won the most, its the party of our current PM Rutte and is a weird mix of right-wing ultra-libertarianism and staunch old-money conservatives its pretty similar as the current tory party in great-britain.

PvdA came in close second, they are our traditional social-dem party but took a hard neo-liberal new-labour turn about 20 years ago. their new leader is supposedly a lot more leftist (he is a new star, didnt as is tradition came up slowly through the party machine but came in directly in the parliament from greenpeace as the environmental specialist last elections before these ones, he is a nuclear physicist originally) but the fact he took the stage yesterday with all the former neo-liberal PvdA leaders should say something.

these two party have comfortably enough seats in parliament to form a coalition government but lack enough seats in the senate (who we wont have elections again for in the coming two years) so they probably will need to bring in a 3th party...

options;

PVV (wilders party), lost hard (almost half their seats) and unacceptable to the PvdA

SP (ex-maoist now populist social-democrats), where projected to win big time but after the elections became a two sided race between VVD and PvdA for the top spot barely clung on to their current 15 seats. unacceptable to the VVD.

CDA (christian democrats) our traditional centrist government party, clings very much to power but took such an unbelievable whooping that i cant imagine they will participate in a government this time around (esp with two clear winners), also mistrusted by the PvdA because they where in the outgoing hard-right coalition with VVD-PVV and mistructed by the VVD because they took a more leftist tone in these elections. but maybe "for the sake of the EU" they will join the coalition if their current minster of finance can stay in place.

D66, (progressive libertarians) most likely options, gained two seats coming in close behind pvv & sp, EU friendly, accetable to both VVD and PvdA

green-left, lost massively, probably unacceptable to VVD, not likely

all other party's are to specific and small and unacceptrable to one of the big two (aninmal rights party, elderly citizens party, evangelicals, hardcore protestant taliban)


complicating factor is that both VVD and PvdA won so big, and really tore in to each other in the election campaings (VVD and their supporting newspaper where trying to whip up a propper red scare about "the socialists!!!!) so negotiations will be hard but since there is really no other viable option they will work it out, either with the two of them banking on a win in two years in the senate race or with D66 or maybe CDA.

[Tim Cornelis]

No communist/far-left parties participated.

Non-voters >26%
VVD 26,6% (2.468.369) Liberal conservatism (centre-right to right-wing)
PvdA 24,8% (2.304.816) Social-democracy (centre-left)
PVV 10,1% (940.301) National conservatism (right-wing to far-right)
SP 9,7% (899.367) Social-democracy (left-wing)
CDA 8,6% (796.083) Christian democracy (centre-right to right-wing)
D66 7,9% (736.086) Social liberalism (centre)
CU 3,1% (292.033) Social conservatism (centre)
GL 2,3% (214.721) Green politics (left-wing)
SGP 2,1% (196.451) Ultra-conservatism (right-wing to far-right)
PVDD 1,9% (178.625) Animal rights (left-wing)
50PLUS 1,9% (175.310) Senior advocacy (centre-left)
PIRATEN 0,3% (30.178) “Piratism” (centre-left)
PVDM 0,2% (18.254) Spiritualism (centre-left)
SOPN 0,1% (12.805) Conspiracy theory, populism (centre-left to centre-right)
PvdT 0,1% (8.141) Populism (centre-left ??)
DPK 0,1% (7.564) Populism (right-wing)
LP <0,1% (4.107) Libertarianism (right-wing)
NedLok <0,1% (2.872) Localism/populism (?)
LibDem <0,1% (2.340) Social liberalism (centre to centre-left)
AEP <0,1% (2.035) Euroscepticism (?)
NXD <0,1% (68) (???)

5 municipalities have not yet counted votes (1.2% of the votes).

[Will Scarlet]

At least the Wilders bunch went down...

I have a question, is it apathy or disillusionment?
There's a difference, and I think it suits the ruling class to portray non voters as apathetic, ie not caring, not interested, indifferent, rather than disillusioned ie thinking it's useless to vote. I think the latter is a lot more prevalent.

Having said that 74% would be a pretty huge turnout in a UK election.

[Q]

The VVD won I think because: a) The last cabinet was most clearly a VVD cabinet, programmatically. The CDA was just "hanging on", without pushing much through of their own platform, at least overtly. b) The VVD was pretty much the only party having a clear political message in the campaign. All other parties resorted to platitudes or, like the SP, just had posters saying "Now SP", sometimes with Roemer's face on it. Clarity sells.

As for the other coalition partner (well, "supporter"), the PVV (Wilders' party): He abstained from most of the campaign, not taking part in most public debates. Also, he shifted course from emphasizing on muslim hatred to being anti-Europe. This didn't appeal to much of his electoral base though.

As for the SP: For months it looked like they were getting about 35 seats, but being vague and Roemer's blundering debate performance dropped support. Added to this came the polarity left-right and since the SP wasn't performing, the PvdA took over this position and therefore pushed the SP further down.

For the traditional base I can imagine that another factor of disappointment was its further watering down of the platform. Most importantly, the SP dropped its opposition to the raise of the retirement age going from 65 to 67. When this was eventually published during the campaign, it immediately translated in a drop of support. Although I'm not sure anymore if it was the turning point in favor of the PvdA.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I have a question, is it apathy or disillusionment?
There's a difference, and I think it suits the ruling class to portray non voters as apathetic, ie not caring, not interested, indifferent, rather than disillusioned ie thinking it's useless to vote. I think the latter is a lot more prevalent.

If that were the case, they would have spoiled their ballots, as opposed to staying at home.

[piet11111]

If that were the case, they would have spoiled their ballots, as opposed to staying at home.

The way i look at it voting is useless when they are all pro-austerity so why should i spend the effort of even going there to spoil my ballot when i can just stay at work so that i dont have to take an hour or so off for an exercise in futility.

[Ravachol]

If that were the case, they would have spoiled their ballots, as opposed to staying at home.

I stayed at home and enjoyed whatever part of the day I did not have to work. It was splendid. I did loot a bin of VVD promotional orange juice though which wasn't half bad. Better use of my time than this ridiculous circus.

Downside of their political hangover will be that the SP will probably turn it's recuperator engine up to 11 during any upcoming struggles in order to MOBILIZE TEH BASE!!11!!!! or whatever to keep the party machine going, prop up a few of the usual front groups and platforms and drag everyone naive enough to follow them into a long, senseless march towards nowhere.

[Ravachol]

People who actually care about this bullshit can find a neat google map which shows election districts by dominant party and a mouseover with vote percentages here:

http://www.google.nl/elections/ed/nl/results

Note the never-wavering dark yellow 'bible belt' of ultra-conservative SGP voters :laugh:

[Q]

People who actually care about this bullshit can find a neat google map which shows election districts by dominant party and a mouseover with vote percentages here:

http://www.google.nl/elections/ed/nl/results

Note the never-wavering dark yellow 'bible belt' of ultra-conservative SGP voters :laugh:

That is a pretty neat map that makes my inner risk-addict drool :p

[Die Neue Zeit]

The way i look at it voting is useless when they are all pro-austerity so why should i spend the effort of even going there to spoil my ballot when i can just stay at work so that i dont have to take an hour or so off for an exercise in futility.

Because you are making an effort? Because you are expressing measurable political discontent? Don't complain if the bourgeois press lumps your abstention with the abstention of the apolitical voter.

[piet11111]

Don't complain if the bourgeois press lumps your abstention with the abstention of the apolitical voter.

That seems like a mistake on their part led by wishful thinking that all non voters are just apolitical.

[PhoenixAsh]

I once again drew a bunny on my ballot.

Though the election results hardly came as a sursprise I was still able to be shocked by the way the elections were conducted. It became something of an American election circus between two parties. That is not a good thing.

People were being confronted with some titanic battle of epic proportions between Rutte VVD) and Samsom (PvdA)

What was clear is that the media created this image out of blatant fear of what they call the "populist groups". With that they mean parties like the SP and the PVV and especially anti-Europe attitudes.

[Ravachol]

Because you are making an effort? Because you are expressing measurable political discontent? Don't complain if the bourgeois press lumps your abstention with the abstention of the apolitical voter.

Who the fuck cares?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I once again drew a bunny on my ballot.

Well, at least you showed up! :thumbup1:


Who the fuck cares?

I was merely rendering a more correct version of the vulgar "If you don't vote, don't complain."

[piet11111]

I was merely rendering a more correct version of the vulgar "If you don't vote, don't complain."

Then i "voted" for the abstention "party" the only vote not going to a class enemy.

[Sasha]

Number of absentees; 3.313.495

Non valid ballots/ spoiled/ empty; 5.852

[Ravachol]

I was merely rendering a more correct version of the vulgar "If you don't vote, don't complain."

Yes, again: who the fuck cares? What is there for me that I can't complain about that I could if I did show up? (Disregarding the fact that I complain whenever I see fit)

Spoiling your ballot or voting blanco (which registers the same, as 'invalid votes') doesn't mean shit, the most it does is signal a number of invalid votes which, even if interpreted politically, will signal "I appreciate the game but not the players" and I don't appreciate the game in the least.

Not that 'signalling' anything matters at all, what's gonna happen next? Who's it gonna signal what to?

Also, in the light of the "If you don't vote, don't complain" bullshit:

efKguI0NFek

[Die Neue Zeit]

Number of absentees; 3.313.495

Non valid ballots/ spoiled/ empty; 5.852

There's a lot of political work to be done in this regard.

[Mather]

Following on from the debate Die Neue Zeit and Ravachol were having over voting, were there any active boycott campaigns during the election? Did any anarchists and anti-election activists have stalls outside voting centres, seeking to persuade people not to vote?

[Sasha]

Following on from the debate Die Neue Zeit and Ravachol were having over voting, were there any active boycott campaigns during the election? Did any anarchists and anti-election activists have stalls outside voting centres, seeking to persuade people not to vote?

Several anarchist groups plastered anti vote posters and graffiti, AFA plastered "do not vote for hate and fear" posters, these where mostly aimed at the (extreme-) right but our press releases constantly where very explicit in that all parties are complicit in the racist immigration pollicies...