Do you have to be an atheist?

[Philosophos]

I heard something the other day that made wonder: Do you really have to be an atheist so you can be a communist?

My friends who are older than me and already went to the army told me that if I go there and state that I'm a communist they will already think that I'm an atheist so they will put me on the back with the rest of the atheists.

Also they told me that if you really want to be a communist you have to be an atheist. Well I don't really think that this statement is very serious because they haven't studied Marx or Lenin or any other writer of communism, but I have to ask because they were too many of them I started to think that I might be wrong.

[Zostrianos]

No. Religion is a personal thing.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think it's arguable that you need to have an atheist outlook to really be a Marxist since materialism is so fundamental to it. But there is no requirement to be either a Marxist specifically to be a supporter of communism. And I think there are many people who do have spiritual beliefs which don't conflict with Marxism and these individuals have been able to hold both the materialist political principles along with their spirituality.

And religion in general is not a specific barrier to workers acting and organizing on behalf of their own emancipation so there will be quite a number of people making the revolution in the here and now (well when that time comes) while also having some spiritual ideas.

[black magick hustla]

yes. this is 2012, not 1462

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I don't see why being theistic doesn't make you a communist (although I disagree entirely with the idea that such beliefs are above criticism).

However, I would imagine that you'd have to be in opposition to the church. To say that you support both Communism and Pope Benedict is like saying that you support Anne Frank and Hitler.

[Blake's Baby]

'Communism' isn't the same as Marxism.

You can't be a religious Marxist, because the notion of class struggle being the motor of history is meaningless if you also believe that Magic Man in the Sky pokes his fingers into the World and mixes it up.

You can be religious and think we should all live together in peace and harmony and sharing. So you can be a religious communist. I do think however that any religious communism is by definition 'utopian', in that it doesn't rely on any rational basis of historical development, etc. It's just wishing that things were nicer.

[Igor]

You can't be a religious Marxist, because the notion of class struggle being the motor of history is meaningless if you also believe that Magic Man in the Sky pokes his fingers into the World and mixes it up.

You don't have to believe in god's interference in everyday things to be religious. If we use Christians as an example, like probably everyone will, it's actually quite basic Christian shit that God has granted humans a free will and they can do whatever they want with no divine intervention. Marxism is study of human history, its methods are not relevant to shit like afterlife and birth of life. I really don't see being religious at all contradictory with Marxism per se, even if some religions were.

[Philosophos]

However, I would imagine that you'd have to be in opposition to the church. To say that you support both Communism and Pope Benedict is like saying that you support Anne Frank and Hitler.

I'm an Orthodox not Catholic and I know both the good and the shitty things church did/does. As for Pope he must first resign from being a manipulator of the masses and then try to be a religion guide...

[RedAtheist]

Strictly speaking you don't have to be an atheist to be a communist. However it is contradictory to say on the one hand that you support a classless society and on the other hand worship a being who is charge of every other being, wasn't elected to such a position of authority by anybody and who will forever remain in this position of domination. Christianity (and all other monotheistic religions for that matter) posits the existance of an eternal, unchanging, class structure which dominates the entire universe and is supportive of such a structure.

Then there's the fact that Christianity in particular promotes all kinds of other ideas contrary to the goals of communism. These include the notion that humanity is inherently evil, that it cannot fix its own problems, that people should be universally loving and forgiving (even towards those who abuse them) and that men should dominate women.

I am not aiming, as some might alledge, to exclude Christians from progressive or communist movements. I simply want them to see that their religion is in conflict with progressive values so that they can think carefully about it and question it. I firmly believe that debate and disagreement is a good thing and should be encouraged. It should not be stifled due to the notion some people have that religious progressive are made of glass and will shatter apart if their religion is even slightly criticised.

[The Jay]

You don't have to believe in god's interference in everyday things to be religious. If we use Christians as an example, like probably everyone will, it's actually quite basic Christian shit that God has granted humans a free will and they can do whatever they want with no divine intervention. Marxism is study of human history, its methods are not relevant to shit like afterlife and birth of life. I really don't see being religious at all contradictory with Marxism per se, even if some religions were.


Christians believe that everything happens because God wants it to, not because of the dynamic interplay of man and his environment though they may try to do some apologetics to merge the two concepts. I suppose that one could be a deist and a marxist but not a theist, certainly not a theist that believes in active intervention.

[Igor]

Christians believe that everything happens because God wants it to

Not human actions, and as human actions define society, not developments in society. Free will is kind a big thing in most Christian denominations.

[Thirsty Crow]

Not human actions, and as human actions define society, not developments in society. Free will is kind a big thing in most Christian denominations.
And at the same time, it seems to me, most Christian denomination hold that history is going to come to an end - the Rapture, Apocalypse or what have you, in one way or another. I might be wrong.

But consider this: how is Christian theism then different from deism - if the Creator created the universe (and man) as it is - which implies also free will - and just leave it at that? Wouldn't that be deism mixed with specific morality and practice (prayer, for instance) based in belief in the transcendent?

Also, what you say contradicts the way sin is framed in Christianity - the clergy posit that there indeed is a God's will, and they function as its interpretor, while sin as it is, is a result of choice of course, but ultimately stems from the distance from God (and is to be "rewarded" in eternal life).

[Igor]

And at the same time, it seems to me, most Christian denomination hold that history is going to come to an end - the Rapture, Apocalypse or what have you, in one way or another. I might be wrong.

But consider this: how is Christian theism then different from deism - if the Creator created the universe (and man) as it is - which implies also free will - and just leave it at that? Wouldn't that be deism mixed with specific morality and practice (prayer, for instance) based in belief in the transcendent?

Yeah also there's shit tons of different denominations with lots of batshit stuff and then stuff that makes a lot more sense and I honestly just don't care enough to go and tell who can and who can't be a Marxist because of their religious beliefs. Things like the Rapture, Apocalypse and shit or any theological details are not something your average random Christian usually pays too much attention to. Seems like a waste of time to me to go and define who can be commie enough for us in things that don't really even matter

[citizen of industry]

Before man there was no conception of god (and man's time on earth is so small it amounts to a second or something when compared to the whole). God appears with man, and is created in man's image. No man, no god. Rather than "god creates man," it should be obvious that "man creates god."

Do you have to be an athiest? I'd say yes. Do you have to go after religious people, who use religious(man-made) teachings to better humankind? No. Do you go after religion in the hands of people who use it to defend reactionary positions? Yes. In the end, religion is on its way out.

[Teddyjer Ilyich Otterman]

Personally, I consider myself a Christian, but many would not consider me to be one, as my beliefs are far outside the mainstream. I don't think one HAS to be anything, spiritually, to be a Marxist. I fully realize that history is materialistic, and think it would have to be a rather petty God to be forcing people to follow a "divine right of kings" and a silly little pedophile in Rome spewing vitriole. I find it far easier to believe that it is impossible to be a Christian and a capitalist. Concepts like exploitation, unfair working conditions, austerity measures...how anyone can consider themselves spiritual and still support such blatantly hateful practices and institutions.

LIBERALISM is the opium of the people nowadays.

*shields himself from coming attacks* :tongue_smilie:

[leftistman]

You definitely don't have to be an atheist to be a socialist because there are so many different forms of socialism, some of which are not primarily based off of the theories of Marx or Engels. I still think that it's difficult, though, because the Church has always been a strong political power. Is it still the most powerful organization in the world? Religion does promote the idea that not all people are equal(as in religious leaders are agents of God and we must obey them completely). Now that I think about it, I suppose that perhaps you must be an atheist to be a communist or just against organized religion would be a better way to put it.

[Raúl Duke]

Let me put it this way, to be a communist not really. Much less to be a revolutionary (i.e. a worker who participates in the revolution and such), since even religious masses have undertaken religion.

But Marxism itself requires a materialist outlook which clashes with the religious outlook on things. Technically, you can't be a Marxist if you're religious but there are probably some religious communists out there who probably use a Marxian outlook to view things about the world around them.

Also, what RedAtheist said earlier...all of it.

Now if you want my personal opinion:

yes. this is 2012, not 1462

[#FF0000]

Yeah you can. It'd be dumb as heck but sure

[Thirsty Crow]

LIBERALISM is the opium of the people nowadays.

*shields himself from coming attacks* :tongue_smilie:
Attacks?
No one here would argue otherwise in the case of liberalism.


Yeah also there's shit tons of different denominations with lots of batshit stuff and then stuff that makes a lot more sense and I honestly just don't care enough to go and tell who can and who can't be a Marxist because of their religious beliefs.

First of all, I didn't say this but I think it is important, the whole conception of "X can't be communist/Marxist" is really naive and crude.
What we're dealing here are "internal" contradictions in a person's thought process. A valid case might be made that a materialist conception of history is incompatible with religious adherence - in certain cases (where really the only point to the religious practice is cultural habituation and/or means to achieve personal integrity or willpower).

Now, what I meant with that whole rapture thing - isn't that the basis of even the "mainstream" Christianity (as an example - I'm thinking Catholicism)? God's will exists --> the Church, especially its ordained ministers, are the interpretors --> the rest of the Church (as the community of believers) should follow the prescriptions. Does this describe how it works? If yes, then we're dealing with an "interventionist" Creator, one who guides history (albeit in...mysterious ways, presumably), and obviously we're dealing with a profoundly unscientific, idealist conception.

Now, as for how this relates to the political practice and thought of given religious communists...that's something slightly different, and complex.


Things like the Rapture, Apocalypse and shit or any theological details are not something your average random Christian usually pays too much attention to.


But I still think that this "average" Christian pays attention to the fact that God's will should be understood and ultimately enforced. That is, if the belief in the transcendent is actually based on the notions upheld by the religious community one belongs to. Again, I might be wrong.

And unfortunately, you didn't pick up on my analogy between Christianity (theism) as you presented it and deism. Maybe you wish to claim that most "average" believers are effectively deists?

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

You don't have to believe in god's interference in everyday things to be religious. If we use Christians as an example, like probably everyone will, it's actually quite basic Christian shit that God has granted humans a free will and they can do whatever they want with no divine intervention. Marxism is study of human history, its methods are not relevant to shit like afterlife and birth of life. I really don't see being religious at all contradictory with Marxism per se, even if some religions were.

Belief in immaterial spirits is antithetical to Marxism, Leninsm, and Trotskyism. You can support revolutionary causes and believe in god, but you cannot be a Marxist. There is really no way around this, comrade. Marxism is not just a study of human history. It provides a methodology to not only interpret the past but to change the future.

I have had brief back and forth with Comrade Sam of the small Trotskyist group, Revolutionary Regroupment. They recently fused with a small group of Brazilian comrades who see it as okay to have members that believe in god and are practicing Catholics. I think that would be true only under circumstances of mass recruitment. Otherwise, members that are to act as leaders of the proletariat to be influenced by mystical, idealistic and magical thinking seems to be a big problem to me.

The fact that religion exercises so much influence in the world today speaks to capitalism's utter failure in bringing humanity fully out of the Middle Ages. We have to do better in the future!