Abusive Porn

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

A question came to my mind a while back, while I was reading some of Revleft's porn threads. As we know, there are many different types of porn, and some of it is labeled as brutal, rough, etc.

This does seem awful, but if they're both consenting to it, is it really sexist? If there are women who like that, is it wrong?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I'm curious as to what others are going to say on the subject first as I personally like rough sex.

[Sea]

A friend of a friend of a friend of mine is a gay masochist and he really can't understand on what basis sexism can be alleged other than the fact that there's a woman involved, and we both agree it's rather ridiculous to accuse on that alone.

[Ostrinski]

There's nothing wrong with liking it rough in your own bedroom with your own partner, but the fact is that there is a market for this abusive type of porn, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's not just people that want to watch women enjoying themselves through the enactment of their own fantasies - there is something stimulative to them about women being subjugated and taken control of.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This does seem awful, but if they're both consenting to it, is it really sexist? If there are women who like that, is it wrong?

It's hard to say what's really being consented to in pornography. Or rather, it's hard to determine whether or not some element of coercion is involved. Some people are coerced to do things they're uncomfortable with purely because of their circumstances that they find themselves in (ie they need money). Others may just be coerced into doing something they don't want to do, full stop. I don't know how much that actually happens in the pornographic film industry, but it's definitely a relatively common occurence in prostitution.

But of course there are quite a few people who genuinely love being degraded and abused, both men and women alike. Outside of really amateur porn, though, I'd guess that those people are probably pretty rare...maybe not, though, I have no idea.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

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[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

It's hard to say what's really being consented to in pornography. Or rather, it's hard to determine whether or not some element of coercion is involved. Some people are coerced to do things they're uncomfortable with purely because of their circumstances that they find themselves in (ie they need money). Others may just be coerced into doing something they don't want to do, full stop. I don't know how much that actually happens in the pornographic film industry, but it's definitely a relatively common occurence in prostitution.

But of course there are quite a few people who genuinely love being degraded and abused, both men and women alike. Outside of really amateur porn, though, I'd guess that those people are probably pretty rare...maybe not, though, I have no idea.

Exactly. I meant it to mean people doing it because they want to. People who in bad conditions don't count.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I like rough sex and so do the girls that I sleep with generally, but even an idiot should be able to differentiate between pornography and a human sexual relationship as the former is a business with commodities and products and the latter (should be) a social act, between social beings, outside of economic relations. Sex is the closest of social relationships and pornography is a marketed, produced and obscure version of it that should be viewed as that and separate from 'sex' itself.

[Igor]

Rough isn't abusive and it can be abusive without being rough. Abusive porn is any kind of porn where the actors are abused in one way or another and it should go without saying that it's a bad thing.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

But in s&m relationships, there can be what is considered consensual abuse, as the receiver enjoys being abused in a sexual context. I know women who like being 'abused' sexually, but only within the context of sexual fantasy, practice and consent. This is what is portrayed in pornography but the factors behind the relations in the pornography industry are more complex than the relations in the sexual practice between individuals I'd say, hence why they should be understood separately.

Consent is harder to understand in industry terms where there are contractual and financial factors that play a role in saying 'yes'. A porn actor or actress is selling their labour power and, as such, the same complications arise within the socio-economic framework of sex work as within other forms of work under capitalism. For a comparative analogy: cooking for wages in a restaurant is quantitatively and qualitatively different to cooking in the home.

[Prometeo liberado]

Abusive porn is any kind of porn where the actors.......
Whooooooaaa there!!! When did all this "acting" stuff start happening?

[Jazzratt]

Exactly. I meant it to mean people doing it because they want to. People who in bad conditions don't count. It becomes a bit of a non-question then, surely? If you ignore the cases where the conditions are bad or there has been coercion then it becomes "is it wrong for someone to have sex with another consenting adult in a way they like and have consented to?" To which the answer is obviously "no."

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Whooooooaaa there!!! When did all this "acting" stuff start happening?

:lol:

Any way, my opinion is this. Typically, any casual browsing of any S&M or BDSM streaming site will tell you that it isn't just the female actors whom are under subjugation but also males actors in which the female actor is completely dominating and or humiliating the male actor. I think the question really should be, is extreme abusive porn in general reactionary (I'm not saying it is) due to the fact that it's a marketed commodity based up the subjugation of one human being by another.

[black magick hustla]

i dont like the uncritical view people have of sm. in sm relationships, there are way more male doms than female doms, and the whole idea of loving to be taken control of and humiliated is generally more accepted by females. there isa reason why probably most people who read fifity shades of grey are women. there are social reasons for this. that doesn't mean that you need to stop doing it because it is "wrong and degrading" buyt that the question begs a critical view of it, rather than just chalking it off as things people do in their bedroom

[Silvr]

@black magick hustla

First, I am not sure what you mean by SM relationships. Do you mean just purely the sexual kind, or the much, much less common thing where people actually are in relationships where they agree to go about their lives in this arrangement? I will assume you are talking about the strictly sexual kind, both because it is more relevant to the thread topic, and also because the other kind is such a marginal, fringe thing that it isn't really even worth discussing.


i dont like the uncritical view people have of sm. in sm relationships, there are way more male doms than female doms, and the whole idea of loving to be taken control of and humiliated is generally more accepted by females. there isa reason why probably most people who read fifity shades of grey are women. there are social reasons for this. that doesn't mean that you need to stop doing it because it is "wrong and degrading" buyt that the question begs a critical view of it, rather than just chalking it off as things people do in their bedroom

As for the bolded part, I think there are other, purely physical and anatomical reasons why this would be the case, actually. But even if you are right, and there are social reasons for it, what is there to say about it beyond that? It sounds more like an in for male feminists to shame women by pontificating about how they must be sexually damaged.

[Luís Henrique]

This does seem awful, but if they're both consenting to it, is it really sexist? If there are women who like that, is it wrong?

By this reasoning, how can marriage be sexist?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

It becomes a bit of a non-question then, surely? If you ignore the cases where the conditions are bad or there has been coercion then it becomes "is it wrong for someone to have sex with another consenting adult in a way they like and have consented to?" To which the answer is obviously "no."

I tend to think that any commercial relation - regardless of sex being involved or not - is abusive. The fact that commercial relations are usually "consensual" doesn't change that.

"Consensus" doesn't emerge in a vacuum, it is built within a society based in exploitation and abuse.

Luís Henrique

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

i dont like the uncritical view people have of sm. in sm relationships, there are way more male doms than female doms, and the whole idea of loving to be taken control of and humiliated is generally more accepted by females. there isa reason why probably most people who read fifity shades of grey are women. there are social reasons for this. that doesn't mean that you need to stop doing it because it is "wrong and degrading" buyt that the question begs a critical view of it, rather than just chalking it off as things people do in their bedroom
But you're assuming here that Fifty Shades of Grey is an adequate representation of SM relationships that can be reflected on, which it isn't. I agree that there should be a critical look at SM, as with anything, but looking at that book to understand the broad and complex sexual world of SM is like reading some popular murder fiction to understand 'murder' itself.

[black magick hustla]

@black magick hustla




As for the bolded part, I think there are other, purely physical and anatomical reasons why this would be the case, actually. But even if you are right, and there are social reasons for it, what is there to say about it beyond that? It sounds more like an in for male feminists to shame women by pontificating about how they must be sexually damaged.

not really. i don't think people should stop doing it because it is "degrading". iu just don't think it makes sense to chalk it off as a "bedroom thing" when obviously sexuality is affected by society etc etc

[Silvr]

OK, but that is just as true of vanilla sex as it is of this. And I really don't think the connection that you are assuming exists in this case necessarily does, or at least not in such a direct and superficial way. For example, I imagine boring vanilla sex is much more common in places where the position of women in society is actually much worse. But whats next, will you take a 'critical view' on different positions, and oral sex, and women who shave their legs, and what sort of underwear people choose to wear? Honestly, I really don't think the minutiae of peoples consensual sex lives actually is anyone's business, and the sort of people who find it necessary to 'critique' shit like this are almost invariably people who are fresh out of a Feminist university course.

[Silvr]

I am also assuming from your first post in here that we are talking about sex and not porn, by the way, as the latter is obviously a different issue.

[black magick hustla]

OK, but that is just as true of vanilla sex as it is of this. And I really don't think the connection that you are assuming exists in this case necessarily does, or at least not in such a direct and superficial way. For example, I imagine boring vanilla sex is much more common in places where the position of women in society is actually much worse. But whats next, will you take a 'critical view' on different positions, and oral sex, and women who shave their legs, and what sort of underwear people choose to wear? Honestly, I really don't think the minutiae of peoples consensual sex lives actually is anyone's business, and the sort of people who find it necessary to 'critique' shit like this are almost invariably people who are fresh out of a Feminist university course.

of course it is true of "vanilla sex", in many ways its worse or at least similar to bdsm in terms of dynamics. look, i don't think political people should avoid bdsm or anything like that, but there is is this weird thing between radicals where everyone is relentless about criticizing aspects of society, but when it comes to bdsm, they either assume its "ok" because it is consensual and a lot of hipsters love that shit or they have some boring ass political defense about the liberatory aspects of it. i don't see why you keep turning it into "it is nobody's buisness" when we aren't really talking about a particular's person sex life, but sex in general. i don't know if it has anything to do with university courses or not, but i've never heard someone talk about bdsm in those terms in college, in fact every asshole with a liberal arts degrees writes laudatory essays about it

[black magick hustla]

in short, i don't know what is strange/genderstudenty to acknowledge there is something weird/disturbing about people simulating rape and getting off of it. nobody is arguing that it is "wrong" to pretend to slit someone's throat in a violent videogame, but nobody pretends there are no upsetting social aspects about it.

[Silvr]

Because it seems like 'critiques' about this sort of thing, same with a lot of feminist 'critiques' of pornography, are really just moralism dressed up as political analysis. I mean, "I personally find it weird and disturbing, and it is influenced by society[1] (http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2012/08/fifty-shades-of-grey-outsells-harry-potter/_jcr_content/par/cn_contentwell/par-main/cn_blogpost/cn_float_container/cn_image.size.fifty-shades-of-grey.png)" That is your critique. I wouldn't really say it is particularly valuable insight.

[black magick hustla]

Because it seems like 'critiques' about this sort of thing, same with a lot of feminist 'critiques' of pornography, are really just moralism dressed up as political analysis. I mean, "I personally find it weird and disturbing, and it is influenced by society[1] (http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2012/08/fifty-shades-of-grey-outsells-harry-potter/_jcr_content/par/cn_contentwell/par-main/cn_blogpost/cn_float_container/cn_image.size.fifty-shades-of-grey.png)" That is your critique. I wouldn't really say it is particularly valuable insight.
:shrugs:, valuable to who? i think it is more than me finding "simulating rape" disturbing, there is a whole lot of structural/material reasons behind why people find feelings of humiliation, and acted out rape exciting that are connected to bigger questions about society. you are taking a very simple and self-evident thesis and making it seem like if its my phd thesis. communists have been talking about love life and how fucked up it is since alexandra kollontai wrote about how men have unhealthy expectations for female partners. nobody is telling anybody to police their love lives or whatever, there is a lot of things i've done i find that are product of things being fucked up but i don't feel bad about having done them.

[Philosophos]

The thing about rough sex is just psychological. It's like you say I was born gay. You can't do anything about it. You saw some things that changed your character even if you were 5 or 10 or 15.

Also the things you like in sex represent the job you want to do. For example if you like beating up people generally causing pain to them you are going to make an excelent surgeon. If you like anal sex (giving or taking) you are going to make an excelent artist.

The same goes vice versa for the profession you are doing and your personality. For example I'm a guy and I'm an actor. When a guy is an artist (actor, screenwriter, poet, singer, dancer, sculptor etc) he has something called "envy of the unerus" ( I don't know if this is the actual name in english but it is in Greece). That means that I kinda hate women because they can have a baby (the ultimate creation in this world) and I can't, so I try to make something that looks like a baby (my screenplay, my statue, my painting etc). That means I'm sensitive and a little more feminim than other guys around.

The same goes for the people who like rough sex even if they are women or men. Even though I'm sensitive and romantic there were quite a few times that I slaped some girls really rough because they wanted it and I felt like doing it. It's not a sexist thing it's just who you are and what you like.

[Quail]

I think the problem with saying "you like what you like, it's just sex" is that you're ignoring the wider context of sex and relationships. Things don't happen in a bubble, they happen in a patriarchal society. I'm sure there is a lot of healthy, consensual sex going on, but I'm sure there's a lot of less healthy sex going on. When I was younger and inexperienced I often had sex where I was basically a glorified blow-up doll because it wasn't enjoyable to me, my partners didn't bother trying to make it enjoyable for me and I didn't feel comfortable telling them it wasn't enjoyable. I don't know if some of that comes from teenage guys watching porn and seeing women pretending to enjoy getting pounded with a foot long penis and coming to the conclusion that most women orgasm from penetrative sex alone with no problem. I don't know really, but on my part I felt that I needed to please those men and that my pleasure wasn't really as important, so part of the reason I wasn't enjoying sex was that I was seeing myself as an object to please my partner rather than a person engaging in a mutually enjoyable activity. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has done that.

[Philosophos]

I think the problem with saying "you like what you like, it's just sex" is that you're ignoring the wider context of sex and relationships. Things don't happen in a bubble, they happen in a patriarchal society. I'm sure there is a lot of healthy, consensual sex going on, but I'm sure there's a lot of less healthy sex going on. When I was younger and inexperienced I often had sex where I was basically a glorified blow-up doll because it wasn't enjoyable to me, my partners didn't bother trying to make it enjoyable for me and I didn't feel comfortable telling them it wasn't enjoyable. I don't know if some of that comes from teenage guys watching porn and seeing women pretending to enjoy getting pounded with a foot long penis and coming to the conclusion that most women orgasm from penetrative sex alone with no problem. I don't know really, but on my part I felt that I needed to please those men and that my pleasure wasn't really as important, so part of the reason I wasn't enjoying sex was that I was seeing myself as an object to please my partner rather than a person engaging in a mutually enjoyable activity. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has done that.

It's all about what kind of parents you had. If you had a mother that was saying marry a fool so he can buy you stuff and then you can cheat on him and have your life is a bad example because it makes men look like a burden. At the same time if men had a father who wanted them to be "studs" and get sex with all the girls that he sees then we have a problem again.... That's how sexual problems begin and why people are not comfortable with their sexuality

[Silvr]

The thing about rough sex is just psychological. It's like you say I was born gay. You can't do anything about it. You saw some things that changed your character even if you were 5 or 10 or 15.

Also the things you like in sex represent the job you want to do. For example if you like beating up people generally causing pain to them you are going to make an excelent surgeon. If you like anal sex (giving or taking) you are going to make an excelent artist

Seems legit.

[black magick hustla]

The thing about rough sex is just psychological. It's like you say I was born gay. You can't do anything about it. You saw some things that changed your character even if you were 5 or 10 or 15.

Also the things you like in sex represent the job you want to do. For example if you like beating up people generally causing pain to them you are going to make an excelent surgeon. If you like anal sex (giving or taking) you are going to make an excelent artist.

The same goes vice versa for the profession you are doing and your personality. For example I'm a guy and I'm an actor. When a guy is an artist (actor, screenwriter, poet, singer, dancer, sculptor etc) he has something called "envy of the unerus" ( I don't know if this is the actual name in english but it is in Greece). That means that I kinda hate women because they can have a baby (the ultimate creation in this world) and I can't, so I try to make something that looks like a baby (my screenplay, my statue, my painting etc). That means I'm sensitive and a little more feminim than other guys around.

The same goes for the people who like rough sex even if they are women or men. Even though I'm sensitive and romantic there were quite a few times that I slaped some girls really rough because they wanted it and I felt like doing it. It's not a sexist thing it's just who you are and what you like.

i give it a 9/10, would read troll again

[Thirsty Crow]

i give it a 9/10, would read troll again
You have to admit, the Freud reference is kinda cool.

[Luís Henrique]

Also the things you like in sex represent the job you want to do. For example if you like beating up people generally causing pain to them you are going to make an excelent surgeon. If you like anal sex (giving or taking) you are going to make an excelent artist.

Yes? What correlation could there be?

Seriously, there are much more people who like anal sex than there are excellent artists. Or reasonable artists. Or even just plain lousy artists, for what is worth.


The same goes vice versa for the profession you are doing and your personality. For example I'm a guy and I'm an actor. When a guy is an artist (actor, screenwriter, poet, singer, dancer, sculptor etc) he has something called "envy of the unerus" ( I don't know if this is the actual name in english but it is in Greece). That means that I kinda hate women because they can have a baby (the ultimate creation in this world) and I can't, so I try to make something that looks like a baby (my screenplay, my statue, my painting etc). That means I'm sensitive and a little more feminim than other guys around.

Same for this. It is just plain bullshit; if that was the case we would not see female artists.

Luís Henrique

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

A question came to my mind a while back, while I was reading some of Revleft's porn threads. As we know, there are many different types of porn, and some of it is labeled as brutal, rough, etc.

This does seem awful, but if they're both consenting to it, is it really sexist? If there are womyn who like that, is it wrong?

Why would it be sexist to womyn? Isn't it a bit sexist to assume that women need chauvinistic patriarchy deciding how delicate a flower they are, assuming that due to them being the "weaker, fairer sex" :rolleyes: they may not be able to make such a choice in their own sexual lives.

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

Bottom line, it's a womyn's body in her sexuality as much as it is in abortion. It's ultimately her right to choose.

[Quail]

It's all about what kind of parents you had. If you had a mother that was saying marry a fool so he can buy you stuff and then you can cheat on him and have your life is a bad example because it makes men look like a burden. At the same time if men had a father who wanted them to be "studs" and get sex with all the girls that he sees then we have a problem again.... That's how sexual problems begin and why people are not comfortable with their sexuality
No, it isn't. It's about the experiences I had when I was growing up and relatively little to do with my parents.

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

No, it isn't. It's about the experiences I had when I was growing up and relatively little to do with my parents.

I'd say it is even possibly just your general inclination; Afterall, couldn't a similar argument be utilized to call homosexuality a "choice"?

[Quail]

I'd say it is even possibly just your general inclination; Afterall, couldn't a similar argument be utilized to call homosexuality a "choice"?
Not really because the way I viewed sex was heavily influenced by the way my first boyfriend treated me. He was an abusive asshole who sexually assaulted me. My general inclination now is to view sex as a mutually enjoyable act and I no longer see myself as a sexual object that exists to please men.

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

Not really because the way I viewed sex was heavily influenced by the way my first boyfriend treated me. He was an abusive asshole who sexually assaulted me. My general inclination now is to view sex as a mutually enjoyable act and I no longer see myself as a sexual object that exists to please men.

That's very strong of you to have overcome such a hardship. You have shown your strength in not letting some asshole get to the better of you, so that's very commendable.