Marx's Relationship with Bakunin?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Would anyone know of (or be able to dig up) some information Marx's personal relationship with Mikhail, aside from their debates? did Bakunin dislike Marx, or consider him an ally of the socialist movement (and vice versa)?

After reading them both, it seems to me that they both ultimately had the same end-goal in mind. It's just that they examined from different standpoints and had opposing ideas on how to get there.

[Comrade Jandar]

They were secretly gay lovers but Bakunin slept around and this led to the conflict between anarchism and marxism that we still experience today

(Someone needs to write an erotic Marx/Bakunin fan fiction.)

[Fourth Internationalist]

They were secretly gay lovers but Bakunin slept around and this led to the conflict between anarchism and marxism that we still experience today

(Someone needs to write an erotic Marx/Bakunin fan fiction.)

I thought Marx was homophobic?

[MustCrushCapitalism]

I'm pretty sure Bakunin's primary criticism of Marx was something along the lines of "Marxists support centralization of credit into the hands of the state, central banking is Jewish, Jews are evil, therefore Marxism is an evil Jewish conspiracy".

But yeah, he did have some more detailed criticisms than that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Critique_of_Marxism) The Marx-Bakunin split was essentially what created the divide between modern Marxism and anarchism.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Critique_of_Marxism)

[jookyle]

I can't remember where I read it, it may have been a excerpt from a Marx bio on Marxists.org, but it said that the two did not see themselves as bitter enemies and claimed that there had been several friendly letters exchanged between the two.


After reading them both, it seems to me that they both ultimately had the same end-goal in mind. It's just that they examined from different standpoints and had opposing ideas on how to get there.

That's basically it. Anarchists and Marxists basically have the same ultimate goal in mind. (Except like, the anarcho-capitalists/individualists) The disagreement is on the process.

[Geiseric]

Bakunin joined the 1st international, then left to form a cult around himself, after denying the course of action which would have led to the SPD, and the advancement of socialist politics worldwide through aggitation in parliament. I wouldn't say he's the best example of anarchism, i'd point to the anarcho syndicallists for inspiration.

Anyways, Bakunin was a narcissistic anti semetic nut, Marx was a depressed, obsessed alcoholic, i'm sure they got along fine. What's more important is how they got besides their differences to further the class struggle.

[Robespierres Neck]

They were secretly gay lovers but Bakunin slept around and this led to the conflict between anarchism and marxism that we still experience today

(Someone needs to write an erotic Marx/Bakunin fan fiction.)

Speaking of that, I read somewhere a while ago that Bakunin had a secretive homosexual relationship with another anarchist. It came about through letters they wrote to each other. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Caj]

I'm pretty sure Bakunin's primary criticism of Marx was something along the lines of "Marxists support centralization of credit into the hands of the state, central banking is Jewish, Jews are evil, therefore Marxism is an evil Jewish conspiracy".

Actually, Bakunin's objections to Marxism, although I completely disagree with them, amounted to much more than the mere anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that are so often falsely presented as the basis of his disagreements with Marx. To say that Bakunin's anti-Semitism formed his "primary criticism" of Marx would be like saying that the Marxists' "primary criticism" of Bakunin was the xenophobic accusation that he was a "Russian agent."

[o well this is ok I guess]

They were secretly gay lovers but Bakunin slept around and this led to the conflict between anarchism and marxism that we still experience today

(Someone needs to write an erotic Marx/Bakunin fan fiction.) Marx liked to be on top, but Bakunin liked horizontal positions.

[Comrade Samuel]

Marx liked to be on top, but Bakunin liked horizontal positions.

There could literally be an entire thread for revolutionairy erotic fan fiction on this site and nobody would even flinch...

Can we return to topic though? I've been meaning to look into some of Bakunin's work to see exactly how he contradicted marx's method of achieving their mutual goal (which was communism if I'm not mistaken) any suggestions?

[Engels]

I can't post any links yet but libcom has some good articles that provide a rather balanced analysis of the Marx-Bakunin conflict:

-Marx, Bakunin, and the Question of Authoritarianism
-The Bakunin-Marx split in the 1st International
-The philosophical roots of the Marx-Bakunin conflict

(Just google the titles)

[¿Que?]

The problem that I see is that all those people who backed Marx in the big debate, I mean, that was a little before WWI, right? when all the social democrats would backstab Lenin or something?

[Robespierres Neck]

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/1872/karl-marx.htm

[Caj]

Anyway, to actually address the OP's question, Bakunin, although being in absolute disagreement with Marx on the question of the state, greatly admired Marx and his works. Bakunin accepted historical materialism and Marx's analysis of capitalism and was responsible for translating both the Manifesto and volume one of Capital into Russian.

Here's some quotes from Bakunin on Marx:


Bakunin on Anarchism[/I], edited by Sam Dolgoff, p. 25"]As far as learning was concerned, Marx was, and still is, incomparably more advanced than I. I knew nothing at that time of political economy, I had not yet rid myself of my metaphysical aberrations, and my socialism was only instinctive. Although younger than I, he was already an atheist, a conscious materialist, and an informed socialist. . . . We saw each other often. I greatly respected him for his learning and for his passionate devotion -- though it was always mingled with vanity -- to the cause of the proletariat. I eagerly sought his conversation, which was always instructive and witty when it was not inspired by petty hate, which alas! was only too often the case. There was never any frank intimacy between us -- our temperaments did not permit it. He called me a sentimental idealist, and he was right; I called him vain, perfidious, and cunning, and I also was right.


Marx as a thinker is on the right path. He has established the principle that juridical evolution in history is not the cause but the effect of economic development, and this is a great and fruitful concept. Though he did not originate it -- it was to a greater or lesser extent formulated before him by many others -- to Marx belongs the credit for solidy establishing it as the basis for an ecnomic system. . . . Quite possibly Marx could construct a still more rational system of liberty [than Proudhon], but he lacks the instinct of liberty -- he remains from head to foot an authoritarian.

Marx, likewise, didn't always consider Bakunin an enemy. In Neue Rheinische Zeitung, dated February 14, 1849, he referred to Bakunin as "our friend[.]"

[Caj]

The problem that I see is that all those people who backed Marx in the big debate, I mean, that was a little before WWI, right? when all the social democrats would backstab Lenin or something?

What? :confused:

[¿Que?]

Ok, well, I'm not very historically minded, I guess.

In the first international, Bakunin gets expelled.

First international dissolves, not sure why.

Second international, a little over ten years later.

World War 1 begins 30 years later and in two years the second internation dissolves.

Before that happens, though, Lenin would confront the the social democrats over the issue of supporting bourgeois democracies in WW1, instead of a united working class position against the war.

Forty years. I'm 36.

[The Idler]

I can't post any links yet but libcom has some good articles that provide a rather balanced analysis of the Marx-Bakunin conflict:

-Marx, Bakunin, and the Question of Authoritarianism
-The Bakunin-Marx split in the 1st International
-The philosophical roots of the Marx-Bakunin conflict

(Just google the titles)
http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/marx-bakunin-and-question-authoritarianism-david-adam-2010
is highly recommended

[¿Que?]

http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/marx-bakunin-and-question-authoritarianism-david-adam-2010
is highly recommended
Great critical piece about Bakunin. I remember seeing this posted on anarchistnews back when I couldn't read more than a single page of text at a time. I certainly feel more informed than before I read it.

Major thanks Idler!