Disabled girl arrested for desecrating the Quran

[Zostrianos]

More Islamic insanity from Pakistan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19311098

Pakistani police have arrested a mentally disabled 11-year-old girl after a mob accused her of desecrating pages of the Koran.
The mob demanded the Christian girl's arrest and threatened to burn down Christian homes outside the capital Islamabad, local media say.
Officials said the girl could not properly answer police questions.
Her parents have been taken into protective custody following threats and other Christian families have fled.
It is thought that the girl has Down's syndrome.
Paul Bhatti, Pakistan's minister for National Harmony, told the BBC that the girl was known to have a mental disorder and that it seemed "unlikely she purposefully desecrated the Koran".
"From the reports I have seen, she was found carrying a waste bag which also had pages of the Koran," he said.
"This infuriated some local people and a large crowd gathered to demand action against her. The police were initially reluctant to arrest her, but they came under a lot of pressure from a very large crowd, who were threatening to burn down Christian homes."
He said more than 600 people have fled from the Christian neighbourhood.
Rights activists have urged Pakistan to reform its controversial blasphemy laws, under which a person can be jailed for life for desecrating the Koran.
Many of those accused of blasphemy have been killed by violent mobs, while politicians who advocate a change in legislation have also been targeted.
Last year, Shahbaz Bhatti, the minister for minority affairs, was killed after calling for the repeal of the blasphemy law.
His death came just two months after the murder of Punjab Governor Salman Taseer, who also spoke out about the issue.

[cynicles]

Good thing the US made sure to arm and unstable country like Pakistan with nuclear weapons after years of corrupting their political system and working with Saudi Arabia to cultivate fundamentalists for capitalism's jihad against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. I feel so much safer because of it! Not like I do with Iran!

[Princess Luna]

I am beginning to feel less and less bad about the Americans burning those Qurans in a garbage dump, because when you value paper and ink over human life you deserve to have your holy objects desecrated. No offense to moderate Muslims.

[Positivist]

I am beginning to feel less and less bad about the Americans burning those Qurans in a garbage dump, because when you value paper and ink over human life you deserve to have your holy objects desecrated. No offense to moderate Muslims.

Islam is ridiculous, but only equally ridiculous to the religion which's adherents are burning the Korans.

[Zostrianos]

I am beginning to feel less and less bad about the Americans burning those Qurans in a garbage dump, because when you value paper and ink over human life you deserve to have your holy objects desecrated. No offense to moderate Muslims.

When you react to perceived insults by committing murder, your position no longer deserves any respect. Especially during the Muhammad cartoons thing, when nearly 100 people were murdered as a result of those cartoons.

The problem with Pakistan in particular is that Islamic fundamentalism has become the societal norm, and it seems most citizens support it.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Yo, can the Atheists and revolutionaries of Pakistan seriously get there shit together and just start taking care of these insane fucks? I swear they take their fan fiction hobby to absurd levels.

[Zostrianos]

Yo, can the Atheists and revolutionaries of Pakistan seriously get there shit together and just start taking care of these insane fucks? I swear they take their fan fiction hobby to absurd levels.

I don't think they have the power or the numbers. From what I understand, being a non-Muslim or atheist in Pakistan these days is like living with a gun pointed at your head. The Hindus are fleeing to India in huge numbers because life has become intolerable. They even air conversions to Islam on tv nowadays, possibly to send a message to the remaining non-muslims that their time is up:
http://www.chakranews.com/conversion-of-hindu-boy-to-islam-was-broadcast-live-on-pakistani-media/3048

[Positivist]

Yo, can the Atheists and revolutionaries of Pakistan seriously get there shit together and just start taking care of these insane fucks? I swear they take their fan fiction hobby to absurd levels.

I'm guessing that the Pakistani athesit community is Pakistan isn't exactly thriving let alone the revolutionary community.

[Leftsolidarity]

Yo, can the Atheists and revolutionaries of Pakistan seriously get there shit together and just start taking care of these insane fucks? I swear they take their fan fiction hobby to absurd levels.

You mean the general population?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't think they have the power or the numbers. From what I understand, being a non-Muslim or atheist in Pakistan these days is like living with a gun pointed at your head. The Hindus are fleeing to India in huge numbers because life has become intolerable. They even air conversions to Islam on tv nowadays, possibly to send a message to the remaining non-muslims that their time is up:
http://www.chakranews.com/conversion-of-hindu-boy-to-islam-was-broadcast-live-on-pakistani-media/3048

I would settle for individual direct action, anything, this shit is despicable; she's fucking disabled. If no one legitimately sees anything wrong with this in terms of the general population then that is without a doubt collective psychosis.

[Zostrianos]

Update: the girl was framed by a local Imam

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19454739

Pakistani police have arrested an imam accused of planting burnt pages of the Koran in the bag of a Christian girl accused of blasphemy, officials say.
The girl was detained two weeks ago near the capital Islamabad after an angry mob demanded she be punished.
However, a witness has testified that imam Khalid Chishti put the pages in the bag himself, local media say.
The case of the girl, named as Rimsha, who is said to be about 14, has sparked international condemnation.
A report by a government-appointed medical board seen by the BBC suggests the girl has a mental age of less than 14.
Earlier this week, a court extended Rimsha's detention at a maximum-security prison by a further two weeks.
Her father has said he fears for his daughter's life and for the safety of his family. He has called on Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari to pardon her.
Rimsha's parents have been taken into protective custody following threats, and many other Christian families have fled the neighbourhood.
Pakistan's strict blasphemy laws are often used to settle personal vendettas, correspondents say.
Last year two leading politicians were assassinated after speaking out against the legislation.

[Crux]

When you react to perceived insults by committing murder, your position no longer deserves any respect. Especially during the Muhammad cartoons thing, when nearly 100 people were murdered as a result of those cartoons.

The problem with Pakistan in particular is that Islamic fundamentalism has become the societal norm, and it seems most citizens support it.
This is an idealist reading of religion and IMHO plays into the hands of the far right.
Not saying that the religious far right in Pakistan isn't a problem too, comrade, but they are not motivated by any adherence to the Divine, as the Imam's double play clearly shows.

I very much like this Marx quote: "I requested further that religion should be criticised in the framework of criticism of political conditions rather than that political conditions should be criticised in the framework of religion, since this is more in accord with the nature of a newspaper and the educational level of the reading public; for religion in itself is without content, it owes its being not to heaven but to the earth, and with the abolition of distorted reality, of which it is the theory, it will collapse of itself. Finally, I desired that, if there is to be talk about philosophy, there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogy man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people. "

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

This is an idealist reading of religion and IMHO plays into the hands of the far right.
Not saying that the religious far right in Pakistan isn't a problem too, comrade, but they are not motivated by any adherence to the Divine, as the Imam's double play clearly shows.

I very much like this Marx quote: "I requested further that religion should be criticised in the framework of criticism of political conditions rather than that political conditions should be criticised in the framework of religion, since this is more in accord with the nature of a newspaper and the educational level of the reading public; for religion in itself is without content, it owes its being not to heaven but to the earth, and with the abolition of distorted reality, of which it is the theory, it will collapse of itself. Finally, I desired that, if there is to be talk about philosophy, there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogy man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people. "

I tend to think Marx's critique on this can be taken too far. While it is true that material conditions largely determine how people approach the divine, it's not like we should ignore the content of religion altogether, as if it is wholly irrelevant.

A crime like blasphemy is very deeply rooted in various components of the ideal. Abrahamic religions have a certain approach to an assault on what they declare to be sacred, and only certain things are seen as sacred within a tradition. That this Imam was merely framing a small girl does not mean that every politically active Imam's views are constructed by their material reality devoid of the theological structure of the religion. On the contrary, that law is so harmful precisely because so much of the faithful really do believe that the particular text in question is the material representation of God's very own will. The anger is an expression of their material reality but the trigger for their anger is something unique to a particular religious worldview. They would not have been angry with her had she been accused of burning A Tale of Two Cities, for instance.

Of course, Marx did everyone a favor in turning people's attention to the materialistic substructure which supports the religion, but it is reductionist to completely exclude the ideal components of a religion or a firm and fanatical attachment to a particular notion of the divine which differs from other notions of the divine.

[ind_com]

I am beginning to feel less and less bad about the Americans burning those Qurans in a garbage dump, because when you value paper and ink over human life you deserve to have your holy objects desecrated.

Is Islamophobia allowed here?


No offense to moderate Muslims.

LOL.

[Камо́ Зэд]

So not only are these people calling for the murder of a developmentally different young woman (for whom I have special sympathy, given that my own younger brother is autistic) for carrying around pages of ink scribbled in such a way as to recall their favorite myths in a trash bag, and not only are these people threatening to murder anyone even related to her, and not only have these people actually threatened to murder people calling for her pardon and a critical re-examination of laws that have put a young woman with developmental differences in a Pakistani prison, but to top it all off a religious leader framed her? And to think I was sure my opinion of religion couldn't possibly get any lower before I read this.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

So not only are these people calling for the murder of a developmentally different young woman (for whom I have special sympathy, given that my own younger brother is autistic) for carrying around pages of ink scribbled in such a way as to recall their favorite myths in a trash bag, and not only are these people threatening to murder anyone even related to her, and not only have these people actually threatened to murder people calling for her pardon and a critical re-examination of laws that have put a young woman with developmental differences in a Pakistani prison, but to top it all off a religious leader framed her? And to think I was sure my opinion of religion couldn't possibly get any lower before I read this.

Remember that Saudi Arabia has used its oil largesse to finance conservative salafi ideology, especially places like Pakistan. This has heightened the capacity of the state and/or rightwing ideologues to utilize "false consciousness" to prop themselves up. In addition, events like the partition with India and the proxy war against the "secular Soviet menace" in Afghanistan only entrenched the political authority of the religious right. A materialist theory of history needs to remember the social context which allows for an institution to be abused instead of just lambasting that institution.

[#FF0000]

I am beginning to feel less and less bad about the Americans burning those Qurans in a garbage dump, because when you value paper and ink over human life you deserve to have your holy objects desecrated. No offense to moderate Muslims.

Hot tip: people who burn qurans are people who also think those moderate muslims are "suspicious" so uh haha

[Crux]

I tend to think Marx's critique on this can be taken too far. While it is true that material conditions largely determine how people approach the divine, it's not like we should ignore the content of religion altogether, as if it is wholly irrelevant.

A crime like blasphemy is very deeply rooted in various components of the ideal. Abrahamic religions have a certain approach to an assault on what they declare to be sacred, and only certain things are seen as sacred within a tradition. That this Imam was merely framing a small girl does not mean that every politically active Imam's views are constructed by their material reality devoid of the theological structure of the religion. On the contrary, that law is so harmful precisely because so much of the faithful really do believe that the particular text in question is the material representation of God's very own will. The anger is an expression of their material reality but the trigger for their anger is something unique to a particular religious worldview. They would not have been angry with her had she been accused of burning A Tale of Two Cities, for instance.

Of course, Marx did everyone a favor in turning people's attention to the materialistic substructure which supports the religion, but it is reductionist to completely exclude the ideal components of a religion or a firm and fanatical attachment to a particular notion of the divine which differs from other notions of the divine.
True religion has it's own ideology. But I think, as anyone who has tried to to debate a religious fundamentalist is probably aware, the actual content of scripture often does not come into play. A good example would be that the Bible does not prohibit abortion, yet this is a main issue both for the Catholic church and the christian right in the U.S. So these position do in fact not emanate from the supposed words of God, scripture, but from the material conditions.

And as an atheist I find a discussion of scripture, be it the Bible, the Torah, The Koran or whatever, to be, at best, secondary. A discussion of the actual existing religious authorities on the other hand might be.

[Althusser]

Islamic apologetics are liberals. Religion apologetics are liberals. Isn't some child about to be executed for worshiping Buddah in Saudi Arabia?

[Crux]

Islamic apologetics are liberals. Religion apologetics are liberals. Isn't some child about to be executed for worshiping Buddah in Saudi Arabia?
Your argument seems to be liberal. The supposed "atheist movement" certainly invariably is and more often than not becomes the useful idiots for racism and imperialism.

The Wahabi sect and the Saud royal family is far more complex then "oh look at those barbaric muslims!".

I'll stand with religious socialists any day over the thinly veiled reactionaries that most of the prominent New Atheists seems to be. Fuck Hitchens, fuck Dawkins, fuck them all.


The creepy thought that the reason a lot of outspoken, committed, passionate atheists are choosing this as their arena is because they’re too selfish, too entitled, or too sheltered, to allow any other issues to really matter to them. That they choose this ONE civil rights issue to dedicate themselves to, because it’s the ONLY legitimate civil rights issue that actually affects them, secure in their absence of ovaries, melanin, exogenous hormones, medical devices/supports, welfare checks, track scars and rainbow flags.


[...]It seems that there’s some kind of weird psychological need that a lot of people, perhaps in response to feelings that their belief of their privileges being earned is under threat, valorize and mythologize themselves as valiant Robin Hoods who dare to speak truth to power and stand up for the little guy against the tyrannical… …. Jews? Blacks? Trans people? Atheists? Women? The theme is always the same, however.
And what I worry is how much Atheism might be offering a similar sort of feeling without requiring the same levels of divorcing oneself from reality and diving into some kind of Bizarro World inversion of actual social dynamics. That what atheism is offering so many middle-class, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied men is the capacity to see themselves as these savvy, smart, daring, controversial rogues who are standing up against an oppressive dogma in order to liberate the deluded sheeple. They’re, like, totally against swallowing the blue pill, dude. And so they get to be the heroes of their own narratives, instead of a passive passenger adrift on social forces more or less beyond their control… social forces that happened to guide them into a relatively safe and comfy position.

From here. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/08/10/all-in/)

[Leftsolidarity]

Islamic apologetics are liberals. Religion apologetics are liberals. Isn't some child about to be executed for worshiping Buddah in Saudi Arabia?

Hrmmm great argument you made there bud. I sure am convinced because I'm afraid you'll call me a liberal if I say otherwise.

[Rottenfruit]

Islamic apologetics are liberals. Religion apologetics are liberals. Isn't some child about to be executed for worshiping Buddah in Saudi Arabia?
SO True im fed up with the democratic underground types libs

[#FF0000]

SO True im fed up with the democratic underground types libs

*calls ppl liberals*
*takes idealistic rather than materialistic approach to religion*

nah fuck off son

[Keath]

While I do understand that in certain cases criticism of religion has been used to justify imperialism, an example of this would be some of these imperialistic wars of aggression in the middle east, and I do understand people being concerned with a direct criticism of any religions for this reason I must say that when words are written down on paper(or some other material) it is entirely reasonable to take a look at what those words are and to comment on the reasonableness of those words. And I do think one must exercise caution when doing this so that one does not incite racism, and furthermore I do think that all religions are equally bad. Criticising ideas found in religious scriptures though wouldn't necessarily be idealistic(in the marxist sense of the term) considering those ideas ultimately came about due to materialistic conditions. And ultimately the materialistic conditions are what is at the root of these issues due to the root of religion being materialistic the ideas found in religions are ultimately materialistic as well.

[#FF0000]

The thing that literally nobody seems to "get" about religion is the neat thing that people use its imagery and scriptures to justify literally anything under the sun. Religious texts might as well be rorschach tests. People project on the text as much as they take away from it.

I mean seriously you can go and point out all the "barbaric" (go ahead and say it i know some of y'all want to!) shit in the quran and shit that happens in the most hardline islamic theocratic nations and say "WELL CLEARLY ISLAM IS ENTIRELY REACTIONARY" but then you have to explain why it is that so many people who identify as muslims also identify as pacifists and believe violence is literally "never" okay.

You'd also have to explain why this sort of "radical islam" only became a thing in the 20th century if it's a totally organic evolution in islamic thought.

[fug]

The Imam who framed the girl and put the burn Quran in her bag has recently been arrested and confessed.

[Zostrianos]

The Imam who framed the girl and put the burn Quran in her bag has recently been arrested and confessed.

I hope they make an example of him (although I doubt it will happen)

[Камо́ Зэд]

The Imam who framed the girl and put the burn Quran in her bag has recently been arrested and confessed.

And, like the Vatican did to abusive priests, local Sunni authorities have sworn to enact the harshest punishment on this imam: quiet relocation.

[Zostrianos]

Maybe not. He'll be charged with blasphemy himself, so hopefully there might be some justice:

A Pakistani imam has been remanded in custody, accused of planting pages of the Koran among burnt pages in the bag of a Christian girl held for blasphemy.
The girl was detained two weeks ago near the capital Islamabad after an angry mob demanded she be punished.
Prosecutors say Imam Khalid Chishti will himself face charges of blasphemy.
The girl, named as Rimsha, is said to be about 14 and to have learning difficulties.
Imam Khalid Chishti allegedly told a witness, after tampering with the girl's bag, that this was a "way of getting rid of Christians", a prosecutor said.
The case has sparked international condemnation.
Earlier this week, a court extended Rimsha's detention at a maximum-security prison by a further two weeks.
Her father has said he fears for his daughter's life and for the safety of his family. He has called on Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari to pardon her.
Rimsha's parents have been taken into protective custody following threats, and many other Christian families have fled the neighbourhood.
Pakistan's strict blasphemy laws are often used to settle personal vendettas, correspondents say.
Last year two leading politicians were assassinated after speaking out against the legislation.
'Proven conspiracy' Imam Chishti appeared in the Islamabad court with a white blindfold and shackled hands.
There was a large police presence as he was ushered into the building.
"The imam was arrested after his deputy Maulvi Zubair and two others told a magistrate he added pages from the Koran to the burnt pages brought to him by a witness," an investigator Munir Hussain Jaffri said.
He said Mr Zubair and some others had told the imam not to interfere, urging him to "give the evidence to the police as he got it".
According to Mr Jaffri, Imam Chishti had told them: "You know this is the only way to expel the Christians from this area."
The investigator said the cleric had been arrested at his home on Saturday under Pakistan's blasphemy law.
"By putting these pages in the ashes he also committed desecration of the Holy Koran and he is being charged with blasphemy," he said.
The girl's lawyer told AFP news agency that Rimsha "should be acquitted immediately", as it had been "fully proven that it was a conspiracy".

[Os Cangaceiros]

I definitely understand why some leftists are apprehensive about some issues that pertain to Islam or really any religion, seeing as the large majority of the world's population is religious, and also because there's a big problem with anti-Muslim bigotry both in Europe and (increasingly) the USA, which is quite bizarre seeing as how there aren't very many Muslims in the USA.

But, on the other hand, theology adopted as state policy needs to be opposed extremely vigorously by the left.