"it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" is bollocks

[ed miliband]

or at least not as profound as the people who love to say it think. surely imagining the end of capitalism does indeed require imagining the end of the world as we know and have known it, down to the most simple social relationships?

also the idea that this is somehow something peculiar to neoliberalism - i doubt in the mid-60s or whatever people where any closer to imagining "the end of capitalism". fuck, i doubt even at times of mass class struggle people were properly imagining "the end of capitalism" and does it really matter if they were or not?

plus the kinda cultural studies academics that peddle this shit are no closer to imagining "the end of capitalism" than the sheeple they're trying show the light. mark fisher, the dude that popularised the theory of "capitalist realism" in the uk is labour party (i think); zizek idea of communism... just lol.

that's my morning rant.

[Zukunftsmusik]

plus the kinda cultural studies academics that peddle this shit are no closer to imagining "the end of capitalism" than the sheeple they're trying show the light. mark fisher, the dude that popularised the theory of "capitalist realism" in the uk is labour party (i think); zizek idea of communism... just lol.

I didn't get this.

[ed miliband]

what bit?

"sheeple" wasnt serious, just seems the kind of academics who talk about "capitalist realism" and so on think that they really have cracked through the ideological veneer of capitalism whilst everyone else is walking around blindly. but then they're actual political views suggest otherwise; zizek just wants a form of state capitalism, and i refuse to believe anyone in the labour party can imagine the end of capitalism

[Zukunftsmusik]

Just to make this clear, is "capitalist realism" the idea that "capitalism is the only real of our lives" (zizek) etc? In that case, that's basically what you're saying here:


surely imagining the end of capitalism does indeed require imagining the end of the world as we know and have known it, down to the most simple social relationships?

...and thus echoing zizek.

[ed miliband]

Just to make this clear, is "capitalist realism" the idea that "capitalism is the only real of our lives" (zizek) etc? In that case, that's basically what you're saying here:



...and thus echoing zizek.


"capitalist realism" is the idea that there is no alternative to capitalism; that we can't comprehend an end to capitalism, and that this condition is tied to the collapse of "communism" in the east and the welfare state in the west, and the rise of neoliberalism. as if somehow state-capitalism in whatever form pointed towards a non-capitalist future.

[Zukunftsmusik]

"capitalist realism" is the idea that there is no alternative to capitalism; that we can't comprehend an end to capitalism, and that this condition is tied to the collapse of "communism" and the welfare state and the rise of neoliberalism.

ah, okay, then I misunderstood.

[ed miliband]

this is one of the dude's pushing it:

http://www.zero-books.net/books/capitalist-realism

i've been to lectures with annoying liberal academics repeating this "easier to imagine the end of the world..." shit in relation to postmodern poetry or whatever as if they've stumbled across something truly profound.

[bricolage]

it's all based on the idea that the weakness of the class movement and of any kind of generalised insurgency against capital is down to not being able to 'imagine' another future or in other words a lack of innovative or 'good' ideas. it's idealistic wankery and even when class struggle in say this country (UK) was at its highest workers weren't imagining much more than getting higher wages and having to work less hours, which to be honest isn't a bad things; higher wages and less work gets us a lot closer to the end of capitalism than anything zizek or fisher 'imagine'.

[ed miliband]

ya, that's what my second paragrapg meant.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I dunno, I can easily conjure up the End of the World from my imagination...a giant asteroid hits Earth a la "Deep Impact" or "Armageddon" and the world is shrouded in a toxic cloud of darkness that blocks all light from the Sun, extinguishing humanity. Either that or we turn into mole people and live in the ground. That was easy!

The end of capitalism, on the other hand...:ohmy::confused:


also the idea that this is somehow something peculiar to neoliberalism - i doubt in the mid-60s or whatever people where any closer to imagining "the end of capitalism". fuck, i doubt even at times of mass class struggle people were properly imagining "the end of capitalism" and does it really matter if they were or not?

I don't know about this. Back in the 60's, I think a lot of people actually did believe that they were on the path to victory. Because back then, you had the USSR, which, despite it's many faults, was actively involved in funding all sorts of movements across the globe that 'murika and her allies found irritating, especially the anti-colonial revolutionary movements.

And let's be clear, the Soviets weren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, just as the USA wasn't funding all the people they were because they were evil...the Cold War was a conflict between two competing economic powers over territory, not a struggle between communism and capitalism. But at the time the anti-colonial movements (most of which would degenerate into capitalist dictatorships, banana republics, narco-states etc.) most have seemed cutting edge.

You also had Mao's China, which many young activists embraced as something that would give new energy to revolutionary movements, as opposed to what many perceived as the bureaucratic stagnation and decay of the USSR. But of course we know how that ultimately turned out!

But post-USSR I think people had a harder time imagining anything post-capitalism because there didn't seem like there was any seedbed from which anything revolutionary could even develop.

[Positivist]

Capitalist fatalism has to be the most sinister development of false conscioussness. Alternatives to the system are not even publicly discussed, and when one is, few can see it outside the lenses of capitalist economics (example: belief that communism=equal pay for everyone.)

[maskerade]

I think for a lot of people it is easier to imagine the end of the world rather than the end of capitalism. And it's not like this idea isn't propagated continuously by the powers that be. I doubt there is a single Poli Sci intro course in the world that doesn't force feed students Francis Fukuyama and his "End of history".

On the other hand i think this is a western phenomena.

[Positivist]

I think for a lot of people it is easier to imagine the end of the world rather than the end of capitalism. And it's not like this idea isn't propagated continuously by the powers that be. I doubt there is a single Poli Sci intro course in the world that doesn't force feed students Francis Fukuyama and his "End of history".

On the other hand i think this is a western phenomena.

Dammit it maskerade I'm trying to be the most recent poster in all the displayed threads!

[Thirsty Crow]

"capitalist realism" is the idea that there is no alternative to capitalism; that we can't comprehend an end to capitalism, and that this condition is tied to the collapse of "communism" in the east and the welfare state in the west, and the rise of neoliberalism. as if somehow state-capitalism in whatever form pointed towards a non-capitalist future.
There is an alternative to capitalism, and people can comprehend the end of capitalism as well, although more often than not in negative terms (the abolition of wage labour and the bourgeois state and so on...).
Though, I think there is merit to this argument in that, no matter then actual class character of former SU, the collapse of the bloc actually brought about a crisis of emancipatory class politics as well, probably due to decades of conflating the USSR with "communism". One should also think about a widespread demoralization which hit the working class the most following the crude downfall of all of the nice promises of prosperity and liberty, not to mention the effects of precarious work, part time, unemployment on younger generations.

And maskerade is definitely wrong in thinking that this is predominantly a western phenomenon. What I just put forward is based on the experience in so called transition democracies of eastern Europe.


surely imagining the end of capitalism does indeed require imagining the end of the world as we know and have known it, down to the most simple social relationships?

I don't know, I think I would engage with my close friends in the same way I do know. Such personal relationships might not be altered in such a radical fashion, though I suppose this depends on the way these are organized in the here and now (I enjoy my communism of friendship very much thank you :D).

[The Douche]

I don't get it.

The end of capitalism, really is the "end of the world".

Or does the phrase suggest that a collapse of civilization outside of the context of revolution is more likely than communist revolution?

[citizen of industry]

I don't get it.

The end of capitalism, really is the "end of the world".

Or does the phrase suggest that a collapse of civilization outside of the context of revolution is more likely than communist revolution?

Yes, I think the phrase suggests that.

[maskerade]

And maskerade is definitely wrong in thinking that this is predominantly a western phenomenon. What I just put forward is based on the experience in so called transition democracies of eastern Europe.


Would it be wrong to associate contemporary eastern Europe with the West? Most of the former eastern states are now aligned with the EU - a projection of western ideas and power.

Of course what I said was just personal conjecture. nevertheless I'm still inclined to believe that imagining alternatives outside of capitalism is more common in third-world countries than in Europe, and I'd say that this is the case because qualitatively exploitation in 'developing countries' is more explicit and the various organs of control are not as developed.

[bricolage]

Or does the phrase suggest that a collapse of civilization outside of the context of revolution is more likely than communist revolution?
yeah it means end of the world in terms of extinction of humanity, nature turns to dust apocalypse sort of stuff is easier to 'imagine' than a revolutionary end to capitalism. to be honest I dunno if they actually talk about it in terms of what is more likely (i read capitalist realism but I can't remember much of it except that he spends a chapter talking about why UK students haven't risen up... a few months before they went around smashing and burning london) but I think the extent to which he mentions the inability to 'imagine' an alternative indicates that he sees the extent to which we can 'imagine' something is pretty related to how likely it is to occur.

[bcbm]

i always took the phrase in a purely negative context, that as it stands right now it is easier to imagine civilization collapsing or being otherwise obliterated than a revolutionary transformation of the world.

[bcbm]

I doubt there is a single Poli Sci intro course in the world that doesn't force feed students Francis Fukuyama and his "End of history".

maybe in 1992. i dont think that idea has any currency anymore amongst academics

[black magick hustla]

its easy to imagine the end of capitalism but its hard to imagine communism. i can imagine workers burning down factories and the streetlights of washington dc adorned with the finest fruits of the senate and the police. i can imagine the Great Sacking of Times Square and a worldwide mass strike where people drink beer and fuck and shoot homemade rockets at the pigs. however, a class less, stateless society that isn't some primmie shithole, idk

[citizen of industry]

its easy to imagine the end of capitalism but its hard to imagine communism. i can imagine workers burning down factories and the streetlights of washington dc adorned with the finest fruits of the senate and the police. i can imagine the Great Sacking of Times Square and a worldwide mass strike where people drink beer and fuck and shoot homemade rockets at the pigs. however, a class less, stateless society that isn't some primmie shithole, idk

That's because you are looking at the society around you and trying to picture it being run socially. It doesn't work, because it is based around nation states and the production of surplus value. Try picturing a futuristic earth like you'd see in a sci-fi movie, with no nations. It's easier that way.

[Zealot]

I think for a lot of people it is easier to imagine the end of the world rather than the end of capitalism. And it's not like this idea isn't propagated continuously by the powers that be. I doubt there is a single Poli Sci intro course in the world that doesn't force feed students Francis Fukuyama and his "End of history".

On the other hand i think this is a western phenomena.

I was taught Fukuyama's "End of History" nonsense but my teacher also said he was basically full of shit and we should just forget about him.

[The Douche]

its easy to imagine the end of capitalism but its hard to imagine communism. i can imagine workers burning down factories and the streetlights of washington dc adorned with the finest fruits of the senate and the police. i can imagine the Great Sacking of Times Square and a worldwide mass strike where people drink beer and fuck and shoot homemade rockets at the pigs. however, a class less, stateless society that isn't some primmie shithole, idk

I would prefer, a thousand times, that "primmie shithole" (you know, the one where we have abolished work and alienation, and have formed living communities to care for each other) to one more hour in capitalism.

Maybe when you get out of school and have to be a real worker you'll come to similar conclusions as I have.




:wub:

[Silvr]

Maybe when you get out of school and join the military you'll come to similar conclusions as I have.

Yeah, douche, the working class is clearly clamoring for a primmie shithole.

[black magick hustla]

Maybe when you get out of school and have to be a real worker you'll come to similar conclusions as I have.




:wub:

oh rly, tell me about all the "real workers" (whatever that means) that want to live in hunter gatherer societies where they drop dead at 27 yo

[JPSartre12]

I'm not sure where I stand on the OP's statement.

Oh, sure, there are plenty of contradictions within capitalism that are ripping it apart at the seams. It's going to collapse eventually. But I'm sure that the bourgeois establishment isn't going to go down without a fight, and seeing as they've got a pretty big arsenal (nuclear, biological, chemical weapons, etc) I'm not sure how that would go down.

[The Douche]

Did you guys read what I actually said, or is this another chance to call people "closet primitivists"?

I meant exactly what I said, which is that I would prefer primitivism to capitalism. Not that any masses of people agree with that sentiment, or that I would prefer a hunter-gatherer existence to a communist one.

BMH, lighten up, the butthurt thing doesn't suit you.

[black magick hustla]

Did you guys read what I actually said, or is this another chance to call people "closet primitivists"?

I meant exactly what I said, which is that I would prefer primitivism to capitalism. Not that any masses of people agree with that sentiment, or that I would prefer a hunter-gatherer existence to a communist one.

BMH, lighten up, the butthurt thing doesn't suit you.

sorry if my sardonic sense of humor offends your sensibilities. like omar little said, if u aim for the king u better not miss :)

[TheRedAnarchist23]

"surely imagining the end of capitalism does indeed require imagining the end of the world as we know and have known it, down to the most simple social relationships?"

That is what utopian literature is for.

[Buttress]

I think the statement makes sense. Yes, the world as we know it would end when capitalism ends, but it is referencing this idea that people don't believe major change can occur without, say, an asteroid colliding with the planet. It is easier for people to envision a disaster changing the status quo than the status quo being changed by the workers. Capitalism has embedded itself in past, present and future proletarian thought. Even science fiction taking place in the far future is tainted by capitalism (though I guess there are some exceptions).

[Zukunftsmusik]

I don't know, I think I would engage with my close friends in the same way I do know. Such personal relationships might not be altered in such a radical fashion, though I suppose this depends on the way these are organized in the here and now (I enjoy my communism of friendship very much thank you :D).

Are you so sure about this, though? The way we engage with friends surely is different than the way people engaged with friends under different modes of production. There is no reason to believe the way we relate to and engage with friends wouldn't change radically with a radical change in relations of production?

[Vanguard1917]

or at least not as profound as the people who love to say it think. surely imagining the end of capitalism does indeed require imagining the end of the world as we know and have known it, down to the most simple social relationships?

It's a valid point insofar as it describes what usually passes for 'radical thought' among the mainstream liberal or left intellegentsia, particularly those of the green variety.

But yes, end-of-the-world scenarios don't have nearly as much purchase among the wider public as the cultural elite seems to think they do. The notion of the fear-ridden masses - who are supposely so brainwashed and programmed by fear that they blindly accept their own subjugation - is largely a figment of the snobbish middle-class imagination.

The real cause of why people find it increasingly difficult to look beyond the status quo has more to do with the historic collapse of the old left and the working-class movement, as well as the lack of their replacement with anything other than, for the most part, the politics of petit-bourgeois backwardness. If the only choice in town is between that and the status quo, you can hardly blame people for their seeming apathy.