Stalin, a mass murderer?

[Chewillneverdie]

How many people were sent to the work camps in Siberia, and numerous other places? I seem to be really confused on the subject and im pretty sure you guys (and girls) could help me out on this subject. From all the work camps he sent people off to. I cant remember where i got this, but it said historians calculate millions have died in Soviet Russia under Stalins rule. Didnt he also really screw up the enviroment?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

chairman mao or cassius clay should handle this as they are far smarter then I.


However,just something for you to think about....Your hero Che loved Stalin.

[Chewillneverdie]

hero's also had some bad qualities, lol like Che, who had so many people executed in his "purge"

[Jesus Christ]

will the topics like this ever end?
your gonna get the hardliners here telling you he didnt kill 30 million and that he was a hero
and then ure gonna get the people who think he did it
go figure
never ending cycle

[Chewillneverdie]

lol in my opinion anyone who kills over 1 million innocents needs to go

[Saint-Just]

Cassius Clay knows much more than I about this subject, but unfortunately being the true proletarian he is can't afford to connect to the internet anymore and his computer is very old too. Comrade RAF also knew a lot about this.

Anyway, Cassius Clay once started a thread with do you agree or disagree with these statements:

''Stalin was a tyrant over the people, who killed (sometimes with inhuman tortures) or starved to death with truly fanatical savagery close to thirty million people.''

And that the USSR was ruled by

''bloodstained criminals, who had killed and rooted out millions of Russia's leading intelligentsia in a wild thirst for blood and exercised the most cruel tyranny of all times.''

What he did not mention is that these are quotes from Hitler. What I would suggest is that any preconceptions you have of Stalin are Western propaganda.

There are many, many threads on this subject. There have also been many sources used here on Stalin, this is one of the classics: http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

I won't debate this subject myself because I have not recorded all of the information I come across.

[the SovieT]

again i would like to warn you that geocities webpages aren't very reliable sources....

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 19 2003, 01:19 PM
What I would suggest is that any preconceptions you have of Stalin are Western propaganda.
My perceptions of Stalin is heavily influenced by the book Let History Judge by Roy Medvedev. It is a very good book, I strongly recommend it to everyone interested in the topic. The author was a Soviet scholar, and is very critical of Stalin.

[Soviet power supreme]

I would like to know what you anti-stalinists do to cappies?Dont you agree that collectivization is communism?Kulaks didnt give up their farms and cattle to state.So instead of killing them Stalin let them live and put them in labour camps.Sure there were innocents like those many Estonians who were sent to Siberia.

If you dont agree then could you give me link about what plans Trotsky and Lenin would have had for the Soviet union's future.Would they have continued NEP?Would they have let the kulaks own the farms and other stuff?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 19 2003, 01:32 PM
again i would like to warn you that geocities webpages aren't very reliable sources....
I used that link because there was an argument about it ISF that spilled over onto What Is To Be Done? As a result of it its always pleasant to post that link to assert its credibility amongst Stalinists. There are many other sources of course.

Anyway, Robert Conquest is easily exposed, he masquerades as a Stalinist, evidently he is a liar since no Stalinist would write 'The Great Terror' or 'Harvest of Sorrow'.

Also, we are not smarter than cheguevara717 he says, just a few years older so we have got a bit more reading done.

[el_profe]

OH cmon, anyone who defend Stalin and does not think he is a mass murderer is an idiot. OMG. The facts are their, some people just love staling and the uSSR so much that they want those things to be lie, so they decide they will not believe he was a mass murdered. All the files that have been brought from the fall of the USSR shows stalin was a mass murderer.

WHAT ARE YOU ALSO GOING TO DENY THAT THE KGB existed, and didnt kill people.

[Saint-Just]

You remind me of Comrade RAF,

THE USSR WAS A DEFORMED WORKERS STATE!!!! IT WAS STATE CAPITALIST!!! STALIN WAS A BUTCHER WHO MURDERED 20 MILLION OF HIS OWN COUNTRY MEN!!! HE INTENTIONALLY STARVED UKRANIANS!!! ummm.....ummmmm.....HE WAS A PARANOID PSYCHOPATH THAT MURDERED ANYONE THAT THOUGHT DIFFERENT THAN HIM!! um........HE.....ummmmmmm......HE......MURDERED HIS PSYCHIATRIST...YEAH!!! KILLED HIM FOR PRONOUNCING HIM PARANOID....uhhhhhh.........TROTSKY WAS LENIN'S NUMBER ONE MAN!!!! HIS NATURAL SUCCESSOR...LENIN HATED STALIN!!!! HE WAS CALLED HIM "RUDE"!!! THAT'S ALL THE PROOF WE NEED!!!!


TROTSKY'S NUMBER 1!!! WHOO-HOOO!!

[Comrade Ceausescu]

again i would like to warn you that geocities webpages aren't very reliable sources....

And hitler is?


WHAT ARE YOU ALSO GOING TO DENY THAT THE KGBexisted, and didnt kill people.

NO I aM NoTt GoInG TOo DnY tHaTt.Go get an education you fool.


I would like to know what you anti-stalinists do to cappies?Dont you agree that collectivization is communism?Kulaks didnt give up their farms and cattle to state.So instead of killing them Stalin let them live and put them in labour camps.Sure there were innocents like those many Estonians who were sent to Siberia.

If you dont agree then could you give me link about what plans Trotsky and Lenin would have had for the Soviet union's future.Would they have continued NEP?Would they have let the kulaks own the farms and other stuff?

Stalin didn't send Estonians anywhere.He let many of these minorities in Russia set up Soviet Republics.He felt that they would feel better being ruled by their own people instead of people of a different nationality.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 05:17 AM
OH cmon, anyone who defend Stalin and does not think he is a mass murderer is an idiot. OMG. The facts are their, some people just love staling and the uSSR so much that they want those things to be lie, so they decide they will not believe he was a mass murdered. All the files that have been brought from the fall of the USSR shows stalin was a mass murderer.

WHAT ARE YOU ALSO GOING TO DENY THAT THE KGB existed, and didnt kill people.
So, according to you, western propaghanda is the word of God? Besides, Che killed people too and was an admirer of Stalin. What are you doing in this site if you are uncomfortable with the notion of killing for communism.

[Soviet power supreme]

El profe is a capitalist and he is here to spread his capitalistic lies.

[Soviet power supreme]

What is this thing that communists and anarchist shere are not willing to kill or send capitalists in to labour camps?

Forming a goverment with capitalists isnt communism it is social democratism and it got nothing to fo with communism nor socialism nor anarchism.

[Sensitive]

I might add that Alexander Solzhenitsyn (a fascist, whom loved Franco and wants to see Russia return to a Czarist dictatorship) is still well praised inside of the American university system. A large part of a "Russian history course" I took last year was completely based on lies from Solzhentisyn and Robert Conquest.

Fuck imperialism. Fuck anticommunism. Fuck liberals that believe their lies. :angry:

[Chewillneverdie]

oh yes lets kill millions in the name of communism. Surely anyone with the notion that communism isnt perfect should be shot. Lets face it, Stalin was an ass, and communism has some major flaws. but name anything else that doesnt

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Stop spewing your imperialist lies.We have all heard it too many times.

[Saint-Just]

oh yes lets kill millions in the name of communism. Surely anyone with the notion that communism isnt perfect should be shot. Lets face it, Stalin was an ass, and communism has some major flaws. but name anything else that doesnt

What are you saying here?

It seems to me that you are saying Stalin had a vision of communism as a perfect society. And, for some reason, he decided to shoot anyone that thought communism was not perfect. Your view is that communism has some major flaws, such does every ideology.

Perfection and flaws are irrelevent, we are discussing ideological beliefs that are based on fundamentally different analysis of humans, societies and history. Stalin was a man with a great intellect, as such he did not consider these silly notions, neither do I or cheguevara717, E Brujo, Sensitive or Soviet power supreme. Socialism is a system to replace capitalism. Perfection in relation to ideological systems is the existence of a particular system, to each individual that is a different system. So, for capitalists, capitalism was essentially perfect whilst for communists, communism was essentially perfect. Stalin did not shoot anyone, he waged a struggle against ideas that communists percieve as reactionary.

[Chewillneverdie]

Stalin did not shoot anyone
Your right there, had others do it for him. Yeah he was a genius, but i woulda preferred if we wouldgotten killed and Trotsky had taken over. I seriously hate Stalin, i mean as much as Bush if not more. Who did Stalin use to carry out his dirty deeds, i cant remember (fucking christmas got me all thinking bout cookies for some reason) I know Mao used the Red Guard or whatever, sorry im in the midst of studying Mao, anyone read his poems?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

i have read mao's poerty.It is very fascinating.You know nothing about stalin so shut up.

[''electra'']

Of course he was a mass-murderer there's no doubt about that!!!And unfortunately Che admired him that's why he did the mistake to kill many people as well.This should teach us not to be guided by any person only by our vision for a better world.Cauz everyone makes mistakes...

[Soviet power supreme]

Marx wrote that capitalists wouldnt give up their property without a fight.Sure some innocents died also and I feel sorry for them but why are you so worried about the dead capitalists(kulaks) and those who were sent to labour camps?

[Chewillneverdie]

The Zapitistas are fighting for their land, would you give up something so easily? If someone tryed to take your house and everything and wanted you to work for a collective farm, would you not resist? Che717, i know enough that he is a fucking murderer. You hate Bush do you not? Bush has nothing compared to the blood on Stalins hands. killing is killing, it can rarely be justified. This is why i love SubComandante Marcos, unlike Che he takes every lost life into consideration. Stalin once said "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" how fitting lol. If the capitalist want their land, why take everything away from them? Im against capitialism, but i dont think it is right to take land away

[Comrade Ceausescu]

If the capitalist want their land, why take everything away from them? Im against capitialism, but i dont think it is right to take land away
Then take Che out of your fucking avatar you dipshit.
Maybe because on that land(which they stole)hundreds of innocent workers are being exploited.Not getting the money they deserve considering they are doing the work.Che believed in Marxism-Leninism,which of course believes in everything being state owned,and the confiscation of land from the landlords and capitalists.This happend in Cuba,che was for doing it.You really have no clue what Che represented and believed in,do you?

[Ian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 02:01 AM
Stalin once said "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"
This has been discredited. It's origins are to be found in a play written by a Neo-Nazi Ukrainian group in the 1980's which are believed to have had links to the old OUN (nazi collaborators). It may have been said by an authority in the Nazi regime, I remember a discussion about this very thing only in the last 2 weeks or so, the name Eichmann comes to mind although I don't really remember.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Good post Ian.I had heard that before but I think its good for others to know.Also,I love your signature :lol: Viva Hua Qiao! :D

[BuyOurEverything]

one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic

First of all, it's true. Second, it wasn't Stalin, it was Eichmann http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...19303&hl=stalin (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=19303&hl=stalin). Third, it's irrelevant to this coversation. Other than that, I agree with what che717 and CM have said. Capitalists steal land, why is it so bad to steal it back and give it to the people who actually work? If capitalists are going to use violence to defend "their" property and oppress you, why are you opposed to using violence against them?

[''electra'']

No,no all these killings weren't necessary!Absolutely not!Stalin did not only kill capitalists he even killed his own people!Anyone had a disagreement?Executed!Anyone had a different point of view?Executed!You guys call this communism?Democracy?Equality?Justice?Yes, Stalin was good at words ''We're all equal,we all have the same rights''&bullshits like that but as Che said himshelf;''Words that do not match deeds are unimportant''

[Saint-Just]

but i dont think it is right to take land away

So, socialism is about maintaining private property? Are you sure you have not got capitalism and socialism confused?

hua qiao..

onto street!

LEAVE U PC

[Soviet power supreme]

someone tryed to take your house and everything and wanted you to work for a collective farm, would you not resist?

Of course capitalists will resist.Thats what marx predicted and that is what every marxists know.The thing is that how these capitalists can own a land?Land is for everybody.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Of course capitalists will resist.Thats what marx predicted and that is what every marxists know.The thing is that how these capitalists can own a land?Land is for everybody.

Of course they will resist.They want to keep living lavishly and what not while their workers,treated like slaves,starve.They want to keep exploiting to get rich.


No,no all these killings weren't necessary!Absolutely not!Stalin did not only kill capitalists he even killed his own people!Anyone had a disagreement?Executed!Anyone had a different point of view?Executed!You guys call this communism?Democracy?Equality?Justice?Yes, Stalin was good at words ''We're all equal,we all have the same rights''&bullshits like that but as Che said himshelf;''Words that do not match deeds are unimportant''


Stop your imperialist ramblings.

[Scottish_Militant]

You might be a Stalinist if....

your answer to every question is "that is just western propoganda"

you think your workplace union will be successful if you are the only member.

you carve Stalin busts in shop class.

you have declared that your own bedroom is a fully functioning socialist republic

you treat Marx's writing like pick and mix sweets

on fireworks night/1st July, you hide under your desk and don't come out untill its confirmed that best friend Adolf isn't at it again

you can get the trains working on time, but there aren't people to use them

there is a minimum level of casualties you will accept to get your breakfast for you

You might be a Stalinist, but that never made any difference during the show trials

your closest ties to the proletariat are the noose you use

you like photo suite (I really was there with Lenin, honest!)

the enemy of your enemy is your enemy, the enemy is the enemy... in fact your not sure if you brought enough bullets now you think about it

you break a vase and then claim Lenin wanted it this way and that anyone who inteferes (ie blames you) is working for the Nazi's

each according to his abilities, to me according to what I want

you accuse people of something which was actually commited by you.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

fine...biatch

You might be a Trotskyite if...

What are 5 trots doing in one phone booth?
Marching against phone bills (or their yearly convention).

You may be a Trot if... you have ever thought about wearing an axe as piece of headgear.

You may be a Trot if... you refer to a recent breakup with a girlfriend as a factional split.

You may be a Trot if... every one of your friends heads his own International.

You may be a Trot if... you have ever argued that stockbrokers or bankers are really proletarians.

You may be a Trot if... your mom shouting "dinner's ready!" has ever prevented a split in your Party

You may be a Trot if... anyone has ever told you that your newspaper makes great lining for litter boxes.

You might be a Trotskyite if you get stuck on the highway because you thought you could keep driving your car after it ran out of gas.

You might be a Trotskyite if your closest ties to the proletariat are your friends working at Starbucks.

You might be a Trotskyite if you easily get "stage" fright. (har har)

You might be a Trotskyite if you refer to the suburbs as "the
ghetto."

You might be a Trotskyite if you would join a cult if it weren't for the religious parts.

You might be a Trotskyite if your hands are always covered with red newspaper ink.

You might be a Trotskyite if you refer to sex as "deep entrism."

You might be a Trotskyite if you think Fridha Kahlo was actually hot.

You might be a Trotskyite if you try to justify everything by saying "oh, but that happened before 1917."

You might be a Trotskyite if your in an organization with 10 people that broke off from an organization that had 20 people after that orgranization split from another organization that had 40 people which had a schism a week prior with an organization that had 80 people after it turned to Trotskyism.

You might be a Trotskyite if you know everything there is to know about web design but absolutely nothing about Marxism.

[Kez]

hee hee, both of u, well done...hee hee :lol:

[Chewillneverdie]

the zapitistas are fighting for their land ya ass. Ive got nothing against a little land ownership, you know enough to live on. I admire Che in many ways, but in some ways he was wrong. In my eyes, Subcomandante Marcos is just as great if not a better leader than Che. I do realize many of you will disagree with me on this but its my opinion and you cant do shit about it but try and educate me. Thats the way i see it with cappies, dont force 'em to do anything, that only harbors hate.

[Chewillneverdie]

and im not communist nor socialist nor anarchist nor capitalist. I have my own ideas, if someone follows blindly behind communism isnt that bad too?

[Soviet power supreme]

Ohh I thought Zapatistas are fighting for the rights of Chiapas indians.

[Soviet power supreme]

I would likely listen how you Chewillneverdie justifie landownership.

[Urban Rubble]

No,no all these killings weren't necessary!Absolutely not!Stalin did not only kill capitalists he even killed his own people!Anyone had a disagreement?Executed!Anyone had a different point of view?Executed!You guys call this communism?Democracy?Equality?Justice?Yes, Stalin was good at words ''We're all equal,we all have the same rights''&bullshits like that but as Che said himshelf;''Words that do not match deeds are unimportant''



Stop your imperialist ramblings.

Uhhh, I think what he said was stupid, but what did it have to do with Imperialism ? I swear, you throw around the words "Imperialsm" and "Propaganda" like they're going out of style.

[Chewillneverdie]

Soviet, i just want everyone to be happy, but i think its okay for small amounts of land to be kept. I wish everyone would stop bickering, were a small amount of people, and if we dont get along, what will keep the movement from dying altogether. Please try and stop bickering.

[''electra'']

Imperialist????Who, me???? :angry: Do you have any idea , ANY IDEA what are you talking about?Just because i dare to doubt his actions ?Stalin did awful crimes this is the fucking truth ,why don't you just
get it?We must be smart,OPENMINDED,we must have our own personality so that we can be able to seperate right from wrong.Not everything our superiors say or do is right even if they are communists.You can't just murder sb because he has a different point of view.That is not communism ,that is fascism!

[Scottish_Militant]

No Stalinist can accuse anyone of being an imperialist when half of them are up Saddam Husseins ass, check out the comments on ISF (http://www.socialistfront.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=856)

And to think these guys have the nerve to call themselves Marxists :angry:

"This is a sad day for all the people in the world."

"Its disgusting and i wish saddam could escape this, but i don't see it happening. Just live on, Iraqi resistance, and fight on. I would like to see nothing done to saddam. I would like to see him set free.

I wish him the best of luck in these days, he has had to deal with several tragedies in short succession including the deaths of his own sons."

" My solidarity goes out to Saddam."

Talk about class colaboration, filthy pigs!

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Uhhh, I think what he said was stupid, but what did it have to do with Imperialism ? I swear, you throw around the words "Imperialsm" and "Propaganda" like they're going out of style.

Those lies he stated were created by the imperialists.Hence they are imperialist ramblings.


Imperialist????Who, me???? Do you have any idea , ANY IDEA what are you talking about?Just because i dare to doubt his actions ?Stalin did awful crimes this is the fucking truth ,why don't you just
get it?We must be smart,OPENMINDED,we must have our own personality so that we can be able to seperate right from wrong.Not everything our superiors say or do is right even if they are communists.You can't just murder sb because he has a different point of view.That is not communism ,that is fascism

You are the one who is not being openminded here.You just have your stupid and uneducated view of stalin,and you aern't willing to even try to change it.I doubt you have heard both sides of the story.It seems like the old saying ignorance is bliss is true for you.get a clue you fool.

[Scottish_Militant]

cheguevara717,

If you, like any other brainwashed stalinist, palm off every piece of critique against you as "western propoganda" then surely it is you who is not 'open minded'

just a thought

[Comrade Ceausescu]

No,I read it,and for a while I believed it,but after further educating myself I do not believe it.So I am being open minded by reading it.I find that most of it is just propaganda anyway.

[Soviet power supreme]

Soviet, i just want everyone to be happy, but i think its okay for small amounts of land to be kept. I wish everyone would stop bickering, were a small amount of people, and if we dont get along, what will keep the movement from dying altogether. Please try and stop bickering.

I asked how you justifie landowning and you just say "Stop bickering".And the rest of you guys read this thread before you make accusations against Stalin.It may change your views or not.

The crimes of Stalin (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=5200)

[''electra'']

cheguevara717 can you tell me why do you support Stalin so much?I used historical facts as arguments in order to explain my point of view.Why don't you just do the same?The only thing you do is diss everyone here that has a different opinion from yours.Don't you think that you're going to change our minds by dissing&insulting us.Explain us the reasons you admire Stalin.This is your only hope to convince us that we are wrong.Eventhough i can guess why you admire him.You both have the same fascistic attitude.You think you're the only ones who are right.I admit Stalin did sth that changed the flow of history.He beat Hitler and humanity owns him a lot about that.You see?I'm not absolute.Neither uneducated.I know exactly what Stalin did.That was a heroic action,yes i admit it.But that doesn't change the fact that he was a mass killer.A fascist.Just think about it.You''ll realize that what i say is true.And please stop calling me an imperialist!I - AM - NOT - AN - IMPERIALIST!!!! :angry:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

First off,I never called you an imperialist,I said you spread imperialist lies.Also,do you even know what a fascist is?synonyms are anti-humanist,totalitarian,someone who advocates constant war.Fine,I will give you a few links to some stuff about Stalin that I agree with.

On the Ukraine famine (http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/sov-hol.html)
many good articles and general information (http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades)
A whole book on Stalin (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html)
^I don't support PLP,but I appreciate that they are making this book available.If you would like to see anymore stuff on Stalin,P.M. me.

[Soviet power supreme]

I used historical facts as arguments in order to explain my point of view.Why don't you just do the same

The thing is that you dont use any facts.You just say that Stalin killed everyone who disagreed with him and you dont give any evidence to support these claims.

[Chewillneverdie]

land ownership, to me you should just be able to build a house or a farm anywhere you want. The land cant be yours, but the house or farm is. I know this sounds contridictory but, if a man just wanted to live his life in peace on a farm he built, does that make him an awful cappie? The land can never be owned, but what is put on it should be able to be called home. Che717, was Stalin not a totalitarian?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

was Stalin not a totalitarian?

No he definitly wasn't.There was a fully working Central Committe that voted on everything.Stalin was often outvoted.

[''electra'']

OK here are some examples of what Stalin did;After Lenin's death-January 1924-Stalin formed an alliance,the famous''troyka''with Zinoviev and Kamenev in order to prevent Trotsky from taking the power.After he managed to exile Trotsky in 1929,he removed Kamenev&Zinoviev and later in the trials of '36-'37 he had them executed,along with many others.And let's not forget that the 20th congress in 1956 sentenced Stalin's cruel actions& measures.That's why i don't like him.You got your own reasons to admire him and i respect that.But let me have my personal point of view.What i wrote are not lies.And i didn't call you a fascist i said you have a fascistic attitude just like you told me that i spread imperialistic lies.I didn't want to insult you but you started first.Anyway,thanks for the links...

[Saint-Just]

But Kamenev and Zinoviev oppposed Stalin many times, he did not simply have them executed in one exposition.

This is information surrounding the 20th congress from Mao Zedong (its long but it is all relevent):

'not only have the new bourgeois elements increased in number as never before, but their social status has fundamentally changed. Before Khrushchov came to power, they did not occupy the ruling position in Soviet society. Their activities were restricted in many ways and they were subject to attack. But since Khrushchov took over, usurping the leadership of the Party and the state step by step, the new bourgeois elements have gradually risen to the ruling position in the Party and government and in the economic, cultural and other departments, and formed a privileged stratum in Soviet society.
This privileged stratum is the principal component of the bourgeoisie in the Soviet Union today and the main social basis of the revisionist Khrushchov clique. The revisionist Khrushchov clique are the political representatives of the Soviet bourgeoisie, and particularly of its privileged stratum.
The revisionist Khrushchov clique have carried out one purge after another and replaced one group of cadres after another throughout the country, from the central to the local bodies, from leading Party and government organizations to economic and cultural and educational departments, dismissing those they do not trust and placing their protégés in leading posts.
Take the Central Committee of the CPSU as an example. The statistics show that seventy per cent of the members of the Central Committee of the CPSU who were elected at its 19th Congress in 1952 were purged in the course of the 20th and 22nd Congresses held respectively in 1956 and 1961. And nearly fifty per cent of the members who were elected at the 20th Congress were purged at the time of the 22nd Congress.
Or take the local organizations. On the eve of the 22nd Congress, on the pretext of "renewing the cadres", the revisionist Khrushchov clique, according to incomplete statistics, removed from office forty-five per cent of the members of the Party Central Committees of the Union Republics and of the Party Committees of the Territories and Regions, and forty per cent of the Municipal and District Party Committees. In 1963, on the pretext of dividing the Party into "industrial" and "agricultural" Party committees, they further replaced more than half the members of the Central Committees of the Union Republics and of the Regional Party Committees.
Through this series of changes the Soviet privileged stratum has gained control of the Party, the government and other important organizations.
The members of this pivileged stratum have converted the function of serving the masses into the privilege of dominating them. They are abusing their powers over the means of production and of livelyhood for the private benefit of their small clique.
The members of this privileged stratum appropriate the fruits of the Soviet people's labour and pocket incomes that are dozens or even a hundred times those of the average Soviet worker and peasant. They not only secure high incomes in the form of high salaries, high awards, high royalties and a great variety of personal subsidies, but also use their privileged position to appropriate public property by graft and bribery. Completely divorced from the working people of the Soviet Union, they live the parasitical and decadent life of the bourgeoisie.
The members of this privileged stratum have become utterly degenerate ideologically, have completely departed from the revolutionary traditions of the Bolshevik Party and discarded the lofty ideals of the Soviet working class. They are opposed to Marxism-Leninism and socialism. They betray the revolution and forbid others to make revolution. Their sole concern is to consolidate their economic position and political rule. All their activities revolve around the private interests of their own privileged stratum.'


I am not saying you are wrong, however I think you have only heard the imperialist side of history, as most people have.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 04:19 AM
hero's also had some bad qualities, lol like Che, who had so many people executed in his "purge"

There are times when people NEED to be killed.


Electra - Killing people is not always wrong, particulerly in Guevara's situation and no doubt that some (not all) of the people Stalin killed was the right thing to do.

[Kez]

Mr Robert Riley, being a clear expert on the situation, which of Stalins victims were correctly murdered? The bolsheviks? or the workers? or who??

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Learn to read Kamo, how many times do I have to tell you how much I hate you?

I said NO DOUBT THAT SOME.....


Who? I dont know, but there has to be some of them, odds are that some of them deserved it!!!

[Chewillneverdie]

Riley, how many people need to die, do MILLIONS need to? i dont see the point. Yes maybe some people need to like Osama Bin Ladin or terrorist like that. If anything Stalin needed to die, and by the way Trotsky was killed cussa Stalin. damn ice pick in the head

[Kez]

Riley, i have no concern if an uneducated twat like you hates me.

My question to you was this, which groups do you believe that were murdered were rightfully murdered?

[Scottish_Militant]

Perhaps Stalin killed the one who wanted to buy a socialist island :lol:

[''electra'']

Ok i admit some of the people Stalin executed weren't innocent,they also had blood in their own hands and maybe it deserved them to die.But we're talking about millions!!!I met many bastards in my life;selfish,greedy,unfair,cruel,fake people ,people with no honor,people who it deserved them to die and surely many people like them i shall meet in the future.So what am i suppose to do?Shoot them all?Ok let's start killing every single sinner till we make the human race disappear.I know the society we live in is unfair and many crimes aren't being punished like ungreatfulness and psychical advantage.But we can't save the world by destroying it!We must try to make people better by being the living example of alltruism,love and noblemindedness.If we start killing every bastard in this planet[even if it deserves him to die] noone will believe in us and in our vision to create a better world.So what i simply want to say is;fight injustice with justice,fight hate with love ,fight all the monsters in this planet with your humanity.And even if it seems that you've lost ,you will be the winner and you''ll know it..

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Society fucks people up, thats why is NEEDS to change, however some of the existing people will never beleive the truth (like some of the people in OI) they should be killed, those counter-revolutionaries need killing, true we should try to educate them first though.


communist_revolutionary - Haha

Kamo - ask a friend what "I dont know" means or did you just not see that in my last post?

[Invader Zim]

What I posted in a similar thread: -

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

High Estimates

Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.


-----

Low estimates

Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.

----

In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
Daniel Chirot:
"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
"Highest": 40M
Citing:
Conquest: 20M
Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
Medvedev: 40M
Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
AVERAGE: Of the 15 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
Famine, 1926-38
Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
Conquest:
Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
1932-33: 7M
Ukraine: 5M

[Kez]

how on earth can u suggest that some people DESERVE to die, but you dont know WHO these people are or WHY they deserve to die. you are saying it was right for stalin to kill some people, as perhaps he has some sort of dictatorial right we dont know about.

how the fuck can u subscribe to a view and not know WHY your subscribing to it???

pure idiocy

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I am saying that sometimes it is right to kill people. Are you anti-che because he killed people?

[''electra'']

TavareeshKamo i don&#39;t think you understood what i wrote.There are people who only care about themshelves,their only goal is to make themshelves happy and they don&#39;t contribute to anything.These people are nothing but useless assholes and they have no place in this society we live in.I&#39;m talking about the &#39;&#39;blood-suckers&#39;&#39;,the ones who take advantage of poor and undefended people.Yes it deserves them to die but i&#39;m not saying we should kill them.[I&#39;m getting really tired with this thread... <_< ]

[Chewillneverdie]

Che canb still be your hero if you disagree with some of his..methods.

[&#39;&#39;electra&#39;&#39;]

Che canb still be your hero if you disagree with some of his...methods True

[Kez]

dear god,

Riley,
im asking you to tell me, who do you think should have been killed under Stalins rule? i ask this to prove that without any reason u come out with a statement, and this shows your complete idiocy and lack of any understanding of marxism or any other ideology.
ive noticed you switch from ultra-leftism to opportunism at every other thread post....your an embarresment to the whole movement.

As for Che, he was my hero uuntil i read more about it a few years ago, hes no longer my hero, although there were some aspects of his life that were unbelievably brilliant, which i should follow, such as him stanidng for his principles (despite me believeing his principles to be incorrect) and his courage.

electra,
bloodsuckers, also known as capitalists, are a product of the system we know as Capitalism, we should attack and smash capitalism, and all those who actively try to support it. However, if someone is trying to make money to survive in this system, by having a factory, does he/she deserve to die? Despite them being a product of the system?

[Soviet power supreme]

bloodsuckers, also known as capitalists, are a product of the system we know as Capitalism, we should attack and smash capitalism, and all those who actively try to support it.

Those who support it and fight for it should be killed when they come with their fascist friends and their guns to the battle field.



However, if someone is trying to make money to survive in this system, by having a factory, does he/she deserve to die? Despite them being a product of the system?

Well I fully agree with collectivization so who doesnt give their factories to the people, deserves to be send in gulag.

[&#39;&#39;electra&#39;&#39;]

if someone is trying to make money to survive in this system,by having a factory,does he/she deserve to die?
I never said that.I was generally speaking about those useless f*ckers who don&#39;t contribute to anything and make their living by taking advantage of others.Never mentioned anything about factory owners or other businessmen specifically.
As for Che he was my hero until i read more about it a few years ago he&#39;s no longer my hero Che dreamed of the &#39;&#39;new man&#39;&#39;& wanted to turn all people to that role model.According to his opinion, every person who refused to follow that model had to be executed.I don&#39;t agree with his method but i understand why he did it.He believed some people had to be sacrificied so that the next generations could have a better life,so that they could live as entire human beings.I guess his mistake was that he tried to create &#39;&#39;the perfect society&#39;&#39;sth that is impossible.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I never said che was your hero.

Che was right to kill traitors and counter-revolutionaries.

Stalin was right to kill traitors and counter-revolutionaries.


Happy now?

[Kez]

"Stalin was right to kill traitors and counter-revolutionaries."

again, you make a stupid statement, without backing it up

which people were the traitors and counter revolutionaries he killed?

this is your opportunity to redeem yourself...

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Kamo are you a complete moran? do you want me to name specific people?

E.G. Yuri Krochev - died: sometime during Stalins reign - Killed by Stalins men for treason - aged 46


Are you completely thick?

If you want sources then you search the internet for them&#33;

[Chewillneverdie]

Riley, how many millions of people were guilty, and how many millions were innocent. lol one dead innocent person seems to be to much, Riley if anything your brainwashed and leave Kamo and electra the hell alone. They seem to make a hell of alot more sense than you.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Assuming the western sources are right(they are not)but I read an article that said only 15% of those sent to labor camps were innocent.

[Kez]

Riley, i know myself,
the point was you dont, yet you make statements which suggest you do, because knowledgably you are completely bankrupt, and just go with what a couple of people say, because that is their opinion.

So im waiting for you to say which groups of people "deserve to be killed"... during Stalins time...and why they did

[Ian]

How about those Nazi invaders Kamo?

[Scottish_Militant]

Treason is &#39;treachery towards ones own country&#39;, this is incompatable with Marxism however as it is our opinion that the worker has no country

[ComradeRobertRiley]

No, you lot have completely taken out of context my original post from which this all stemed from.


The point was that surely not all the people Stalin had killed were innocent which is what Kamo was implying by his rash reply.

Kamo want proof that some deserved to die, well I could easily say, Kamo give proof that they were all innocent.

Which Kamo cant. Just like I cant prove that some were guilty.

Again surely the odds are that as the amount of people dead is so high, some of them must deserve it&#33;

[Kez]

Riley,
According to you, if i shot everyone in the world then it would be ok, coz some are bound to be bad people yeah?

so you are justifying Hitlers killing of 6 million in camps, coz some of them no doubt would have been bad people?

fuck up

[Saint-Just]

No, according to Riley, if you shot everyone in the world some would have been bad people. However, it would still be wrong.

According to you, if you shot everyone in the world all of them would have been &#39;good&#39; and therefore innocent.

You are a Trotskyist. Riley is sane.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Thanks Mao at least someone has understood what im saying&#33;

[Kez]

a nut and a maoist, great

lets no forget the millions mao killed with his naive plans in China

Riley does not suggest it would be wrong, but it is justified.

Also, where the fuck did u get the idea that i believe that they are all innocent therefore no one should be shot? thats brilliant where u got that from....

slanderous

[ComradeRobertRiley]

i do think killing innocen people is wrong, but the odds are that not all these people were innocent.


If you cant get this into you think skull its tough, if fed up of saying the same shit over and over again because you cant understand basic english.


Chairman Mao understands what im saying so why cant you?

[The Feral Underclass]

ComradeRobertRiley


i do think killing innocen people is wrong, but the odds are that not all these people were innocent.

But does that make the killings ok?

[ComradeRobertRiley]

sometimes its right to kill people.

(Just so no-one takes this way out of context heres an example)


G W Bush - Needs killing

T Blair - Needs killing

[The Feral Underclass]

I have noticed you always seem to miss the point....Yes it is justified to kill GWB and ony Blair if you want to be specific...but that isnt what is being talked about.

You say:

ComradeRobertRiley

i do think killing innocen people is wrong, but the odds are that not all these people were innocent.

In the context of stalin&#33; My question to you is, does this jusitfy the killing of innocent people, just because the odds were that "...not all of these people were innocent"

[ComradeRobertRiley]

No as has been stated before this does not in any way justify the murder of innocents

[Saint-Just]

Also, where the fuck did u get the idea that i believe that they are all innocent therefore no one should be shot? thats brilliant where u got that from....

I got that idea from the same place you got that idea that Riley would think it is ok to kill everyone because a few are guilty.

In the context of stalin&#33; My question to you is, does this jusitfy the killing of innocent people, just because the odds were that "...not all of these people were innocent"

Riley&#39;s reply was to the original assertion that all those killed were innocent. What he is saying is that he believes a certain amount were innocent however there were also people killed who were guilty.

[Soviet power supreme]

Anti-Stalinists

Could you give some specific murders whose victims were innocent.
Here is what you have given.


OK here are some examples of what Stalin did;After Lenin&#39;s death-January 1924-Stalin formed an alliance,the famous&#39;&#39;troyka&#39;&#39;with Zinoviev and Kamenev in order to prevent Trotsky from taking the power.After he managed to exile Trotsky in 1929,he removed Kamenev&Zinoviev and later in the trials of &#39;36-&#39;37 he had them executed,along with many others


They did try to destoy the party from inside,nevertheless I think that gulag sentence would have been enough


Mr Robert Riley, being a clear expert on the situation, which of Stalins victims were correctly murdered? The bolsheviks? or the workers? or who??

Please more specific.

[&#39;&#39;electra&#39;&#39;]

Oh so you think all these millions of people Stalin killed were guilty right?I&#39;m afraid i don&#39;t know their names.I don&#39;t think Stalin knew the names of all of them either .Most of them were just common people after all -why should &#39;&#39;great leader Stalin &#39;&#39;know the names of these &#39;&#39;unimportant&#39;&#39;people?You know what?I don&#39;t know whether they were guilty or not .All i know is that killing so many people is against every human law.I don&#39;t support anyone who does such a thing....even if he claims do be a marxist,even if he claims to do this for the common good.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I dont think there is anything wrong with killing guilty people.

Killing innocent people is obviously wrong though.

[Kez]

no shit...

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 02:56 AM
lol in my opinion anyone who kills over 1 million innocents needs to go
no one is innocent acording to toxic narcotic
we&#39;re all guilty so if we kill one criminal we might as well kill our selves.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 04:52 PM
sometimes its right to kill people.

(Just so no-one takes this way out of context heres an example)


G W Bush - Needs killing

T Blair - Needs killing
in my opinion they belong in jail for murder

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by petey+Jan 3 2004, 11:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (petey @ Jan 3 2004, 11:39 PM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 04:52 PM
sometimes its right to kill people.

(Just so no-one takes this way out of context heres an example)


G W Bush - Needs killing

T Blair - Needs killing
in my opinion they belong in jail for murder [/b]
hmm i dunno, a long painful death for those two does sound very nice, i could fall asleep to their screams.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

we&#39;re all guilty might as well take our own llives too

[ComradeRobertRiley]

what are you bableing on about?

Im not guilty&#33;

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

no one is always pure and innocent its because no one person is perfect

[ComradeRobertRiley]

That sounds to me like religious talk.

No communist can be religious, its a contradiction.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I&#39;m a democratitic socialist for one and two I&#39;m personaly an athiest. Its just my beliefs are built out of love and compassion

"a true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love"
-che

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 10:30 PM
no one is always pure and innocent its because no one person is perfect
Maybe, but Stalin was as close as it gets.

[Soviet power supreme]

lets no forget the millions mao killed with his naive plans in China

Excellent point.Why the collectivization,big leap forward,NEP,and other economic plans arent discussed on the Che-Lives?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

chairman mao, Was that some kind of a joke

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Petey please dont be silly.

you are against killing people so you quote something from Che.


Are you not aware that che killed many people?





........the people I deal with on here.....

[Kez]

Riley,

cheeky ****, u are the most uneducated twat i ever had the displeasure of meeting on this forum, dont tell me your having frustration with members on here...

your aim isnt to be right, but to make shitty posts to increase your popularity, piss off to ur island, loser

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

kez, I apreciate your help but thats not how we unite

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 3 2004, 10:53 PM

lets no forget the millions mao killed with his naive plans in China

Excellent point.Why the collectivization,big leap forward,NEP,and other economic plans arent discussed on the Che-Lives?
These issues are rarely discussed. I have discussed The Great Leap Forward at least once though. Perhaps there is a lack of readily available records of these periods.

Kez,

Mao&#39;s Great Leap Forward is often seen as naive when we look at them it retrospect. However, this is not the case at all. Bourgeois historians are quick to ridicule communists and call the naive. And, the first five year plan was a great success, the aim as in the GLF was an increase in industrial output to make it possible for China to match the prosperity of the USA and USSR. In the first five year plan 4 of the 6 main industrial production targets (Iron, Oil, Steel, Coal Cement and Fertiliser) were met or exceeded, 2 reached 3/4 of the target (Cement and Oil).

I am not going to detail the GLF. If you first tell me very simply why you think it was a naive plan. I will then describe the GLF and you can judge for yourself what the failures of it were and whether it was &#39;naive&#39;.

As it happens, following the GLF Mao had lost his position in the government and was merely party chairman. Others took control of the economy, and once again socialist economic success took ahold of China, until 1976.


Also, Riley, I think you have a good point about the Che Guevara quote.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:00 AM
Riley,

cheeky ****, u are the most uneducated twat i ever had the displeasure of meeting on this forum, dont tell me your having frustration with members on here...

your aim isnt to be right, but to make shitty posts to increase your popularity, piss off to ur island, loser
and you call this a worth while post?

[Kez]

i will reply again to this post when you answer the question i set a fucking week ago about which groups was Stalin correct to kill...which you seem to believe was correct

[ComradeRobertRiley]

thats like me saying to you, prove to me that all the people Stalin killed were guilty.


you cant.

[crazy comie]

Stalin didn&#39;t just kill the cappies he killed the true commies he killed any scholar who spoke out against him and even dedicated members of his party..

[Xprewatik RED]

He did. But of course you always have the religous worshippers of Stalin scream lies. They have told me that A) My grand parents aren&#39;t real B) They deserved a trip to Siberia as children because their parents were religous, which Stalinists assumed.
Stalin was a despot and a murderor, go to your Western websites and read your tainted information, it doesn&#39;t make it true.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by Xprewatik [email protected] 6 2004, 10:16 PM
He did. But of course you always have the religous worshippers of Stalin scream lies. They have told me that A) My grand parents aren&#39;t real B) They deserved a trip to Siberia as children because their parents were religous, which Stalinists assumed.
Stalin was a despot and a murderor, go to your Western websites and read your tainted information, it doesn&#39;t make it true.
I hope your no refering to me. If you are go back and read my posts. I no not support stalin, he was an evil man who killed many innocent people.

You (if refering to me) have grosely misteken the things I have said.

[Soviet power supreme]

Stalin didn&#39;t just kill the cappies he killed the true commies he killed any scholar who spoke out against him and even dedicated members of his party..

This discussion is going nowhere unless you anti-stalinists give some particulary cases.

Stop posting this kind of posts because they dont make the discussion oing forward.

[Xprewatik RED]

Believe what you want. Everytime I have brought up information you stalinists sayed it was capitalist lies regardless of the source so I am not going to waste my time once again. Look believe your lies, I don&#39;t care. You have your Stalin.com forums created by Phil in Michigan who got his info from Stalin Fans of Michigan, and I have my family members and about 15,000 people I can ask in my city who lived through these atrocities. No Comrade Riley i wasn&#39;t talking to you. Its good to know you don&#39;t condone his "methods".

[crazy comie]

"# Soviet Union, Stalin&#39;s regime (1924-53)

* There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin&#39;s hands. There&#39;s the "Why doesn&#39;t anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there&#39;s the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
* Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
o Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
+ Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
+ Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
+ Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
o Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
o Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
+ 1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
+ 1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
+ 1939-45: 18,157,000
+ 1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
+ TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
o Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
+ Cited by Wallechinsky:
# Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
# Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
o MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
* And from the Lower Numbers school:
o Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
o Cited in Nove:
+ Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
+ Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
+ Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
o Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
o Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
o MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
* As you can see, there&#39;s no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it&#39;s fifteen or fifty million, it&#39;s still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
* Although it&#39;s too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
o In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
o Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
o Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
o Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
o Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
o Daniel Chirot:
+ "Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
+ "Highest": 40M
+ Citing:
# Conquest: 20M
# Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
# Medvedev: 40M
o Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
+ Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
o Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
* AVERAGE: Of the 15 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
* Famine, 1926-38
o Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
+ Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
+ Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
+ Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
+ Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
+ Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
+ Conquest:
# Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
# 1932-33: 7M
# Ukraine: 5M"


here this is a list of various sources and there estimates of the death toll from 20th centuary atlas- death tolls. copyright Matthew White

[ernestolynch]

You&#39;re so stupid you couldn&#39;t even spell &#39;commie&#39; you wee gadgie.

[El Brujo]

Good job citing right-wingers, crazy commie.

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr - Fascist

Antonov-Ovseyenko - The only antonov ovseekno i know was executed in the 30&#39;s for counterrevolutionary activities. If this is him, then obviously it can&#39;t be true, the man died well before stalin. I assume it is his son or grandson or something of the sort. If your father had been executed by the government, that would create a HUGE bias in you.

Conquest: also discredited.

that just names a few.


Also i saw someone post some quotes sympathetic to saddam. Now, i am no supporter of Saddam, but i am quite unhappy about his capture. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and i see Saddam as far more reasonable than the United States.

*electra* - all of your posts were nothing but rants and raves. "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS." Why do we let issues like Stalin and trotsky divide this movement? I take Castro&#39;s view. To blame everything on Stalin is historically simple. To speculate about how different things would have been if trotsky had taken over is pointless. He would have been slandered by the west and we would all be saying "Trotsky killed 20 million" instead of "stalin killed 20 million." They did what they thought was best. However this divide is being exploited by the capitalists, and has been since it happened. How can marxism succeed if two sides are at arms against each other???

Trotskyists need to stop attacking and making stabs at stalinists and stalinists need to stop attacking trotsky. Both sides need to stop praising their leaders as gods.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Good post comrade.

[&#39;&#39;electra&#39;&#39;]

Yeah i&#39;m a passionate soul it&#39;s true..... :D ,but i&#39;m not fanatic. I&#39;m neither trotskyist nor do i praise anyone as god.As the matter of fact i agree with petey&#39;s opinion that noone is perfect.I just hate it when i hear people supporting sb who commited so many crimes,that&#39;s all&#33;iI don&#39;t blame everything on Stalin ,but saying that he did the best he could is completely rediculous&#33;And we don&#39;t know what Trotsky&#39;&#39; would have done&#39;&#39;,so stop acting like you know everything...

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

I agree speculation is not too useful, however we can tell what Trotsky would have done because we know what he WANTED to do. Therefore we can tell Stalin did do the best. Stalin made mistakes. Trotsky made mistakes. I don&#39;t believe Stalin&#39;s plans were "I am going to be an evil dictator and plunge my people into despair." I doubt Stalin woke up everymorning thinking to himself who he was going to kill that day. I believe that he did a good job in the USSR, and that he was doing what he thought was right. Although i don&#39;t trust Trotsky&#39;s motives.. he seemed to have a lust for power and have a streak of opportunism, he was still a socialist and still was not out to simply become dictator.

Both men have flaws, but to so vehemently attack one is not good. We need the movement to be united as i said before. Otherwise we might as well give up now.

[crazy comie]

Almost all of the books on this subject are biased to wards the cappiesi agree and probbably beef the figures up to be above 20,000,000 but the ones redeaming stalin are biased to him.

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

Precisely my point Crazy Comie. They would have done the same to trotsky, or lenin if he had lived.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Penguin Chariot Archer from [email protected] 12 2004, 08:53 PM
Precisely my point Crazy Comie. They would have done the same to trotsky, or lenin if he had lived.
I can honestly say I have never read a establishment historical book on Stalin. My opinion on him is based solely on the writings of other socialists, Cliff, Trotsky etc.

As far as I can see, of all the prominent anti-Stalin Leninists, the only one who cannot be objective is Trotsky himself. The rest are toally objective, even more than that, as they are socialists, it would have been in their interests for SU to be a "socialist paradise".

Indeed, many socialists did take this line at the time. Some didn&#39;t though. Why? Why didn&#39;t they accept the line of the majority of Marxists at the time? Was it some grand conspircy? Maybe. OR, was it that they looked at Soviet society and the behaviour of the SU in the world and came to the opinion that this was not, or rather that if it was, they weren&#39;t socialists. I think the latter is more plausible

Now, I do accept that some of the anti Stalin rhetoric of these socialists has been come part of thr establishment propagnada but does that make the original opinions wrong or invalid? In my opinion no.

[ernestolynch]

You say that the writings of &#39;Socialists&#39; (which I dispute) such as Lev Bronstein and Ygael Gluckstein have &#39;become the establishments view&#39; yet the first Anti-Communist fiction-writer was Hitler, whose writings you two &#39;socialists&#39; copied.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 11:39 PM
yet the first Anti-Communist fiction-writer was Hitler, whose writings you two &#39;socialists&#39; copied.
Give evidence of this?

[celticanarchist]

i think stalin killed around 200,000,000 russians and buried them in quicklime. but since they were all kulaks and crypto fascist traitors who cares?

[crazy comie]

They wouldn&#39;t have done the same to trotsky as he wouldn&#39;t of killed 0ver 10,000,000