Life under Fascism vs Communism

[Questionable]

Long story short, I'm embroiled in an argument with one of those liberal types who believe that communism and fascism are the same thing, and life in Nazi Germany and the USSR were fundamentally similar. What are some sources I can use to prove him wrong?

[#FF0000]

Someone get Ismail in here stat.

[Comrade Samuel]

Well you could start with saying that the USSR was not communism, generally clearing up how phrases like "communism", "socialism", "Dictatorship of the prolaterate" ect. are used and what they mean makes these kinds of discussions alot easier.

I can only guess this is one of the people who believes that gulags and concentration camps where the exact same thing and that Hitler and Stalin where best friends who murdered millions together just for laughs.

[Questionable]

Well you could start with saying that the USSR was not communism, generally clearing up how phrases like "communism", "socialism", "Dictatorship of the prolaterate" ect. are used and what they mean makes these kinds of discussions alot easier.

I can only guess this is one of the people who believes that gulags and concentration camps where the exact same thing and that Hitler and Stalin where best friends who murdered millions together just for laughs.

I know it wasn't communist, but when liberal intellectuals say "communist," it's a synonym for all those things (Socialist, DotP), so I don't argue semantics with them.

Anyway, he gave up quickly after I told him about the quality of life increase in Russia proving his "twin hellholes" theory wrong, but I'd still like some info some I'm curious now.

[#FF0000]

I know it wasn't communist, but when liberal intellectuals say "communist," it's a synonym for all those things (Socialist, DotP), so I don't argue semantics with them

The semantics are important though. I mean it's a bare fact that the USSR and Nazi Germany operated very differently (Nazi Germany's state was a p. well oiled machine while the USSR was in a chaotic death spiral since the civil war so yeah) but I'm not about to defend the USSR when it was, for all intents and purposes, a capitalist society.

[Aussie Trotskyist]

Tell them to read the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism, and Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism.

Then tell them to read the Principles of Communism.

[#FF0000]

Tell them to read the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism, and Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism.

Then tell them to read the Principles of Communism.

The 14 characteristics of fascism is a shitty, vague document and literally every country is 'fascist' by its definition.

And the stated doctrines and principles don't mean shit when one is talking about the concrete, real-world every day workings of a thing.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

When Nazism fell, did the kids revolt against the new regime because it was opposed to Nazism, or because it was full of old Nazis in new positions?

When the USSR and GDR fell, did the kids revolt against the new regime because it was mired in poverty, inequality, homelessness and alcoholism, or...?

[m1omfg]

The material standard in Nazi Germany was even worse than one of the worst Eastern Bloc state ever, Caucescau's Romania. You could be shot for taking more butter than was allowed by rationing in Nazi Germany for fuck's sake. The work hours in Nazi Germany during the war were 16 hours a day. Even before the war, Nazi Germany never achieved the quality of life in Kaiser's Germany (which says just how Nazis sucked in everything as Kaiser's Germany was a backward monarchy) and during the war it became quite nightmarish even if you were "Aryan".

By comparision, in most Eastern Bloc countries rationing was abolished in the 1950s (in most countries even before the UK). Poland and Romania had rationing reintroduced later in late 1970s, but this was due to specific economic problems that these 2 countries were experiencing. And not even that madman Caucescau would have you shot just for taking more butter than was rationed. Work day in most communist countries was 8 hours, with the exception of USSR right after WW2 (because everything that Nazis burned to ash had to be rebuild again).

This is material standards, I think it is obvious that Nazi's other crimes overshadow everything written here.

[Comrade Samuel]

The material standard in Nazi Germany was even worse than one of the worst Eastern Bloc state ever, Caucescau's Romania. You could be shot for taking more butter than was allowed by rationing in Nazi Germany for fuck's sake. The work hours in Nazi Germany during the war were 16 hours a day. Even before the war, Nazi Germany never achieved the quality of life in Kaiser's Germany (which says just how Nazis sucked in everything as Kaiser's Germany was a backward monarchy) and during the war it became quite nightmarish even if you were "Aryan".

By comparision, in most Eastern Bloc countries rationing was abolished in the 1950s (in most countries even before the UK). Poland and Romania had rationing reintroduced later in late 1970s, but this was due to specific economic problems that these 2 countries were experiencing. And not even that madman Caucescau would have you shot just for taking more butter than was rationed. Work day in most communist countries was 8 hours, with the exception of USSR right after WW2 (because everything that Nazis burned to ash had to be rebuild again).

This is material standards, I think it is obvious that Nazi's other crimes overshadow everything written here.

This is some very good information but can I ask where it is from? I don't doubt it's legitimacy or anything but a little citation never hurts an argument.

[Ismail]

Two books on Nazi German economic (labor, etc.) and social policy:
* http://sovietlibrary.org/Library/Union%20of%20Soviet%20Socialist%20Republics/1937_The%20Spirit%20and%20Structure%20of%20German% 20Fascism_Robert%20A%20Brady_1937.pdf
* http://sovietlibrary.org/Library/Union%20of%20Soviet%20Socialist%20Republics/1941_The%20Social%20Policy%20of%20Nazi%20Germany_C .W.%20Guillebaud_1941.pdf

A good read on East German society is The People's State: East German Society from Hitler to Honecker. Everyday Stalinism by Sheila Fitzpatrick is probably more relevant since it deals with 1930's USSR.

Fascism and Nazism both aped Bolshevik policies, from the one-party state to mass organizations. But in economics and social policy there were only similarities because of what I just said, not "fundamental" ones.

[m1omfg]

This is some very good information but can I ask where it is from? I don't doubt it's legitimacy or anything but a little citation never hurts an argument.

It is widely known. Even Goebells admited in 1940 in his diary that the crops have failed and the German people are on the edge of starvation. The main complaint of those prisoners of war (usually American or English) who were considered "Aryan" by Nazis and thus treated more or less humanely was lack of food. They didn't intentionally starve "Aryan" POWs (by constrast they often starved Soviet prisoners of war up to the point of when they ate worms or human flesh, then gloated upon this as "proof" of "Slavic subhumanity" - I am curious how would long these Nazi SOBs last under forced starvation until they ate human flesh or worms), but they suffered from hunger due to general lack of food everywhere in Nazi Germany.

[DasFapital]

this might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Lievywdoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDmovEja_f0&feature=plcp

[RadioRaheem84]

If this is real stark picture of Nazi Germany, then why the hell isn't this reflected in ANY of the WWII movies? If anything the films portray Germany as rather well off just authoritarian. The only time there is any desolation is when the war breaks inside German territory.

Just what the hell was regular everyday life under the Nazis like? Like a "good" day?

[Psy]

If this is real stark picture of Nazi Germany, then why the hell isn't this reflected in ANY of the WWII movies? If anything the films portray Germany as rather well off just authoritarian. The only time there is any desolation is when the war breaks inside German territory.

Just what the hell was regular everyday life under the Nazis like? Like a "good" day?

Well Nazi German workers were so exploited they couldn't afford the commodities the German capitalists were trying to sell them. Germany got television in 1935 and they had problems even getting TVs in bars as even city bar owners in Berlin had razor thin margins (even selling German workers beer was profitable enough under Nazi Germany because of how poor German workers were) . The Volkswagen was a bigger dud during Nazi Germany as since workers couldn't even afford a TV they really couldn't afford a Volkswagen.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well Nazi German workers were so exploited they couldn't afford the commodities the German capitalists were trying to sell them. Germany got television in 1935 and they had problems even getting TVs in bars as even city bar owners in Berlin had razor thin margins (even selling German workers beer was profitable enough under Nazi Germany because of how poor German workers were) . The Volkswagen was a bigger dud during Nazi Germany as since workers couldn't even afford a TV they really couldn't afford a Volkswagen.


So Nazism was just as "fascist" as any of the proxy client states of the US?

It wasn't just an authoritarian Keynesian state as it's practically described? Life under Nazi Germany was just as bad for German worker as it was under for Chileans under Pinochet?

This would make a hell of a lot more sense. I just didn't picture Nazi Germany to have any characteristics that would make it even remotely "socialist" in the liberal/conservative usage of the word.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

If this is real stark picture of Nazi Germany, then why the hell isn't this reflected in ANY of the WWII movies? If anything the films portray Germany as rather well off just authoritarian. The only time there is any desolation is when the war breaks inside German territory.

Just what the hell was regular everyday life under the Nazis like? Like a "good" day?

Life was probably alright...unless you were a Jew, Communist, Socialist, Social Democrat, Black, Disabled, Gypsy, Traveller, Slav, or an Aryan helping any of the above.

And then you have to think how your conscience would be if you were one of the 'lucky' ones in that regime, seeing your friends, acquaintances, neighbours and even family 'disappear.'

So no, life wasn't really good for the people, it just isn't accompanied by evil music and pictures of grey factories, gulags and mass starvation as all scenes of 'Communist' countries are in Hollywood films.

[Geiseric]

Fascism is still inheritly capitalism, so liberals and petit bourgeois populists like to say it was "Socialist," for the same reason as left communists and opportunist trotskyists say that the USSR was "Capitalist." I.E. to disassociate themselves with politics that they believe are associated with themselves by the general population.

Corporate profits skyrocketed during fascism (relative to the weimar republic period) and nothing was really done by the state economically other than things needed for the war effort, such as roads and concentration camps (later of which were still owned by capitalists.) Like some other posters said, the working day was extended, and official state put the average wage at 80 marks a week instead of 100 which was the average during the weimar era. Compare a wage of 1000$ to a wage of 800$, coupled with extreme rationing of energy and food.

Life quality in the U.S.S.R. was skyrocketing though while the markets failed over and over again during the 1920s, proving the planned economy to be the most effective. Imagine the growth stats seen in the U.S.S.R. happening worldwide, if the revolution was accomplished in Germany!

[bcbm]

i just did a brief google search and read a couple links so maybe i am wrong but i feel like the 'nazi germany was all doom and gloom' picture being painted here isnt really accurate. from what i skimmed it seemed like they did offer programs for the people... the people being white germans who sided with the regime, which many did.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

My granfather lived in fascist portugal, what he tells me is: everything was censored, striking was illegal, it was ilegal for more than a certain number of people to be in a public place at the same time, you could be arrested for playing footbal on the street, the dictator was considered the savior of the fatherland, etc.

I know my fascism.

[m1omfg]

i just did a brief google search and read a couple links so maybe i am wrong but i feel like the 'nazi germany was all doom and gloom' picture being painted here isnt really accurate. from what i skimmed it seemed like they did offer programs for the people... the people being white germans who sided with the regime, which many did.

The "evil commie countries" also had programs like 10 day holidays for free arranged by the official trade union (at least in the USSR and Czechoslovakia), generous loans for new families (this one is more specific to 1980s Czechoslovakia). Nazis might have had "programs" but daily life under Nazis was still mostly very hard labour and malnutrition and I seriously doubt Nazi "programs" were anything comparable to commie ones.

Plus, Nazi programmes were usually for the petty burgeoise, not workers.

[m1omfg]

My granfather lived in fascist portugal, what he tells me is: everything was censored, striking was illegal, it was ilegal for more than a certain number of people to be in a public place at the same time, you could be arrested for playing footbal on the street, the dictator was considered the savior of the fatherland, etc.

I know my fascism.

There is also the issue of Portugal having 30 percent illiteracy at the end off Salazar's reign and the regime intentional underdevelopment of industry to "not spoil the pure agrarian catholic people" or some such nonsense.

[Ismail]

There is also the issue of Portugal having 30 percent illiteracy at the end off Salazar's reign and the regime intentional underdevelopment of industry to "not spoil the pure agrarian catholic people" or some such nonsense.Spain under Franco was economically in pretty bad shape as well until the USA decided that he was useful against communism and started aiding the country.

Fascist Italy was also pretty incompetent both economically and military-wise.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

There is also the issue of Portugal having 30 percent illiteracy at the end off Salazar's reign and the regime intentional underdevelopment of industry to "not spoil the pure agrarian catholic people" or some such nonsense.

Exactly, also, the picture of the dictator was everywhere, in schools there was always: a picture of the president, a picture of the dictator (who was a prime-minister), and a crucefix, students could get beat up by their teachers, catholicism was the country's religion, etc.

[Psy]

So Nazism was just as "fascist" as any of the proxy client states of the US?

It wasn't just an authoritarian Keynesian state as it's practically described? Life under Nazi Germany was just as bad for German worker as it was under for Chileans under Pinochet?

This would make a hell of a lot more sense. I just didn't picture Nazi Germany to have any characteristics that would make it even remotely "socialist" in the liberal/conservative usage of the word.
Right, yet Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan couldn't grow their industrial capacity even with their military conquests as their economies were so dysfunctional. When Imperial Japan captured the mines of Manchuria Japan lacked the means of production to extract the minerals in a practical so had armies of poor Japanese workers (that were relocated to Manchuria) to mine with primitive equipment and then Imperial got the idea of invading the rest of China to get slave labor (as in not getting paid any wages slaves) to work the mines (not a good sign of a industrious society). Meanwhile in Nazi Germany they had a similar idea, using Jews as a source of slave labor, in both cases slave labor proved to not solve either Germany's or Japan's problem of a lack of industrial capacity.

So you had economic stagnation mixed with military expansionism and as the war raged on the stagnation turned into a contraction of the economy as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan couldn't rebuild its industry as fast as allies were destroying it.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Nazi Germany made shit films while the Soviet Union made good films. All I need to know.

[m1omfg]

The Nazi economy was so poor during WW2 that even when the german army literally stole food from conquered people and sold it to the general market, people were still hungry. It was a dysfunctional pillage economy. And even at the best of times, its life expectancy was lower than even Chile under Pinochet.

[Teacher]

Read Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti

[Raúl Duke]

I remember reading something that was a kinda interview with German workers at the time.

They claimed that there was more jobs, but they were paid less then before.

I believe this was before the war started (although prob during German re-armament)

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I remember reading something that was a kinda interview with German workers at the time.

They claimed that there was more jobs, but they were paid less then before.

I believe this was before the war started (although prob during German re-armament)

I believe Germany came close to full employment but only because employment became mandatory unless you were a party official or a soldier.

[Igor]

Nazi Germany made shit films while the Soviet Union made good films. All I need to know.

Dunno, Leni Riefenstahl wasn't exactly a hack, regardless of the content she produced. And I personally like lots of Soviet movies, but 30s wasn't exactly a golden era for them either, so I'll give Nazis a pass on this matter.

[#FF0000]

Fascist Italy was also pretty incompetent both economically and military-wise.

There might not be any truth to this but I remember hearing that Italian tank armor was so bad that it would be pierced by small arms fire. But only once -- the bullet would penetrate the armor going in, and then ricochet around inside.

[Geiseric]

the italian army deserted en masse while they were singing Bella Ciao and other union songs, the first cases of this in greece, where they often joined the resistances after leaving the italian army.

Germany was no different near the end of the war, desertions of hundreds of thousands happening at a time, you can imagine highways for miles lined up with soldiers.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I know my fascism.

I tried to find a way to be sarcastic and ridicule you here but I didn't, so I'm saying it straight forward: Reading your posts on fascism, I don't think you do know your fascism. Fascism does not equal a regime that does not allow you to play football in the street.


Exactly, also, the picture of the dictator was everywhere, in schools there was always: a picture of the president, a picture of the dictator (who was a prime-minister), and a crucefix, students could get beat up by their teachers, catholicism was the country's religion, etc.

...which still doesn't make it fascist. It seems to me that you think fascism means the same as what is usually called authoritarian.

[cynicles]

Spain under Franco was economically in pretty bad shape as well until the USA decided that he was useful against communism and started aiding the country.

Fascist Italy was also pretty incompetent both economically and military-wise.
Not according to Fortune magazine!:lol: But sersiouly,what does one expect from a degenerate ideology based on romanticism for the past.

[RadioRaheem84]

So what is the consensus? Alright economically before the war but a hellhole during and after?

What made the Germans support the Nazi regime if not some of their economic expansion via Keynesian policies?

[Teacher]

So what is the consensus? Alright economically before the war but a hellhole during and after?

What made the Germans support the Nazi regime if not some of their economic expansion via Keynesian policies?

Most of the supporters of fascism were industrialists and the petty bourgeoisie. Hitler's policies did bring back economic growth through Keynesianism and in some cases through pure plunder, growing his popularity more broadly. The Nazis were never a party of the working class though, they were about racism, militarism, and above all destroying communism. This meant in some cases forcing workers and management to sit down and hammer out a deal to tamp down unrest, but this should not be read as a pro-worker policy in the slightest.

[Psy]

So what is the consensus? Alright economically before the war but a hellhole during and after?

What made the Germans support the Nazi regime if not some of their economic expansion via Keynesian policies?

A reaction to the global capital crisis of the 1930's and rural Germany hating urban Germany and it was rural Germany were the Nazi party got most of its votes.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

There might not be any truth to this but I remember hearing that Italian tank armor was so bad that it would be pierced by small arms fire. But only once -- the bullet would penetrate the armor going in, and then ricochet around inside.

That is completely true. There are many other instances of things like this as well.

[Sasha]

Long story short, way to many factors to make any sensible economic comparison. While both born out devastated countries and both (in the case of the soviet union eventually) authoritarian led that's really where all room for comparison stop. Nazi Germany was almost from the beginning a war economy, successfully plundering other countries for resources and slave labor, the other a vast nation ravaged by civilwar putting initial priorities on industrialization before getting invaded by the other.
Sure one could compare late 30's till early 40's imperialist capitalist Germany with 50's till 70's imperialist state capitalist cccp but different ages, completely different reasons for imperialism, even the gulags, while horific where a completely different cup of tea than the concentration camps, let alone the extermination ones.
It's really pointless to compare it at all, and a bullshit tactic just to "prove" both sucked for workers (which i dont deny but this is just no argument gor it)

[m1omfg]

Nazi Germany cannot really be compared to 50s, 60s, or 70s USSR. Nazi Germany was way more similiar to 70s Pinochet era Chile rather than 70s USSR. Brezhnev era USSR had its own share of shortages of certain items and human right abuses, but nothing like the strict rationing in Nazi Germany or the outrageous war and genocide commited by the Nazis.

About Italy and other fascist states, well, those were mostly total basket cases. Italy under Mussolini was so incompetent and poor by any measure that it was more comical than threatening. And I've read an article about malnutrition from the 1940s archived on some Google site that says that the main reason for Imperial Japanese agression towards its neigbours was the critical lack of food and resources on the home islands which obviously got much, much worse during the war. Japanese children at that time were taught slogans like "Comfort is your enemy" etc.

USSR and its satellites may have been bureucratically misruled, but they didn't have to invade other countries just to provide basic nutrition for their citizens like the fascists had to do. For all their nationalist, racist, repulsive crap the ultimate goal of fascist invasion was to keep the militaristic, pillage economy running. In wartime Nazi Germany hardly any money went to any civilian use yet capitalists say USSR had a "huge defense budget" (actually 15 percent of the GDP, big, but not "most of the money" as cappies say). As inefficient as Soviet-style economies can be, fascist economies usually make Soviet-style economies seem like shining beacons of efficiency.

This is a little known truth among the general population, because most racists believe that Nazi Germany was just like their 1st world country just hated those pesky Jews and black people while believing USSR to be a hellhole of hunger and poverty. Nazi Germany and its allies was not just morally bankrupt, it was also economically bankrupt as well.

If Nazis won WW2 billions of people would have died, but Nazis would eventually lose because they would have to devour themselves once they run out of countries to invade and pillage.

[RadioRaheem84]

Then fascism = capitalism, imperialism on steroids. Like steroids on the level of Bane in that awful Batman and Robin movie. Maximum overdrive.

This also says something to. WW2 is always portrayed as some glitch in the system. Some break in sanity from the natural course of the world.

But in reality, it was a continuation of capitalism's horrible decent into barbarism. Imperialism, nationalism, and capitalism of the worse case.

Basically WW2 should not be treated as a break from the fight against the Reds. It WAS THE fight against the reds before the Cold War.

It was the final solution for the working class.

Why isn't this accurate portrayal of history depicted in the films? history books?

[Psy]

Then fascism = capitalism, imperialism on steroids. Like steroids on the level of Bane in that awful Batman and Robin movie. Maximum overdrive.

This also says something to. WW2 is always portrayed as some glitch in the system. Some break in sanity from the natural course of the world.

But in reality, it was a continuation of capitalism's horrible decent into barbarism. Imperialism, nationalism, and capitalism of the worse case.

Basically WW2 should not be treated as a break from the fight against the Reds. It WAS THE fight against the reds before the Cold War.

It was the final solution for the working class.

Why isn't this accurate portrayal of history depicted in the films? history books?

Actually the fascism of WWII was caused by a rush to modernity but the bourgeoisie states late to industrialization compounded by the working class being more and more agitated. The ruling class saw themselves being encircled from within (class struggle) and without (imperial rivalry between major capitalist blocks).

Its failure came down to the military victories of the fascists not solving the weakness of these bourgeoisie, Nazi Germany was just as weak (in capital power) in 1941 as it was in 1935 same with Imperial Japan, and of course the fascists didn't even solve the issue class struggle which is why the communists had a land slide of support in Germany and Japan right after the war (thus why the US rushed to rebuild the economies of both).

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I tried to find a way to be sarcastic and ridicule you here but I didn't, so I'm saying it straight forward: Reading your posts on fascism, I don't think you do know your fascism. Fascism does not equal a regime that does not allow you to play football in the street.

still doesn't make it fascist. It seems to me that you think fascism means the same as what is usually called authoritarian.

Then, what is fascism?

In case you do not know this (you probably don't), calling something fascist is something that is done very frequently in my country, for example, once a certain political party here was trying to aprove a law that the oposition called fascist. This comes from actual politicians.

You don't any right to tell me what fascism is, and is not, Portugal was a fascist country until 1974, that means my parents and grandparents lived during fascism. Which also means I have knowledge about what fascism is from people who actualy experienced it.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Then, what is fascism?

Fascism was originally used to descirbe Mussolini's political movement in Italy between 1922 and '43, but it's considered legitimate to use it to describe other similar political movements, ideologies and systems during more or less the same historical period. As ideology or doctrine, fascism is marked by its "ultra-nationalism" and racism, the fuhrer principle, the fusion of state and industry, class collaboration etc.

As a political system, it's another form of the bourgeois class rule, where...


[...] the bourgeoisie, both in producing fascism and as a product of fascism, are organised far more effectively as a class, thus making the bourgeois nature of the state more explicit. (from this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/fascismi-t151949/index.html?t=151949&highlight=what+is+fascism))

... to use more technical (marxist) terms. Others describe it as the reaction of the petit bourgeoisie.


In case you do not know this (you probably don't), calling something fascist is something that is done very frequently in my country, for example, once a certain political party here was trying to aprove a law that the oposition called fascist. This comes from actual politicians.

Even though it's "common praxis" to call someone or something fascist, doesn't mean that it actually is. In almost every country, it's normal to claim that present neo-liberal social democracy is socialism, but that doesn't make it socialism. To use a simile: If it's "common" to claim that stones are flowers, stones are objectively still stones.


You don't any right to tell me what fascism is, and is not, Portugal was a fascist country until 1974, that means my parents and grandparents lived during fascism. Which also means I have knowledge about what fascism is from people who actualy experienced it.

When you claim that fascism basically is a country where a picture of the dear leader hangs in class room walls, then I do have a right, I think. Now, I'm not too familiar with Salazar's rule in Portugal, to be honest. But if Portugal in this period was fascist, it was so because of other reasons than the fact that people weren't allowed to play football in the streets or that the picture of Salazar hung in the class rooms.

[unitedanarchy]

The 14 characteristics of fascism is a shitty, vague document and literally every country is 'fascist' by its definition.

And the stated doctrines and principles don't mean shit when one is talking about the concrete, real-world every day workings of a thing.

lol all countries are