Racist Terror Attack On Sikh Temple Wisconsin Leaves Multiple Dead & Wounded

[Welshy]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/reports-of-people-shot-at-sikh-temple-in-oak-creek-qc6cgc0-165059506.html


We are getting reports that 20 to 30 people have been injured in a shooting before 11 a.m. Sunday at the Sikh Temple, 7512 S. Howell Ave., in Oak Creek.

Two shooters are possibly still inside with children as hostages, according to someone who sent a text message to a Journal Sentinel reporter.

Flight for Life has been called.

Oak Creek police are not giving out any information at this point.

Oak Creek police, the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department and other law enforcement agencies have responded.

There are reports that the head priest was locked inside a restroom with a cell phone and said there was as many as 30 victims in temple.

As of about noon, the Milwaukee County Medical Examiner's Office said it had not been called to the scene.

Meanwhile, Brookfield police officers were dispatched to the Sikh Temple at 3675 N. Calhoun Road as a precaution in the aftermath of the Oak Creek shooting.

At least three squads were at the temple in Waukesha County.

About 50 people were at the Brookfield temple for a morning service and many of them went outside after they learned of the shooting in Oak Creek.

We will update frequently.

Anyone have more info on this? Do you think it may have been some people who think that turban = muslim so they attacked them for that reason?

[Terminator X]

suspect described as a "large, white, shirtless male"

[Aziz]

suspect described as a "large, white, shirtless male"

I bet rush Limbuagh was going on about Muslim extremism seeping into the foundations of this great nation as that description was given and started back peddling.

Remember when He blamed that school shooting on black people and Hip hop and then it came out the kid was white and liked Marilyn manson :D

[#FF0000]

Anyone have more info on this? Do you think it may have been some people who think that turban = muslim so they attacked them for that reason?

I didn't want to assume this was the case but it's kind tough to imagine what else it could be.

[Sasha]

I didn't want to assume this was the case but it's kind tough to imagine what else it could be.

this, unless it turns out the shooter was in fact contra all reports a sikh member of the congragation himself this is probably a hatecrime.
even then a muslim or a hindu extremist would theoretically be possible i guess but since the shooter is described as white an general racist or even the worlds stupidist anti-muslim attack ever seems most likely..

[Aziz]

this, unless it turns out the shooter was in fact contra all reports a sikh member of the congragation himself this is probably a hatecrime.
even then a muslim or a hindu extremist would theoretically be possible i guess but since the shooter is described as white an general racist or even the worlds stupidist anti-muslim attack ever seems most likely..

Maybe just some dude who lived near by and went mental and shot a bunch of people?

[#FF0000]

Maybe just some dude who lived near by and went mental and shot a bunch of people?

yeah i mean that's possible, but that'd be a strange place to just amble into and then go bezerk for no reason.

[Sasha]

Maybe just some dude who lived near by and went mental and shot a bunch of people?


even then, its not that sikh temples have churchbells or calls from the minarets every morning giving some discutabel grounds to an non-primairly racist grudge/motive, when such a specific target is chosen instead of the guys own work, shoppingmall or church one would assume racism to be an important factor...

[RadioRaheem84]

Just what in the hell is going on in the USA? Shootings every year?

[Sasha]

Just what in the hell is going on in the USA? Shootings every year?

Everyday...

[Terminator X]

Just what in the hell is going on in the USA? Shootings every year?

Lots of mentally ill people who can't afford health insurance or treatment.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Its interesting how the media is spinning this. They are going out of the way to emphasize that the Sikhs are not Muslims. "The Sikh people are incredibly peaceful"..not like those other people over there who we keep fighting against.

But yeah, the US is an incredibly violent society and seems to be becoming more violent.

[Leftsolidarity]

Idk if anyone else has been staying up to date with this but since I used to live up there and my parents live very close by, this hits close to home.

At the moment it is 7 dead including the shooter. At least 3 injured in critical condition including the cop that shot and killed the shooter. The cops are saying its most likely just 1 shooter.

[Misanthrope]

Lots of mentally ill people who can't afford health insurance or treatment.

Not even that, the fact that the media and society glorifies these types of events in a way. That mental illness isn't even given attention like it needs to be. That racism and xenophobia are ingrained in society, especially places like rural Wisconsin.

[Sasha]

Its being "treated as domestic terrorism" and the FBI got involved; http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/wis-police-say-shootings-at-sikh-temple-treated-as-domestic-terrorism-fbi-to-investigate/2012/08/05/adb95a7e-df43-11e1-8d48-2b1243f34c85_story.html

My money is that the perp is already confirmed as an fash, either by being known or shit found on the scene.

[Misanthrope]

Police descend on nearby neighborhood but have yet to comment.

http://www.wisn.com/news/Police-FBI-descend-on-Cudahy-neighborhood/-/9373668/15976234/-/uumavn/-/index.html

[Leftsolidarity]

Its being "treated as domestic terrorism" and the FBI got involved; http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/wis-police-say-shootings-at-sikh-temple-treated-as-domestic-terrorism-fbi-to-investigate/2012/08/05/adb95a7e-df43-11e1-8d48-2b1243f34c85_story.html

My money is that the perp is already confirmed as an fash, either by being known or shit found on the scene.

From the sound of his description and the area he's from, it wouldn't surprise me if he was a bonehead.

[Misanthrope]

From the sound of his description and the area he's from, it wouldn't surprise me if he was a bonehead.

Is there a skin head presence in the greater Milwaukee area:confused:

[Sasha]

ATF is scrambled as well.. http://www.wisn.com/news/Police-FBI-descend-on-Cudahy-neighborhood/-/9373668/15976234/-/uumavn/-/index.html

"leftsolidarity", know of any millitia/bonehead groups in that area?

[Misanthrope]

Growing up in the area and having fathers and grandfathers well rooted in the area I know there is a strong racist sentiment among the retired white population certainly. I'm clueless as to any organized right wing/fash movements.

[Terminator X]

the NSM is big in Milwaukee

[Welshy]

ATF is scrambled as well.. http://www.wisn.com/news/Police-FBI-descend-on-Cudahy-neighborhood/-/9373668/15976234/-/uumavn/-/index.html

"leftsolidarity", know of any millitia/bonehead groups in that area?

If it's like the rest of the midwest, then yes there should be. If not in the town but in the surrounding area.

[agnixie]

ATF is scrambled as well.. http://www.wisn.com/news/Police-FBI-descend-on-Cudahy-neighborhood/-/9373668/15976234/-/uumavn/-/index.html

"leftsolidarity", know of any millitia/bonehead groups in that area?

Wisconsin borders on upper Michigan, which according to a michigander friend is basically fascist militia land, it wouldn't be that surprising that it goes beyond state lines.

[Misanthrope]

Wisconsin borders on upper Michigan, which according to a michigander friend is basically fascist militia land, it wouldn't be that surprising that it goes beyond state lines.

Milwaukee is rather far from the MI boarder. Closer to the Illinois boarder, about an hour away, but I sense this is irrelevant as a comrade above pointed out, the NSM has a strong presence in Milwaukee.

[Terminator X]

Here's some info about the NSM Wisconsin chapter's past activities:

http://southsideara.blogspot.com/2011/03/nsm-to-protest-milwaukee-pridefest-and.html

[Misanthrope]

Reports are saying that the suspect had a bald head and a 9/11 tattoo...

[ComradeChe]

CNN: Sikhs "Unfairly" mistaken for Muslims

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/cnn-sikhs-unfairly-mistaken-for-muslims?sub=1708374_490288 (http://www.youtube.com/share_popup?v=5g24A_KEVt0)

I guess targeting Muslims would have been fair!!

[Sasha]

Its being "treated as domestic terrorism" and the FBI got involved; http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/wis-police-say-shootings-at-sikh-temple-treated-as-domestic-terrorism-fbi-to-investigate/2012/08/05/adb95a7e-df43-11e1-8d48-2b1243f34c85_story.html

My money is that the perp is already confirmed as an fash, either by being known or shit found on the scene.

well that seems confirmed fast, apperently his tattoo's where the thing that got the feds involved, curious wether it will be only the one now mentioned 9/11 tattoo or full nazi shit.

[Leftsolidarity]

There is a decent amount of NSM presence in the area but they are usually more around Fon Du Lac. More towards the south in the upper-Illinois region there is a large amount of boneheads that either are unorganized or are in their own little sects. So Milwaukee is kind of sandwiched right in the middle of that and the presence should be noted.

Also, the context of the situation needs to be understood. Milwaukee is one of (actually I think it is THE most but idk if that has recently changed) the most segregated city in the entire country. Last September after violence at the state fair where some black youth attacked mostly white people (in response to harassment by security and many other contributing factors) and the well known racist anti-worker bills pushed through by Scott Walker, the NSM held a big recruitment rally in West Allis (western edge of Milwaukee).

Add on top of this, all the other struggles that have been happening throughout the years in the area. Recently there has been struggles around building a mosque in that area, new gun laws, rampant police brutality in Milwaukee against people of color, justice for Bo Morrison, and many others.

This has been a climate that has been building for a long time and racism and racist violence is nothing new to the area.

I think a good thing to bring up in relation to this was the strong opposition to building a mosque in the area.

And from what I've heard from friends that are more active in that particular neighborhood and the Sikh community, the area is about 50/50 for working class people of color (mostly Latino) and retired white folks with guns.

[Terminator X]

How shocking: :rolleyes:


Stormfront Supporters Praise Terrorist Attack Against Sikhs – Stormfront Group “Chief of Staff” States: “Christ, they’re asking for it.”

Supporters of the white supremacist “hate group” Stormfront spoke out to praise the terrorist attack. One Stormfront supporter wrote “finally a man who got some nerve, how this non violent crap been working for all u guys who are slamming this guy, spread all the propaganda u want, the message isnt getting out, this is how points are made.” The Stormfront “hate group” moderator “Jack Boot” originally removed the post and then reposted it. Another Stormfront supporter shared the despair of other white supremacists that were upset about Sikhs in Wisconsin, stating with a “sad face,” that in addition to Sikhs in New Jersey, they also had “jews and muslims, etc., etc.”. R.E.A.L. has captured a screen shot of the Stormfront supporter’s praise of the terrorist attack.
Stormfront Editor and Chief of Staff Jack Boot, also defended keeping the posting up about praising the terrorist attack on the Sikhs stating “they’re asking for it.” Regarding the Stormfront supporter praising the terrorist killer that attacked the Sikh temple, “Jack Boot” states “I don’t hold his sentiments against him. He’s far, far from the only one, of any race or creed, thinking in these terms. And others have pointed out that, regardless of the details that may emerge, strife is inevitable under a regime enforcing multiculturalism. Christ, they’re asking for it.” R.E.A.L. has captured a screen shot of the Stormfront “chief of staff” comments on this as well.

Also:


Sikh Group Warned of Nazi White Supremacist Threats Months Ago
Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.) notes that in April 2012, the Canadian-based World Sikh Organization (WSO) reported concerns about threats by Nazi white supremacists. This was reported by Panthic stating: “The WSO is concerned that if misleading news reports continue, there will be an increase in physical attacks on Sikhs, like the one in Edmonton in March by Calgary-based white-supremacist group Blood and Honour. The neo-Nazi group also has active members in Vancouver.” In the past Sikh groups have been part of panels warning of the growth of “hate groups” in America.

http://www.realcourage.org/2012/08/wisconsin-terrorist-attack/

[Leftsolidarity]

Just got told that the shooter has been identified as Wade Michael Page. Apparently the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is covering it. Going to be looking into him to see what connections he might have to any bonehead groups.

[Sasha]

some more info:
40 year old veteran, first demoted from sergeant than general discharge, originally from chicago, 9-11 tattoo on his arm, recently broken up with his girlfriend; http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/08/06/158187820/sikh-temple-shooting-suspect-white-man-in-his-40s

[Terminator X]

This guy is fash all day long:


The man who allegedly murdered six people at a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee yesterday, identified in media reports as Wade Michael Page, was a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band.

In 2010, Page, then the leader of the band End Apathy, gave an interview to the white supremacist website Label 56. He said that when he started the band in 2005, its name reflected his wish to “figure out how to end people’s apathetic ways” and start “moving forward.” “I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back,” Page said. Later, he added, “The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole.” He did not discuss violence in the interview.

Page told the website that he had been a part of the white power music scene since 2000, when he left his native Colorado on a motorcycle. He attended white power concerts in Georgia, North Carolina, West Virginia and Colorado. At various times, he said, he also played in the hate rock bands Youngland (2001-2003), Celtic Warrior, Radikahl, Max Resist, Intimidation One, Aggressive Force and Blue Eyed Devils. End Apathy, he said, included “Brent” on bass and “Ozzie” on drums; the men were former members of Definite Hate and another band, 13 Knots.

In 2000, the Southern Poverty Law Center has found that Page also attempted to purchase goods from the neo-Nazi National Alliance, then America’s most important hate group.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/06/bulletin-alleged-sikh-temple-shooter-member-of-neo-nazi-group/

[Terminator X]

It's amazing (but definitely not surprising) to see how the MSM and American public in general is reacting to this massacre. The outcry is a FRACTION of what it was for the Colorado shooting. Also, I see the MSM is already trying to whitewash the neo-Nazi ties by referring to the bonehead as an "Army veteran" instead.

[Leftsolidarity]

I've actually heard of some of his bands before I think. I'm almost positive I've seen fliers or someshit for "Aggressive Force".

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

It's amazing (but definitely not surprising) to see how the MSM and American public in general is reacting to this massacre. The outcry is a FRACTION of what it was for the Colorado shooting. Also, I see the MSM is already trying to whitewash the neo-Nazi ties by referring to the bonehead as an "Army veteran" instead.

Of course; mostly white folk being killed during a leisurely pursuit is a tragedy. Dark-skinned folk in turbans being killed at their un-christian temple of worship...yeah, shame.

Hate how the media spin this shit...the guy killed innocent people in cold blood, fuck his war record, his racial profile, his politics..he killed people. Condemn him, give support to the victims and their families and then shut the fuck up about him, his background, his life and anything else that draws more attention then his sick act warrants.
And if they insist on giving sensationalist-style blanket coverage to such horrible events; keep it consistent. Just because they don't look and act like what you consider to be an 'average american' doesn't mean they are less deserving of your empathy and shock...
Sorry, rant over :mad:

[Sasha]

I've actually heard of some of his bands before I think. I'm almost positive I've seen fliers or someshit for "Aggressive Force".

youngland, max resist and esp blue eyed devils are pretty big names, if he played in those its big news..

[Leftsolidarity]

Hate how the media spin this shit...the guy killed innocent people in cold blood, fuck his war record, his racial profile, his politics..he killed people. Condemn him, give support to the victims and their families and then shut the fuck up about him, his background, his life and anything else that draws more attention then his sick act warrants.
And if they insist on giving sensationalist-style blanket coverage to such horrible events; keep it consistent. Just because they don't look and act like what you consider to be an 'average american' doesn't mean they are less deserving of your empathy and shock...
Sorry, rant over :mad:

I have to disagree with this. These things don't happen in a social bubble; this happened because of the conditions in society (and particularly that area). These conditions need to be brought to light and given attention.

I do understand, though, about not wanting to somehow glorify this or to somehow help build their movement for them. The bourgeois press will have a hard time with this but I do feel that this needs coverage.

[Sasha]

here is their myspace, it has pictures of the guy: www.myspace.com/endapathyband/
W.A.R. and other nazi-tats, hammerskin nation t-shirt, pretty obvious stuff.
SPLC will have a field day with getting those music labels and political organisations bankrupt trough litigation...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Is this yet another case of a thick as pig shit racist murderer going "turban = MOOSELIMB"?

[Sasha]

Is this yet another case of a thick as pig shit racist murderer going "turban = MOOSELIMB"?

if he was in those kind of bands he probably was after every "darky", muslim or not, his GF left him so he went after the most visable racial comunity, sikhs with their beards, turbands and tradionial daggers are a lot more obviously present than most US muslims, esp in those kind of regions.
but yeah, if you now look on scumfront you got plenty a post going "who cares if they where muslims, 6 dead arabs (sic) is good enough!" :bored:

[Crux]

The "mistaken for muslims" angle is disgusting. Not to give the bonehead too much credit here but as Psycho says I am pretty sure being "foreign" is good enough for the nazi crowd.
Also:
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217813_390383214348844_2124757970_n.jpg

[Sasha]

mirror of the full 2010 interview he gave in the spoilers, i only found copies yet on nazi sites so i thought i post it here before they all dissappear; Sunday, May 23, 2010

End Apathy Interview 2010


This interview with End Apathy was conducted by Rick 56 in April of 2010 . Permission to reprint is granted as long as this statement with links to http://www.myspace.com/endapathyband, http://www.label56.com/ and http://uprisedirect.blogspot.com/are included. Mp3`s from End Apathy can be heard on the End Apathy my space as well as the Label 56 website


Good evening Wade, this interview is long overdue due to my own fault but with all the good stuff going on with your band now I don`t think the timing could be more perfect. I`d like to do this interview to let everyone know about End Apathy from the very beginning up until now. It was at least three years ago when I first got in touch with you after hearing your music on your my space page. Can you give the readers a quick background to End Apathy? More specifically- how long ago did you actually come up with the idea for End Apathy (and why you choose the name End Apathy) and start writing music for it?

End Apathy began in 2005 and the concept was based on trying to figure out what it would take to actually accomplish positive results in society and what is holding us back. A lot of what I realized at the time was that if we could figure out how to end peoples apathetic ways it would be the start towards moving forward. Of course after that it requires discipline, strict discipline to stay the course in our sick society. So, in a sense it was view of psychology and sociology. But I didn't want to just point the finger at what other people should do, but also I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back. And that is how I wrote the song "Self Destruct".

As you said End Apathy was entirely your own creation. What was your inspiration for wanting to do the band?

Yes, it was entirely my own idea. The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole.

The music you write is very clean sounding and to me has an oldschool 80`s California skate punk sound to it. Am I totally off base here? Lol. How would you describe your music and can you tell us why you choose to write in this style?

When I first started writing these songs I didn't have a set plan on the style of sound, it just came together. I think it is mainly based on the mix of my influences and that is 80's punk, metal, and Oi.

What kind of topics do you write about in your lyrics?

The topics vary from sociological issues, religion, and how the value of human life has been degraded by being submissive to tyranny and hypocrisy that we are subjugated to.

As mentioned you have been writing music for End Apathy over 5 years but until now it has been a solo project. I`m very happy you stayed persistent with it because I personally love the music style you create for the band. Your persistence has paid off as you now have a complete line up. Can you let everyone know what is going on with End Apathy now?

End Apathy as a band has taken a long time to develop, mainly because it was a one man project. But now there is a full line up with Brent on bass and Ozzie on drums - both from Definite Hate and 13 Knots. We have the luxury of living close to each other and are able to have practice often, as a result we are ready to record our first release which is a 7" split with Definite Hate, then another song that we're contributing to the UPRISE compilation and our full length CD will come out after that.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksXzPbVkI/AAAAAAAAARM/nfeUl_9CE0c/s200/endwade.JPG (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksXzPbVkI/AAAAAAAAARM/nfeUl_9CE0c/s1600/endwade.JPG)http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksTE7R6_I/AAAAAAAAARE/hmWplYY6RMs/s200/endbrent.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksTE7R6_I/AAAAAAAAARE/hmWplYY6RMs/s1600/endbrent.JPG)http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_kse-SI_mI/AAAAAAAAARU/5AP79Yf23mo/s200/enddrum.bmp (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_kse-SI_mI/AAAAAAAAARU/5AP79Yf23mo/s1600/enddrum.bmp)















I`m really glad that worked out for you. Just in this short time you have already done a live show playing with Definite Hate and you guys are all practicing together. How long do you think it will be before we will see End Apathy on stage live?

End Apathy will be playing at the Independent Artist Uprise fest, but we will also be playing at some local clubs here in North Carolina and possibly playing the midwest this fall.

You guys are also getting ready to do some recording for both bands. Label 56 will be releasing a split 7" this summer between End Apathy and Definite Hate. We are also planning to do your full length sometime early next year. Is there anything you want to let the readers know about these. What else do you guys have planned?

Even though End Apathy, Definite Hate, and 13 Knots share some of the same members each band has it's own unique style and sound. Our main focus is the upcoming recording and playing shows.

Aside from your band I`d like the readers to know a bit about you. Not many people may be aware but you used to play with Youngland out in California before moving out to the east coast. How long have you yourself been involved in music and are there any other bands you have been involved with?

I had the opportunity to play bass with Youngland for 2 years back in 2001 - 2003 and during that time I filled in for various bands on guitar and bass including Celtic Warrior, Radikahl, Max Resist, Intimidation One, Aggressive Force, Blue Eyed Devils. I have been playing music since I was 13, off and on over the years.

Are you originally from out in California? How did you wind up moving from one side of the country to the complete other?

I am originally from Colorado and had always been independent, but back in 2000 I set out to get involved and wanted to basically start over. So, I sold everything I owned except for my motorcycle and what I could fit into a backpack and went on cross country trip visiting friends and attending festivals and shows. I went to the Hammerfest 2000 in Georgia, over to North Carolina, up to Ohio, down to West Virginia, and out to California and that's when I joined Youngland.

What do you see as any differences between the east and west coast whether in the music scene or just lifestyle in general?

In some ways things are generally the same, but each area has it's own unique style and traditions. Influenced by surroundings and events. The southeast is much more laid back and relaxed with more of a hillbilly attitude and that is reflected in the music. SoCal was more of a fast paced, tense environment and that definitely comes across in their music.

Well I`m glad you have made yourself a home out here and things are coming together for you. I hope to see End Apathy around and making music for years. The closing words are yours.

I want to say a big THANK YOU to everyone at Label 56 for believing in End Apathy and putting out our music!

[Sasha]

The "mistaken for muslims" angle is disgusting. Not to give the bonehead too much credit here but as Psycho says I am pretty sure being "foreign" is good enough for the nazi crowd.
Also:
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217813_390383214348844_2124757970_n.jpg

like said above, he also had a clearly visible big W.A.R. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Aryan_Resistance) tattoo just above his left wrist, if he was an member or in even in regular contact with tom metzger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger_%28white_supremacist%29) the SPLC might have enough to shut metzger (being an incorperated buisness and thus legaly liable for actions that follow its propaganda) down for good...

[Sasha]

mirror of the full 2010 interview he gave in the spoilers, i only found copies yet on nazi sites so i thought i post it here before they all dissappear; Sunday, May 23, 2010

End Apathy Interview 2010


This interview with End Apathy was conducted by Rick 56 in April of 2010 . Permission to reprint is granted as long as this statement with links to http://www.myspace.com/endapathyband, http://www.label56.com/ and http://uprisedirect.blogspot.com/are included. Mp3`s from End Apathy can be heard on the End Apathy my space as well as the Label 56 website


Good evening Wade, this interview is long overdue due to my own fault but with all the good stuff going on with your band now I don`t think the timing could be more perfect. I`d like to do this interview to let everyone know about End Apathy from the very beginning up until now. It was at least three years ago when I first got in touch with you after hearing your music on your my space page. Can you give the readers a quick background to End Apathy? More specifically- how long ago did you actually come up with the idea for End Apathy (and why you choose the name End Apathy) and start writing music for it?

End Apathy began in 2005 and the concept was based on trying to figure out what it would take to actually accomplish positive results in society and what is holding us back. A lot of what I realized at the time was that if we could figure out how to end peoples apathetic ways it would be the start towards moving forward. Of course after that it requires discipline, strict discipline to stay the course in our sick society. So, in a sense it was view of psychology and sociology. But I didn't want to just point the finger at what other people should do, but also I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back. And that is how I wrote the song "Self Destruct".

As you said End Apathy was entirely your own creation. What was your inspiration for wanting to do the band?

Yes, it was entirely my own idea. The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole.

The music you write is very clean sounding and to me has an oldschool 80`s California skate punk sound to it. Am I totally off base here? Lol. How would you describe your music and can you tell us why you choose to write in this style?

When I first started writing these songs I didn't have a set plan on the style of sound, it just came together. I think it is mainly based on the mix of my influences and that is 80's punk, metal, and Oi.

What kind of topics do you write about in your lyrics?

The topics vary from sociological issues, religion, and how the value of human life has been degraded by being submissive to tyranny and hypocrisy that we are subjugated to.

As mentioned you have been writing music for End Apathy over 5 years but until now it has been a solo project. I`m very happy you stayed persistent with it because I personally love the music style you create for the band. Your persistence has paid off as you now have a complete line up. Can you let everyone know what is going on with End Apathy now?

End Apathy as a band has taken a long time to develop, mainly because it was a one man project. But now there is a full line up with Brent on bass and Ozzie on drums - both from Definite Hate and 13 Knots. We have the luxury of living close to each other and are able to have practice often, as a result we are ready to record our first release which is a 7" split with Definite Hate, then another song that we're contributing to the UPRISE compilation and our full length CD will come out after that.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksXzPbVkI/AAAAAAAAARM/nfeUl_9CE0c/s200/endwade.JPG (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksXzPbVkI/AAAAAAAAARM/nfeUl_9CE0c/s1600/endwade.JPG)http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksTE7R6_I/AAAAAAAAARE/hmWplYY6RMs/s200/endbrent.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_ksTE7R6_I/AAAAAAAAARE/hmWplYY6RMs/s1600/endbrent.JPG)http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_kse-SI_mI/AAAAAAAAARU/5AP79Yf23mo/s200/enddrum.bmp (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_i1i3_8M4Dtk/S_kse-SI_mI/AAAAAAAAARU/5AP79Yf23mo/s1600/enddrum.bmp)















I`m really glad that worked out for you. Just in this short time you have already done a live show playing with Definite Hate and you guys are all practicing together. How long do you think it will be before we will see End Apathy on stage live?

End Apathy will be playing at the Independent Artist Uprise fest, but we will also be playing at some local clubs here in North Carolina and possibly playing the midwest this fall.

You guys are also getting ready to do some recording for both bands. Label 56 will be releasing a split 7" this summer between End Apathy and Definite Hate. We are also planning to do your full length sometime early next year. Is there anything you want to let the readers know about these. What else do you guys have planned?

Even though End Apathy, Definite Hate, and 13 Knots share some of the same members each band has it's own unique style and sound. Our main focus is the upcoming recording and playing shows.

Aside from your band I`d like the readers to know a bit about you. Not many people may be aware but you used to play with Youngland out in California before moving out to the east coast. How long have you yourself been involved in music and are there any other bands you have been involved with?

I had the opportunity to play bass with Youngland for 2 years back in 2001 - 2003 and during that time I filled in for various bands on guitar and bass including Celtic Warrior, Radikahl, Max Resist, Intimidation One, Aggressive Force, Blue Eyed Devils. I have been playing music since I was 13, off and on over the years.

Are you originally from out in California? How did you wind up moving from one side of the country to the complete other?

I am originally from Colorado and had always been independent, but back in 2000 I set out to get involved and wanted to basically start over. So, I sold everything I owned except for my motorcycle and what I could fit into a backpack and went on cross country trip visiting friends and attending festivals and shows. I went to the Hammerfest 2000 in Georgia, over to North Carolina, up to Ohio, down to West Virginia, and out to California and that's when I joined Youngland.

What do you see as any differences between the east and west coast whether in the music scene or just lifestyle in general?

In some ways things are generally the same, but each area has it's own unique style and traditions. Influenced by surroundings and events. The southeast is much more laid back and relaxed with more of a hillbilly attitude and that is reflected in the music. SoCal was more of a fast paced, tense environment and that definitely comes across in their music.

Well I`m glad you have made yourself a home out here and things are coming together for you. I hope to see End Apathy around and making music for years. The closing words are yours.

I want to say a big THANK YOU to everyone at Label 56 for believing in End Apathy and putting out our music!

and indeed 5 minutes after i posted this it started to dissapear from all nazi websites, share, mirror, get it out there

[Robocommie]

So the War on Terror means the Green Berets are going to be kicking in white nationalist doors any day now, yes? No? Well, a guy can dream.

[agnixie]

One of the few links to it Google gives me, the one for Uprise Direct, only results in "this page does not exist". Funny that, I guess if you can lose entire death camps, losing a few articles here and there isn't much of a stretch.

[Robocommie]

youngland, max resist and esp blue eyed devils are pretty big names, if he played in those its big news..

It's big news to people who care, if we want to see any action taken in response to this we're going to need to make sure there's any kind of public outcry.

[Sasha]

It's big news to people who care, if we want to see any action taken in response to this we're going to need to make sure there's any kind of public outcry.

the lazy as fuck media are for now only refering a bit to the white-extremist bands and focuss predominantly on the far less releveant 9/11-army angle.
i'm trying to get at least some info about the 14 words and w.a.r. tattoos out there through the comments.
i hope the SPLC will make an more exstensive statement soon that will get some more foccus on the shit that matters.
liberals and republicans are all bussy fighting wheter types like limbaugh are to blame for this, if this ends without types like metzger and his hate shows and organisations like w.a.r. and the hammerskin nations in the spotlight i'm going to be so pissed off...
here is a documentary that from the 2.50 mark shows what vile terror propaganda metzger spews on an daily basis; wTWT8xaCB5A

[Crux]

Has it been confirmed that he thought he was killing muslims or is that just the media jumping to conclusions? I know I'm repeating myself but considering that he's a white supremacist I think the fact that they were non-white was all the excuse he needed. Furthermore, supposing he actually thought they were muslims, that's still a completely disgusting angle to come at it from. Suppose the headlines for the Utöya shooting had been "Right wing nationalist kills 70 in a case of mistaken identity - Thought center-left social democratic youth were marxist radicals". Yeah...

[Rottenfruit]

The "mistaken for muslims" angle is disgusting. Not to give the bonehead too much credit here but as Psycho says I am pretty sure being "foreign" is good enough for the nazi crowd.
Also:
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217813_390383214348844_2124757970_n.jpg

Totaly not a nazi ;) That circle with a cross is not suspicious at all no sirey

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Has it been confirmed that he thought he was killing muslims or is that just the media jumping to conclusions? I know I'm repeating myself but considering that he's a white supremacist I think the fact that they were non-white was all the excuse he needed. Furthermore, supposing he actually thought they were muslims, that's still a completely disgusting angle to come at it from. Suppose the headlines for the Utöya shooting had been "Right wing nationalist kills 70 in a case of mistaken identity - Thought center-left social democratic youth were marxist radicals". Yeah...

Well I don't know about the media (I first knew of this event from this thread), but I do know that racists can be idiots so it seemed like a possibility. Does it somehow lessen the magnitude of what they did? Of course not.

[Sasha]

the police is looking for this person of interest who acted suspicously arround the scene of the shooting and left before he could be indentified:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/abc_person_interest_sikh_shooting_wmain.jpg
now i normally dont really support calling the police but i'm very much willing to make an exception in this case...

[#FF0000]

Nah he was in the army. I would imagine he'd know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims. He probably just didn't care.

I was almost hoping this was random. Some people who are very important to me have been hassled in the past by people thinking they were muslim or by people who just thought they looked too foreign, and with all the neo-nazi groups that've been springing up and gaining strength in their areas, it's kind of worrying.

These last two murder spree cases have gotten to me more than they usually do.

[Rottenfruit]

Well I don't know about the media (I first knew of this event from this thread), but I do know that racists can be idiots so it seemed like a possibility. Does it somehow lessen the magnitude of what they did? Of course not.

Maby something in the war turned him insane, war brings out the worst in people

Was he a racist before he went into Iraq? If not then i guess something awful happend there that turned him into a monster. So im not goona judge him until i hear the full story.
If he was a racist before then he's a stupid bonehead if not i think the motives run alot deeper into his psyche.

I'm not justyfing what he did im just saying, war can change a good man into a monster, we will know more in the coming days so lets not jump to conclusions.

[Sasha]

intresting to see how over on scumfront the veteran nazi's are all dead silent letting the thread about the attack completely over to the "fals flag!" conspiracy nutters, no one even mentioned his membership of those nazi-bands yet.
anyone seen an more intresting discussion among US nazi's somewhere?

[Sasha]

Maby something in the war turned him insane, war brings out the worst in people

Was he a racist before he went into Iraq? If not then i guess something awful happend there that turned him into a monster. So im not goona judge him until i hear the full story.
If he was a racist before then he's a stupid bonehead if not i think the motives run alot deeper into his psyche.

I'm not justyfing what he did im just saying, war can change a good man into a monster

the army thing should be pretty much disregarded, he got kicked out ages ago and he was not an marine or anything but an HAWK tech before he got demoted to an desk job over at psy-ops, i doubt he ever saw much active service.

in his own interview he says he became political active after attending an hammerskin festival 2 years after leaving the army and 1 year before 9/11.
he was nazi scum and thats it..

[Terminator X]

intresting to see how over on scumfront the veteran nazi's are all dead silent letting the thread about the attack completely over to the "fals flag!" conspiracy nutters, no one even mentioned his membership of those nazi-bands yet.
anyone seen an more intresting discussion among US nazi's somewhere?

All I've seen is the usual MK-Ultra bullshit amongst the usual nutters. Conservatives like Pat Robertson are blaming atheists for some unknown reason and using the "it's not Islamophobia because they were Sikhs" psychotic angle, and all the liberals are doing is blathering incessantly about gun control. A real clusterfuck of reactions to this one.

[#FF0000]

Maby something in the war turned him insane, war brings out the worst in people

Was he a racist before he went into Iraq? If not then i guess something awful happend there that turned him into a monster. So im not goona judge him until i hear the full story.
If he was a racist before then he's a stupid bonehead if not i think the motives run alot deeper into his psyche.

I'm not justyfing what he did im just saying, war can change a good man into a monster, we will know more in the coming days so lets not jump to conclusions.

i don't think he was ever on a battlefield. and he's been on the white power music scene since 2000 according to the splc

[Rottenfruit]

i don't think he was ever on a battlefield. and he's been on the white power music scene since 2000 according to the splc

Then i take back what i sad

[Sasha]

editted the thread title to reflect currently availible information

[Sasha]

It's really mindboggeling for me how after Aurora no time was wasted discussing banning violent movies but banning hate speech remains a no go even now... you americans are weird...

Not to say either should be banned by the bourgeois law system but one would think seeing an batman movie is at least as much an first amendment right as advocating racist genocide.

[L.A.P.]

I didn't really see much of the "we need to ban violent movies" crap as I think they've realized that got old a while ago, I've seen more of the "let's take this oppurtunity to try to convince people that imposing gun control would be a good thing."

[agnixie]

All I've seen is the usual MK-Ultra bullshit amongst the usual nutters. Conservatives like Pat Robertson are blaming atheists for some unknown reason and using the "it's not Islamophobia because they were Sikhs" psychotic angle, and all the liberals are doing is blathering incessantly about gun control. A real clusterfuck of reactions to this one.

Like fucking clockwork. That and the fash trying to rewrite history about their ties with the guy could have been wholly predicted the minute the first bullet killed the first victim.

[RedHammer]

I've never understood these kinds of people. How can you really want to murder another person because they are darker than you? Seriously? That's what it boils down to: they are darker. They are different.

The insanity becomes even more apparent given the fact that even among whites, some groups hate other groups.

More people murdered for nothing. And Scumfront glorifying it, as usual. Our culture is ill. It's diseased.

[Rational Radical]

Islamic fundamentalist terror is based on twisted interpretations of the quran where as right-wing fundamentalist terror is based on propaganda,demonization,dehumanization and very strong hints. FOX(FAUX) news is extremely dangerous as we all know, i've seen guest "declare a war on Islam" and their bigotry went unpunished and uncorrected. There needs to be accountability from the mainstream media about the amount anti-islamic fear mongering propaganda they inject in people's heads but sadly enough we know there wont be any :(.

[RedHammer]

Islamic fundamentalist terror is based on twisted interpretations of the quran where as right-wing fundamentalist terror is based on propaganda,demonization,dehumanization and very strong hints. FOX(FAUX) news is extremely dangerous as we all know, i've seen guest "declare a war on Islam" and their bigotry went unpunished and uncorrected. There needs to be accountability from the mainstream media about the amount anti-islamic fear mongering propaganda they inject in people's heads but sadly enough we know there wont be any.

It's really quite disturbing. I imagine there are parallels between the rampant Islamophobia and the anti-Semitism of Europe pre-WW2. I don't like where this is heading.

[Rational Radical]

It's really quite disturbing. I imagine there are parallels between the rampant Islamophobia and the anti-Semitism of Europe pre-WW2. I don't like where this is heading. Exactly cases like Leo Frank or how movies like "Birth of a Nation" were used to justify segregation,the KKK and Jim Crow policies

[Robocommie]

It's really quite disturbing. I imagine there are parallels between the rampant Islamophobia and the anti-Semitism of Europe pre-WW2. I don't like where this is heading.

A couple of years back I was sitting in a community college classroom, taking a comparative religions course. When the subject of Islam came up, a couple of folks started discussing the idea that Muslims might be infiltrating western countries through immigration, with the aim of taking them over - you know, that old saw. The problem was that this idea more or less went unchallenged, even by the professor.

I really hate being alarmist and I normally don't go in for predictions of doom and gloom, but I definitely think the anti-Islamic attitudes that are disturbingly common and becoming more and more mainstream in both Europe and the US is going to feed into a horrific atrocity in the future if something fairly radical doesn't happen first.

If you consider that imperialist societies tend to look for cultural minorities to scapegoat during times of distress and economic turmoil, like the one we're in now, it's very worrying.

[RedHammer]

A couple of years back I was sitting in a community college classroom, taking a comparative religions course. When the subject of Islam came up, a couple of folks started discussing the idea that Muslims might be infiltrating western countries through immigration, with the aim of taking them over - you know, that old saw. The problem was that this idea more or less went unchallenged, even by the professor.

I really hate being alarmist and I normally don't go in for predictions of doom and gloom, but I definitely think the anti-Islamic attitudes that are disturbingly common and becoming more and more mainstream in both Europe and the US is going to feed into a horrific atrocity in the future if something fairly radical doesn't happen first.

If you consider that imperialist societies tend to look for cultural minorities to scapegoat during times of distress and economic turmoil, like the one we're in now, it's very worrying.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is fueling the right-wing paranoia about "those evil Muslims and their plots to undermine Western society". It's incredibly parallel to the anti-Semitic fears of a "Jewish conspiracy to bring down the West".

We are going to see more and more of these killings. Take a look at Iron March or Stormfront. Those people are celebrating this murder and eagerly anticipating more.

[Obs]

I don't know what's going on over there in the U.S. that's making y'all incapable of dealing with it, but your country has a serious white people problem.

On a serious note, this is horrific. But of course nothing will come of it - this thing'll get wiped off the media as soon as some D-list celebrity gets a divorce.

[RedHammer]

I don't know what's going on over there in the U.S. that's making y'all incapable of dealing with it, but your country has a serious white people problem.

On a serious note, this is horrific. But of course nothing will come of it - this thing'll get wiped off the media as soon as some D-list celebrity gets a divorce.

Tom Kruise and Katie Holmes get more coverage than people getting murdered or suffering. Sad, but true.

[Robocommie]

As usual what will happen with these things is that the actual white power organization will usually disavow any connection with the asshole who did the shootings and thus escape long term consequences. They've been doing that since the 1960's at least.

One of the few things I will give the FBI credit on is that they actually have a genuine concern about white power groups and the KKK. It's probably one of the only good things about J. Edgar Hoover, is that he took them seriously as a threat, even if it was probably based more on a concern for the US mainstream than for minorities in general.

[Rational Radical]

As usual what will happen with these things is that the actual white power organization will usually disavow any connection with the asshole who did the shootings and thus escape long term consequences. They've been doing that since the 1960's at least.

One of the few things I will give the FBI credit on is that they actually have a genuine concern about white power groups and the KKK. It's probably one of the only good things about J. Edgar Hoover, is that he took them seriously as a threat, even if it was probably based more on a concern for the US mainstream than for minorities in general. ehh he also made his top priority to destroy and discredit all black liberationist groups/leaders,maybe he was just jealous of the KKK lol

[Sasha]

some more i can gather of his affiliations from these pictures; http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10013265.html
next to the W.A.R. tattoo it looks like he sported several hammerskin nation tattoo's and posed repeatedly in hammerskin clothing making him an fully patched member (hammerskins have an outlaw motorcycle gang style prospect program; www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/1999/fall/hammerskin-nation (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/1999/fall/hammerskin-nation) ) you dont get to wear those tat's or shirts without being an full chapter member, the hammerskin leadership must be shitting themselves at the moment...

[Rottenfruit]

It's really mindboggeling for me how after Aurora no time was wasted discussing banning violent movies but banning hate speech remains a no go even now... you americans are weird...

Not to say either should be banned by the bourgeois law system but one would think seeing an batman movie is at least as much an first amendment right as advocating racist genocide.
Banning hate speech is not a good idea in my view, its better to allow racists to spew there hate for all to see because that exposes them, banning hate speech and they start to adopt all sort of political manoveruing like the npd in germany and even geert wilders with his emphasis on judeo christian culture(white people) and the dangers of lesser cultures (brown people)

[agnixie]

His twitter account is gone, the band's myspace page is gone. I'm not sure whether it's just "omg we just realized we had a fascist" from the companies (like they don't let them get away most of the time) or careful scrubbing.

[Rottenfruit]

some more i can gather of his affiliations from these pictures; http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10013265.html
next to the W.A.R. tattoo it looks like he sported several hammerskin nation tattoo's and posed repeatedly in hammerskin clothing making him an fully patched member (hammerskins have an outlaw motorcycle gang style prospect program; www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/1999/fall/hammerskin-nation (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/1999/fall/hammerskin-nation) ) you dont get to wear those tat's or shirts without being an full chapter member, the hammerskin leadership must be shitting themselves at the moment...
W.A.R has not being operating for many many years (white aryan resistence) they were in the early 90's if i remember right so that means the guy could have racist connections all the way back to late 80's early 90's
Wikipedia says W.A.R was started by Meztger in 1982

Heres some more info i found on http://onepeoplesproject.com/

This is the shooter at a hammerskin gathering http://onepeoplesproject.com/images/WadeHSN1hl.jpg
According to the Anti-Defamation League website, Hammerskin Nation was formed in Dallas, Texas in the late 80s, adopting the crossed hammers - the symbol used by the fascists in Pink Floyd's the Wall - as their organization's logo. At its peak. HSN was able to boast dozens of chapters across the United States and worldwide. They are best known for holding concerts around the country known as Hammerfest, but also for the murders and other violent acts that have been committed by HSN members over the past 20 years. As of late the organization has lost the strength it once had, and other organizations like Volksfront and the Vinlander Social Club - an organization founded from the remnants of the Outlaw Hammerskins, which were former Hammerskin members that were ousted - came into being.

Pictures of Page with members of HSN as well as some from another organization, the Atlantic City "Skinheads" have surfaced with Page sporting HSN or "Crew 38" patches and insignia, Crew 38 is the support group for the Confederate Hammerskins (CHS), the most active chapter in HSN today.
http://onepeoplesproject.com/images/WadeHSN2.jpg
http://onepeoplesproject.com/images/WadeHSN3.jpg

Top: Wade Page, far left, with glasses, hangs with some of his fellow Hammerskins. Center: Wade Page, far left, sporting Hammerskin patches (you don't wear those patches unless you are a member) joins Hammerskins on stage. Bottom: Wade Page, far right again with Hammerskins.

http://onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1037:sikh-temple-shooter-was-a-damn-hammerskin&catid=29:antifa-news&Itemid=14

[Sasha]

W.A.R has not being operating for many many years (white aryan resistence) they were in the early 90's if i remember right so that means the guy could have racist connections all the way back to late 80's early 90's

well the website is still functional, metzger is still broadcasting radio shows, w.a.r. is still registerd as an incorperated buisness.
like the hammerskins they might have reduced drastically in size but they still have a pressence and an very powerfull heritage.
metzger after the succesfull suing by the SPLC that bankrupted him might have disolved his formal organisation and embraced/started to advocate leaderless resistance & lone wolf attacks but that choice might now come back to bite him firmly in the ass now someone clearly influenced by him did exactly such an attack completely in line with metzgers teachings...

[agnixie]

Expect the pic to be scrubbed sooner than late, back it up.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Any talk of a militant response to this or just candle light vigils and support for the police investigation?

[Rottenfruit]

well the website is still functional, metzger is still broadcasting radio shows, w.a.r. is still registerd as an incorperated buisness.
like the hammerskins they might have reduced drastically in size but they still have a pressence and an very powerfull heritage.
metzger after the succesfull suing by the SPLC that bankrupted him might have disolved his formal organisation and embraced/started to advocate leaderless resistance & lone wolf attacks but that choice might now come back to bite him firmly in the ass now someone clearly influenced by him did exactly such an attack completely in line with metzgers teachings...

Yes its a internet only origination now, TOm Meztger is still a higly influental in the white power movement yes but that the shooter was a member of W.A.R means he has been in this scene for very long

[Leftsolidarity]

Any talk of a militant response to this or just candle light vigils and support for the police investigation?

Nothing that should be posted here.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Nothing that should be posted here.

I'm not talking terrorism, but something more than a candlelight vigil

[Rottenfruit]

Expect the pic to be scrubbed sooner than late, back it up.
Its hosted on a anti nazi site i doubt they are removing it anytime soon. :D

[Leftsolidarity]

I'm not talking terrorism, but something more than a candlelight vigil

Still. People look at this site that should not know any information relating to that, whether it be boneheads or pigs.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So that's a no, got it thanks haha.

[Sasha]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-investigators-kept-tabs-alleged-sikh-temple-shooter-20120806,0,2390104.story

wow, is there really no (official at least) internal intelligence agency in the US? our AIVD spends more time on citizens than on foreigners... :blink:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The FBI is the primary organization that fills that role but that kind of thing has become increasingly privatized.

[Sasha]

The FBI is the primary organization that fills that role but that kind of thing has become increasingly privatized.

Yes but they can officially only investigate people with probable cause that they are breaking federal laws, that's similar to our cid/rid, our aivd can keep files on anyone potentially being an threat to the state...
Aivd is like your cia but can also investigated almost any citizen anytime.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Eh reading the wiki page for aivd, the nsa might come kind of close but we have a pretty huge web of intelligence agencies. And the smoke screen of 'official' investigations sort of became redundant with the patriot act, but no there may not be an exact counterpart to your aivd here.

[agnixie]

IIRC the FBI has mostly loosened on that stuff because of the post Waco backlash among the far right, who for some reason had enough influence to be an issue when it came to taking out one of their compounds. They're pretty good at creating "probable cause" for things they actully care about, it's just that fascism is not that much of a priority outside of the office that works with the SPLC.

The CIA had some involvement on that sort of stuff because mostly, it was assumed that evilbad people = soviet spies and other commies. The NSA, as far as I know, only deals in electronic and signals intel, although of course it's only officially, so who knows.

[Pretty Flaco]

my thoughts go out to the victims and their family and friends. :(

[Red Commissar]

Eh reading the wiki page for aivd, the nsa might come kind of close but we have a pretty huge web of intelligence agencies. And the smoke screen of 'official' investigations sort of became redundant with the patriot act, but no there may not be an exact counterpart to your aivd here.

NSA would probably be the closest organization in terms of gathering information and the like on domestic groups and citizens. Lot of departments that were merged under Homeland Security would also be responsible for this, as is the FBI.

We've seen raids on political activists here by these operations- FRSO, ANSWER, and Kasama to name a few off the top my head more recently as a result of this observation (or those "anarchists" accused of trying to bomb that bridge). Or this, right here on the forums (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=173808). I also suggest people check out the so-called "Fusion Centers", which are used by intelligence operations to coordinate and pool intelligence gathering on domestic sources, including Occupy and campus groups.

They may have had tabs on this guy, but it's ultimately up to the official responsible for that region to make the call which groups to observe and which to see as less of a threat.

[Robocommie]

Go Go Gadget-Antifa

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Go Go Gadget-Antifa

This seems unlikely. I know acting like we don't want to spill our secret plans on here is a fun game to play as it is on other websites, but I doubt there is a clandestine plan for an antifa response to this.

The psl or iso will post articles in a few days condemning the attack and explain why the capitalist state lacks the capacity to handle these fascists and then they will go back to selling newspapers and wait for the fbi to conclude its investigation.

[Leftsolidarity]

This seems unlikely. I know acting like we don't want to spill our secret plans on here is a fun game to play as it is on other websites, but I doubt there is a clandestine plan for an antifa response to this.

The psl or iso will post articles in a few days condemning the attack and explain why the capitalist state lacks the capacity to handle these fascists and then they will go back to selling newspapers and wait for the fbi to conclude its investigation.

Think that if you wish and mock the groups that our trying spread light on these situations if you want. You're not the one dealing with what just happened and you don't seem to be doing anything to try and counter it. So why don't you do something besides sitting on the sidelines talking about how no one is doing it right, and start organizing yourself.

[Welshy]

Think that if you wish and mock the groups that our trying spread light on these situations if you want. You're not the one dealing with what just happened and you don't seem to be doing anything to try and counter it. So why don't you do something besides sitting on the sidelines talking about how no one is doing it right, and start organizing yourself.

I think they are criticizing the groups for not doing enough to actually handle these problems and that they seem to be just fine with writing articles and not doing much else. This is probably is a more fair accusation to throw at the ISO as the PSL seems to be more active through ANSWER. Also it's only been one day and the poster is in Ohio there isn't much they could have done since then for your hostility and flexing of your internet activist dick to be warranted. I understand this event to place close to home with you but getting all fluster on the internet over this issue isn't going to make things better.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There is a report that a mosque in Joplin, Missouri recently burnt to the ground.According to this article it was arson.

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/08/joplin-mosque-burned-to-ground/

The US media seems to be downplaying this incident, barely mentioning it.

Joplin was hard hit and almost destroyed by a storm last year.

[Leftsolidarity]

I think they are criticizing the groups for not doing enough to actually handle these problems and that they seem to be just fine with writing articles and not doing much else. This is probably is a more fair accusation to throw at the ISO as the PSL seems to be more active through ANSWER. Also it's only been one day and the poster is in Ohio there isn't much they could have done since then for your hostility and flexing of your internet activist dick to be warranted. I understand this event to place close to home with you but getting all fluster on the internet over this issue isn't going to make things better.

I'm not "flexing my Internet activist dick" at all. I'm saying that the poster has no room to criticize these other organizations at the moment. Not only are organizations already working with the Sikh community and doing work to counter this but the comments were totally rude and unwarranted in this situation.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm not being rude, or at least that is not my intention. With that being said I am going to go ahead and spill the beans for the feds and the nazis because it just so happens that I am privy to information regarding the coming militant response for this act. In a stunning act of left unity, the wwp, psl, iso, etc, etc, etc will come together to do precisely nothing. They will do this because they are powerless to do anything else, and why they are in that position is what they should be expending their effort on.

The Sikh community’s response will be one of its own creation, and one that doesn’t require the input from the lenin cosplay community.

If I’m wrong on this you have my word that I’ll be wherever the confrontation is, but until then I will discuss this event here on the sidelines right next to you and your organizations.

[DasFapital]

i'm waiting for the white nationalists in the tea party to make a pathetic attempt to downplay their role in influencing this guy

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Sadly there will be more of this. US society is primed for this. We've had years of nationalist indoctrination that mostly poor brown people on the other side of the world are a threat to our way of life. "Our way of life" is indeed rapidly deteriorating under the onslaught of neo-liberalism and the decomposition of capitalism.

I'm far from an expert, but the highly pathological psychology of Wade Page is interesting.What I've read of him, Page seemed to be engaged in a frantic search for "the way forward for our sick society". He seemed to admit that he himself was sick.He was kicked out of the US Army for alcoholism. The cover art for an album of the band he was in seemed to show a WN punk, laying dead drunk on the street in front of a liquor store, with a police car in the background.I'm not sure what this adds up to.


Page’s years in the Army’s psychological operations unit, moreover, throw the spotlight on the military’s recruitment and cultivation of a psychopathic element ready to carry out mass murder against any population targeted by US imperialism for occupation

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/aug2012/sikh-a07.shtml

[Sendo]

I've never understood these kinds of people. How can you really want to murder another person because they are darker than you? Seriously? That's what it boils down to: they are darker. They are different.

The insanity becomes even more apparent given the fact that even among whites, some groups hate other groups.


Of course. There is no such thing as "white". A little over a 100 years ago, someone with a Sicilian background would not be considered "white" in America. But as America got more and more diverse and filled up with Hispanics and East Asians, the definition of white was expanded. Much like a Popular Front against fascism, it was and is a popular front against very "dark" and very "foreign". I guarantee that if a genie killed all the "noticeable" Africans and Asians and Amerindians living in the USA, then the Neo-Nazis would go after those recently descended from the Italians and the Greeks and the Spaniards (given the Moorish influence). They would eventually killing almost everyone and end up fucking their cousins like they really wanted to all along.

Nearly every nation's racists have done this. If you want a list of similar patterns of the adaptability and empty, not-even-self-consistent ways of racism, I'd could go on and on.

[Robocommie]

This seems unlikely. I know acting like we don't want to spill our secret plans on here is a fun game to play as it is on other websites, but I doubt there is a clandestine plan for an antifa response to this.

The psl or iso will post articles in a few days condemning the attack and explain why the capitalist state lacks the capacity to handle these fascists and then they will go back to selling newspapers and wait for the fbi to conclude its investigation.

Well with an attitude like that, if there IS a secret Nazi-killing party, we sure aren't going to invite YOU to it.

[RedHammer]

Banning hate speech is not a good idea in my view, its better to allow racists to spew there hate for all to see because that exposes them, banning hate speech and they start to adopt all sort of political manoveruing like the npd in germany and even geert wilders with his emphasis on judeo christian culture(white people) and the dangers of lesser cultures (brown people)

I agree with you only because I know that if we did start banning the "dangerous" talk, we RevLefters would probably be among them (the establishment definitely sees our ideology as a threat).

I wish we could do more. If I were president, I'd have scumfront shut down and every member hanged. Or better yet, gulags!


Of course. There is no such thing as "white". A little over a 100 years ago, someone with a Sicilian background would not be considered "white" in America. But as America got more and more diverse and filled up with Hispanics and East Asians, the definition of white was expanded. Much like a Popular Front against fascism, it was and is a popular front against very "dark" and very "foreign". I guarantee that if a genie killed all the "noticeable" Africans and Asians and Amerindians living in the USA, then the Neo-Nazis would go after those recently descended from the Italians and the Greeks and the Spaniards (given the Moorish influence). They would eventually killing almost everyone and end up fucking their cousins like they really wanted to all along.

Nearly every nation's racists have done this. If you want a list of similar patterns of the adaptability and empty, not-even-self-consistent ways of racism, I'd could go on and on.

This is true. They turn on each other as they strive more and more for that meaningless "purity". Interestingly enough, most people in the Middle East (I know Sikhs are not Middle Eastern) are White, and some are indistinguishable from some Europeans.

It's all superficial shit. It's sad that people kill over it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

This seems unlikely. I know acting like we don't want to spill our secret plans on here is a fun game to play as it is on other websites, but I doubt there is a clandestine plan for an antifa response to this.

The psl or iso will post articles in a few days condemning the attack and explain why the capitalist state lacks the capacity to handle these fascists and then they will go back to selling newspapers and wait for the fbi to conclude its investigation.

Well I'm in Cali and I don't know what ISO comrades out there are planing to do, let alone PSL or other groups. And frankly, if it happened here, I don't know what I would do. As far as I can tell it's not like this is a sustained organized fascist campaign; it seems to be this one fash who wanted to martyr himself in some kind of Nazi "propaganda of the deed" act. I mean, what would your strategy be?

Now, if it was some kind of campaign then it would be more clear what we could do to try and rally some working class resistance. When a minutemen group formed in the East Bay, my ISO branch along with some anarchists and immigrant activists shut down the Minuteman's attempts to picket on the main street in a part of the East Bay with a large South Asian immigrant population. Or our comrades in NY who responded to a speech by one of the Minutmen founders like this:

PuNXmy0e5fc

Because it's hard to organize an opposition to racism that manifests itself in a random act of terror brought about by a general atmosphere of xenophobia created by a government needing justifications for crack-downs at home and wars abroad.

So part of trying to create some opposition does involve trying to promote some understanding of why this is and what brought it about and why it will continue unless people organize themselves. Groups can be confronted and physically marginalized and prevented from organizing and intimidating workers on the street; the more general atmosphere which creates the random attack, is much more difficult. In my view, it would take rebuilding an anti-imperialist movement in the US to begin to counter the Islamophobic propaganda and anti-immigrant hysteria; an immigrant rights struggle; struggles against the racist hysteria in the war on drugs and so on.

So in the ISO we try and do what we can to both work in communities on things directly effecting people while connecting these specific struggles to the larger issues. Like in my branch where we are working with building a network of families of people killed by cops recently; bringing together allies from the Occupy and Oscar Grant movements. Across the bay our comrades are trying to organize opposition to increased police powers and "stop and frisk" policies. I have my differences with the PSL politically, but they too, through their group ANSWER have been organizing in Anaheim after the police attack there are trying to help build some fight-back. These are specific struggles, but they might be able to create some push back against some of the racist bullshit from the top and policies which basically promote and justify the idea that poor blacks or immigrants are automatically suspect.

If you have better ideas, I'd love to hear them, but I think right now, as occupy showed, more people are willing to fight but we are at the beginning steps of a more general working class fight back beyond just the small radical and activist circles out there now. So I wouldn't expect a big resistance to materialize after this out of nothing, but maybe one possible positive effect would be that people will be more convinced that fascism isn't just "some bad ideas" or a silly joke to allow to "embarrass themselves". Maybe people will be more willing to see them as the threat they are and we could see more resistance to organized actions and organizing attempts by fascists and Islamophobes and anti-immigrant bigots.

[Sasha]

To my experience offering to help with (night) security at targets of racist hate (mosques, community houses etc) while in general declined are always very much apriciated.

[agnixie]

I wish we could do more. If I were president, I'd have scumfront shut down and every member hanged. Or better yet, gulags!
And take away land, resources and goods workers could need? One or twelve bullets is cheaper.




This is true. They turn on each other as they strive more and more for that meaningless "purity". Interestingly enough, most people in the Middle East (I know Sikhs are not Middle Eastern) are White, and some are indistinguishable from some Europeans.

It's all superficial shit. It's sad that people kill over it.

Yeah, it paints a rather horrifying picture when modern day nazis sound more racialist than even Hitler. The fascist bloc in the EU parliament fell apart because fascists from nations that were axis members can't even go five minutes without racist insults against each other. It's honestly semi reassuring in that it's not exactly how you take power, they basically could literally only pull it off the Francoist way. I'd be more worried if some intelligently evil fascist showed up on the scene to create some sort of hyper-Gaullism or something that looks more like Baath or the original italian fascist party out of the modern day fash (ultra nationalist, third way but with toned down racist rhetoric); a tea party that wised up would have that potential :/ . That could sweep power in a shit ton of places (and not just in the west).

[Positivist]

Well with an attitude like that, if there IS a secret Nazi-killing party, we sure aren't going to invite YOU to it.

I demand an invitation immediately.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Well I'm in Cali and I don't know what ISO comrades out there are planing to do, let alone PSL or other groups. And frankly, if it happened here, I don't know what I would do. As far as I can tell it's not like this is a sustained organized fascist campaign; it seems to be this one fash who wanted to martyr himself in some kind of Nazi "propaganda of the deed" act. I mean, what would your strategy be?

Now, if it was some kind of campaign then it would be more clear what we could do to try and rally some working class resistance. When a minutemen group formed in the East Bay, my ISO branch along with some anarchists and immigrant activists shut down the Minuteman's attempts to picket on the main street in a part of the East Bay with a large South Asian immigrant population. Or our comrades in NY who responded to a speech by one of the Minutmen founders like this:

PuNXmy0e5fc

Because it's hard to organize an opposition to racism that manifests itself in a random act of terror brought about by a general atmosphere of xenophobia created by a government needing justifications for crack-downs at home and wars abroad.

So part of trying to create some opposition does involve trying to promote some understanding of why this is and what brought it about and why it will continue unless people organize themselves. Groups can be confronted and physically marginalized and prevented from organizing and intimidating workers on the street; the more general atmosphere which creates the random attack, is much more difficult. In my view, it would take rebuilding an anti-imperialist movement in the US to begin to counter the Islamophobic propaganda and anti-immigrant hysteria; an immigrant rights struggle; struggles against the racist hysteria in the war on drugs and so on.

So in the ISO we try and do what we can to both work in communities on things directly effecting people while connecting these specific struggles to the larger issues. Like in my branch where we are working with building a network of families of people killed by cops recently; bringing together allies from the Occupy and Oscar Grant movements. Across the bay our comrades are trying to organize opposition to increased police powers and "stop and frisk" policies. I have my differences with the PSL politically, but they too, through their group ANSWER have been organizing in Anaheim after the police attack there are trying to help build some fight-back. These are specific struggles, but they might be able to create some push back against some of the racist bullshit from the top and policies which basically promote and justify the idea that poor blacks or immigrants are automatically suspect.

If you have better ideas, I'd love to hear them, but I think right now, as occupy showed, more people are willing to fight but we are at the beginning steps of a more general working class fight back beyond just the small radical and activist circles out there now. So I wouldn't expect a big resistance to materialize after this out of nothing, but maybe one possible positive effect would be that people will be more convinced that fascism isn't just "some bad ideas" or a silly joke to allow to "embarrass themselves". Maybe people will be more willing to see them as the threat they are and we could see more resistance to organized actions and organizing attempts by fascists and Islamophobes and anti-immigrant bigots.

I have read your post and I applaud your efforts to combat right wing trends in a more militant fashion, but I remain unconvinced that this represents a general trend of militant confrontation. More distressing is that I think this element is showing itself to be mobilized in a fashion that these dinosaur formations of radicals may not be capable of combating. In any case I hope your organization and others like it will focus more energy on this in the future, after experiencing some success (although perhaps a little overstated) in this realm, rather than organizing for a revolution to take state power in an unlikely repeat of 1917.

I believe psycho's suggestion represents a good starting point. Antifascist patrols in effected neighborhoods could do some real good. It would be good to clash with these types in a space outside of the internet. It may also act as a psychological weapon for us. The State is generally out to get everyone, so having it's lapdogs after them likely accounts for nothing from their point of view, however their community turning against them and demonstrating it's willingness to confront them in the streets may put them on the defensive for a change.

The right has had the privilege of choosing it's battles on it's own terms for decades in this country, I would say it's time that they lost this privilege. I hope your organization and others like it are sincere in their desire to do this and if that's the case I hope they are successful.

[Rottenfruit]

I'm not being rude, or at least that is not my intention. With that being said I am going to go ahead and spill the beans for the feds and the nazis because it just so happens that I am privy to information regarding the coming militant response for this act. In a stunning act of left unity, the wwp, psl, iso, etc, etc, etc will come together to do precisely nothing. They will do this because they are powerless to do anything else, and why they are in that position is what they should be expending their effort on.

The Sikh community’s response will be one of its own creation, and one that doesn’t require the input from the lenin cosplay community.

If I’m wrong on this you have my word that I’ll be wherever the confrontation is, but until then I will discuss this event here on the sidelines right next to you and your organizations.
Let the familys mourn there loved ones before you go bashing facisit as a retliation strike for them attacking sihks which might result in more fash attacking sikhs,

My guess is that the familys that have lost there loved ones in this horribul racist hate crime do not want anti racists or any acticvits group using the death of there loved for there own agenda at this movement.

Let them grief in peace please. Show humanity unlike the nazi scum

Do the sikhs want antifa patrolling the streets where they live in the first place?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Let the familys mourn there loved ones before you go bashing facisit as a retliation strike for them attacking sihks which might result in more fash attacking sikhs,

My guess is that the familys that have lost there loved ones in this horribul racist hate crime do not want anti racists or any acticvits group using the death of there loved for there own agenda at this movement.

Let them grief in peace please. Show humanity unlike the nazi scum

Do the sikhs want antifa patrolling the streets where they live in the first place?

On one hand this is reasonable, however if we use this reasoning elsewhere do we see a demand for communism in our communities?

Why is it acceptable to pursue communism against the wishes of the majority while it is unacceptable to confront fascism in the street? Where does this breakdown originate from? If these kind of attacks represent a threat which they obviously do, why it is necessary to wait for say 70 or 80 percent of the population to approve of our tactics before we deploy them?

[Leftsolidarity]

I have read your post and I applaud your efforts to combat right wing trends in a more militant fashion, but I remain unconvinced that this represents a general trend of militant confrontation. More distressing is that I think this element is showing itself to be mobilized in a fashion that these dinosaur formations of radicals may not be capable of combating. In any case I hope your organization and others like it will focus more energy on this in the future, after experiencing some success (although perhaps a little overstated) in this realm, rather than organizing for a revolution to take state power in an unlikely repeat of 1917.

I believe psycho's suggestion represents a good starting point. Antifascist patrols in effected neighborhoods could do some real good. It would be good to clash with these types in a space outside of the internet. It may also act as a psychological weapon for us. The State is generally out to get everyone, so having it's lapdogs after them likely accounts for nothing from their point of view, however their community turning against them and demonstrating it's willingness to confront them in the streets may put them on the defensive for a change.

The right has had the privilege of choosing it's battles on it's own terms for decades in this country, I would say it's time that they lost this privilege. I hope your organization and others like it are sincere in their desire to do this and if that's the case I hope they are successful.

That is up to the communities to organize, we could only give resources for something like that. You can't just walk into a community and say "let's have anti-fascist patrols all the time" they need to come to that conclusion if they feel it's needed. Also, it is honestly not needed in a place like Oak Creek anyways. While this is far more than some lone asshole gone crazy, this was not something that could have been physically confronted like that in the community.

I completely agree with pyscho's post and just showed the post to some other comrades who also think its a good idea.

Like ive said though, the boneheads in the region are (for the most part) only loosely organized or completely unorganized. They are not marching in the streets and when they tried that last year they were smashed and ran out of town because of the hard work of the parties in the area (some of which you were just condemning for not doing anything).

While not trying to downplay their significance, this problem is not stemming from these boneheads in the area. It is stemming from the conditions that are fostering more of them. There are much big things to deal with (like the racist policies) than the racists who hold their largely unnoticed little shows. That is what should be focused on right now.

And please don't take that as me saying the boneheads are no threat or that we shouldn't confront them. I'm saying that there are bigger things that are enabling them and that these people are largely unable to be confronted because they don't openly gather.

This is still a political struggle more than it is wanting revenge by bashing the fash in the street.


Also, I feel like I should point out that your talk of the PSL and ISO in the area is not correct. The organizations that are most active in the Milwaukee area are WWP and FRSO as far as socialist organizations go. The PSL and ISO are more of Chicago and Madison area iirc.

[Terminator X]

They've arrested the girlfriend of the bonehead and surprise, surprise, she's also fash:


Police say they have arrested the former girlfriend of Wade Michael Page (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/wisconsin-gunman-wade-michael-pages-tattoos-racist-beliefs/story?id=16949676), the man who allegedly shot and killed six people in a Sikh temple, after authorities say they found a gun in her Milwaukee home.

Cook was taken into custody on the grounds that she is prohibited from having a gun as a convicted felon, a federal law enforcement official said. Cook was convicted in 2002 for fleeing and eluding a traffic officer.

Milwaukee police released a statement Tuesday after the arrest of Misty Cook, saying, "In a joint investigation with the FBI, the South Milwaukee Police Department has arrested Misty Cook on the crime of felon in possession of a firearm. Charges will be sought through the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office."

There's no indication Cook was involved with the attack. Much like her ex-boyfriend, according to the Anti-Defamation League, Cook was involved in white supremacy. The ADL has photos of Cook wearing a T-shirt with the name of the extremist right-wing group Volksfront. The group said that Cook had not been involved since 2008.

http://gma.yahoo.com/wisconsin-gunman-wade-michael-pages-ex-girlfriend-arrested-051737408--abc-news-topstories.html

[Terminator X]

you can't make this shit up....


Fundamentalist Christian radio host Bryan Fischer says that the white supremacist who massacred six people at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin must have been a liberal because he hated former Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain and had a “a left-wing political philosophy.”

“The tea party [is] primarily made up of white people, of evangelicals, people of faith,” Fischer explained. “We loved Herman Cain. He was a black guy. We loved him. We would have been happy to have him be our presidential candidate. This guy despised Herman Cain.”


Fischer then made the claim that Page’s identification as a neo-Nazi meant he also must have been a liberal.

“You know what the Nazi Party stands for? It’s the National Socialist Party. What about the word ‘socialist’ do you not understand? They were the National Socialist Party – that is a left-wing political philosophy,” he insisted.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/08/08/bryan-fischer-sikh-temple-shooter-was-a-liberal-because-he-hated-herman-cain/

[Sasha]

some more details about the nazi affiliations of both the shooter and his ex-gf:
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/08/08/080812-news-temple-shooting-1-2/

[bcbm]

sikh temple massacre is the outgrowth of pervasive white supremacism in the us military ranks (http://www.democracynow.org/2012/8/9/author_sikh_temple_massacre_the_outgrowth)

interesting and frightening read

[Prometeo liberado]

I'm not being rude, or at least that is not my intention. With that being said I am going to go ahead and spill the beans for the feds and the nazis because it just so happens that I am privy to information regarding the coming militant response for this act. In a stunning act of left unity, the wwp, psl, iso, etc, etc, etc will come together to do precisely nothing. They will do this because they are powerless to do anything else, and why they are in that position is what they should be expending their effort on.

The Sikh community’s response will be one of its own creation, and one that doesn’t require the input from the lenin cosplay community.

If I’m wrong on this you have my word that I’ll be wherever the confrontation is, but until then I will discuss this event here on the sidelines right next to you and your organizations.

While I was locked up I saw a picture of the rally against the Murderous Anaheim Cops. And standing up front was some guy from PSL that I recognized and Lauren Eckard-Crowe, esteemed poet and Co-leader of FRSO L.A. chapter. As well there was an Occupy O.C. contingent and P&F people. My point being is that when we are there we are chasing ambulances. When we aren't,...well read above.

[Obs]

sikh temple massacre is the outgrowth of pervasive white supremacism in the us military ranks (http://www.democracynow.org/2012/8/9/author_sikh_temple_massacre_the_outgrowth)

interesting and frightening read
It's been a common thing for a while now that fascists will join their country's military to "train" for the upcoming race war they think is bound to happen. Funny how those "skills" these fucking boneheads undoubtedly have learned (oh wait, they just get drunk and thrown home) never seem to help them when 8 chaps with galvanised pipes have a go at 'em.

Also, is it just me, or in all the group photos of this Wade fella, he looks like the kind of chubby beta motherfucker you'd only let hang out with you because you can say whatever to him, he's just too fucking frail to fight back? Even his mugshot, he has the same scared, deer-in-headlights look.