Obama was a Marxist-Leninist!!!!

[Liberty]

His college friend has admitted that Obama was once a Marxist-Leninist.

Part 1:
OmYEo_LrkL4

Part 2:
fxvq0vNY3wE

[ВАЛТЕР]

His college friend has admitted that Stalin was once a Marxist-Leninist.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/profiles/icons/big/000/041/986/ColbertNOOOOO.gif?1305378195


Yup, we knew this all along. He is one of ours. This is all part of the KGB plot to bring down freedom.

On a serious note:

Are you out of your mind? Do you know what a Marxist-Leninist is?

[Liberty]

Marxist-Leninism is a dialectic system which attempts to achieve Socialism and Communism through progress. At its core, it is Leninist, which preaches the importance of the party in society.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Marxist-Leninism is a dialectic system which attempts to achieve Socialism and Communism through progress. At its core, it is Leninist, which preaches the importance of the party in society.

Leninism in general requires a revolutionary vanguard. Keyword: "Revolutionary". Nothing Obama has done or endorsed as president has been revolutionary in the slightest.

He is a class enemy, and communists view him as such. Communists do not mask their goals, in fact we openly state them. There is no "secret communist plot" our opinions and ideas are laid out flat.

[Liberty]

Leninism in general requires a revolutionary vanguard. Keyword: "Revolutionary". Nothing Obama has done or endorsed as president has been revolutionary in the slightest.

He is a class enemy, and communists view him as such.
Was Gorbachev not viewed as a 'good guy' before he helped destroy the Soviet Union? Or Yeltsin for the same reason?

Face it, Obama is the REVOLUTIONARY VANGUARD, as he is currently depleting the US of her resources and money, which will agitate a Revolution.

I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube, who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive. Obama is doing the same, although said person called him a Social Democrat- whatever that is.

Anyway, the video was supposed to show Obama's past as a Marxist-Leninist. No one was calling him one tody.

[Per Levy]

His college friend has admitted that Stalin was once a Marxist-Leninist.

oh hey liberty, i thought you've gone away since last time you've got such an ass whooping. but hey, this time, at least, you're right about something, stalin, creator of "marxism-leninism" was a marxist leninist. im proud of you.

about obama, i dont know what you want tbh, everyone here knows that obama is cappy, and with stuff like your silly videos you might scare some democrats, but here are commies, anarchits and the likes.

[Liberty]

Obama is no more responsible for the economic crisis than George W. Bush. OMG, wait a second, GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE REVOLUTIONARY VANGUARD!!!! MORE EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!
Enough of this pointless bickering. The subject in the video illistrated how Obama was a Marxist-Leninist in his college years, and that's going to be the subject of this thread. Got IT?

[l'Enfermé]

But actually yes, it's not unlikely that Obama was a Marxist-Leninist, after all, he's not the sharpest lad around.

[Liberty]

oh hey liberty, i thought you've gone away since last time you've got such an ass whooping. but hey, this time, at least, you're right about something, stalin, creator of "marxism-leninism" was a marxist leninist. im proud of you..
That was actually a mistake. I meant to write Obama, not Stalin.

[Per Levy]

The subject in the video illistrated how Obama was a Marxist-Leninist in his college years

2 things about this, first the prove have you seen a memebership card of obama and if yes of what party was he a member?

second, who cares what obama was(or not was) in his youth, it matters what he is know, a rich fuck, who advances the interests of the capitalist class through his presidency.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Was Gorbachev not viewed as a 'good guy' before he helped destroy the Soviet Union? Or Yeltsin for the same reason?

No, he wasn't. Marxist-Leninists view everything after Stalin to be revisionist.



Face it, Obama is the REVOLUTIONARY VANGUARD, as he is currently depleting the US of her resources and money, which will agitate a Revolution.

A single person cannot be a vanguard. learn what a Vanguard is. Obamas policies are no different than Bushes or Clintons, their goals are to defend the class interests of the bourgeoisie. Every action the bourgeoisie takes is a step to their own demise. They dig their own graves.



I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube, who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive.

Yup, communists wait until class consciousness is highest, not necessarily that social conditions deteriorate but that usually is what causes people to act. Material conditions have to be right.



Obama is doing the same, although said person called him a Social Democrat- whatever that is.
He's not even that.





Anyway, the video was supposed to show Obama's past as a Marxist-Leninist. No one was calling him one tody.

You called him one, or are at least implying that he is one in this thread.

[Liberty]

2 things about this, first the prove have you seen a memebership card of obama and if yes of what party was he a member?.
Actually, the speaker touched on that. He was a member of Democratic Socialist youth, or something along those lines, which he said was a Euphemism for Marxist-Leninism.



second, who cares what obama was(or not was) in his youth, it matters what he is know, a rich fuck, who advances the interests of the capitalist class through his presidency

As the producer pointed out, this man is the President of the USA. It is important to know what his past was.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Off-topic posts deleted.

I know it isn't much of a topic but please remain on the subject and do not post images. Thanks.

[Silvr]

What does it mean to you that Obama flirted with Stalinism in his youth? What relevance does it have to his policies and his actions as the president? Honestly the opposition to Obama from American conservates is absolutely baffling to me. This is a guy whose policies and politics are to the right of Nixon. He should be a god among men to you people. I really don't get it. I can only assume that the issue here is race, because otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense.

[Aussie Trotskyist]

Was Gorbachev not viewed as a 'good guy' before he helped destroy the Soviet Union? Or Yeltsin for the same reason?

Face it, Obama is the REVOLUTIONARY VANGUARD, as he is currently depleting the US of her resources and money, which will agitate a Revolution.

I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube, who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive. Obama is doing the same, although said person called him a Social Democrat- whatever that is.

Anyway, the video was supposed to show Obama's past as a Marxist-Leninist. No one was calling him one tody.

I have a question: What are you smoking?

Even though I disagree with Marxist-Leninism (seeing it as being distorted by Stalin's opportunism [I don't want to go into any Trotsky/Stalin debates etc]), Obama is not a ML, or a Trotskyist, or a Communist, or a socialist, etc etc.

He is definitely NOT a revolutionary vanguard. The revolutionary vanguard guides the proletarian revolution to overthrow capitalism and establish socialism (in which the workers class becomes the ruling class). The Democrats support capitalism, just as the Republicans do. I'm not an American, but I think I can safely say the Democrats are at best, a liberal social democratic (wants to reform capitalism so it is fairer [pigs arse]), at worst, the exact same as the republicans (with a different image).

[#FF0000]

Enough of this pointless bickering. The subject in the video illistrated how Obama was a Marxist-Leninist in his college years, and that's going to be the subject of this thread. Got IT?

yo some of the biggest players on the american right were literally members of communist parties in the 60s.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Enough of this pointless bickering. The subject in the video illistrated how Obama was a Marxist-Leninist in his college years, and that's going to be the subject of this thread. Got IT?

I was a liberal in college; Obama and I switched.

I didn't watch the video because I didn't think it would be worth the time. Why? Because it doesn't matter. He is not a communist of any sort from ones I agree with to the ones I don't... he's not even a social democrat. He's a neo-liberal, austerity pushing, imperial head of worldwide anti-revolution (Just like a Clinton or Carter or like either Bush or a Regan)! The wealth distributed under his administration has been straight up.

The liberal Democratic Mayor of my town actually was a Maoist back in the day. So how'd she treat "fellow revolutionaries" in the Occupy movement? Shots to the face and 14 police departments mobilized to crush the protest.

It doesn't matter what somebody was, it matters who they are and what they do and what interests they represent. Even if this were true and Obama was a Stalinist at one point, he's not now and that information would only impact people who consider any connection past or present or tenuous or circumstantial to radicalism to have some kind of magical staining power. And redbaiting doesn't work that well if your audience is reds.

[Rocky Rococo]

yo some of the biggest players on the american right were literally members of communist parties in the 60s.

Yup, and the whole neo-conservative movement was founded and built by ex-Trotskyists of an earlier generation.

But back to the OP, I doubt Obama's ever been much of anything except the opportunistic neoliberal careerist on the make that he is now. His ridiculously oversold background in community organizing (which is a place many genuine left radicals end up) hides the fact that all he ever did in that field was the lowest-grade stuff, like voter reg, and that he washed out as an organizer after less than three years.

[l'Enfermé]

yo some of the biggest players on the american right were literally members of communist parties in the 60s.
That's actually a myth fabricated by the paleoconservatives against their neoconservative rivals. They chose Trotsky as the origin of this neoconservative heresy for anti-Semitic reasons.

[l'Enfermé]

Yup, and the whole neo-conservative movement was founded and built by ex-Trotskyists of an earlier generation.

But back to the OP, I doubt Obama's ever been much of anything except the opportunistic neoliberal careerist on the make that he is now. His ridiculously oversold background in community organizing (which is a place many genuine left radicals end up) hides the fact that all he ever did in that field was the lowest-grade stuff, like voter reg, and that he washed out as an organizer after less than three years.
That's an anti-semitic myth akin to "Judeo-Bolshevism" propounded by paleoconservatives >_>

[RedAnarchist]

So? Half of the Labour Party here in the UK used to call themselves communists/socialists in one way or another. Doesn't stop them being warmongering capitalists who are just the same as the Tories, except in name.

[Eadweard Merten]

There is little doubt in my mind that Obama is a Marxist-Leninist.

They go into hiding all the time, look at Alger Hiss as an example

Obama probably got his Marxist views from his real father, that Franklin Davis guy.

[Rafiq]

No distinguished Marxist Leninist would run for president of a Bourgeois statr.

[Comrade Samuel]

Those who call Obama a "secret Marxist" also call him a gay, fascist, Muslim and pretty much anything else reactionary old people are afraid of.

Stop watching fox news and actualy look at what the man has done as president, he is clearly an enemy of the working class and in no way different from any other bourgeois politician.

[Terminator X]

Actually, the speaker touched on that. He was a member of Democratic Socialist youth, or something along those lines, which he said was a Euphemism for Marxist-Leninism.

No, it's not.

[Ostrinski]

Even if he was, for which evidence is lacking, it would matter not. For now he has proven to be a very capable guardian of capital.

[#FF0000]

That's actually a myth fabricated by the paleoconservatives against their neoconservative rivals. They chose Trotsky as the origin of this neoconservative heresy for anti-Semitic reasons.

I'd have to see some compelling evidence to believe this since it is well known that some modern neoconservatives were, in fact, trotskyists.

[RedHammer]

Much as I'd like to believe that Obama is pulling a Gorbachev, I highly doubt it. As some other members pointed out, we are very plain and open about our objectives. And we don't create a "revolution" by defending capital and transferring wealth straight up.

[JPSartre12]

That audio reminds me of the Glenn Beck show :blink:

[milkmiku]

Does it matter what he was? What he is, is a puppet like all other politicians.

Romney=Obama
Same shit, different packaging.
A shame my countrymen love eating shit in a shiny wrapper.

[Igor]

Maybe he was, maybe not. So what? If that's the case, he was. A shit ton of politicians are former 60s radicals, who were pretty leftist and then went on to shit over all that when they realized there's actually some real big money on this whole being part of the ruling class thing.

[Os Cangaceiros]

That's an anti-semitic myth akin to "Judeo-Bolshevism" propounded by paleoconservatives >_>

Huh? It's pretty much an established fact that people like Irving Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, David Horowitz, Christopher Hitchens (not really a full-blown neocon, but definitely shared some of their foreign policy vision) came from left-wing backgrounds in their youth.

In fact there's an expression in the neoconservative movement, the "Kronstadt moment" (IIRC, Podhoretz coined the phrase, but I could be wrong). It's when you suddenly realize that your idealistic leftism is always going to get hijacked by opportunistic thugs...for example, for David Frum, it was when he was a youngster working for the Canadian NDP and someone handed him the "Gulag Archipelago", for Horowitz it was when the Black Panthers allegedly murdered one of his friends, etc.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Who cares, I used to be a conservative. Why doesn't it matter when conservatives used to be communists though? I remember watching Huckabees show one day and a Bush official on the program said that he used to be a card carrying member of the Communist Party.

And I find the "evidence" of his "radicalism" to not be very strong. He says some nice things about someone who may have been part of the CPUSA(Frank Marshall Davis)? So what. You know how many liberals I've heard foaming at the mouth when they're talking about Angela Davis? Talk to them about socialism though and "that's too radical, we need a more balanced mixed economy". Liberals love to talk about how inspirational our spirits to fight the system are, but in the end tell us we're Utopian or some shit like that.

[DinodudeEpic]

Okay, I'm literally going to return to this forum just to say that I'm sick of the "OBAMA IZ A KOMMUNIZT!" bullshit. (And, the user who mocks the word 'Liberty' with his bullshit.)

I don't need to elaborate, because everything has been said.

[Hiero]

I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube, who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive.

Enough said.

[Zostrianos]

His college friend has admitted that Obama was once a Marxist-Leninist.


Yep. And his real name is Barack Osama. He's a Nazi-Stalinist-Socialist-Muslim who wants to impose an evil dictatorship on America where only gays will be allowed to marry. And to top it all off, he wasn't even born in the US! :rolleyes:

But seriously, again this Liberty guy is obviously a Teabagger.

[RedHammer]

I can't take people seriously who call Obama a Fascist and a Communist in the same breath. Or worse, a Fascist Communist Muslim Jew. Who is a left-winger at that.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, other people have made the reasoned and intelligent arguements against your absurd assertions about Obama's politics (past and present) so I'm going to just laugh at you.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

(oh and Mussolini was a card-carrying socialist once too, so fuck off with the notion that 'once a member of a certain political party always a member...' nonsense :laugh::laugh:)

[RedHammer]

(oh and Mussolini was a card-carrying socialist once too, so fuck off with the notion that 'once a member of a certain political party always a member...' nonsense
Excellent point.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube, who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive. Obama is doing the same, although said person called him a Social Democrat- whatever that is.

Are you serious--

oh, wait, I think I know the answer to that one

[roy]

let's all stop pretending, people. the jig's up. someone alert our dear leader that his position has been compromised... the revolution must begin now!

[Blake's Baby]

But, wait, I was religious when I was 14, now I'm an atheist - does that mean I'm part of a secret Calvinist conspiracy (so secret, I don't even know I'm a member) to take over TEH COMMUNIZMZ by (secretly) being all religious at y'all? EEEK!

[Geiseric]

Obama is probably closer to... I don't know, JFK, than Stalin.

Also Marxist Leninist means specifically Stalinist. Socialism in One Country is what makes it "Marxist Leninism," as opposed to "Marxism," or "Leninism," or even "Bolshevism," since those ideologies have an international outlook whereas Stalin "built socialism in one country." (He didn't though, the Soviet State just wanted to consolidate its position and eventually return to capitalism, which it eventually did.)

[Igor]

Obama is probably closer to... I don't know, JFK, than Stalin.

Probably?

[#FF0000]

Obama is literally to the right of Nixon.

[Rocky Rococo]

I think Obama and Bush I are about the same political orientation.

[cynicles]

You're all wrong! Obama is clearly a secret member of the Venus Project!

[rylasasin]

His college friend has admitted that Obama was once a Marxist-Leninist.


Some two-bit nimrod "admits" that obama was a Marxist-Leninist* ... So? What does this change in the present? Does it magically change the direction of his policy making in the present?

I think not. He's still a neo liberal and still makes neo liberal policies, regardless of weither or not he once supported marxist-leninism.

*= which is highly doubtful, by the way. Where is the evidence backing this claim up besides one guy's testimony?! A single guy saying something in a youtube video does not a truth make. :rolleyes:
Basically, it sounds to me like this is just another retard trying to get his 15 minutes of youtube fame by spouting off shit, just like all the idiots who "admitted" he wasn't born in the US.
It's funny how whenever anyone has anything good to say about communism (or Obama for that matter, since to teafartiers like you think they're one and the same... dispite... you know... all evidence to the contrary, and despite pretty much every credible Marxist-Leninist (let alone every communist) not supporting him at all, and seeing him as simply "not-mccain/not-rommney" at best and the exact same thing or even worse in a way at worst.)) they're "evil lying scumbags trying to destroy america," yet the minute someone says anything bad about communism (or again, obuma,) what they say is instantly believable and true even without a shred of evidence to back it up.


Marxist-Leninism is a dialectic system which attempts to achieve Socialism and Communism through progress. At its core, it is Leninist, which preaches the importance of the party in society.

That's cute. The teapartier is trying to not sound like a complete nitwit... by blatantly displaying his lack of knowledge on the subject.

Look, that kind of brazen ignorance might fly at your local town hall meeting in front of a bunch of people who know nothing of Marxist theory and don't have the time, resources, or interest to go look it up, but here on a board populated by intellectuals who basically discuss this subject day in and day out, you're certainly going to have to do way better than that.


Was Gorbachev not viewed as a 'good guy' before he helped destroy the Soviet Union? Or Yeltsin for the same reason?

No they were not.


Face it, Obama is the REVOLUTIONARY VANGUARD,

No he is not, as was clearly pointed out already.


as he is currently depleting the US of her resources and money, which will agitate a Revolution.

You do of course realize there's a huge difference between "waiting for social conditions to deteriorate before going on the offensive", as you put it, and "on purposely acting against the working class by bailing out the banks, cutting social programs, passing a shitty health bill that benefits the insurance companies instead of the working class, staying in and starting new imperialist wars, etc, in some hopes of starting some form of revolultion," right?

Besides, the idea that by doing the things he does in order to agitate a revolution against... well... himself, is utterly ridiculous. AT BEST.


I recently spoke to a Marxist-Leninist, on Youtube,

And that's your problem. YouTube is filled to the brim with the most brazenly reactionary and retarded people on the planet, and as such it's pretty much the last place you'd want to go to find a reliable M-L (or leftist of any other tendency for that matter) to talk to, as most "communists" on YouTube amount to little more than Red Alert/World At War USSR fanboys that honestly have no idea what they're talking about at all.

Granted, there are a few good leftists on youtube, like Brendanmcooney (though he's not a M-L. He stays away from tendency wars and focuses almost specifically on marxist theory of economics/das kapital, and hardly ever talks about communism/anarchism at all.) But they're very few and even farther between.

Youtube is good if you wanna find music to listen to or find previews for games or mods or find something to laugh at or something of that nature. But if you're looking for an education, especially when it comes to all things Marxism, well... you'd best look elsewhere.


who said that Marxist-Leninists wait for social conditions to deterierate before going on the offensive. Obama is doing the same, although said person called him a Social Democrat- whatever that is.

First off, wrong wrong wrong. It's when the class consciousnesses of the working class is high enough, and when capitalism can support itself no longer. See, this is what I mean with youtube "Marxist-Leninists". They have no idea what they're talking about.

Though social conditions do play a large part: people begin to question their system and look for alternatives lot more when they're struggling to make ends meet than when they're living extremely comfortable. That is the whole idea behind Keynesianism.

However, waiting untill social conditions are bad is neither the only way the working class becomes socially aware of their situation, nor is it even the most favorable (as people in desperation often tend to turn to ultra-reactionary ideologies such as fascism (when the current capitalist state is weak and failing) and/or libertarianism or objectivism (when the captialist state is strong but failing.) instead. The Tea party is a good example of this.)

And again you display your appalling ignorance by not knowing what a Social Democrat is and not even bothering to take the 2 minutes required to go and look it up.


Anyway, the video was supposed to show Obama's past as a Marxist-Leninist. No one was calling him one today.

Despite the fact that you were trying to just that earlier in your post by claiming he's the revolutionary vanguard and that he's actively trying to cause a revolution (which, again, is utterly ridiculous.) And also these kinds of people do not try to say "Obama was a Marxist-Leninist/Muslim/etc." Unless their aim is to imply that he is still one today.

We know how these people operate. This is nothing new to us. And quite frankly if you think we don't know what you're really trying to do with this topic, then think again. Though I'll point that little bit out later.


Actually, the speaker touched on that. He was a member of Democratic Socialist youth, or something along those lines, which he said was a Euphemism for Marxist-Leninism.

Which proves that the speaker is speaking completely out of his ass as Democratic socialism is a completely different tendency from Marxist-Leninism and the two generally have a large amount of animosity between each other.


As the producer pointed out, this man is the President of the USA. It is important to know what his past was.

Not really. What's more important is what his present is and what he stands for/is doing now as there's plenty to hate him for and stand against as it is without having to resort to digging up useless tidbits on his past which have no bearing on the present time which rightards seem all too obsessed with digging up.

Really, all this amounts to is a sad attempt to reiterate the long tired argument of "Barack Obama and/or liberals are communists" line because rightards cannot argue against the left based on what the left actually stands for, and therefore they need to play these ridiculous PR games and try to turn it into an idiotic "communism=big gov" strawman based on what they want communists to stand and fight for and against rather than what they actually do.

And while such sickeningly cheap tactics might work on the unwashed masses sitting in front of their TVs and in their town hall meetings... we are not the unwashed masses, and would highly appreciate it if you quit wasting our time with useless teabagger tricks especially since most of us don't support or even really care about Obama let alone what he may or may not have done in his college years.

[Zealot]

Good work Comrade Obama. I always knew he was one of ours. But don't tell too many people!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZkSSURCm3FI/SdWl350DyoI/AAAAAAAABzM/lCUKZbsw9Vs/s400/obama1yg4.jpg

But seriously, don't tell anyone because it's fucking stupid and, even if true, is of no relevance to his present political leanings.

[Eadweard Merten]

Stop watching fox news and actualy look at what the man has done as president, he is clearly an enemy of the working class and in no way different from any other bourgeois politician.

Marxists want a Big State.

Obama has increased size of The State massively by socializing Health Care.

Obama is working to immanentize the eschaton...


I can't take people seriously who call Obama a Fascist and a Communist in the same breath. Or worse, a Fascist Communist Muslim Jew. Who is a left-winger at that.

Why not?

Fascists worship The State ('Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State) and commies seek to create a much larger State whereas they control the means of production.

Obama has sought to increase the size of The State with socialized health care. His behavior is in line with the ends of Fascism and Communism.

He has sought to take over the means of production as well (taking over General Motors, until brave heroic Republicans forced him to return it to the Private Sector).

As a Conservative Libertarian wary of Statist Power I see very little difference between the behaviors of Mussolini, Stalin,... and Obama. All peas in a pod.

[Geiseric]

Wow you don't have a clue what fascism nor communism is, so start there bro. Fascism is basically capitalism on steroids brought by a core of declassed petit bourgeois ultra reactionaries, ultimately pro big buisness and ultimately in the service of capitalists.

The workers state is completely different from a fascist state. A workers state represents the proletariat ruling or even destroying the bourgeois class, whereas a fascist state is out to eliminate the contradictions existing within capital by destroying the working class. You should watch Schindlers List, it kinda has to deal with this.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Marxists want a Big State.

No, Marxists want a proletariat state as a transition stage between capitalism and communism. If it is "big" or "small" depends wholly on material conditions, etc.


Obama has increased size of The State massively by socializing Health Care.

1. The healthcare law is extremely weak and not socialization, but this is another topic.
2. This argument relies on faulty logic. Following your logic here to show Obama is a socialist ("socialists like big government, the government is bigger under Obama, Obama is a socialist) then your right-wing buddy George W. Bush was a great socialist, increasing the power of the executive branch with the Patriot Act and whatnot. Your argument is ridiculous, and because your argument is an extension of who you are, you are ridiculous.

Obama is not a socialist and is not leading the United States down the path of socialism. Obama still supports overtly capitalist organizations (the IMF, World Bank, etc.), the law of value, generalized commodity production, money as the general equivalent, etc. still exist, etc.


Fascists worship The State ('Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State) and commies seek to create a much larger State whereas they control the means of production.Obama has sought to increase the size of The State with socialized health care. His behavior is in line with the ends of Fascism and Communism.

Wow, you are a fucking dipshit.


He has sought to take over the means of production as well (taking over General Motors, until brave heroic Republicans forced him to return it to the Private Sector).

Nationalized property isn't socialist, especially when the property is nationalized by the bourgeois state. The law of value, the anarchy of the market, etc. can exist right alongside nationalized property.


As a Conservative Libertarian wary of Statist Power I see very little difference between the behaviors of Mussolini, Stalin,... and Obama. All peas in a pod.

Then you're a complete and utter moron if you don't see the difference between Mussolini, Stalin, and Obama. Yeah, I am no fan of Obama, but he is not a Stalinist or fascist. You have to be a complete and utter moron to believe that.

[rylasasin]

Marxists want a Big State.

Aaaaaannnnd another another one steps in to weave the idiotic "big government" strawman I just talked about in my last post.

Again, rightards come here and somehow think they can tell us what marxism is and and isn't, and think they somehow have the authority and knowledge to tell us what we want and don't want dispite having next to no knowledge on the subject beyond what the fox noise bullshit machine spews out on a daily bases.

And quite frankly it's getting irritating since we hear it from every single two bit troll that's ever come and gone from here.


Obama has increased size of The State massively by socializing Health Care.

Brosa Luxemburg already debunked this point quite well so I don't feel the need to add onto it, other than by saying that


Obama is working to immanentize the eschaton...

Protip: using big obscure words doesn't lend your arguments any additional credibility, so might I suggest you stop trying to use them in some vain attempt to sound smart when it's appalling apparent that you're anything but.


Obama has sought to increase the size of The State with socialized health care. His behavior is in line with the ends of Fascism and Communism.

Go learn what Communism is (and no, running to conservapedia or some other right wing out is not "learning what it is," that's confirmation bias.) and then come back instead of continuing to make these ridiculous strawman arguments.


He has sought to take over the means of production as well (taking over General Motors, until brave heroic Republicans forced him to return it to the Private Sector).

you mean the same "brave heroic Republicans" that increased the size of the state by enacting the patriot act, that constantly vote for state-sizing things like SOPA, CISPA, and other junk, and not to mention spend billions on imperialistic wars? Oh, and not to mention all the shit they rammed through after 9/11, which... you guessed it, increased the interventionism of the state.

Funny that....

You shame libertarians with that line.


As a Conservative Libertarian wary of Statist Power I see very little difference between the behaviors of Mussolini, Stalin,... and Obama. All peas in a pod.

Nice argument from personal incredulity (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity) there sport. .... not really. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but what "you see" has no bearing on the material reality of the matter and unless you want to quickly become the next whipping boy of the board like so many others before you, I suggest you start doing some actual research so you know what you're talking about rather than trying to waste our time with done-a-million-times big government strawmen, red herrings about Obama, and arguments from ignorance.

http://www.marxists.org/ would be a good starting place.

[Blake's Baby]

Marxists want a Big State...

No, Marxists want the destruction of the state.


Obama has increased size of The State massively by socializing Health Care...

1 - 'massively'? Compared to, I don't know, the defence budget?

2 - increasing the size of the state proves he's not a Marxist.


Obama is working to immanentize the eschaton...

Eschatology is not Marxism. You may as well claim he's a Baptist.

By the way, he's a Baptist. You can't be a Baptist and believe in Magic Man in the Sky, and be a Marxist who doesn't believe in Magic Man in the Sky.



Why not?...

Because fascism is a method of organising the state in capitalism, and socialism is the destruction of capitalism and the state.

A thing cannot be both itself, and the opposite of itself.


...
Fascists worship The State ('Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State) and commies seek to create a much larger State whereas they control the means of production...

Actually, neither of those things are true. Fascists worship the nation. The state is seen as an emanation of the nation, bringing all classses in it together.

Communists oppose the state, the nation, and all forms of cross-class collaboration. Communists seek the destruction of the state. The 'means of production' will be controlled by the working class, not by 'the Communists'.


Obama has sought to increase the size of The State with socialized health care. His behavior is in line with the ends of Fascism and Communism...

If he's a fascist, what 'nation' is he the Fuehrer of then?

Or, alternatively, if he's a communist, how has he sought to destroy any nations or states by bringing the working class to power?


He has sought to take over the means of production as well (taking over General Motors, until brave heroic Republicans forced him to return it to the Private Sector)...

So? He sought to stabilise American capitalism. He's a capitalist. Did you expect him to let GM go to the wall?

Engels in 1880 argued that nationalisation was no answer for the working class, because the working class's interest is in destroying the state not strengthening it.


As a Conservative Libertarian wary of Statist Power I see very little difference between the behaviors of Mussolini, Stalin,... and Obama. All peas in a pod.

Yeah, in some ways you're right, because in many ways they were all conservative nationalist supporters of capitalism. All developed methods to promote what they saw as the interests of the national capitalism that they were administering. You're not going to get many arguments that capitalist politicians are good.

Some people may tell you what Stalin did had something to do with communism, however. You're allowed to ignore them. The Soviet Union was capitalist and imperialist state (as is China, as is Cuba). Just capitalism organised in a different form.

Really, if you're gonna argue about something, it pays to do even a modicum of resaerch. Go on; read some books. Dare yah.

[Igor]

He has sought to take over the means of production as well (taking over General Motors, until brave heroic Republicans forced him to return it to the Private Sector

Yyyeah sorry dude, you blew it all here. Better luck trolling next time, I guess.

[Thirsty Crow]

There's no need to repeat that this whole issue is bullshit.

But it's interesting that there's a sort of a double argument here from OP.

First, the idea is to cast doubt on the credibility and whatnot of Mr. Obama by referencing a testimonial which conflates American democratic socialism with Marxism-Leninism (it's not that this is actually necessary; for the original purpose, it would be enough to point out that some guy swears that Obama was a member of a socialist organization). Which is just lazy thinking since all evidence to the contrary, the fundamental difference between democratic socialism and M-Lism is disregarded. But that's the point to trolling after all, even if you want to troll while actually holding a certain opinion.

But then there is this precious thought: since communists emphasize the importance of concrete material condtions, and Obama is actually, and obviously, advancing a rapid deterioration of those in the US (he's what, wasting resources and sucking out the money out of the economy? - I can't be bothered with going through it all again to find the quote), then Obama must be a factor aiding communism unwittingly. A communist without even recognizing it.

Of course, there is no single shred of evidence provided for these bold assertions, that a head of state is actually responsible for social and economic crisis by the virtue of concrete policies and maybe even pre-planned. You have to blame someone for the shit you're in when it becomes outright delusional to pretend you're living in fantasy land where unicorns shit little nuggets of concentrated Liberty, and dollars fall out of the sky. Why not the big guy, the head of state, who's after all black, has a funny name, is maybe of foreign descent, that was marketed as the next big thing in progressive politics (while progressive politics is enough to sound the socialist alarm bell) and obviously, the guy has massive power at disposal. We wouldn't want to think of the possibility that the very core of modern society produces such outcomes.


When you paste these two into a somewhat coherent whole, the picture you get is old: beware of the potential communist in disguise. But I was slightly surprised with this second argument, I must admit.

[Thirsty Crow]

Marxists want a Big State
Really?
just how big? How many departments are we talking about here? How many state employees?


Obama has increased size of The State massively by socializing Health Care.You wouldn't know anything about socialized heath care since the modest reform enacted by the administration doesn't amount to any such thing.


Obama is working to immanentize the eschaton...Obviously.


Fascists worship The State ('Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State) and commies seek to create a much larger State whereas they control the means of production.

Cherry picking at its best.
Why this obssessive focus on the issues of the state? Why is it so hard to recognize that, historically and in contemporary politics, (neo)fascists advocate above all else class collaboration - which means that private property is not socialized - and the suppression of workers' militancy and especially of their political organizations. This is the real source of the state fetish sported by fascists, since it appears as the only possible guarantee of national cohesion in the face of class struggle.

But I'm well aware that people like yourself are not capable, or willing, to think these things trough. After all, conflation is your favorite game, and any political doctrine which doesn't advocate the so called minimal state is pretty much the same, right? Social democracy, communism, fascism, no use in making silly distinctions.

[A Marxist Historian]

But actually yes, it's not unlikely that Obama was a Marxist-Leninist, after all, he's not the sharpest lad around.

Couldn't be wronger, Obama is the sharpest leader the US ruling class has had in decades. That he is a former Marxist is not at all surprising. Saying he wasn't too bright 'cuz he was a Stalinist (pardon me, "Marxist Leninist") is an ignorant and stupid thing to say, indicating that Obama is at any rate a lot sharper than l'Enferme, but that's no surprise.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Actually, the speaker touched on that. He was a member of Democratic Socialist youth, or something along those lines, which he said was a Euphemism for Marxist-Leninism.

As the producer pointed out, this man is the President of the USA. It is important to know what his past was.

Oh. Then the guy was full of crap. The youth group of DSA are just social democrats of the worst sort, notorious for supporting Democrats like, well, Obama.

So the mystery is solved.

-M.H.-

[Geiseric]

Funny story about DSA, a friend of mine was on a panel against one of their people on national TV. Hilarious stuff.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-8-2012/the-socialist-network

[khad]

Seeing as this thread has devolved into chit chattery and is of little or no informational value, I'm going to go ahead and close it.

Ya'll had your fun. You can be quiet now.