Would you be able to indulge in a communist society?

[RedHammer]

Would there be buffets?
Would you be able to splurge?
Would there be room for creature comforts and luxuries?

How would entertainment and recreation work?

Of course this is all speculation. I'm just interested in your thoughts.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

You'd fucking better be.

I want to enjoy some level of what you might call 'excess'. Just a few extra choccy bics and a buffet binge on Sundays.

[RedHammer]

I want to enjoy some level of what you might call 'excess'. Just a few extra choccy bics and a buffet binge on Sundays.

I think we all would. The question is, would an economy free of capitalist chaos be even more productive such that wealth would be more abundant?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well considering that we produce more food than we can eat as it is, I don't doubt that people will find even better ways to produce the food we want even more easily and efficiently and less wastefully when we are producing for ourselves, not profit.

Entertainment - well who knows how people will entertain themselves in a new society - People in WWII couldn't have predicted video games and people in Mid-evil Europe of course could not have predicted that the staged religious performances of their day would develop into popular theater; that paintings of shapes or even landscapes would replace paintings of religious themes or rich people's portraits. But day one after the revolution we can focus on improving information infrastructure so that any previously recorded piece of digital information, and MP3, video, program, digitized text, and so on would be free and easily available to anyone. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

But assuming that basic needs are taken care of, I have no doubt that our priorities as humans would be making our labor part of a creative process, as well as creating time and space to enjoy and create things for the sake of art or enjoyment. To me that's the whole point - we already have scarsity and lack - we want to share in the surplus that society can create in order to make our lives better and more enjoyable and more fulfilling.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Humans have been having feasts, parties, orgies and symposia since long before capitalism. I would think that with the advent of communism this state of affairs would generally remain, except that more people would be able to engage in such activities more often.

Why would things be otherwise?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I think we all would. The question is, would an economy free of capitalist chaos be even more productive such that wealth would be more abundant?

That's the theory, at least it's an arguement i've heard said before, that in a communist society the artificial scarcities prevelant under capitalism would not exist so their would be far less, or maybe none, of the shortages and wants many have now.

[cynicles]

orgies

promise?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

promise?

Actually if I remember correctly, it was Roman orgies that were mainly intellectual events while Greek symposia were mainly wild parties with a side order of poetry reading, contrary to popular conception.

I could be wrong, though.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

promise?

This is the learning forum, not chit chat.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

I think this bears repeating. The point for Marxists is not equality per se. It is to raise the level of production (and distribution) so that everyone has more. Obviously, the world has the productive capacity today to do away with hunger and homelessness. Once production can be organized along more rational lines, there will be tremendous abundance.

[A Marxist Historian]

Would there be buffets?
Would you be able to splurge?
Would there be room for creature comforts and luxuries?

How would entertainment and recreation work?

Of course this is all speculation. I'm just interested in your thoughts.

If there is no abundance, there can be no communism. So if there is no room for buffets, splurging, creature comforts and luxuries, society has not yet advanced to the material level that would make communism an actual possibility.

Communism is a particular relationship between human beings and the forces of production only possible when the productive forces of society have advanced far beyond what they are now.

Meanwhile, the working class needs to take control over society, establish what Marxists call "the dictatorship of the proletariat," so we can begin the long and arduous struggle to first create a socialist society, its principle being "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work" (and those who don't work don't eat, like the Bible says) and then finally a communist society, the principle being "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

A society in which, despite Mick Jagger, you can always get what you want, and you get to decide for yourself what you need.

-M.H.-

[Raúl Duke]

Of course,
I hope post-revolution I can have a festival of a party with all sorts of stuff.

[ckaihatsu]

No.

After the grand upheaval that finally sloughs off capitalist domination the populace will slump into a profound exhaustion and then quietly slip into a prolonged malaise that is stereotypically attributed to left-wingers.

With full equality and no discernable differentiation anymore, and with all humane needs instantly provided for with automation, everyone will exhibit an unending lethargy, barely able to exert the effort required to respond "Meh" to the slightest comment or inquiry.

The weather will correspondingly turn overcast and remain that way, everywhere, forever. A short voice recording from one of the younger generations will be the only record of the period, with their youthful exuberance energizing them enough to mumble an incoherent account of that moment.

Too tired to fuck, the human race's continued existence will remain in doubt, perhaps left to possible human-beast hybrid breeds made possible by particularly curious, social, and horny animals that came wandering near.

[RedHammer]

Is it really true that we have the means to meet the whole needs of humanity right now? I mean, in terms of food and industry.

[ckaihatsu]

From past discussions here at RevLeft I've found that people are often not even thinking about the same things when they use the terms 'scarcity' and 'abundance' -- the problem is in the terms themselves, which are *blanket* terms, and are excessively vague to be useful on their own.

It may be more helpful to talk about 'scarcity' and 'abundance' on a *per-item* basis. One person's sense of 'indulging' may be very different than the next.

[The Jay]

We would be able to consume as much as is agreed to produce that isn't used for storage. For most things, such as food, I don't think we'll have to worry about not being able to indulge. For things such as making a golden toilet or personal jet, no chance in hell.

[ckaihatsu]

We would be able to consume as much as is agreed to produce that isn't used for storage. For most things, such as food, I don't think we'll have to worry about not being able to indulge. For things such as making a golden toilet or personal jet, no chance in hell.


God-*damn*-it!!!

They specifically *told* me there'd be a personal jet with a golden toilet at the end of it all...! *Now* what do I do??


= D

[The Jay]

God-*damn*-it!!!

They specifically *told* me there'd be a personal jet with a golden toilet at the end of it all...! *Now* what do I do??


= D

That's just a trick they use to get you to sign on the dotted line. Prepare for stop-loss in two years.

[ckaihatsu]

That's just a trick they use to get you to sign on the dotted line. Prepare for stop-loss in two years.


If I have to pick up and use a keyboard *any time* within the next 24 months, I-- I don't know.... I just *don't know* what I might do...!


= )

[RedHammer]

So is there a place for luxury at all?

[cynicles]

No.

After the grand upheaval that finally sloughs off capitalist domination the populace will slump into a profound exhaustion and then quietly slip into a prolonged malaise that is stereotypically attributed to left-wingers.

With full equality and no discernable differentiation anymore, and with all humane needs instantly provided for with automation, everyone will exhibit an unending lethargy, barely able to exert the effort required to respond "Meh" to the slightest comment or inquiry.

The weather will correspondingly turn overcast and remain that way, everywhere, forever. A short voice recording from one of the younger generations will be the only record of the period, with their youthful exuberance energizing them enough to mumble an incoherent account of that moment.

Too tired to fuck, the human race's continued existence will remain in doubt, perhaps left to possible human-beast hybrid breeds made possible by particularly curious, social, and horny animals that came wandering near.


This is the learning forum, not chit chat.

!!!!!!!!!

[Misanthrope]

A socio economic policy usually doesn't account for buffets or entertainment, but of course it will exist because there will be a demand for it.

[ckaihatsu]

So is there a place for luxury at all?


Actually, of far more concern than the bulk-material *availability* of luxury-type stuff for a post-revolution world population (since much could be time-shared or readily produced), would be the *social* aspect -- then as now -- about *how much* enjoyment of luxuries / pleasures would be socially appropriate.

This would especially be the case *during* revolutionary upheaval when conditions could very well *necessitate* a certain degree of political participation without distraction. (Consider that for members of certain generations the critical, inescapable question is "What were you doing during the war?")

[Comrades Unite!]

Would there be buffets?
Would you be able to splurge?
Would there be room for creature comforts and luxuries?

How would entertainment and recreation work?

Of course this is all speculation. I'm just interested in your thoughts.

I don't think anybody here can predict this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaX9gMt6sXg

[#FF0000]

it will literally be a fantasia of hedonism

edit: quote time:

"Socialism means plenty for all. We do not preach a gospel of want and scarcity, but of abundance … We do not call for limitation of births, for penurious thrift, and self-denial. We call for a great production that will supply all, and more than all the people can consume."
- Sylvia Pankhurst

[cynicles]

There would be certain limitation of thing's that have environmental impacts, those are the only lmits I can think of and even then there are ways to get around a lot of that.

[A Marxist Historian]

We would be able to consume as much as is agreed to produce that isn't used for storage. For most things, such as food, I don't think we'll have to worry about not being able to indulge. For things such as making a golden toilet or personal jet, no chance in hell.

Actually, Lenin suggested that gold would be used in the future socialist society as the construction material for public restrooms, as it is excellent for that and has few real other uses.

-M.H.-