Xenophobic statements about Islam [Archive]

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Comrade #138672

27th July 2012, 09:40

Rottenfruit

27th July 2012, 10:21

I've been debating with some fascists lately; about their irrational fear of Islam. One of them is a self-proclaimed expert on Islam who has "studied" the religion for 5 years. Even though I highly doubt that she's as knowledgable as she claims to be; there may be a few statements that need to be examined more closely as they're constantly repeated by a lot of different fascists. I will list some of these statements. I hope some of you can provide me with some extra insights.

(Yes, the following has actually been said more or less.)

1. In 10 years the total number of Muslims will have doubled. By increasing their numbers, they gain more political power and will eventually take over by using our democratic system against us. Then they will introduce Sharia law.

2. It's wrong to criticize Islam critics (or Islam watchers as they like to call themselves), because then you would be helping the Muslims. Helping the Muslims means helping the terrorists.

3. You can't compare Islam critics with Nazis, not even a little. Nazis are "socialists" and these are the people who are letting the Muslims take over "our" country. Since Nazis are fascists and have conspired with Muslims; the Islam critics must be the anti-fascists; the heroes. "Socialists" are the real fascists.

4. Unlike Christians, Muslims will never truly adapt to society. They may pretend that they have adapted, but in reality they're deceiving you. Apparently they're allowed to do this to a great extent (taqiyya). This is their wild card against Muslims. It's impossible to disprove. They will not be able to say anything that can't be "countered" with the taqiyya claim. And even those people who are not Muslims and defend Muslims are not trustworthy, because these people are brainwashed by the Muslims and their taqiyya.

That's it for now. You don't have to look at every statement. I just need some more insights to learn to deal with these people; whether I like it or not. Almost 15% of the population here is voting for the fascist party spreading this sick ideology. They need to be stopped. Perhaps some of these people can be reasoned out of this fascist ideology.

Taqiyaa is a doctrine that allows you to lie about you being a muslim to save your life ,family or your self from harm. For example if muslims were being killed by christians, a muslim would be allowed to lie and say hes a christian to save his life.

Islamic terroists groups and a few fringe extremist islamic sects use taqiyya(the ones who belive in worldwide calpihate) as a end to justify the means.

Even lying to muslims and killing and blaming it on the west is a justified act by al quida for example

I´m no fan of islam and find alot of it to be bonkers, i think all of the Abrahamic religions have been a curse to the human race. The quran has more war mentalty in it then the bible does(read both back to back) and i find that to be a huge danger

1.Higly doubt it

2. Absurd but legtitime criticism of Islam must not be stifled, the killing of homosexuals in Iran and Saudi Arabia is sickining,human right violations cannot be allowed to happend just because relegion allows it,

3. Err what?

4.w00t

#FF0000

27th July 2012, 10:26

Taqiyaa is a doctrine that allows you to lie about you being a muslim to save your life ,family or your self from harm. For example if muslims were being killed by christians, a muslim would be allowed to lie and say hes a christian to save his life.

Christianity (at least catholicism, unless I'm totally wrong) has a very similar doctrine. Can't remember the name, but I do remember Emmanuel Kant went on a philosophical crybaby rampage over it.

I´m no fan of islam and find alot of it to be bonkers, i think all of the Abrahamic religions have been a curse to the human race. The quran has more war mentalty in it then the bible does(read both back to back) and i find that to be a huge danger

I know what you mean but at the same time I wouldn't worry since Muslims literally bend over backwards to point out the context and stress that violence is wrong, for all the "warlike" and "BY THE SWORD" bullshit people tack on to it.

And muslims take it to heart apparently, since they're more likely to be pacifists and say "violence is never justified" than people of any other abrahamic religion.

what i'm saying is that i think it's hella silly to worry about muslims in general being scary and violent.

Rottenfruit

27th July 2012, 10:33

Christianity (at least catholicism, unless I'm totally wrong) has a very similar doctrine. Can't remember the name, but I do remember Emmanuel Kant went on a philosophical crybaby rampage over it.

I know what you mean but at the same time I wouldn't worry since Muslims literally bend over backwards to point out the context and stress that violence is wrong, for all the "warlike" and "BY THE SWORD" bullshit people tack on to it.

And muslims take it to heart apparently, since they're more likely to be pacifists and say "violence is never justified" than people of any other abrahamic religion.

what i'm saying is that i think it's hella silly to worry about muslims in general being scary and violent.

About the birth rates , muslims doubling in numbers is just fucking stupid, muslims are now about 1,5 billion. Theres no way in hell that number can go to 3 billion in just 10 years.
A person who believes such a thing is most likly a "true beliver", theres nothing you can say to a true beliver of anything to change his/her mind.

Just imagine how likly you are to convince Fred Phelps and the westboro baptist church that god does not hate homosexuals by debating them

Devrim

27th July 2012, 10:36

Almost 15% of the population here is voting for the fascist party spreading this sick ideology.

Which country are we talking about?

4. Unlike Christians, Muslims will never truly adapt to society. They may pretend that they have adapted, but in reality they're deceiving you. Apparently they're allowed to do this to a great extent (taqiyya). This is their wild card against Muslims. It's impossible to disprove. They will not be able to say anything that can't be "countered" with the taqiyya claim. And even those people who are not Muslims and defend Muslims are not trustworthy, because these people are brainwashed by the Muslims and their taqiyya.

Taqiyaa is a doctrine that allows you to lie about you being a muslim to save your life ,family or your self from harm. For example if muslims were being killed by christians, a muslim would be allowed to lie and say hes a christian to save his life.

Islamic terroists groups and a few fringe extremist islamic sects use taqiyya(the ones who belive in worldwide calpihate) as a end to justify the means.

The concept of 'Taqiyaa' is a Sha doctrine which has no place in any of the Sunni schools legal systems.

This means that it is something that is believed in by less than 20% of the world's Muslims, and possibly as few as 10%.

It also means that it is extremely unlikely that anybody calling for a universal Caliphate would advocate it.

Devrim

Yu Ming Zai

27th July 2012, 10:43

what i'm saying is that i think it's hella silly to worry about muslims in general being scary and violent.

True, usually the ones that seem scary and violent are the extremists and the fundamentalists which is often depicted in the media because they stand out among the rest. Thus if they are the only groups to be focused in media without context or comparison with the rest of the population of Muslims then certain stereotypes will grow out of it and distort the image of the general population of Muslims. Usually that is where these kinds of fears are coming from. I dun exactly blame people who stick this kind of image over entire groups of people but then again, people are sometimes really dumb... sign of the times I guess.

As for the OP's debate with those fascists, whats the point really? If they are as hardcore as they seem to be, why not just let them rot in their own ignorance. No ones gonna really miss them anyway. Btw, Im curious at what country are you living in? 15% of people of where you are living at are voting for a fascist party? That really blows.

Rottenfruit

27th July 2012, 10:43

Comrade #138672

27th July 2012, 11:06

Which country are we talking about?

The concept of 'Taqiyaa' is a Sha doctrine which has no place in any of the Sunni schools legal systems.

This means that it is something that is believed in by less than 20% of the world's Muslims, and possibly as few as 10%.

It also means that it is extremely unlikely that anybody calling for a universal Caliphate would advocate it.

DevrimThe Netherlands. The party is called the PVV (Partij Voor de Vrijheid which translates to something like Freedom Party) led by Geert Wilders. Oh, he's also the only "official" member in his party. Yet 2 million people vote for him and his party.

Their main strategy is to break down the left-wing "elite" and prohibiting everything they despise, especially if you're a Muslim. They try to control the media (to destroy left-wing influences) with quite some success. They also want to limit the power of judges. In the meantime they're trying to take as much power as they can.

Wilders was charged for group discrimination. Zionists from America (for example David Horowitz) provided him the money to hire one of the best lawyers in our country to defend him. In the end the charges were dropped and Wilders got away with group discrimination by exploiting a loophole in the law. This victory made him and his party much stronger.

Gradually they've become accepted by society; partly because of the censorship. It's unbelievable how far they've come. They're a real threat to society.

Aussie Trotskyist

27th July 2012, 11:17

That's it for now. You don't have to look at every statement. I just need some more insights to learn to deal with these people; whether I like it or not. Almost 15% of the population here is voting for the fascist party spreading this sick ideology. They need to be stopped. Perhaps some of these people can be reasoned out of this fascist ideology.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?num=10&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1704&bih=908&tbm=isch&tbnid=nCMbYeXeDuVteM:&imgrefurl=http://zombiesurvivaltips.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_make_Molotov_cocktails&docid=0IEu-q-yWGQIrM&imgurl=http://images.wikia.com/zombiesurvivaltips/images/8/8f/Molotov-cocktail-design.jpg&w=280&h=195&ei=5GcSULHHDeiWiQfvmoDQAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=488&vpy=164&dur=1865&hovh=156&hovw=224&tx=158&ty=86&sig=103089097354375054684&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=118&tbnw=169&start=0&ndsp=44&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:76http://zombiesurvivaltips.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_make_Molotov_cocktailshttp://zombiesurvivaltips.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_make_Molotov_cocktails

Does that help?

Rafiq

27th July 2012, 14:43

We should oppose Xenophobia, but we must also oppose private Muslim communities (schools, etc.) Isolated from the rest of society. Women and children are heavily abused and have no where to run. The kids really just want to be like any other western kid, but allowing them to isolate will just assure the next generations of Muslisms will be Islamists.

Would we support Mormon communities with self determination? Fuck no. Muslim leaders can't pick and choose what kind of "rights" they want. If a bunch of old men want to circle jerk in a Sharia community, that's fine, but leave the fucking kids out of that.

Tim Cornelis

27th July 2012, 15:13

This person clearly has not studied Islam in great detail, but merely seems to repeat popular images about Islam. For example, she mentions Taqiyya as if all muslim practice it, while in reality Sunni Islam (the majority of muslims) do not believe in Taqiyya. They have merely occasionally used it, but I have no doubt that catholics lied about their faith as well. Certainly regarding something as basal as this, you would expect a person who has studied Islam for five years would know this.

Also expose the unfalsifiability of this claim.

1. In 10 years the total number of Muslims will have doubled. By increasing their numbers, they gain more political power and will eventually take over by using our democratic system against us. Then they will introduce Sharia law.

I assume she is talking about Western countries. This is demographic nonsense. Fertility rate of Western Muslim families has fallen significantly and are not much more higher than "Native Western" fertility rates. Dutch-Turkish fertility rate is actually lower than the Dutch fertility rate.

Look at these fertility rates:

http://www.prb.org/images08/fertdclnndrlnds.gif

It is sometimes claimed that in 15 years the Netherlands will be half muslim, but these claims are unsubstantiated. The CBS (Central Bureau for Statistics), which among other things does demographic studies and census calculations, has calculated that by 2050 the muslim population in the Netherlands will have grown by a mere 3%.

Also, Muslims in Europe are generally more secular than Christians in America as reflected by the fact that American Christians attend church more per week than Dutch muslims do per month.

2. It's wrong to criticize Islam critics (or Islam watchers as they like to call themselves), because then you would be helping the Muslims. Helping the Muslims means helping the terrorists.

False dichotomy.

3. You can't compare Islam critics with Nazis, not even a little. Nazis are "socialists" and these are the people who are letting the Muslims take over "our" country. Since Nazis are fascists and have conspired with Muslims; the Islam critics must be the anti-fascists; the heroes. "Socialists" are the real fascists.

Islam critics aren't Nazis. Period. But she is doing some semantic gymnastics for no actual argument. Essentially a guilt by association fallacy. Socialists—internationalists, advocates of class struggle—cannot be fascists—ultra-nationalists, advocates of class collaboration.

4. Unlike Christians, Muslims will never truly adapt to society. They may pretend that they have adapted, but in reality they're deceiving you. Apparently they're allowed to do this to a great extent (taqiyya). This is their wild card against Muslims. It's impossible to disprove. They will not be able to say anything that can't be "countered" with the taqiyya claim. And even those people who are not Muslims and defend Muslims are not trustworthy, because these people are brainwashed by the Muslims and their taqiyya.

This is unfalsifiable and unsubstantiated paranoia. Also see above.

The Netherlands. The party is called the PVV (Partij Voor de Vrijheid which translates to something like Freedom Party) led by Geert Wilders. Oh, he's also the only "official" member in his party. Yet 2 million people vote for him and his party.

Their main strategy is to break down the left-wing "elite" and prohibiting everything they despise, especially if you're a Muslim. They try to control the media (to destroy left-wing influences) with quite some success. They also want to limit the power of judges. In the meantime they're trying to take as much power as they can.

Wilders was charged for group discrimination. Zionists from America (for example David Horowitz) provided him the money to hire one of the best lawyers in our country to defend him. In the end the charges were dropped and Wilders got away with group discrimination by exploiting a loophole in the law. This victory made him and his party much stronger.

Gradually they've become accepted by society; partly because of the censorship. It's unbelievable how far they've come. They're a real threat to society.

The PVV is not fascist, they are national conservative.

Interestingly enough, his powerbase is located where there are the least migrant populations. They get infused with the idea of migrants overrunning the country and crime epidemics through the media, but where citizens of urban areas can see that this is exaggerate by own experience, those in the country-side cannot and hence, out of hear, vote PVV.

If the person you're talking to is also Dutch show her this video:

AvodC70GFS8

Prinskaj

28th July 2012, 09:27

1. In 10 years the total number of Muslims will have doubled. By increasing their numbers, they gain more political power and will eventually take over by using our democratic system against us. Then they will introduce Sharia law.
There is two elements which are wrong about this statement.
Firstly, most muslims in the western world are just as moderate as their christian, jewish, hindu or buddhist counterparts. So believing that they would want to establish some kind of Islamic Caliphate or the like, is xenophobia on an incredibly high level.
Secondly, this use of the word "Sharia Law" is very tiresome. Since it shows that the person using it in said way, has no understanding of the teachings of Islam. Because "Sharia Law" is simple arabic and means "Sacred Law", and this has almost as many different legal traditions as it's western counterpart. (Such as stances on the death penalty, free speech, etc.)

2. It's wrong to criticize Islam critics (or Islam watchers as they like to call themselves), because then you would be helping the Muslims. Helping the Muslims means helping the terrorists. To examine this, we must first establish a concrete example of what a terrorist is.
If we take Al-Qaida, and the act of 9/11, then we can conclude that this has little to do with Islam, since the Quran strictly prohibits suicide in ANY case, even in the case of Jihad (Which merely is the act of struggling).
If the Taliban is taken, then it becomes hard to quantify what constitutes as terrorism, since they are technically a government in exile, just as the french were under WW2. Which would force us to determine that France is a terrorist state.
With the two largest self-proclaimed Islamic "terrorist" groups not being clearly defined as "terrorist", then the argument that Islam inherently tends towards acts of terror seems very weak, at best.

Red Rabbit

28th July 2012, 10:03

1. In 10 years the total number of Muslims will have doubled. By increasing their numbers, they gain more political power and will eventually take over by using our democratic system against us. Then they will introduce Sharia law.

2. It's wrong to criticize Islam critics (or Islam watchers as they like to call themselves), because then you would be helping the Muslims. Helping the Muslims means helping the terrorists.

3. You can't compare Islam critics with Nazis, not even a little. Nazis are "socialists" and these are the people who are letting the Muslims take over "our" country. Since Nazis are fascists and have conspired with Muslims; the Islam critics must be the anti-fascists; the heroes. "Socialists" are the real fascists.

4. Unlike Christians, Muslims will never truly adapt to society. They may pretend that they have adapted, but in reality they're deceiving you. Apparently they're allowed to do this to a great extent (taqiyya). This is their wild card against Muslims. It's impossible to disprove. They will not be able to say anything that can't be "countered" with the taqiyya claim. And even those people who are not Muslims and defend Muslims are not trustworthy, because these people are brainwashed by the Muslims and their taqiyya.

1.The only way Islam could spread that rapidly in only 10 years is through mass conversion, which is incredibly unlikely. Even so, many Muslims ( I would dare say the majority) are against Sharia law.

Also, I'm not sure what country we're talking about here, but in the U.S at least most Muslims are SocDems/Liberals. Would a liberal really push for Sharia law?

2.Some of my best friends are muslims. Is it wrong to defend my best friend? Why shouldn't I help muslims? Because of some asinine idea that they're all terrorists?

While I don't have any statistics, I would bet that Christians have killed more people than any "muslim terrorist". Should I stop supporting Christians then too?

3.Socialism != fascism. Only Tea party fuckwads think that, and arguing with them is like arguing with a dead horse. It's really funny to watch them explode when you mention Islamic Socialism.

In any case, Zionism is closer to fascism than anything about Islam could ever dream of being. And guess what, tea partiers support Zionism with a fiery passion that puts even my love of vodka to shame.

4.This is just absurd. You support muslims so you must be brainwashed?

Muslims only use taqiyya if they believe they're in danger of being persecuted because of their religion. Christians used to have something similar as well, does this mean Christians could never adapt to society? The answer is a big resounding "you're fucking stupid if you think that".

In the case of "brainwashing"; I've seen many more Christians who could be considered brainwashed than any muslim I've met. There's even a video on the internet of a Christian brainwashing camp.

Red Commissar

28th July 2012, 11:37

i understand why you say all that(anti 'muslimophobia et al),but forgetting the west ,it sounds too much liberal talk.ie do you think no political islamists(muslim fundamentalists) talks of reestablishing some prehistoric caliphates,and saudi type sharia law-or better exists.no rise in wahabism/salafism(in muslim states)??

What do you mean by "liberal talk"? I don't quite understand what you are trying to get at here.

Rafiq

28th July 2012, 15:18

What do you mean by "liberal talk"? I don't quite understand what you are trying to get at here.

The point Freepalestine is trying to make, (A point he's struggling to express due to English most likely not being his first language) is that a rise in Islamism is indeed not simply a right wing myth, that, yes, Islamists do, all over the globe, who fantasize over the revival of the Islamic Calaphite. That's the ideological rhetoric behind Islamist movements. The blame for the rise in Islamism is a blame that the Western Left is responsible for. Let's be serious, minorities and immigrants were always met with harsh discrimination in Europe, this isn't only a modern phenomena. The difference this time, is that we have an incompetent Left, leaving an angered native proletarian population turning to crytpo Fascism, and a discriminated ethnic minority, turning to Islamism, both on behalf of the petite bourgeoisie. This was indeed the price the Western world payed for the destruction of the power of Labor back in the 1980's.

Freepalestine regarded what you spoke of as Liberal talk, because it ignored and denied the existence of something that is really a threat to working class power globally, for the sake of, I don't know, political correctness or something.

Prinskaj

28th July 2012, 16:39

i understand why you say all that(anti 'muslimophobia et al),but forgetting the west ,it sounds too much liberal talk.ie do you think no political islamists(muslim fundamentalists) talks of reestablishing some prehistoric caliphates,and saudi type sharia law-or better exists.no rise in wahabism/salafism(in muslim states)??
Ofcourse there is fundamentalist among muslims, but so is there among Jews and Christians. They should not be seen as a uniform entity, there are very few extremists, but they are primarily moderate in their belief, such as myself (Though I am properly more secular then most).

Spirit

28th July 2012, 17:30

1. In 10 years the total number of Muslims will have doubled. By increasing their numbers, they gain more political power and will eventually take over by using our democratic system against us. Then they will introduce Sharia law.

2. It's wrong to criticize Islam critics (or Islam watchers as they like to call themselves), because then you would be helping the Muslims. Helping the Muslims means helping the terrorists.

3. You can't compare Islam critics with Nazis, not even a little. Nazis are "socialists" and these are the people who are letting the Muslims take over "our" country. Since Nazis are fascists and have conspired with Muslims; the Islam critics must be the anti-fascists; the heroes. "Socialists" are the real fascists.

4. Unlike Christians, Muslims will never truly adapt to society. They may pretend that they have adapted, but in reality they're deceiving you. Apparently they're allowed to do this to a great extent (taqiyya). This is their wild card against Muslims. It's impossible to disprove. They will not be able to say anything that can't be "countered" with the taqiyya claim. And even those people who are not Muslims and defend Muslims are not trustworthy, because these people are brainwashed by the Muslims and their taqiyya.

That's it for now. You don't have to look at every statement. I just need some more insights to learn to deal with these people; whether I like it or not. Almost 15% of the population here is voting for the fascist party spreading this sick ideology. They need to be stopped. Perhaps some of these people can be reasoned out of this fascist ideology.

1. On which research is that based? The numbers, and the racist "they all think the same" logic?

2. I find racist arguments hard to counter because they just don't fall into a mindset based on logic and reason. And you can't have an argument with irrational people. There is a plethora of logical fallacies and uneducated slurs in just that two sentences. How are all Muslims terrorists? Are only people of Muslim origin or Islamic faith terrorists? How can such a complex thing be so black and white? Good grief, this woman is mindblowingly stupid, especially for someone who is supposed to have spent 5 years researching something.

3. WTF?

4. Damn. My family is of Islamic faith (though they are very liberal and their faith is basically just on paper), they lived in Croatia for 50 years and they are highly "adapted".

Comrade #138672

31st July 2012, 16:36

According to her there's only one Sharia law. The differences can be explained by "gradations" of Sharia. The most extreme and harmful form of Sharia would be "100%" Sharia. Milder forms of Sharia are not real Sharia. Maybe "40%" Sharia. All Muslims she knows totally agree with her, she claims. So it must be true.

When I say that most Muslims are not extremists, she seems to both agree and disagree. She says that Islam always tends towards extremism. It's written in the Qu'ran. Just read it and you'll know. It's no matter of interpretation except the "literal" one. She also says that most are indeed not extremists -- yet. They will be easily persuaded by the extremists to comply. They have no other choice. They must help their Muslim brothers.

It's only a matter of time until we're taken over by Muslims. They will take their time to dominate the world, but they will succeed -- unless we become "aware" and stop "giving away our country".

By the way her response on that video basically was that it's a lie -- something to brainwash us with.

Spirit

31st July 2012, 22:42

All religious fundamentalists tend to be aggressive, intollerant and with strong racist or degrading opinions about people different from them. It is a combination of your social enviroment and the religion you have been fed with. Of course that fundamentalist muslims are going to be radical. So are fundamentalist christians, but the Quran and the Bible are not to be blamed for that because you can interpret those books in many ways. And they are not the reason for intolerance, but merely the excuse for it.

Hit The North

31st July 2012, 23:13

By the way her response on that video basically was that it's a lie -- something to brainwash us with.

Why are you wasting your time arguing with this racist? She obviously has a trick for denying the validity of any evidence that contradicts her opinion.

"The only way of debating with a nazi is with a baseball bat." It wasn't Stalin or Trotsky or Durutti who said that, but Woody Allen. And he's a liberal.