Do you think most USA leftists prefer liberalism over marxism because of fear?

[passenger57]

This has been a thought that I have been having for some time. Do you think that many young people and young adults and people who are educated, well read and have some levels of literacy skills, internet and some general information about US wars, the destruction of the economy of Greece, Europe, USA, Middle East by bankers, wars and corruption. But somehow those worried americans who hate both Democrats and Republicans because they still have a normal life with jobs, families to feed, and are sort of too compromised with the capitalist corporation Mammon, too tied in chains with the capitalist free market monster

And because of the place where they work might be Wal Marts, banks, supermarkets, hamburger restaurants etc. and because they still have a family to feed and peer pressure from their social worlds. Which is an impediment that blocks them from coming out of their politicalal ideology closet and claim that capitalism is evil. And what we need is a pure marxist government.

Do you think that millions of americans who hate corporations, wars, bankers and both parties at the same time are too reluctant to join marxist political parties of America and instead either vote for Democrats or sort of stay out of politics altogether and only support people like Amy Goodman, Michael Moore, Naomi Klein, Michael Parenti, the college leftists of socialistworker.org thenation.com, commondreams.org etc.

Having said all this about the extreme shyness and fear of even millions of anti-war, Occupy protestors and grass roots activists. My main question is simply do you think that most leftists of USA prefer to be progressive liberals because they are scared to be raided by CIA and FBI if they become supporters of Marxism, Leninism, Maoism and real authentic communist parties and anarchist movements?

That's what I really think is the main reason of why millions of leftists prefer to be progressive liberals supporters of The Nation Magazine, Commondreams, alternet, truthdig, salon.com, politico, Dailykos, Thinkprogress.org, and The Democratic Party. Instead of all of them coming out of their closet and admitting that marxism is the only solution for America.
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[TheGodlessUtopian]

A "Leftist" is a revolutionary anti-capitalist by most definitions.You mean liberals?

[passenger57]

Well you know some people here said that The Tea Party are a threat to socialism in America. But I think that referring to some article that Chris Hedges wrote some months ago, the liberal progressive sectors of America are also a sort of impediment for the formation of a big socialist worker political front as a third party option.

He claimed that at the end of the day, right before presidential elections many progressive liberal intellectuals like Cornel West, Michael Moore and even Amy Goodman endorse who ever is the presidential candidate of The Democratic Party.

And I think that because of the extreme fearmongering against marxism and pure socialism that still exists in the general american society and people. Americans are still today in 2012, in the 21st Century too shy to be marxists, leninists and that's why the most radical many americans can be is progressive liberal centrists


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A "Leftist" is a revolutionary anti-capitalist by most definitions.You mean liberals?

[x-punk]

I think it is fear of change to their relatively comfortable lifestyles. Many of my friends can see the current problems but will refuse to do anything except grumble occasionally. They go to work which consumes the majority of their lives but this gives them the money to get a house, a car, a couple of holidays every year and support their family. They live in relative safety and comfort compared to many across the world and there is just no way they are going to rock that boat to push for a revolution which could have, for them, unpredictable consequences.

Add into this fear of being shunned by your friends (as most people loathe anything communist because of all the media propaganda against it) and also by co-workers and employees.

Of course, im speaking from a UK perspective but i dont think its much different to that in the US.

[passenger57]

You know I think most nations even poor nations have almost the same voting behaviour of most americans and have that comfort-zone mentality and are scared of a radical transformation of the political system just like you said. And I even thought you were talking about the general mentality of americans and not England. Because I think most americans have exactly that problem of fear of change and a relatively comfortable lifestyle compared with many other countries of the world.

So I think that what authentic marxists, who are advocating for dictatorships of the working class in most countries of the world as a solution for poverty and misery, have to do is, wait for the middle class to shrink and for the lower class and poverty levels to rise. Only a hyperinflation and increased stressed as a result of hunger and poverty in USA, UK, and most countries of the world is what really can lead to people begging for marxist socialist governments







I think it is fear of change to their relatively comfortable lifestyles. Many of my friends can see the current problems but will refuse to do anything except grumble occasionally. They go to work which consumes the majority of their lives but this gives them the money to get a house, a car, a couple of holidays every year and support their family. They live in relative safety and comfort compared to many across the world and there is just no way they are going to rock that boat to push for a revolution which could have, for them, unpredictable consequences.

Add into this fear of being shunned by your friends (as most people loathe anything communist because of all the media propaganda against it) and also by co-workers and employees.

Of course, im speaking from a UK perspective but i dont think its much different to that in the US.

[x-punk]

You know I think most nations even poor nations have almost the same voting behaviour of most americans and have that comfort-zone mentality and are scared of a radical transformation of the political system just like you said. And I even thought you were talking about the general mentality of americans and not England. Because I think most americans have exactly that problem of fear of change and a relatively comfortable lifestyle compared with many other countries of the world.


I think that is why libertarianism is popular because it doesn't represent such a radical upheaval. On its most basic level it represents a lessening of govt interference in peoples lives without a major change to the underlying capitalist system which everyone is comfortable and familiar with.

Most people will have some gripe with govt sticking its nose into their life. Whether its too high taxation, too many seemingly pointless regulations or more minor things like the smoking ban in pubs or speed cameras appearing everywhere. Thus, libertarianism is a pretty easy sell.

[The Idler]

Yeah, fear of gulags, red terror and cheka.

[passenger57]

Well, I think that the real fear that millions of americans leftists have of becoming full marxists instead of being progressive liberal centrists is not really fear of a USSR, North Korean or statist Cuban government. But the fear I meant that I think many people who hate wars, who hate Democrats, Republicans and corporations is really a fear of CIA, FBI, NSA and security fascist departments of the US government of harassing them. Because I think that the ruling oligarchic class of America can let progressive liberals rise to US government like Berny Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel. But it won't let 100% marxist politicians rise to government power. So I suspect that fear against a paraphernalia of shock and awe helicopters, police cars, fascist SWAT military cops militarily invading the home of any american citizen that is into marxist parties, marxist political activism etc.

You have to realize that millions of people in America still have a normal, they work in fascist corporations, their social security numbers, driving license numbers and traced and tracked by fascist corporations. So I just think that main reason of american progressive leftist people of not becoming marxists is that ingrained fear that americans leftists have, that justified fear caused by the murders of Fred Hampton, Martin Luther King, Malcom X and many other radical activists of the nation

Man, being a marxist in the USA is not a walk in the park

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Yeah, fear of gulags, red terror and cheka.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I think you give liberals too much credit, most still believe the cops are on their side. If they still believe that cops are on their side and the State is of the people(just one that has been corrupted by corporations) then they have no reason to fear it. They're delusional, not fearful. Now conservatives, those are the fearful ones...

[Ostrinski]

Is passenger57 Trotskistmarx?

[JPSartre12]

Maybe if the US didn't launch a generations-long smear campaign against all things left-of-centre people wouldn't be afraid to question things.

[Positivist]

I don't this k that most workers understand Marxism enough to endorse it, and this is the product of two things. Lack of ability to promote Marxism (mostly because not enough money) and misinformation about what socialism/communism actually is. Its really more ignorance than fear.

[eyeheartlenin]

Surely, people "who prefer liberalism over Marxism" are not leftists. If the original post is referring to the US left's constant capitulation to the Democratic Party, as shown in 2008 and, undoubtedly, will be shown again this year, indeed, every four years, in the presidential elections, that just proves that the US "left" consists merely of liberals.

You are who you vote for, and your real politics are displayed in two places: in coalitions, where people's political convictions are whatever they fight for, and, during the bourgeois elections, where the true opportunists always find a way to indicate their support for the Democrats, as in the ISO's declaration that Obama's election in 2008 was "transformative."

For the record, the main transformation I have noticed is that the most recent US poverty rates are worse than under G.W. Brush; there is also informed speculation in the ruling-class press that the US poverty rate for 2011, to be released next month, will be the worst in over four decades. Some transformation!

[Jimmie Higgins]

My main question is simply do you think that most leftists of USA prefer to be progressive liberals because they are scared to be raided by CIA and FBI if they become supporters of Marxism, Leninism, Maoism and real authentic communist parties and anarchist movements?

It's fear of failure or the idea that nothing can be done more than fear of repression directly IMO - though fear of repression feeds into the sense that no alternative is possible. If it was only fear of repression then we'd just see a lot of armchair revolutionaries.

As Marx said, the ruling ideas of a time are the ideas of the ruling class. So part of the way rulers rule is by making their view of the world into the "common sense" or universal view of the world. So we all grow up just accepting nation-states and bullshit ideas about national cultural differences; or the non-existance of class or systemic racism; and so on. And we are convinced that these things are "natural" or inevitable, so therefore change is not possible or desirable.

Individuals pick and choose which of these to believe or not believe, but all these ideas are repeated so often in so many places and are the basis of whole institutions that they are just the "default ideas" of society. Add on top of that is the direct propaganda and politically-motivated lies and misinformation and you get a whole lot of bad information floating around in society.

In non-revolutionary times, most people are not going to have revolutionary ideas-- if they did then we'd probably be in revolutionary times, eh. But what's the material situation most of us find ourselves in today - a full generation of declines or lack in struggle and class consciousness in society. In the US, 40 years since the black power movement, 30 years since the end of the last wave of radicalism and 30 years of a fairly unopposed ruling class assault through direct repression (the war on drugs and mass incarceration) legal maneuvers, and propaganda.

Since these ideas are so pervasive that "good ideas" can make a small dent, but really it takes people's own experiences to counter-act some of these common ideas about the world. Struggle can do this on a large scale as history shows - it exposes some of the myths of society for people involved and also gives people confidence, such as the liberal civil rights movement leading to a working class and more radical black power movement. And when people begin to have these handed-down ideas challenged, then that creates a space where specifically revolutionary ideas can become relevant to people.

[Agent]

I think Marxists do not have good enough leadership to promote the ideology to the masses. And I would also say that there is no way of teaching Maoism to Americans. Nor Stalinism. Nor Marxist-Leninism. The Red Terror and other atrocities rightfully have tainted them.

Marx, Kautsky and others like them are the way to go.

[passenger57]

Who is really trotskistmarx? I am new here, this is really my first time in this forum



Is passenger57 Trotskistmarx?

[passenger57]

Knowing reality, I mean going to the real-reality of things is very hard. Most of us are not Carl Jung, Einstein, Kant, Marx, Hegel so all we can do is come up with our perspectives of the real reasons of why the authentic left is so weak. I mean the authentic left of USA which are leftist parties that advocate for governments of the workers, and a socialist system. And not the progressive liberal intellectuals and progressive websites and movements. That are in favor of a universal welfare state, with a Robin Hood tax system but with a capitalism system. With corporations paying higher taxes to the government, free health care, free university degrees. But large corporations like Exxon, American Airlines and Wal Mart still owned by private families.

There are many many many reasons of why the oppressed majority of americans, i mean about 75% of the US population still votes for The Democratic Party. I think that like I said in my other comments and referring to something the leftist progressive thinker Chris Hedges said. That the progressive liberals are in part to blame for the destruction of the authentic socialist parties. They are sort of alcapones thieves, that steal votes and support out of the authentic leftist parties and direct all those votes and support toward The Democratic Party.

Other reasons are that there is still not an objective revolutionary situation, and that the media of the USA still has a strong manipulative power over the political tastes of the majority of americans




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I think Marxists do not have good enough leadership to promote the ideology to the masses. And I would also say that there is no way of teaching Maoism to Americans. Nor Stalinism. Nor Marxist-Leninism. The Red Terror and other atrocities rightfully have tainted them.

Marx, Kautsky and others like them are the way to go.

[passenger57]

Wow your education and analysis of the american society is impecable. What you said is what i really think of the liberals and even of many middle class leftists of America. Like you said, because they are statists, and police departments are part of the government, they believe that national police departments of the nation are on their side.






I think you give liberals too much credit, most still believe the cops are on their side. If they still believe that cops are on their side and the State is of the people(just one that has been corrupted by corporations) then they have no reason to fear it. They're delusional, not fearful. Now conservatives, those are the fearful ones...

[Le Socialiste]

There are many many many reasons of why the oppressed majority of americans, i mean about 75% of the US population still votes for The Democratic Party. I think that like I said in my other comments and referring to something the leftist progressive thinker Chris Hedges said. That the progressive liberals are in part to blame for the destruction of the authentic socialist parties. They are sort of alcapones thieves, that steal votes and support out of the authentic leftist parties and direct all those votes and support toward The Democratic Party.

The percentage of eligible voters (well over half the population) participating in U.S. electoral cycles has yet to even breach 64%. The highest turnouts were in 1960, 1964, and 1968 (63.1, 61.9, and 60.8%, respectively), with voter participation leveling off somewhere between 36-56% since then. How you managed to get 75% of the population (all voting for the Democrats no less!) is a mystery. I think the steady decline in voter turnout reflects on the general sense of apathy and alienation experienced by broad swathes of the American population - a byproduct of its disenfranchisement.