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Book O'Dead
25th July 2012, 15:38
Before I launch into my rant i want to make the following disclaimer: In no way should my words here be construed as an attack or malicious criticism of any ethnic group. If anyone here is offended by what I write I sincerely apologize in advance and will retract the offensive words.

I want to tell you about an experience I has some years ago, in fact this happened some 2 years before the terrorist attack on 11 September 2001. maybe 1998 or 1999.

Around this time I worked at a steel fabrication plant making large structures to support highway traffic signs, you know, those tubular contraptions that often span freeways from side to side and carry signs that say "Bumfuck next two exits, etc."?

The capitalist owner was a Jew. A pretty nice guy as capitalists go and, AFAICT, not a racist in any way. He came to work every day and would often deal with the sub-contractors and buyers personally. He would often come on the factory floor wearing his white hard hat and quietly observe the progress of projects he had an interest in. On the many occasions that I had to dealt with him directly he was congenial and modest, in appearance and demeanor.

Anyway, this company had a young woman in its employ working at the front office. At times she acted as Marty's personal secretary, at others she would sit in on meetings between management and contractors, presumably as Marty's surrogate.

She was efficient, self-motivated and highly intelligent. She was exotically attractive because she was from Surinam of Pakistani descent. She'd been raised as a Muslim. She was what some call a "West Indian Indian", that is, an Asiatic Indian from the West Indies. I liked her. She was always very kind to me.

Not long before I left this job, there came to work with us another interesting person. He was a structural engineer born and raised in Egypt. I took an immediate liking to him and he seemed to like me. One day he invited me and my then wife to join him and his spouse to go to the end of Ramadan celebrations at his church. Curious and flattered, I accepted without hesitation.

I didn't really know anything about Muslims and their customs. The religious service and the feast that followed it were revelations to me. There were Muslims there from all over the world; Hispanic, African, European, Asian and Middle Eastern people. My wife and I were surprised and delighted by the diversity of peoples there. The food was great and we were both treated with extraordinary hospitality and friendliness. In fact, toward the end of the activity the church's Imam took me aside, personally thanked me for coming and gave me as a present a beautiful leather-bound English-language Koran which i still have. The women there engaged my wife in pleasant conversation and I almost had to pull her by the arm to get her into our car.

At the job things got a little strange shortly after this young man came to work with us. Omar (not his real name) began to fight with Marty over every decision that was taken involving him and the projects he managed. Moreover, I soon detected a hostility erupt between Akleema (not her real name) and Omar. At our weekly meetings they would not acknowledge the other and rarely addressed each other directly.

I didn't understand what was happening and the office gossip was no help. I didn't feel like I had a right to ask anyone about it and feared that by doing so I could potentially involve myself in something unpleasant. But I was consumed with curiosity.

One day, while Omar and I were driving back from a field project I casually mentioned Akleema in connection with another pending project. Omar, from the passenger side turned to me and said, "Akleema is a whore!"

I was flabbergasted. I was flummoxed. My mouth went dry and i suddenly had that strange feeling you get when everything seems like it's all a dream but you know you're awake and that this unpleasant moment is happening in reality.

I manage to croak "What?" And Omar continued with a tirade agaisnt "women who have lost their sense of identity and have betrayed their faith"! He went on to say that any Muslim woman who would side with a Jew against an Arab deserved whatever bad things happened to them.

To say that I was speechless is an understatement. My tongue had been ripped out and my heart began to race. I almost became dizzy at the ferocity with which Omar had attacked a woman, in my presence, of whom I had only good things to say. In fact, I remained quiet even as he calmed down and probably began to regret his own frightening outburst.

Except for the woman who was my wife then, I have never mentioned this disturbing incident. To anyone.

Not so very long after this I left the company and Omar and Akleema continued, I presume, to fight their secret personal Jihads. Omar was assigned to projects that kept him away from the factory until one day he turned in his notice, Akleema continued to help Marty manage the company even after Marty retired. She's probably still there.

So this is my story.

Rafiq
26th July 2012, 01:43
Islamist conservativism is among the most disgusting variant of such.

Book O'Dead
26th July 2012, 02:07
Islamist conservativism is among the most disgusting variant of such.

Yeah, second only to Christian conservatism; from Torquemada to Pat Robertson.

ComradeChe
26th July 2012, 03:29
It is sad how sometimes even intelligent people cannot get themselves away from all these inherited hatred towards others, I see this a lot in my daily dealings, and it's not only Islamist conservatives as people think.

My left and progressive friends here, assume that since I am a Palestinian (Born Muslim) I should by default have general hatred towards any Jewish person on earth, it is surprising that explaining the fact that my struggle is against Israeli policies, Christian Zionist groups who support these policies unconditionally, not with the Jewish people around the globe, lots of them don't understand that!!

Hatred towards the other is so easy, and believe me if you ask Omar to explain his reaction and why does he consider that girl is a traitor and deserves such words, he won't have any realistic answer other than old anti-Jewish sentiment he thinks he believes.

And this also goes the other way around, hatred towards Muslims based on stereotypes and branding them all as potential threat is pretty much the same!!!

So I understand how you felt when you heard his words! But I honestly have no idea how to deal with it other than just trying to explain your point (in your case I guess its a bit late), or dunno!!!

Aussie Trotskyist
26th July 2012, 11:26
Islamic Convservativism. Christian Conservativism. Zionism.

All of the above are examples of what is wrong with religion. I may find myself on unpopular grounds here by saying I have no problem with religion (and even believe it could be accepted, with some work, in a socialist/communist society).

However, when someone starts to take religion into politics, or indeed just 'too far' personally, we start to notice the issues with it.

I do not support Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. I support the Working Class. I support humanity.

¿Que?
26th July 2012, 11:54
Let me just flip the script a bit, and talk about a time when I said some horribly racist thing to this Arab guy, just came right out of my mouth and by the time I realized what I said it was too late and I looked dumb as fuck?

I think he was from Yemen or Qatar, or somewhere on the Arab peninsula. I remember he mentioned something about how most people don't know where that is, and I sort of did, so initially I think he was happy to talk to me. But then I said something to the effect of because of all the terrorism I am now more familiar with that region.

I mean, it was sort of true, since after 9/11 I started to pay more attention to the middle east, but still came out really awkward and he got offended.

Now I make it a point to choose my words carefully, and not try to rationalize why people should not take offense to something I'm saying, regardless of how "objectively" true it might be, especially if I am not in that group. Of course, I'm purposely generalizing here, as there are times when people take things way too seriously, but like I said before, racism thrives in equivocal speech.

The most important weapon in the arsenal of bigots is plausible deniability. They can claim they were not being insensitive because either that was not their intent, they didn't know the particular expression was charged, and/or they were merely stating an objective fact.

This, to me, makes it even more offensive, and will cherish the day, if I should live to see it, when they are but a mere memory in our glorious future society!

EDIT: Oh, and one last thing. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the bigot's favorite preface, I'm not racist but (http://www.notracistbut.com/)...

Plus a whole host of other myriad techniques to justify their hatred and bigotry as objectivity, or even worse, flowery or expressive language. I'm talking of course about the false analogy. Like when rich kids are all like, I totally know what's it's like to be a worker...my dad made me work in his legal firm one summer...gosh now I'm totz in solidarity cuz I've been there :cursing:

It's clearly a way bigots use to trivialize the experiences of others by drawing false analogies to experiences they've had. It's totally offensive and sickening. No sympathy, pure enemies. Period.

EDIT2: Sorry for keeping with the edits. I understand a lot of what I'm saying is not directly related to the OP or his question, or comment, but I keep thinking of more things to include.

The last thing I'd like to say is that it is not productive at all to be calling people bigots, even though they are. As bigots change their tactics, once overt, now more subtle, we musty too. Rather than laboriously trying to prove someone is a bigot, based on what they say and do, I simply use some sure fire techniques to help the bigots see the light, or barring that, make them feel totally unwelcome.

One thing I do is appropriate their own underhanded tactics. So basically, this amounts to describing the way bigots behave, in a way that highlights the things the bigot has said. If they decide to call you out on it, guess what, plausible deniability. Just deny that you were ever implying anything about them, and simply say you were stating objective characteristics about a particular subset of the population.

It's always good to throw some moral highgroundism for good measure, because inevitably this strategy will just lead to a he said, she said, type situation since you will both be engaged in a futile attempt to try to prove the other's intent, and generally the person with the most social influence will win. Moral highgroundism helps you because it asserts your good intentions. It's a good strategy for bigots too.

EDIT3: By the way, if anyone is ever swayed by the cagier bigot's public declaration of regret, after the fact of using bigoted language, just remember Daniel Tosh's so called apology after the rape comments. Don't fool yourselves!

ComradeChe
26th July 2012, 20:03
One day he invited me and my then wife to join him and his spouse to go to the end of Ramadan celebrations at his church.

In fact, toward the end of the activity the church's Imam took me aside,
(emphasis added)

Just a side note, Muslims have mosques not churches, unless this event happened in one of those communities where there are no mosques around and the church allows local Muslims to use the church as a worship venue.

Book O'Dead
26th July 2012, 20:13
(emphasis added)

Just a side note, Muslims have mosques not churches, unless this event happened in one of those communities where there are no mosques around and the church allows local Muslims to use the church as a worship venue.

I wrote the OP extemporaneously, as it were. I couldn't think of the right word for the temple in which Muslims conduct their services so I used the word "church" generically to signify mosque.

Rottenfruit
27th July 2012, 10:48
Yeah, second only to Christian conservatism; from Torquemada to Pat Robertson.

How is Islamic conservatism better christian conservatism ?

Rafiq
27th July 2012, 23:39
How is Islamic conservatism better christian conservatism ?


It really isn't, but Christian conservatives, a lot of the time come from advanced Western countries. With all of the Bourgeois revolutions of the 18th, and 19th century, they should know better.

homegrown terror
28th July 2012, 03:16
How is Islamic conservatism better christian conservatism ?

it's not worse by quality, but (ostensibly) by quantity. most of us in europe and the americas have a lot more negative experience with christian conservatives than muslim conservatives.

Book O'Dead
28th July 2012, 03:25
it's not worse by quality, but (ostensibly) by quantity. most of us in europe and the americas have a lot more negative experience with christian conservatives than muslim conservatives.

Aside from the proven cases of terrorism by Alqaeda or affiliates here in the U.S., I have never felt that Islamic fundamentalism is as big a threat to our few liberties as is Christian fundamentalism.

homegrown terror
28th July 2012, 23:12
Aside from the proven cases of terrorism by Alqaeda or affiliates here in the U.S., I have never felt that Islamic fundamentalism is as big a threat to our few liberties as is Christian fundamentalism.

nor have i. at least in my own backyard, i've always thought christian extremists were a much bigger threat than any other religion's shitty end.