Do you believe in ghosts?

[Leftsolidarity]

Please explain why/why not.

[Book O'Dead]

Sheesh! What a question!

Everyone knows that there ain't no such thing as ghosts.

I believe in the tooth fairy, though. Several times in my childhood I was encouraged to put a milk tooth under my pillow and the next morning I would find the tooth gone and money in its place.

If that's not evidence of the existence of the tooth fairy, I don't know what is!

[individualist]

I dot believe that is really neccesary, off course i dont believe in ghosts.

[Leftsolidarity]

Sheesh! What a question!

Everyone knows that there ain't no such thing as ghosts.

I believe in the tooth fairy, though. Several times in my childhood I was encouraged to put a milk tooth under my pillow and the next morning I would find the tooth gone and money in its place.

If that's not evidence of the existence of the tooth fairy, I don't know what is!

While I personally do not believe in ghosts, I know many (what I would consider intelligent) people who do. They have their reasonings and their stories.

I know a decent amount of atheists who believe in ghosts too. I was in a long discussion about this last night with some who believed and some who didn't. It was quite interesting actually (unless it's filled with condesending snarky comments) and would love to see a good discussion on it here.

[Book O'Dead]

While I personally do not believe in ghosts, I know many (what I would consider intelligent) people who do. They have their reasonings and their stories.

I know a decent amount of atheists who believe in ghosts too. I was in a long discussion about this last night with some who believed and some who didn't. It was quite interesting actually (unless it's filled with condesending snarky comments) and would love to see a good discussion on it here.

IOW's atheism is no safeguard against superstition, is that what your telling us?

[Ostrinski]

No because they are not real and this belongs in chit chat

[Comrade Samuel]

Personally no, the sudden fascination with ghosts and the paranormal that has become normal in America in recent years seems to only be fueled by all of these really lame ghost hunting TV shows, the legitimacy of which doesn't even deserve to be debated. There are plenty of individual cases of corse, Ive even met people who claim to of had paranormal exspirences but without presenting any proof it ends up being more like a religious conversation: I can't completely prove or disprove that ghosts exist (and interestingly enough these people ARE usually religious)

[cynicles]

Those aweful people who wear sheets over their heads and terrorize ethnic minorities? Of course I believe in them I just wish they didn't exist.

[Quail]

There is no evidence for them. I believe in whatever the current evidence suggests is true, and ghosts don't fall into that category.

[Kenco Smooth]

Personally no, the sudden fascination with ghosts and the paranormal that has become normal in America in recent years seems to only be fueled by all of these really lame ghost hunting TV shows, the legitimacy of which doesn't even deserve to be debated.

Recent fascination? It's centuries old if not older in slightly different forms.

[Comrade Samuel]

Recent fascination? It's centuries old if not older in slightly different forms.

I just thought that since we have entered the informational age in which all sorts of facts and information can be exchanged at the press of a button we would have discredited centuries of superstition with our collective knowledge but the people who run our TV channels needed ratings so they did what any capitalist would do and they preyed on our fear and irrationality so we now end up with a generation that believes in ghost stories purely because of poor acting, night vision cameras and fans blowing paper off tables.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

For Fuck's sake! I'm a Marxist. I don't believe in immaterial made up bullshit. God, ghouls, vampires, witches, wizards, Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny -- all fantasy. Not that it can't make for good literature or other entertainments.

[Book O'Dead]

For Fuck's sake! I'm a Marxist. I don't believe in immaterial made up bullshit. God, ghouls, vampires, witches, wizards, Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny -- all fantasy. Not that it can't make for good literature or other entertainments.

Ha-ha! Finally, I got you where I want you!

If there's no tooth fairy, how do you explain the magical switcheroo that took place under my pillow?

If you can't explain it then it is most likely true.

[eric922]

I do. I have my reasons.

[The Jay]

I've hallucinated ghosts, but those times were from imagination and sometimes morphine. Since I stopped believing in them I haven't thought I've seen one at all.

PS: Morphine sucks. It gives me freaking horrifying hallucinations.

[Book O'Dead]

I've hallucinated ghosts, but those times were from imagination and sometimes morphine. Since I stopped believing in them I haven't thought I've seen one at all.

PS: Morphine sucks. It gives me freaking horrifying hallucinations.

I was in the hospital once for kidney stones and they gave me morphine to kill the pain. It was the worst experience I ever had!

I would lie there like a zombie and every word that came out of my mouth was a profanity. I remember my then wife holding my hand and trying to shush me but I kept saying all kinds of nasty things. Thankfully, my drugged out curses were never aimed at her because I loved her.

Wow, I had almost forgotten that episode!

[Lynx]

Is the invisible hand a ghost? If yes, then lots of people believe in ghosts.

[Book O'Dead]

Is the invisible hand a ghost? If yes, then lots of people believe in ghosts.

Ha-ha! You got it there!

How about this one:

"A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. "--K.Marx

[The Jay]

Ha-ha! You got it there!

How about this one:

"A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. "--K.Marx


Is Communism the Holy Spirit?

JP all you Christians, I'm not trying to troll ya.

[Book O'Dead]

Is Communism the Holy Spirit?

JP all you Christians, I'm not trying to troll ya.

I actually believe that that opening statement is an intentional joke on the part of Marx & Engels.

I believe that Marx wrote that to mock the bourgeoisie for their fear of something which, in Marx's day could only be very, very far away.

[Leftsolidarity]

I do. I have my reasons.

Could you share those reasons?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Humor me on this...

I once thought of this: what if ghosts did exist? Would that mean that there existed some sort of afterlife, some kind of god or divine being? I thought it over for a minute and came to the conclusion that no, that is not a guarantee because there was always the possibility of these ghosts being an unexplained scientific phenomia associated with a part of the human body/condition which has yet to be fully understood.Sort of like a part of the body that can manifest; created from matter which is unobservable to us currently. Something along those lines.

[Ocean Seal]

Yes, I believe that there is a specter which is haunting Europe.

[Commiekirby]

I believe ghosts and supernatural forces exist in our world, they can vary wildly as the energies I believe are manifested in many many ways through different beings that may or may not believe in them.

Whether things like this are linked with some "higher power" is completely unknown, even the concept of residual hauntings are just energies built up over time but then again maybe all of it's just the human mind but I won't say they don't exist because modern science has barely investigated many things deemed supernatural.

[Zostrianos]

Yes. I didn't always believe in them, but then I looked more closely into a few cases that so far have not been explained, I'm convinced that there is more out there than we might think.
Yes, most of the encounters, photos and other evidence, etc. are either hoaxes (sometimes perpetrated by fake "ghost hunters" themselves), misidentifications of mundane phenomena, hallucinations, optical illusions, double exposure, etc. But there is a very small portion of remarkable cases that defy explanation. After looking at a few of those, I became more open to the possibility. There are a few interesting photos (taken before Photoshop came on the scene and invalidated photo evidence) that, as far as I know, have not been explained away yet (I check skeptical websites often to verify if something's been properly investigated or not). Of course, it doesn't mean they're ghosts, but so far no other explanations have been put forth.

The Bachelor's Grove cemetery photo. There was no one there when the picture was taken (so the photographer claims), but when it got developed, this is what resulted:
http://graveyards.com/IL/Cook/bachelors/ghost3813x.jpg

The famous Freddy Jackson photo (1919), where a deceased air mechanic (died 2 days before this photo was taken) shows up in the picture:
http://0.tqn.com/d/paranormal/1/0/n/I/freddy_jackson_lg.jpg

The Joshua Ward house photo. A real estate agent took a photo of an employee in this house (a man). When the photo got developed, there was someone very different in the photo:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_h1VRlxw_5K8/TFrpJ2OfxhI/AAAAAAAAAC8/pmLOwFeqPwU/s400/wickedwitchghost.jpg

The Pink Lady ghost encounter is another interesting one that remains unsolved:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVhmXAtVyj4

[eric922]

Could you share those reasons?
Well, I can't prove anything of course. But I have been to various places reputed to be haunted and me and my friends have seen things. One story I can think of actually didn't happen to me, but to a friend. We were walking in a section of woods that were supposed to be haunted and we were leaving. Anyway, my friend claims that as we were leaving she saw someone walking next to her. She thought it was me and she called my name and then realized I wasn't next to her. Another one of our group saw it too. They said there was 6th person in our group. I was looking ahead and they didn't mention it till we were out of the woods. That's one story. I've seen things, myself though.

Now, let me be clear. I am perfectly open to the possibility that the fact that we were in places we knew to be supposedly haunted could have caused our minds to play tricks on us. Perhaps I just have an over active imagination and jumped at shadows. I will say I think a lot of these ghost hunter shows on TV are mostly made up. Can I prove any of this, no. I just have seen several things that make me question my views on what is real or not.

I'm the the same way with gods. There is far too much evidence against the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, but I won't deny the possibility of a Deistic God. Though, if it is a Deistic God, faith in it would be pointless.

[The Jay]

Not that I don't like the thread but I don't think that this belongs in the philosophy forum.

[eric922]

Not that I don't like the thread but I don't think that this belongs in the philosophy forum.
It is a hard one to classify really. Should it go in religions? Possibly even the Science forum since there are some studies on these things, though I don't know how well regarded they are? Perhaps Non-Political would be best. It seems a bit too serious for Chit-Chat.

[Zostrianos]

Well, I can't prove anything of course. But I have been to various places reputed to be haunted and me and my friends have seen things. One story I can think of actually didn't happen to me, but to a friend. We were walking in a section of woods that were supposed to be haunted and we were leaving. Anyway, my friend claims that as we were leaving she saw someone walking next to her. She thought it was me and she called my name and then realized I wasn't next to her. Another one of our group saw it too. They said there was 6th person in our group. I was looking ahead and they didn't mention it till we were out of the woods. That's one story. I've seen things, myself though.

There's evidence that many similar encounters can be caused by electromagnetic fields in the environment (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet)

[The Jay]

I think that either religion or non-political would be best too.

[Book O'Dead]

Not that I don't like the thread but I don't think that this belongs in the philosophy forum.

It belongs in the "superstition" forum.

Excepting for my belief in the tooth fairy; that's been proven to be true!

[eyeheartlenin]

When I was in the Grantist WIL, one of our comrades, a very bright undergraduate, a gifted young woman, whom I had some good talks with, told me that she had twice seen a Native American man, not from this century, in the laundry room of their building. He was apparently a specter, that appeared and then vanished. I get chills just typing about that. My friend was an atheist, BTW.

On the first anniversary of my mom's death, I went to shul and joined in reading the memorial prayer at the end of the service, and I had the most distinct feeling she was sitting next to me.

A few times in my life, I have been walking behind someone, walking past a wall, and I looked away, and when I looked back, the person previously in front of me was nowhere to be seen. This happened once many years ago, and it also happened recently.

My conclusion is that the possibilities of experience are too broad to be covered by a simple "no" in the poll, and it is not a stretch to say there are things we do not understand (not exactly news, I know).

Edit – I almost forgot the thing that most gives me goosebumps when I think about it. My aunt's final words were apparently "Oh, Anna, it's beautiful," addressing my mother, who had died some months before. Now my relatives are very pious, but not dishonest, so I can believe my aunt said something like that, and that opens up a lot of possibilities, that transcend atheism, I think. Of course, people are free to disagree.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Anyone who does should be killed for stupidity.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Anyone who does should be killed for stupidity.

I voted no, but I disagree. I know a guy that is going to college completely free, getting a degree in physics, etc. (basically is extremely smart) and he believes he has had a paranormal experience.

Again, I think ghosts do not exist and I think he most certainly did not have a paranormal experience, but he is not stupid.

[eric922]

Anyone who does should be killed for stupidity.
I'm not sure which is worse about this reply. The call for mass murder of people who don't share your views or the fact that you don't seem to understand that intelligence does not mean holding to a strictly atheistic or materialistic worldview. And yes, I know you were more than likely joking about the killing thing, but still joking about killing people is just wrong, in my opinion. There is enough death in this world without wishing for more.

[Zostrianos]

I'm not sure which is worse about this reply. The call for mass murder of people who don't share your views or the fact that you don't seem to understand that intelligence does not mean holding to a strictly atheistic or materialistic worldview. And yes, I know you were more than likely joking about the killing thing, but still joking about killing people is just wrong, in my opinion. There is enough death in this world without wishing for more.

I think he's just a troll

[Lynx]

I think he's just a trollAnd now he's a ghost.

[Leftsolidarity]

I'll share some stories from people I'm friends with that I consider to be fairly intelligent people and almost all of them atheists.

1 friend says that there is an old man ghost thing in her house. She used to sit in her closet all the time because it was a comforting space for her and one time when she walked out and looked to the left (where her door was open) she saw an old man with a red flanel shirt with overalls with 1 side un-done. When she told her mom that she saw him her mom said that she has seen him before too. My friend asked her what he was wearing and she gave the same exact description that she had seen.

My ex believes her step-dad's house has a ghost in it because of many many many incidents that she has told me about but the one that sticks out in my memory is the story of when it was just her step-dad, his wife, and their baby in the house. The baby started to cry and they heard it on the baby monitor and then the baby stopped crying and they heard a woman singing a lullaby. When they checked the room there was no one else there and the baby was back asleep.

I tend not to care for stories about places that are supposedly "haunted" but this one is pretty recent and interesting. A good buddy of mine (he's a pagan, the only non-atheist friend I've talked about so far) visited a "haunted" field outside of this old children's home/hospital/mental ward. It was from a long time ago and it was back around TB outbreaks. The had such terrible conditions and so many deaths that they basically just dug mass graves and threw the dead people in the field out back. There's a lot of stories from friend's visiting that place but 1 time when he visited he said he felt a strong urge to go over to 1 area of the field and when he walked over there he said he felt like he got punched in the gut and doubled over and started puking. He's a tough guy too so that kind of surprises me.



Not saying that none of these stories couldn't have explanations or that I believe any of this was supernatural. These are things, though, that make me open to the possibility while currently saying I don't believe.

[cynicles]

My main problem with the 'proof' is that all these 'ghosts' seem to come from a specific time period, namely anytime after 1500 BCE. Why aren't we seeing the ghosts of ancient Greeks? What about ancient Egyptians or even just those from earlier medieval periods? Do ghosts only live for 500 years and then die? I don't remember anyone saying they helped ancient ghosts move on into the 'afterlife'.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I believe in dead labor, does that count?

Have we exhausted the ghost-metaphors of Marxism yet?


I was in the hospital once for kidney stones and they gave me morphine to kill the pain. It was the worst experience I ever had!

I would lie there like a zombie and every word that came out of my mouth was a profanity. I remember my then wife holding my hand and trying to shush me but I kept saying all kinds of nasty things. Thankfully, my drugged out curses were never aimed at her because I loved her.

Wow, I had almost forgotten that episode!

My wife was on it for the same operation and she loved it and had blissful hallucinations. Being in the room with her was the most boring experience of my life and like trying to get an interview with Sid Vicious.

"Oh, huh... Oh, you're here to visit.... huh? Oh... Hey, you came to visit..."

Nods off and 15 minutes later...

"Huh... Oh, you're here..." zzzz

[Hexen]

Ghosts & Spirits exists outside the materialist paradigm since their two separate things. If there's any supernatural beings still among us their most likely left overs from a bygone age during a time when people knew they were real unlike today.

The reason there is no "proof" for the supernatural or ghosts is because they're incompatible with materialism which doesn't support them and they exist in a another paradigm/worldview.

If there's any supernaturals around today they are reality deviants that need to be eradicated to preserve the materialist paradigm. (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Technocratic_Union)

[Book O'Dead]

I believe in dead labor, does that count?

Have we exhausted the ghost-metaphors of Marxism yet?



My wife was on it for the same operation and she loved it and had blissful hallucinations. Being in the room with her was the most boring experience of my life and like trying to get an interview with Sid Vicious.

"Oh, huh... Oh, you're here to visit.... huh? Oh... Hey, you came to visit..."

Nods off and 15 minutes later...

"Huh... Oh, you're here..." zzzz

Is she okay now?

[Bronco]

I don't believe in them but a lot of the stories, photos etc. are quite interesting

[Yuppie Grinder]

I wish ghosts were real so bad. Ghosts are rad.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Is she okay now?Oh yeah, this was a little while ago.

[Sea]

You say that ghosts exist outside of the so-called material realm. You exist inside of it. Inside this real world our interactions are governed by physical science. Inside the realm you are currently in out actions are governed by material science. Cameras and the photographs they produce are governed by material science, how can they reach outside these bounds? This is the first thing I would like to see some evidence of.

Secondly, if ghosts were real, I imagine that a much larger number of ghost claims would appear as unexplainable by the physical, mechanical and electrical laws that govern earth and space.

Thirdly, a great number of ghost claims do ultimately contain other claims that are difficult to substantiate and if false, the whole argument comes crashing down. Take for instance the Bachelor's Grove photo. This relies on the claim that nobody was in the photo. Also, do you notice the blurriness of the figure's surroundings? If the figure was blurry but the photograph otherwise of exceptional quality, there would be more to explain on my part, but the entire photo is blurry. Now take the famous Freddy Jackson photo. I can find no evidence of a deceased air mechanic, or much of anything for that matter. I can only find hearsay claims on ghost sites. Besides, only in the larger-sized insert is there a faded face behind the man in question! Did you not even notice that? Now for the Joshua Ward photo. Once again, the entire picture is blurry (notice the doorhandle) and it relies on hearsay claims. I'm not even going to bother with the pink lady video right now, but at first glance it looks like a dramatized piece intended for entertainment and not science. I'm mostly going off the Bravo network logo on this one so feel free to correct me.

Do you not have any repeatable evidence of ghosts that do not rely on the fanciful filling in of missing information?

[citizen of industry]

I like the stories of Gettysburg's ghosts. Because it was the largest battle in American history, presumably ghosts wander around the battlefield at night. And yet, I live in a city which was firebombed and a hundred thousand people died right under my feet, possible on the ground I'm standing on now, yet, no ghost sightings. Gettysburg pales in comparison. Also, someone mentioned most ghost sightings are of 19th century ghosts. That's very American, a young history. Why would I expect to see 19th century ghosts here and not 12th century, or 5th century? Where are they hiding out?

[Manic Impressive]

A belief in an afterlife is idealist claptrap which gives workers false hope of a better future. This includes ghosts :rolleyes:

[Zostrianos]

Take for instance the Bachelor's Grove photo. This relies on the claim that nobody was in the photo. Also, do you notice the blurriness of the figure's surroundings? If the figure was blurry but the photograph otherwise of exceptional quality, there would be more to explain on my part, but the entire photo is blurry. Now take the famous Freddy Jackson photo. I can find no evidence of a deceased air mechanic, or much of anything for that matter. I can only find hearsay claims on ghost sites. Besides, only in the larger-sized insert is there a faded face behind the man in question! Did you not even notice that? Now for the Joshua Ward photo. Once again, the entire picture is blurry (notice the doorhandle) and it relies on hearsay claims. I'm not even going to bother with the pink lady video right now, but at first glance it looks like a dramatized piece intended for entertainment and not science. I'm mostly going off the Bravo network logo on this one so feel free to correct me.Do you not have any repeatable evidence of ghosts that do not rely on the fanciful filling in of missing information?

Your arguments are all valid, but it becomes a bit trickier when you consider that some ghost evidence comes from surveillance videos that seemingly were not tampered with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WXUgcF1wVE

[Hexen]

A belief in an afterlife is idealist claptrap which gives workers false hope of a better future. This includes ghosts :rolleyes:

Belief in the afterlife existed long before capitalism, feudalism, slave based societies, etc. It's those afterlife beliefs got exploited by whatever societies purpose is.

[cynicles]

A belief in an afterlife is idealist claptrap which gives workers false hope of a better future. This includes ghosts :rolleyes:

Bourgeios malarkey is what it is!

[Igor]

I like the stories of Gettysburg's ghosts. Because it was the largest battle in American history, presumably ghosts wander around the battlefield at night. And yet, I live in a city which was firebombed and a hundred thousand people died right under my feet, possible on the ground I'm standing on now, yet, no ghost sightings. Gettysburg pales in comparison. Also, someone mentioned most ghost sightings are of 19th century ghosts. That's very American, a young history. Why would I expect to see 19th century ghosts here and not 12th century, or 5th century? Where are they hiding out?

my city was pretty much the biggest battlefield in the (finnish) civil war and my old school was a military hospital in the middle of the action. if battlefields attracted ghosts, my city is the place to be at, unless you need to be from 19th century america for that to happen. :(

[Hit The North]

Whether ghosts exist or not is a religious question. Another reason why this thread should be moved.

[Ele'ill]

Why don't we see ghosts of dinosaurs?

[Per Levy]

Why don't we see ghosts of dinosaurs?

because ghosts dont exist forever and the ghosts of dinosaurs are allready extinct.

@op: no i dont belive in ghosts.

[MuscularTophFan]

Show me some proof of a ghost and than I will review it and see if I will change my mind. Until than I believe that when we die we cease to exist and we riot in the ground.

[maskerade]

I don't believe in ghosts, but paranormal stuff is interesting. It's like the tagline for the X-Files: I want to believe.

When I was a kid I was home alone once, and as i walked into my room my cat darted out, and a few minutes later my closet started shaking violently. i didn't have the balls to open it, so I grabbed my hockey stick and ran outside. While I was outside the landlord accused me of breaking street lights with my hockey stick and told me that if I didn't cut it out we'd be thrown out. When i went back inside there was nothing, and i decided I didn't believe in ghosts because landlords were much more terrifying.

[Ocean Seal]

And now he's a ghost.
Did this forum just have a Horatio Caine moment?


Show me some proof of a ghost and than I will review it and see if I will change my mind. Until than I believe that when we die we cease to exist and we riot in the ground.
The one thing that the bourgeoisie didn't count on.

[Comrade #138672]

I do believe in "ghosts" to some extent. To me, and I know it's impossible to know without proof, it's more likely than not. Partly, but not entirely, because I like to hold views that oppose and challenge mainstream views. I also tend to think in possibilities rather than deciding on a specific belief for most of the time. It's not scientifically impossible for "ghosts" to exist. It could be perfectly explainable by new natural laws (like dark matter, extra dimensions, etc).

And it also depends on what you mean by "ghosts". I tend to think of "ghosts" in a more abstract sense to mean "immaterial" beings that sometimes have a weak interaction with the "material" world. Generalizing "ghosts" like this doesn't make it a useless concept, because it still separates it from a hallucination.

[Sea]

Your arguments are all valid, but it becomes a bit trickier when you consider that some ghost evidence comes from surveillance videos that seemingly were not tampered with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WXUgcF1wVE
To be honest that looks like a regular person to me, and it's not any more of a stretch to say that than to say that it's a ghost.

Also.. they called in a paranormal expert? Isn't that just a fancy way to say someone who rejects mainstream science? :laugh:

[Zostrianos]

This is pretty interesting too. During the filming of the upcoming movie Return to Babylon, they captured some strange footage:
http://roberthood.net/blog/index.php/2008/10/21/real-ghosts-in-babylon/
It’s quite a coup when you get the original actors, all dead, to cameo in your movie about the silent era of Hollywood — without splicing in old footage or engaging in CGI re-constructions.
Director Alex Monty Canawati’s silent, black-and-white biopic, Return to Babylon, is said to have been infiltrated by phantom figures — ghosts, they reckon, of the dead stars that are the subject of the film, which is about assorted scandals in Hollywood at the beginning of the 20th Century.
Much of Return to Babylon — “part mystery, part comedy and part psychological drama” — was filmed on location in the estates of the deceased stars, and lead Jennifer Tilly and other members of the crew began to feel that they were not alone on the sets.
It was only in post-production that Canawati noticed that the film was haunted by odd visual glitches; “several of the stars were ‘replaced’ by images of haunting ghostly apparitions”. Or at least ghostly faces were superimposed over their faces:

http://www.roberthood.net/obsesses/images/babylonghost101908b.jpg
The film’s release has been long delayed, and according to IMDB, the reason for the delay was the discovery of the “odd figures, morphing of characters and ghost-like images, etc. in some scenes. These were especially clear in still framing. These were found to be in the original negatives and not in the special effects. The film makers decided the images do not take away from the integrity of the film, thus the release date.” The film is being release this Halloween at the Salem Cinema in Salem, Massachusetts.
As Ken Hulsey, reporting on Monster Island News, puts it: “It seems that many deceased silent movie stars jumped at the chance to once again grace the silver screen!”
Spooky, eh? Whether it’s an unexplained phenomenon or a bit of canny (or uncanny) PR, I like the idea!
See the original story on Monster Island News (http://robojapan.blogspot.com/2008/10/ghostly-images-appear-in-jennifer-tilly.html).

More stills from the movie:
http://www.myspace.com/returntobabylonfanpage/photos/3220990

[hatzel]

I believe in ghosts precisely because it is impossible to believe in them, and I will continue to believe in them until it becomes impossible not to, at which point I'll reassess my options...

[Yefim Zverev]

I wish I could... such kind of things make life more interesting

[helot]

I'd consider the belief in ghosts depressing. Atleast with your heaven/hell afterlife or reincarnation etc there's a chance that those you love will have a far better time when dead but ghosts? Damn, who'd want to believe their loved ones will be stuck roaming the earth all alone?


Anyway, no i don't believe in ghosts. I'm of the impression that there is no soul and consciousness is a manifestation of a physical system. Supposed sightings would have a far more natural explanation than wisps of the dead.

[Book O'Dead]

I wonder why most pictures of alleged ghosts show them all dressed up. If I were a ghost the last thing I'd worry about was to be seen naked.

[helot]

I wonder why most pictures of alleged ghosts show them all dressed up. If I were a ghost the last thing I'd worry about was to be seen naked.


You don't get a choice, i'm afraid. When you die what you're wearing also dies and becomes a ghost that's attached to your ghost.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

This is pretty interesting too. During the filming of the upcoming movie Return to Babylon, they captured some strange footage:
http://roberthood.net/blog/index.php/2008/10/21/real-ghosts-in-babylon/
It’s quite a coup when you get the original actors, all dead, to cameo in your movie about the silent era of Hollywood — without splicing in old footage or engaging in CGI re-constructions.
Director Alex Monty Canawati’s silent, black-and-white biopic, Return to Babylon, is said to have been infiltrated by phantom figures — ghosts, they reckon, of the dead stars that are the subject of the film, which is about assorted scandals in Hollywood at the beginning of the 20th Century.
Much of Return to Babylon — “part mystery, part comedy and part psychological drama” — was filmed on location in the estates of the deceased stars, and lead Jennifer Tilly and other members of the crew began to feel that they were not alone on the sets.
It was only in post-production that Canawati noticed that the film was haunted by odd visual glitches; “several of the stars were ‘replaced’ by images of haunting ghostly apparitions”. Or at least ghostly faces were superimposed over their faces:

http://www.roberthood.net/obsesses/images/babylonghost101908b.jpg
The film’s release has been long delayed, and according to IMDB, the reason for the delay was the discovery of the “odd figures, morphing of characters and ghost-like images, etc. in some scenes. These were especially clear in still framing. These were found to be in the original negatives and not in the special effects. The film makers decided the images do not take away from the integrity of the film, thus the release date.” The film is being release this Halloween at the Salem Cinema in Salem, Massachusetts.
As Ken Hulsey, reporting on Monster Island News, puts it: “It seems that many deceased silent movie stars jumped at the chance to once again grace the silver screen!”
Spooky, eh? Whether it’s an unexplained phenomenon or a bit of canny (or uncanny) PR, I like the idea!
See the original story on Monster Island News (http://robojapan.blogspot.com/2008/10/ghostly-images-appear-in-jennifer-tilly.html).

More stills from the movie:
http://www.myspace.com/returntobabylonfanpage/photos/3220990

Well, you gotta be careful with the whole "movie set haunted by a ghost" stuff because most of the time it is a publicity attempt to get more people to see the movie.

[Tim Cornelis]

I wonder why most pictures of alleged ghosts show them all dressed up. If I were a ghost the last thing I'd worry about was to be seen naked.

Indeed, if some humans become ghosts when they die and they are dressed it means that clothes turn into ghosts too.

Ghost clothes, ghost chairs. I mean there is so much wrong with the belief in ghosts.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Used to live in a pretty big house 10 or so years ago, my family go on about seeing all kinds of strange crap going on while we lived there, seeing things, people, my mum claimed of seeing ghosts on several occasions... she even got the Priest around to exorcise the place of 'evil spirits'. It's weird, because I remember seeing or witnessing absolutely fucking nothing out of the ordinary while I lived there. So no, having lived in a so called 'haunted house' with no poltergeists throwing chairs at me, I can safely say I don't believe in ghosts.

[Book O'Dead]

Indeed, if some humans become ghosts when they die and they are dressed it means that clothes turn into ghosts too.

Ghost clothes, ghost chairs. I mean there is so much wrong with the belief in ghosts.

Like in that episode in Python's "The Meaning of Life" titled "Death". When the dead people leave the dinner party they get into their ghost cars and drive away.

[Sea]

Well, you gotta be careful with the whole "movie set haunted by a ghost" stuff because most of the time it is a publicity attempt to get more people to see the movie.
Especially for a movie released on halloween!

[Leftsolidarity]

Yeah, I'd say pictures and videos of supposed ghosts are always very shakey evidence that doesn't really prove anything. The majority of that stuff has been shown to be fake and it's just really a matter of time until the rest are.

I'd really like someone who is defending the belief in or possibility of ghosts to explain their theory as to how they could exist. Stuff like dimensions, energy, souls, etc. I don't believe in ghosts so I can't play devil's advocate without just pulling shit out of my ass and trying to make it sound cool.

So if anyone could provide something like that, I think that would make this discussion much more in-depth and interesting.

[hatzel]

I'd really like someone who is defending the belief in or possibility of ghosts to explain their theory as to how they could exist. Stuff like dimensions, energy, souls, etc. I don't believe in ghosts so I can't play devil's advocate without just pulling shit out of my ass and trying to make it sound cool.

So if anyone could provide something like that, I think that would make this discussion much more in-depth and interesting.

Kinda seems a bit...I dunno, I'm shying away from saying 'unfair,' but at the same time I'm drifting in that general direction...to expect a rational explanation to what would (quite possibly) be symptomatic of a conscious rejection of the rationalist paradigm itself. Seems we're trying to play on a field biased from the outset, as rationally explaining/justifying irrationalism cannot help but destroy its very foundations...

[Leftsolidarity]

Kinda seems a bit...I dunno, I'm shying away from saying 'unfair,' but at the same time I'm drifting in that general direction...to expect a rational explanation to what would (quite possibly) be symptomatic of a conscious rejection of the rationalist paradigm itself. Seems we're trying to play on a field biased from the outset, as rationally explaining/justifying irrationalism cannot help but destroy its very foundations...

If there is belief there should be explanation. A picture is not an explanation, even more so when they are almost all shown to be false. I would like someone to explain how they feel it is possible for ghosts to exist. Since they are the ones saying something is there, they must be the ones to provide the reasoning.

[Zostrianos]

I once saw an interview with physicist Michio Kaku where he said that if there were indeed mysterious beings, ghosts, etc. they could hypothetically be explained by some kind of interdimensional overlap. That's also how I think ghosts could be explained.

"in a four-dimensional world, we are the Flatlanders, oblivious of the fact that higher planes of existence might hover right above ours. We believe that our world consists of all we can see, unaware that there may be entire universes right above our noses. Although another universe might be hovering just inches above us, floating in the fourth dimension, it would appear to be invisible. Because a hyperbeing would possess superhuman powers usually ascribed to a ghost or spirit, in another science fiction story, H.G. Wells pondered the question of whether supernatural beings might inhabit higher dimensions. He raised a key question that is today the subject of great speculation and research: could there be new laws of physics in these higher dimensions. In his 1895 novel 'The Wonderful Visit', a vicar's gun accidentally hits an angel, who happens to be passing through our dimension...The vicar questions the wounded angel. He is shocked to find that our laws of nature no longer apply in the angel's world. In his universe, for example, there are no planes, but rather cylinders, so space itself is curved." (Parallel Worlds, 184)

[eyeheartlenin]

The Joshua Ward house photo. A real estate agent took a photo of an employee in this house (a man). When the photo got developed, there was someone very different in the photo:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_h1VRlxw_5K8/TFrpJ2OfxhI/AAAAAAAAAC8/pmLOwFeqPwU/s400/wickedwitchghost.jpg

* * *

I am typing this late at night, so, the first thing I wanted to say was, I am grateful that I have never seen a ghost, since I think that would be very frightening for me.

The Joshua Ward house photo is obviously a photo of a slightly ghostly-appearing Diana Ross (may her tribe increase!), right down to the smile and the hair. I would be surprised if no one else saw that.

[Rudi]

I do. I have my reasons.

Schizophrenia?

[Kotze]

For the heck of it, let's try believing for a minute that ghosts exist and that a ghost is something that leaves the body, then the question comes to mind: Do people change their weight when they die? (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp)

[cantwealljustgetalong]

how can a Marxist possibly fucking believe in ghosts?
are any of you aware that it is perfectly normal for human beings to hallucinate at some point in their lives?
what the hell happened to materialism, folks?

[zoot_allures]

No, because I've never encountered any evidence for their existence that I find convincing.

In general, I don't believe in any paranormal/supernatural phenomena. I'm open-minded about it, and I think the case for some of it is stronger than what some of my fellow "materialists/physicalists" like to believe, but nothing has swayed me yet.

[Fnord]

I do, it seems all too obvious to me, but you know what they say, "question everything, answer nothing." I guess that would apply even more so depending on the environment unfortunately. The revleft counter-culture and such, probably best not to say anything and just take the punches as they come. :unsure:

[Goblin]

No, lol

[skitty]

I'll believe in ghosts when I meet one. Is anyone else not comfortable with the term "supernatural"? Thinking that something is not subject to or is above and beyond the laws of nature makes me uneasy.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Is anyone else not comfortable with the term "supernatural"?

Being a skeptic would be too easy if it was called 'Superbullshit'. Although I do prefer the term myself.

[Leo]

Shouldn't this thread be in chit-chat or something?

[Brutus]

If I were to meet a ghost, I would believe in them, a fool would carry on stubbornly denying their existence. For the moment, I remain skeptical, and every encounter can be explained

[Leftsolidarity]

Shouldn't this thread be in chit-chat or something?

Maybe. It had the potential for some more interesting discussion when it was first made so I put it in here cuz it's a more serious forum for "topics such as existence, the human condition, or philosophy itself." I thought that fit. If you want to move it, though, I don't care either way.

[Ele'ill]

Shouldn't this thread be in chit-chat or something?


can you not move the thread as a global mod

[Comrade #138672]

What would be their relation to the means of production?

[Red Banana]

What would be their relation to the means of production?

Ghosts are utilized as a form of slave labor, duh.

[skitty]

Being a skeptic would be too easy if it was called 'Superbullshit'. Although I do prefer the term myself.
I'd like to think that "natural" pretty much covers everything. And, on an unrelated topic, if you are several pages-deep in a thread and still wondering if it belongs elsewhere, my advice is 'ride that sucker out':cool:!

[Leo]

can you not move the thread as a global mod I can and have, I just prefer to do these things following at least a minimal amount of discussion.

[smellincoffee]

I believe no one ever went broke gambling on human credulity. We're easy to freak out.

Er, as the young'uns say.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've met people who'll swear blind that they've seen a ghost or felt a presence, but I've seen far too many illusions and am far too aware of just how creaky, self-deceiving and unreliable the human senses can be to accept the existence of ghosts on personal testimony alone.

Could we please have something more substantial "I done saw it I knows I did"?

I mean seriously, if hard evidence for ghosts could be found then we'd have some considerably more interesting applications for it than a bunch of reassuring "I'm in a happy place now" pap allegedly from someone's dead granny.

It really irritates me how some people give ghost-belief an easy ride. If I started claiming to have visions of all the cheese and yoghurts (just as alive as I am now) I've eaten in the past, seeing them on the shelf despite having scoffed them years ago, people would think I'd lost the plot, not that I had some special insight into the spiritual.

It's all so infuriatingly anthropocentric. Too many people are inculcated with this notion that the universe has to acknowledge human beings, when there's absolutely no reason why it should do so.


I once saw an interview with physicist Michio Kaku where he said that if there were indeed mysterious beings, ghosts, etc. they could hypothetically be explained by some kind of interdimensional overlap. That's also how I think ghosts could be explained.

"in a four-dimensional world, we are the Flatlanders, oblivious of the fact that higher planes of existence might hover right above ours. We believe that our world consists of all we can see, unaware that there may be entire universes right above our noses. Although another universe might be hovering just inches above us, floating in the fourth dimension, it would appear to be invisible. Because a hyperbeing would possess superhuman powers usually ascribed to a ghost or spirit, in another science fiction story, H.G. Wells pondered the question of whether supernatural beings might inhabit higher dimensions. He raised a key question that is today the subject of great speculation and research: could there be new laws of physics in these higher dimensions. In his 1895 novel 'The Wonderful Visit', a vicar's gun accidentally hits an angel, who happens to be passing through our dimension...The vicar questions the wounded angel. He is shocked to find that our laws of nature no longer apply in the angel's world. In his universe, for example, there are no planes, but rather cylinders, so space itself is curved." (Parallel Worlds, 184)

Except that if extradimensional beings did exist, they would look nothing like ghosts.