syria rebel links with right wing cuba exiles

[REDSOX]

More evidence as to why leftists should not be supporting the syrian so called rebels www.revolutionarycommunist.org/index.php/cuba/2534-syria-rebels-meet-cuban-dissidents-in-miami (http://www.revolutionarycommunist.org/index.php/cuba/2534-syria-rebels-meet-cuban-dissidents-in-miami) and http://globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=31165

[Os Cangaceiros]

pet peeve time:

"so called rebels"

:rolleyes:

[REDSOX]

These "Rebels" are terrorists and criminals and other forms of banditry armed trained financed by the saudi/qataris and western imperialist powers. The syrian emigres also have linked with the right wing cuban opposition as i have outlined. How can any leftist support these people is beyond me

[Sasha]

A self proclaimed "guevarist" says;
These "Rebels" are terrorists and criminals and other forms of banditry armed trained financed by the *insert external enemy*, the ** emigres also have linked with the ** opposition as i have outlined. How can any ** support these people is beyond me

Sweet irony, Fill in the blanks a bit differently and it could have come straight out of batista's mouth...
Maybe if the Castros would start standing with actual leftists instead of cuddeling up with the most horrible right-wing dictatorship out of misguided "anti-imperialism" the worker opposition against said dictatorships would look to the left instead..

[¿Que?]

It's silly to conclude that opposing Assad means supporting the insurgency. Their brutality and corruption is well documented, as is the mainstream media's attempt to white wash these things, and paint them as some sort of liberation movement.

While I certainly would not feel comfortable making such a forceful attack against them as the OP does, for fear of lending support (ideological or material) to Assad, I am certainly glad someone's doing it.

These things need to be said.

[REDSOX]

A self proclaimed "guevarist" says;

Sweet irony, Fill in the blanks a bit differently and it could have come straight out of batista's mouth...
Maybe if the Castros would start standing with actual leftists instead of cuddeling up with the most horrible right-wing dictatorship out of misguided "anti-imperialism" the worker opposition against said dictatorships would look to the left instead..

As a Guevaraist i can say without embarrasment that to CONDITIONALLY support the syrian government against this conspiracy is not to give a blank cheque to assad and his government. We are perfectly aware of the nature of Basser Assad regime thank you, but as anti imperialists it is the duty of all leftists to oppose this imperialist attempt to undermine syria. It should also be clear that many people in syria support assad and oppose these so called rebels who are my opinion are more like the contras of nicaragua than the sandanistas or the fidelistas. By the way there is hardly a day that goes by without these "rebels" calling for imperialist intervention from the west. How can anyone from the left support them.

Can i recommend that comrades read up charlie skelton's article on this resistance as well as the links in the original post i made, that should give comrades an idea about these groups

No to imperialism
no to wahabbism

[Sasha]

why then not stand critically with the local co-ordination commitees, opposed to assad, opposed to external interferance, opposed to sectarianism..

[REDSOX]

These co-ordination commitees from what i know of them are too small and too isolated to make any impact at all. The real opposition is the Free syrian army and the Syrian liberation army who have been responsible for appaling atrocities. The co-ordination commitees should denounce imperialism denounce saudi and qatari interference and break their links with the armed terrorist groups and by doing this they may gain more support from the undecided masses(neither assad nor terrorists) to construct a movement that is anti imperialist and anti assad. If there was a genuine mass movement of peasents and workers and others which had a clear anti imperialist stance i would back them but that is not what we have. The choice is assad and the segment of the populace who support him and the pro imperialist armed groups backed armed trained financed by the CIA and other western intelligence services as well as the wahibbist regime in saudi. Finally what about the links with the golden toothed emigres of cuba!!

[islandmilitia]

As a Guevaraist i can say without embarrasment that to CONDITIONALLY support the syrian government against this conspiracy

Really, what serious evidence to you have that this is a conspiracy? The Skelton article that you point to is important for a discussion of the nature of the SNC but it is highly problematic to extend the positions of the SNC to the whole of the revolt, because from its beginnings the revolt has been a highly divided and complex process, and the SNC, being based overseas, hardly has the ability of determine each and every event on the ground, even if it sought to do so. Not only is it the case that there are broad differences between the three main segments of the revolt (the SNC, the FSA, and the LCCs) these segments are themselves internal divided - so amongst the LCCs, for example, there is a division between those which, on the one hand, have recognized or are affiliated to the SNC, and those which, on the other, have refused to side with the SNC and are opposed both foreign intervention and the transformation of the revolt into a civil war. The divisions within the FSA are probably more pronounced insofar as the FSA is a term which is used to cover all sorts of local groups and militia bodies which have very different ideological positions and are by no means under the control of the formal leadership in Turkey. This does not mean that the role of foreign powers is not important (and I would include Russia within that category) and nor does it exclude the revolt being entirely co-opted and placed under foreign control, but the key point is that it remains an open process.

If you think about what it means to brand these events as a conspiracy, what you are basically doing is rejecting all the internal differences and nuances, and you are saying that a prolonged political process lasting for more than a year and taking place across an entire country was organized secretly in advance with a pre-determined set of aims - because that is the basic definition of what a conspiracy is. That, to me, is not satisfactory in analytical terms simply because it cannot explain the events that have taken place, and it does not take account of the changes within Syrian society which formed the basis for much of the revolt - such as the regime's embrace of neoliberalism over the past decade.

It is worth pointing out also that people such as yourself who have defended the regime have proven themselves very willing to adopt the exact same scare tactics of the imperialist powers, through your hyping of an alleged "Islamist" threat. This is itself indicative of how willing the Assad regime has been to adopt those same imperialist discourses and to align itself with the "War on Terror" since 2001. Again, do you think, from an an analytical point of view, the notion of an Islamist terror is meaningful? Does it account for the role of the LCCs, which have their roots in urban communities, and have issued statements opposing sectarianism, including the regime's own attempts to make use of sectarian divides?


These co-ordination commitees from what i know of them are too small and too isolated to make any impact at all

The exact opposite is true, it is the SNC which is small and lacks the power to control the direction of the revolt, the LCCs are the bodies which have the strongest roots in urban communities and are largely comprised of activists who have been operating in the country against the regime for long periods of time. The LCCs are the basic cells of the revolt.


The co-ordination commitees should denounce imperialism denounce saudi and qatari interference

They did, from the beginning (http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/2539/syrian-local-coordinating-committees-on-taking-up-).

[Sasha]

These co-ordination commitees from what i know of them are too small and too isolated to make any impact at all. The real opposition is the Free syrian army and the Syrian liberation army who have been responsible for appaling atrocities. The co-ordination commitees should denounce imperialism denounce saudi and qatari interference and break their links with the armed terrorist groups and by doing this they may gain more support from the undecided masses(neither assad nor terrorists) to construct a movement that is anti imperialist and anti assad. If there was a genuine mass movement of peasents and workers and others which had a clear anti imperialist stance i would back them but that is not what we have. The choice is assad and the segment of the populace who support him and the pro imperialist armed groups backed armed trained financed by the CIA and other western intelligence services as well as the wahibbist regime in saudi. Finally what about the links with the golden toothed emigres of cuba!!

maybe time to educate yourself a bit;

http://www.marxist.com/in-defence-of-the-syrian-revolution-the-marxist-perspective.htm
http://www.marxist.com/in-defence-of-the-syrian-revolution-the-marxist-perspective-2.htm

even i as a anarcho-autonomist strongly recomend above articles ^

[Sasha]

if syria's own imperialist masters (iran and russia) wouldn't have propped up the regime with money, weapons and protection and those evil "imperialists" you accuse of meddeling (US-EU-Israel) wouldnt have decided they actually prefered assad to remain in power for most of the time this uprising has been going on assad and his regime would have fallen more than a year ago in a mostly non-violent popular uprising.
its ALL the geo-political players and their alliances based on anything but principles who are at fault for the violence and the escalation of sectarianism. when the only people willing to come to your defence when your kids and parrents are getting slaughtered are the islamists there is good reason why they eventually get influence....
didnt we see this exact shit before in lebanon, chechnya and palestine?

[REDSOX]

I disagree with you totally

The Syrian rebels are a tool of the western imperialist powers to undermine syria's independence and to prepare it for colonialisation. A victory for these people (who i remind you have committed atrocities similar or worse than what assad forces have done such as the Houla massacre) would not only make syria a vassal state for imperialism but would isolate other anti imperialist forces in the region such as Hezbollah and the palestinians. Surely that is not in our interests. I would rather CONDITIONALLY back Assad and his regime than support imperialism because impirialism crimes are far worse than the crimes of assad. If imperialism invade hell i would give the devil a good reference.

Oh and the death and destruction there in syria is not russia's fault it is western imperialism's fault planned in washington and riyadh

By the way for the third time of asking what about the oppositionists links with right wing cuban emigres!!!!!!

[Sasha]

Assad IS an imperialist tool, Its obvious how self-hate/orientalism hinders an actual anti-imperialist analysis but you "anti-imps" really should drop the same old new-speak already and either oppose all imperialism & capital or honestly stand for your "i support whatever block of bourgeois capitalists nominally positions itself against the west" because you lot really have to stop calling it anti-imperialism for fucks sake, its not, its not leftist and its not marxist, its, again, orientalist self-hate inspired fetishation of a struggle abroad against what you rightly identify as YOUR primary enemy so that you can substitute meaningful engagement with capital at home with "supportive" posturing of a struggle of local and non-western imperialist capital against your version of capital.

I might take your "anti-imperialism" more seriously if instead of critically supporting mass murdering dictators on a internet forum you lot chose to attempt to actively sabotage the military (industrial) complex (despite their many theoretical flaws I have much respect for for example the "direct action", "rara" and "revolutionary cells" militants) but this is just pathetic posturing.

[Liberty]

The Cuban exiles are the only true government of Cuba, as they promote Democracy.

[Sasha]

The Cuban exiles are the only true government of Cuba, as they promote Democracy.


lol, no, also not... cuban international politics are absolute shite but interially they are as best as you can expect of the leftwing of capital, now thats a regime that when under imperialist (not proletarian popular) attack might be worth of our critical support, but that really doenst fly for assad
who also contrary to what his anti-imp cheerleaders like us to believe isnt under imperialist thread, he is under thread of a internal genuine yet liberal-capitalist orientated popular uprising, the various imperialist players in the region are just trying to buy themselves into the game to try and make of with the spoils when the dust setles. our primary support should be with the workingclass, if ever any part of capital is worthy of our critical support (this might be the place where actual leftists can start to disagree with each other, left-communists and most anarchists would take one position, trots and some autonomists another) it would be for the most leftwing side of capital, anyone who argues thats Assad in his struggle with the LCC is delusional and again replaces leftism with orientalist posturing that will only benefit the most rightwing parts of capital.

[A Marxist Historian]

A self proclaimed "guevarist" says;

Sweet irony, Fill in the blanks a bit differently and it could have come straight out of batista's mouth...
Maybe if the Castros would start standing with actual leftists instead of cuddeling up with the most horrible right-wing dictatorship out of misguided "anti-imperialism" the worker opposition against said dictatorships would look to the left instead..

Batista was a puppet of US imperialism. The rebels may not quite have acquired similar puppet status yet, but they seem to be heading that way rapidly.

Psycho should drop his misguided pro-imperialism, no quote marks necessary.

Castro is an opportunist, but at least he doesn't usually sign up for waterboy service for what Guevara called "the belly of the beast." Unlike Psycho it seems.

And then there's "Iranian imperialism." Yeah, the mullahs in Iran have turned Assad into a puppet for their vast empire, and are investing in Syrian industry right and left to extract surplus value from the workers the huge Iranian-dominated transnational corporations that stand like a colossus over the Third World is draining dry like vampires. Suuuure...

Russia would like to be an imperial power, but I don't think there's a hell of a lot of Russian investment in Syria either, Russian imperialism at this point is pretty much confined to chunks of the former Soviet Union, and far from all of them at that. Syria is just a very useful ally for Putin, not some servant state ground under the neo-Tsarist boot.

-M.H.-

[Sasha]

Seriously did no'one ever told you its 2012, capital has evolved, leftists better evolve as well (and luckily any relevant strain did), you better join a historic re-enactment society (or maybe you already did) because if you had any hope that your outdated jargon, organisation and analysis had any current relevance you are delusional, but by all means keep role-playing, just don't complain if you turn out missing the revolution..

[Threetune]

Seriously did no'one ever told you its 2012, capital has evolved, leftists better evolve as well (and luckily any relevant strain did), you better join a historic re-enactment society (or maybe you already did) because if you had any hope that your outdated jargon, organisation and analysis had any current relevance you are delusional, but by all means keep role-playing, just don't complain if you turn out missing the revolution..

Now this is rich coming from someone who just keeps ducking the very legitimate question about Syrian opposition links with counter revolutionary Cubans.

Not surprising really coming from “The imaginary Party” spokesperson, presumably that’s the political wing of the “Army of the Twelve Monkeys”.
Wonder why the Syrian masses aren’t beating a path to this wadical political doorstep.

[Sasha]

Hihihi, no, the imaginary party is a term out of Tiqqun, and actually the rank and file syrian rebels are already very much part of the imaginary party..

http://libcom.org/library/theses-imaginary-party

[Tim Cornelis]

Aligning oneself with a right-wing Cuban dissident proves that the Syrian rebels aren't revolutionary socialists, which everyone already knew a no one ever claimed they were.

[Threetune]

Aligning oneself with a right-wing Cuban dissident proves that the Syrian rebels aren't revolutionary socialists, which everyone already knew a no one ever claimed they were.

So why doesn’t psycho just say that?, if he’s not claiming they are revolutionary socialists. He is clearly a scholar and can speak for himself on this matter.

[Ocean Seal]

Its kind of funny how the leftist axis of evil is forming up. Religious fundamentalists + Cuban Exiles + Foreign Bourgeoisie.

[Per Levy]

The Syrian rebels are a tool of the western imperialist powers to undermine syria's independence and to prepare it for colonialisation.[quote]

what colonialisation? i heard nothing about colonizing syria from anyone, and who would go to syria to be a colonist?

[QUOTE]A victory for these people (who i remind you have committed atrocities similar or worse than what assad forces have done such as the Houla massacre)

yet, you support assad, wich you say has done exactly the same amount of atrocities(maybe even more so) then the rebels did, so why are the crims of assad so unimportent to you and the crimes of the rebels so importent to you?


would not only make syria a vassal state for imperialism but would isolate other anti imperialist forces in the region such as Hezbollah and the palestinians. Surely that is not in our interests. I would rather CONDITIONALLY back Assad and his regime than support imperialism because impirialism crimes are far worse than the crimes of assad. If imperialism invade hell i would give the devil a good reference.

so you rather support a right wing dictatorship because "anti-imperialism" and you support islamistic organisation like hezbollah and hamas but not the islamistic organisation that fight assad.


By the way for the third time of asking what about the oppositionists links with right wing cuban emigres!!!!!!

right wing fucks support right wing fucks, so what? thats nothing new really.

[Per Levy]

The Cuban exiles are the only true government of Cuba, as they promote Democracy.

ah ja, the followers of batista "promote democracy" how cute, they dont care abot "democracy" all they care about is to get in power and enrich themselfs on the behalf of cuba.

[Sasha]

So why doesn’t psycho just say that?, if he’s not claiming they are revolutionary socialists. He is clearly a scholar and can speak for himself on this matter.


because i already said that the thing we should be wondering about is why (if it happend at all, "global-research" is anything but a objective source) midle-eastern workers bussy overtrowing a ruthless dictator would align themselves with some cuban exiles living in the US.
maybe that says a lot more about the complete and utter failure of "anti-imperialism" than about the nature of the uprising it self?
why o why would the syrian opposition feel close to the cuban oposition, one on one ideoligical unity? or maybe foto ops like these carry some of the blame;
http://www.laht.com/cuba/Raul%20Castro%20-%20Sirias%20Bachar%20al%20Assad.jpg

and i'm no "scholar", im an bouncer training to become a carpenter, i just can think for myself instead of parotting some long dead fella's out of context

[Sasha]

so you rather support a right wing dictatorship because "anti-imperialism" and you support islamistic organisation like hezbollah and hamas but not the islamistic organisation that fight assad.


actually Hamas, being a (sunni) muslim brotherhood aligined group already came out in strong terms against Assad, removed all operatives out of syria and aligend themselves with the uprising, but please dont tell the "anti-imps", surely there are only so much "support" contradictions they can deal with before their brain explodes...

[scarletghoul]

If this news comes as a surprise then youre a bit naive.. If you seriously deny that this could be true then youre a brainwashed liberal moron. If you accept it as truth and still favour the FSA then you should not be posting on this forum at all

[Sasha]

And if you still claim the Syrian opposition is one homogeneous organisation you are either a propaghandist or a tool and probably both.

As explained a thousand times before even the LCC's, the SNC and the FSA internally are already comprised of different heterogenous groups with very differing (class) backgrounds and aims/goals, let alone that some statement or protest signs by some syrian exiles in the US can be used as a brush to taint every Syrian risking their lives fighting against a brutal dictator. A dictator "critically" suported by certain "leftists" and their bourgeois state-capitalist role models.
Sorry but are you seriously saying that someone who shows sympathy with workers and army deserters fighting against a brutal dictatorship for some freedom, not with their self proclaimed leaders not with those seizing on this struggle for sectarianisn or influence just the common Syrian fighting in syria, have no place here while you blantantly support said (bourgeois, capitalist, imperialist) dictator would?
go fuck yourself, seriously...

[cynicles]

Not really shocking, I wonder how they would feel if they knew how the FSA was treating Syrian christians.

[A Marxist Historian]

Not really shocking, I wonder how they would feel if they knew how the FSA was treating Syrian christians.

Why would they care? The Bosnians were a holy cause in America, even though Jews had a difficult time in Bosnia after Yugoslavia collapsed and they all preferred Milosevic. (Which created problems for Israel...)

And pity any Jews still living in Libya!

So the suffering of Christians under the rebels will be suddenly discovered if they have a falling out with their western protectors, and not before.

-M.H.-

[Threetune]

because i already said that the thing we should be wondering about is why (if it happend at all, "global-research" is anything but a objective source) midle-eastern workers bussy overtrowing a ruthless dictator would align themselves with some cuban exiles living in the US.
maybe that says a lot more about the complete and utter failure of "anti-imperialism" than about the nature of the uprising it self?
why o why would the syrian opposition feel close to the cuban oposition, one on one ideoligical unity? or maybe foto ops like these carry some of the blame;
http://www.laht.com/cuba/Raul%20Castro%20-%20Sirias%20Bachar%20al%20Assad.jpg

and i'm no "scholar", im an bouncer training to become a carpenter, i just can think for myself instead of parotting some long dead fella's out of context

A scholar - because you are clearly schooled in dodging questions. REDSOX asked you three times about the Cuban ‘exile’ connection and you have wriggled and squirmed to avoid the obvious answer that the both of these reactionary parties are willing stooges and agents of imperialism and you know it.

[islandmilitia]

A scholar - because you are clearly schooled in dodging questions. REDSOX asked you three times about the Cuban ‘exile’ connection and you have wriggled and squirmed to avoid the obvious answer that the both of these reactionary parties are willing stooges and agents of imperialism and you know it.


What is there to answer, though? We can all agree that members of the SNC met with Cuban exiles, and we can probably also agree that both the SNC and the exiles are, as political actors, reactionary, in that they would, if placed in power, carry out neoliberal reforms and incorporate Cuba and Syria into the Western imperialist bloc. These facts, however, do not in themselves constitute an analysis of the Syrian uprising, because the Syrian uprising goes beyond the SNC. In fact, and as I've already pointed out, the SNC does not have much power to control the LCCs and the FSA, not least because the LCCs and the FSA are themselves complex and heterogenous actors.

[cynicles]

Why would they care? The Bosnians were a holy cause in America, even though Jews had a difficult time in Bosnia after Yugoslavia collapsed and they all preferred Milosevic. (Which created problems for Israel...)

And pity any Jews still living in Libya!

So the suffering of Christians under the rebels will be suddenly discovered if they have a falling out with their western protectors, and not before.

-M.H.-
Yeah they'll probably turn a blind eye like they do in Palestine.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I re-iterate something I mentioned in a previous thread of this ilk...why do we have to support either Assad or the rebels? Why does Assad warrant ANY support ('conditional' or otherwise)? Why back the actions of the rebels irrespective of their goals and ideology.
Why not stand in solidarity with the people getting killed in the cross fire and support any groups (however small or seemingly insignificant) that is against Assad and the foreign powers / interventionists with their own agendas?

[agnixie]

I re-iterate something I mentioned in a previous thread of this ilk...why do we have to support either Assad or the rebels? Why does Assad warrant ANY support ('conditional' or otherwise)? Why back the actions of the rebels irrespective of their goals and ideology.
Why not stand in solidarity with the people getting killed in the cross fire and support any groups (however small or seemingly insignificant) that is against Assad and the foreign powers / interventionists with their own agendas?

Because it doesn't fit with the sclerotic game of Risk the anti-imps, still stuck in cold war alliances and their wide eyed idealization of a Russia that hasn't been on the left since Lenin died, are playing. It shows exactly what happens when people play the diplomatic game instead of caring about directly working with the working class. It's as tragic as social democracy's claims to "soften" capitalism. Here they soften imperialism, by only opposing one side's.

[Sasha]

And pity any Jews still living in Libya!


-M.H.-

Surely you must be taking the piss now :blink:
I hope you are a better marxist historian than a jewish one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Libya

There are no jews is lybia there havent been a jewish population for decades, by the time gaddaffi came to power a 100 jews where left of a population of what was once more that 25% of the tripoli population, gadaffi siezed all the assests of the exiled jews and ran a distinctly anti-semite platform untill 2004 when he started to cozy up to the US.
In fact the first jew only returned after the fall of gadaffi.

The fucking nerve you have to suddeny "pitty the jews in libya", you dont give a shit about us, you dont give a shit what happend to us under stalin, you dont give a shit what happenend to us under british/arab rule in palestine, under gadaffi, the mullah's, assad, you cheerleader all kinds of openly anti-semite groups and would probably cheer a arab invasion of israel way after the first wave of genocide. Its people like you that make anti-zionist jews like me a insignificant minority. Fuck you with a rusty crowbar.

[REDSOX]

It realy is apparent that some on these boards really think this is a progressive uprising against a monstrous tyrant. I on the other hand certainly do not. Sure assad is a bad man and so was his father who crushed an uprising in hamma in 1982. However the alternative to assad is worse in the form of a wahhibist imperialist colonialist shithole which would emerge if this national council were to win. Syria would be a vassal state for imperialism and israeli zionism. This must be stopped and Syria could very well be imperialism's waterloo if syrian patriot forces defeat these bandits and from what i can gather they are winning this battle. If syria loses then its sudan and then iran the russia and china then latin america who knows where this will end. The hezbollah and the palestinians will be isolated and the forces of darkness will descend on this region. This is why i am CONDITIONALLY backing assad warts and all because the alternative is imperialist domination and not as some seem to think a workers state

[agnixie]

It realy is apparent that some on these boards really think this is a progressive uprising against a monstrous tyrant.

Cut the fucking strawman.



The hezbollah and the palestinians will be isolated and the forces of darkness will descend on this region. This is why i am CONDITIONALLY backing assad warts and all because the alternative is imperialist domination and not as some seem to think a workers state

You were whining about islamists yesterday, now you like them?

Also fuck off, Hezbollah doesn't give two shits about a workers' state. They'd be absolutely fine with old school arab/ottoman aristocracy so long as they were islamist. The fact that you think you have to back that because the alternative isn't a worker's state either is exactly what I meant by sclerotic pseudo-leftism. You're just cheerleading teams on a risk board.

[Positivist]

I really don't support Assad and the Ba'ath party or the rebel movement, it just seems like an unnecessary civil war over choosing your masters. That being said, Russian and Iranian investment into Syrian industry isn't really extensive enough to make it imperialist, certainly nothing like what the western powers will do if they gain full economic access.

So I certainly don't support any factions crying for foreign intervention, and if the LCC is opposing both the Assad dictatorship, and the pathway to proxy imperialism being set up by other rebels, than I support them, though I really don't know, are they in a position to affect any real change? Obviously it was their anti-imperialist line which dominated the early calls of the revolution but since then all that I've really heard about is the Free Syrian Army. Is the LCC actually strong enough to oppose both Assad and the western backed rebels?

[REDSOX]

I dont do strawman arguments than you

And i will remind you that it was Hezbollah who stopped the forces of zionism when they invaded lebabon in 2006. Whose side were you on there then zionism, or hezbollah and the heroic lebanese people.

I would some it up like this, better a workers regime than assad, better assad than imperialism

[Threetune]

The Leninists in Syria will be organising against the FSA and at the same time warning the masses against any illusions in any anti-imperialist, nationalist and socialistic rhetoric of the ruling bourgeois circles around Assad.

They will be calling on the workers to ‘defeat’ the imperialist intriguing with the FSA armed stooges of Israel, USA, and Saudi Arabia etc and preparing the poor masses for revolution against the ruling class by explaining that it is the imperialist economic crisis of over production of capital that was behind the hideous war blitzing of tiny Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now ‘softening up’ Syria for the same fate unless the decades long anti-imperialist revolution in Syria is finally pushed to its conclusion – the dictatorship of the proletariat.

This is the program that only a Leninist leadership will advance against all the fake ‘lefts’ and nationalists who are now busily spreading the maximum defeatist confusion around the proletariat.
Defeat imperialism!!!
Build the dictatorship of the proletariat!!!

[Sasha]

God, we all fucking agree the wars in all those places where wrong because a. war is just wrong and b. The civilian costs and c. the people need to liberate themselves but fucking stop saying that the biggest problem was and is the entrance of western capital, firstly capital, western and non western was already firmly inplace (and if not its not that liberal capital is worse than fuedal or tribal dictatorship capital, that would be a very un-marxist position)
Do not fucking act like the taliban was the better germany, sorry better afghanistan, it was not, its so fucking rich all these "anti-imps" living comfortably in the western world scolding workers suffering under the worst of brutal dictarships for wanting some liberal capitalist democracy.
no its not a revolutionary leftist struggle, but denying them these things certainly isnt either and going straight from feudal dictatorship to communism has shown to be fucking impossible anyways, what fo ypu have on offer? More breadlines, more gulags, more people dissapeared by a pervasive secret police and more massgraves, no wonder they rather fight for ipads and Starbucks and the right to vote in some reformists.

[Threetune]

So speaks the true voice of the ‘left’, and what all this bilious rant means is that we have to choose the lesser of two evils and the only choice therefore is imperialist capitalism!!!
This has been the cry of the opportunists in the workers movements down the ages when confronted with Leninist revolutionary theory. ‘You must choose’ they say, 'between this that or the other ‘evil’ or capitalism and its reforms'. Until the next great crisis, that is, when all reforms are swept away in an even greater destruction of surplus capital than the last one.

The ‘lefts’ of every stripe have been sneaking this cringing compromise politics into heads of workers and here we are again with this liberal whimper “no its not a revolutionary leftist struggle, but denying them these things certainly isnt either…” which means forward with capitalist democracy the greatest con ever practised on so many by so few. Forward with looking after number one at the expense of whoever is weaker and at the bottom of the ‘dog eat dog’ free world system.

The ignorance of Marxist economic understanding in the above anti-revolutionary rant simply underscores the breathtaking philistinism of the anti-communist world view.
But better out on the surface at last where we can see it instead of being hidden beneath pretend ‘left’ revolutionism.

[Sasha]

fuck you, im not the one choosing one bourgeois capitaist leadership over the other, i stand with the workers, even if they choose reformism for now because communism is unfantomable to them.
why should workers die for leninism if that will never bring communism but just a more brutal form of exploitative capital than the other.
the nuclues of communism is found in struggles like the indian carfactory workers who killed their boss and set fire to the plant because they where all contract workers instead of getting full employement, the next phase will be when like in greece or argentinia the factories get closed down and the workers take them over, when the communities reconnect the closed off electricity, and then there will be many many more steps, probably all decried by your lot because "not communism!!!" while your siting on your comfy bloated arse playing russia 1920's roleplaying games while the world burns.
some leninist vanguard siezing power before the workers rise up in general revolt will only lead to state-capitalism and thus a move further away to communism.
but its gets very clear what you think is communism, and if thats communism i want no part of it, and thank marx the proletariat neither.

[Threetune]

fuck you, im not the one choosing one bourgeois capitaist leadership over the other, i stand with the workers, even if they choose reformism for now because communism is unfantomable to them.


That is exactly what you are doing. You are choosing (over the heads of the Syrian workers) what you think is reformed western liberal capitalism of NATO etc over barbaric eastern capitalism of Assad and the taliban etc.
You want us to chose what you think is capitalism with a pleasant side over capitalism with no pleasant side. That’s pure reformism plain and simple. The rest of the anti-communist verbiage is just a big smokescreen to hide your own true pro reformist capitalist politics.

[cynicles]

There is something hilarious about this debate. Criticize Assad and you're assumed to be an imperialist, criticize the opposition and youre assumed to support the dictatorship, where's one of those middle way liberal types when you need them?

[khad]

There is something hilarious about this debate. Criticize Assad and you're assumed to be an imperialist, criticize the opposition and youre assumed to support the dictatorship, where's one of those middle way liberal types when you need them?
Dead in a ditch, which is exactly where they should be after the Salafi scum are done with them.

[Tim Cornelis]

And i will remind you that it was Hezbollah who stopped the forces of zionism when they invaded lebabon in 2006. Whose side were you on there then zionism, or hezbollah and the heroic lebanese people.

I would some it up like this, better a workers regime than assad, better assad than imperialism

You don't see the incredible hypocrisy slapping you in the face?

You support an openly radical Islamist group because it opposes a form of oppression you don't like (in this case Zionism).

Yet in Syria, the reason you gave us to oppose this uprising is because you oppose an alleged or partial radical Islamist.

[agnixie]

[FONT=Verdana]
Afghanistan

Afghanistan, you mean the place where the US got rid of an uppity attempted puppet regime that was put in place brutally to get rid of a properly socialist one? The place run by the same islamists you claimed were behind the Lybian uprising?

Some leftist you are. If it was the 80s you'd be whining about poor old Noriega. You don't even have the decency to limit yourself to people who paint themselves red, you'll take any dictator no matter how fascist, no matter how anti-communist, so long as they prefer other imperialism to american imperialism. You are a farce of a troll.


And i will remind you that it was Hezbollah who stopped the forces of zionism when they invaded lebabon in 2006. Whose side were you on there then zionism, or hezbollah and the heroic lebanese people.

And the Greek fascist government was invaded by Italy during ww2, it doesn't make them good or on our side. It doesn't matter a damn thing, you disgusting orientalist. Hezbollah is not the heroic lebanese people.

[Threetune]

Afghanistan, you mean the place where the US got rid of an uppity attempted puppet regime that was put in place brutally to get rid of a properly socialist one? The place run by the same islamists you claimed were behind the Lybian uprising?

Some leftist you are. If it was the 80s you'd be whining about poor old Noriega. You don't even have the decency to limit yourself to people who paint themselves red, you'll take any dictator no matter how fascist, no matter how anti-communist, so long as they prefer other imperialism to american imperialism. You are a farce of a troll.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you even know?

[Turinbaar]

Dead in a ditch, which is exactly where they should be after the Salafi scum are done with them.

if the Alawi don't find them first

............

BTW does Threetune have an example of a Leninist organization in Syria doing the things he claims they would do?

[cynicles]

if the Alawi don't find them first


Is it possible to get someone banned for sectarianism of the religious kind on these forums?

Accusing an entire sect in the country of a crime that the government is responsible for is exactly the problem.

[Turinbaar]

Is it possible to get someone banned for sectarianism of the religious kind on these forums?

Accusing an entire sect in the country of a crime that the government is responsible for is exactly the problem.

Your being absurd. How was I being a religious sectarian? Its not sectarian to notice that the Assad, and his para-militaries, the shabiha, are themselves Allawite sectarians, and just as likely to kill as the salafi.

If your going to have people banned for saying this or that about an entire sect, then why not start with the mod and his talk of "Salafi Scum"?

[cynicles]

Your being absurd. How was I being a religious sectarian? Its not sectarian to notice that the Assad, and his para-militaries, the shabiha, are themselves Allawite sectarians, and just as likely to kill as the salafi.

If your going to have people banned for saying this or that about an entire sect, then why not start with the mod and his talk of "Salafi Scum"?
You said the Allawi, you never specified Shabiha or the government, that sounds like the same sectarianism coming out of much of the opposition and western news. And your absolutely right, the mod should apologize for for calling the whoever Salafi scum, they're scum who happen to be Salafites, not all Salafis are bad.

[Turinbaar]

You said the Allawi, you never specified Shabiha or the government, that sounds like the same sectarianism coming out of much of the opposition and western news. And your absolutely right, the mod should apologize for for calling the whoever Salafi scum, they're scum who happen to be Salafites, not all Salafis are bad.

It was a crude reply to a crude moderator statement, I agree and it could be said in the same way that not all alawi are scum, the Shabiha, Baath etc are scum who happen to be Alawi.

[Os Cangaceiros]

These "Rebels" are terrorists and criminals and other forms of banditry armed trained financed by the saudi/qataris and western imperialist powers. The syrian emigres also have linked with the right wing cuban opposition as i have outlined. How can any leftist support these people is beyond me

The word "rebels" says nothing about the ideological content of said rebels.

[islandmilitia]

so its not a revolutionary leftist struggle, but denying them these things certainly isnt either and going straight from feudal dictatorship to communism has shown to be fucking impossible anyways, what fo ypu have on offer?

Whilst, as I hope you can tell, I sympathize with you in this discussion, I don't think this is the right analysis. In the first place I think it's very problematic to describe the state formation in Syria as being feudal in any sense - the significance of Ba'athism in Iraq and Syria is that it came into being as a modernizing authoritarian system precisely because the traditional ruling classes, comprised of the landowners and the comprador bourgeoisie, were not in a position to carry out the tasks of modernization and did not have any basis of popular legitimacy. The class basis of Ba'athism at its inception was amongst the professional middle classes and intelligentsia, and for most of its existence the Ba'athist model was basically a state-capitalist mode of accumulation which incorporated a certain social pact, which was used to maintain the support of workers and peasants. This analysis is important because I think in order to understand the roots of the current rebellion, you need to look at the breakdown of the Ba'athist model from the 1980s onwards, and especially the rejection of its social elements in favor of a more neoliberal set of policies. That breakdown had nothing to do with feudalism.

More generally, I don't think we should support the rebellion because we think socialism is impossible in countries which are not already bourgeois democracies, because that line of argument reproduces all the classic Menshevik and Stalinist arguments which have been used to obstruct possibilities for revolution in non-Western countries. That is, we should not support the rebellion on liberal-democratic grounds, we should support it for other reasons. In fact, I am skeptical about the idea that a stable liberal democratic state is possible in much of the periphery, outside of highly specific circumstances, because the social contradictions are such that the ruling class required authoritarian means in order to stabilize its position and privileges. Even in those states which are viewed as examples liberal democracy in the periphery, you see that formal democratic structures are often combined with elements of authoritarianism and political violence which go beyond the authoritarian measures which are present in the liberal democracies of the West - so, in South Korea, you have the National Security Act, which is used to effectively repress even the most theoretical and intellectual forms of left-wing politics. What this suggests in relation to Egypt and Syria is that a functioning liberal democracy will probably only emerge for a short period of time and as a result of a highly specific configuration of social and political forces, and that there will ultimately emerge a choice between radicalization, which will go beyond the boundaries of liberal democracy, or a shift towards established forms of peripheral neoliberal authoritarianism. That same choice may be becoming universal under contemporary capitalism due to liberal democracy becoming more authoritarian even in its classical Western homelands.


Do not fucking act like the taliban was the better germany, sorry better afghanistan, it was not, its so fucking rich all these "anti-imps" living comfortably in the western world scolding workers suffering under the worst of brutal dictarships for wanting some liberal capitalist democracy.

I also feel it necessary to emphasize that I identify as an anti-imperialist, and that I think there are conditions under which Marxists should support the military victory of non-socialist political forces, when there is a definite conflict between oppressed and oppressor nations. For that reason, there are certain conditions under which I would want to see the defeat of the Syrian rebellion, specifically if that rebellion were to be wholly co-opted by imperialism. That being said, I don't think many of the arguments posed in this thread represent a progressive anti-imperialist politics, because they are underpinned by illusions in the Assad regime, and a rejection of the right of the oppressed to determine their own future.

[khad]

salafis arent a sect. maybe he meant salafi ideology of the 'rebels' and foriegn jihadists in syria.
Well, no shit.

[A Marxist Historian]

Your being absurd. How was I being a religious sectarian? Its not sectarian to notice that the Assad, and his para-militaries, the shabiha, are themselves Allawite sectarians, and just as likely to kill as the salafi.

If your going to have people banned for saying this or that about an entire sect, then why not start with the mod and his talk of "Salafi Scum"?

Well, not so simple. The Alawites are just another item on the menu in the religious smorgasbord of the Middle East. In fact, a minority religion with a history of being persecuted by more orthodox Muslim majorities.

Salafi are the Muslim equivalent of Christian fundamentalists. Backward looking medievalists and stone reactionaries, like all those holy rollers and whatnot cluttering up the American backwoods.

Maybe not all of them are "scum," but saying nasty things about them is at worst a venial sin in the Revleft catechism.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Surely you must be taking the piss now :blink:
I hope you are a better marxist historian than a jewish one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Libya

There are no jews is lybia there havent been a jewish population for decades, by the time gaddaffi came to power a 100 jews where left of a population of what was once more that 25% of the tripoli population, gadaffi siezed all the assests of the exiled jews and ran a distinctly anti-semite platform untill 2004 when he started to cozy up to the US.
In fact the first jew only returned after the fall of gadaffi.

I confess to ignorance about Jews in Libya, I have been duly enlightened by you and your crowbar.

But I do think that that Jew foolish enough to return to Libya after the fall of Q'adaffi will regret it. Not the first Jew in our history to be overconfident about protection from the ruling classes and imperial overlords vs. anti-Jewish religious fanatics.


The fucking nerve you have to suddeny "pitty the jews in libya", you dont give a shit about us, you dont give a shit what happend to us under stalin, you dont give a shit what happenend to us under british/arab rule in palestine, under gadaffi, the mullah's, assad, you cheerleader all kinds of openly anti-semite groups and would probably cheer a arab invasion of israel way after the first wave of genocide. Its people like you that make anti-zionist jews like me a insignificant minority. Fuck you with a rusty crowbar.

I find that amusing, as I have relatives in Israel (in fact distant ones who are quite famous) and could exercise that ol' Right of Return if I ever went totally off my nut.

I'm a supporter of the Spartacists, whom various others on the Left denounce as allegedly Zionist 'cuz they dont support the idea that all Jews should be driven into the sea, and recognize that a nation speaking Hebrew has just as much right to self-determination as one speaking Arabic--and that, given that you have two intertwined people in one much too small and God-infested territory, the only solution is socialism, not pipe dreams of a "one state" or "two state" solution. But that the Palestinians have to be supported because, for the moment at least, they are the oppressed and the Israelis are the oppressors. I'd like to think I support that position because it's correct, not because of my ethnic heritage.

As for persecution of Jews in the USSR, I know all about that, have even written about it in other venues. But before the Revolution, Jews were the lowest of the low, dirt poor and starving in the shtetls and fleeing for America as fast as they could.

After the Revolution, a population of schnorrers and luftmensch'n turned rapidly into a population of intellectuals and bureaucrats. Despite all the discrimination of Stalin's last years that continued under Khrushchev and his successors, Soviet Jewry were part of the Soviet elite by and large.

You allege that you are an "anti-Zionist Jew." Well, you sure don't sound like it in this thread.

-M.H.-

[Turinbaar]

by your commenthow have you 'noticed' that they are all alawite sectarians?
n.b. most of the regime,ba'ath,army,and support is sunni

Its self evident that they are Alawite sectarians in the same way the Iraqi Baath were Sunni sectarians. I feel like I'm really explaining to someone that the Ulster Defense Association is a protestant militia, and being met with blank stares of incredulity. Assad's clan, who control party, state, and army, are Alawi's, and so are their paramilitaries, while their victims have been mostly the sunni inhabitants of sunni majority areas. Rather than putting quotation marks around words as though it substituted a critique, why note provide evidence that "most of the regime, ba'ath, army,and support is sunni." Considering historical massacres like Hama in '82 I would doubt it.

and how many sunnis make up the membership and support of the Shabiha, in proportion to their victims?


Salafi are the Muslim equivalent of Christian fundamentalists. Backward looking medievalists and stone reactionaries, like all those holy rollers and whatnot cluttering up the American backwoods.

-M.H.-

And the Alawi Twelvers think that a messiah is on his way back to bring Armageddon and a day of judgement. How are they different again?

[Sasha]

:huh:

you would deny that arabs in 1920/1930's palestine commited at regular times atracous acts against jewish palestines? and that these acts often where supported and facilitated by the mufti's? sure they are more than matched by acts by the irgun and lehi later during the zionist uprising but a materialist analysis would surely show that the foundation of that period and these groups is found in the actions of the british colonialists towards both the arab and jewish population and the consequent actions of the arab uprising that not primairly targetted the brittish but palestinian jews.

[Tim Finnegan]

The Leninists in Syria will be organising against the FSA and at the same time warning the masses against any illusions in any anti-imperialist, nationalist and socialistic rhetoric of the ruling bourgeois circles around Assad.

They will be calling on the workers to ‘defeat’ the imperialist intriguing with the FSA armed stooges of Israel, USA, and Saudi Arabia etc and preparing the poor masses for revolution against the ruling class by explaining that it is the imperialist economic crisis of over production of capital that was behind the hideous war blitzing of tiny Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now ‘softening up’ Syria for the same fate unless the decades long anti-imperialist revolution in Syria is finally pushed to its conclusion – the dictatorship of the proletariat.

This is the program that only a Leninist leadership will advance against all the fake ‘lefts’ and nationalists who are now busily spreading the maximum defeatist confusion around the proletariat.
Defeat imperialism!!!
Build the dictatorship of the proletariat!!!

oh my fucking god you are a cartoon

[cynicles]

and how many sunnis make up the membership and support of the Shabiha, in proportion to their victims?


The bulk of Assad supporter in Aleppo are middle and upperclass sunnis, I'd venture to bet that pattern is replicated throughout the rest of Syria in majour urban areas. I doubt Assad could continue with support only from a small fraction of the population.

[A Marxist Historian]

Its self evident that they are Alawite sectarians in the same way the Iraqi Baath were Sunni sectarians. I feel like I'm really explaining to someone that the Ulster Defense Association is a protestant militia, and being met with blank stares of incredulity. Assad's clan, who control party, state, and army, are Alawi's, and so are their paramilitaries, while their victims have been mostly the sunni inhabitants of sunni majority areas. Rather than putting quotation marks around words as though it substituted a critique, why note provide evidence that "most of the regime, ba'ath, army,and support is sunni." Considering historical massacres like Hama in '82 I would doubt it.

and how many sunnis make up the membership and support of the Shabiha, in proportion to their victims?



And the Alawi Twelvers think that a messiah is on his way back to bring Armageddon and a day of judgement. How are they different again?

That, may I point out, is orthodox Christian doctrine, believed in one way or another by all Christian cult-sects, starting with the biggest one, the Catholics. Except for particularly liberal Proddies. De-emphasized by most of 'em, but it's still there.

And, of course, Jews think the Messiah is coming too, sooner or later, though only the real Old Testament Hasids have the kind of fire and brimstone ideas about it that Christians go in for.

So that's not a basis to put all Alawites in the crazed extremist bag.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

...

And the Alawi Twelvers think that a messiah is on his way back to bring Armageddon and a day of judgement. How are they different again?

Not being a great expert on Alawism, and not wanting to do any real research, I lazily checked Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi

According to Wikipedia, for whatever that is worth, probably the main doctrinal distinguishing feature of the Alawite sect is that ... religious doctrine is just not that important to them, which is why they throw in bits of all sorts of things, even celebrate Christmas.

And, of course, the Alawite-dominated Syrian regime is noted for its secularism.

So yeah, putting Alawites in the same bag as Salafis is grossly unfair.

Now, that doesn't mean that Assad's regime doesn't engage in murderous repression against Islamic rebels, but at least it ain't 'cuz Assad thinks he has God in his ear.

What's happening is that Syria is coming apart, and the different ethnic-religious communities are murdering each other. Just like neighboring Lebanon in the '80s, which is a country with no real reason for existence other than French imperialism carving it out of Syria for its own purposes way back when.

This is a thoroughly reactionary war on both sides, and those who see the rebels as "working class resistance" are particularly delusional.

But if the imperialists intervene into this civil war in a really major fashion, it will become necessary to side militarily at any rate with the opposite side, which happens to be Assad's.

-M.H.-

[Turinbaar]

The bulk of Assad supporter in Aleppo are middle and upperclass sunnis, I'd venture to bet that pattern is replicated throughout the rest of Syria in majour urban areas. I doubt Assad could continue with support only from a small fraction of the population.

well if more Sunni scholars like the ones in Aleppo continue to denounce the regime, then I suppose you would be right that it could't last very long.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/assad-loses-grip-on-syrias-second-city-as-sheikhs-back-insurgents-7964277.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php%3Fsy_seq%3D135929&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php%253Fsy_seq%253D135929%26hl%3Den%26saf e%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Dimvn s&sa=X&ei=EwETUKjjJoGCiwLM3ICIAg&ved=0CDIQ7gEwAA


Not being a great expert on Alawism, and not wanting to do any real research, I lazily checked Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawi

According to Wikipedia, for whatever that is worth, probably the main doctrinal distinguishing feature of the Alawite sect is that ... religious doctrine is just not that important to them, which is why they throw in bits of all sorts of things, even celebrate Christmas.

And, of course, the Alawite-dominated Syrian regime is noted for its secularism.

So yeah, putting Alawites in the same bag as Salafis is grossly unfair.

Now, that doesn't mean that Assad's regime doesn't engage in murderous repression against Islamic rebels, but at least it ain't 'cuz Assad thinks he has God in his ear.

What's happening is that Syria is coming apart, and the different ethnic-religious communities are murdering each other. Just like neighboring Lebanon in the '80s, which is a country with no real reason for existence other than French imperialism carving it out of Syria for its own purposes way back when.

This is a thoroughly reactionary war on both sides, and those who see the rebels as "working class resistance" are particularly delusional.

But if the imperialists intervene into this civil war in a really major fashion, it will become necessary to side militarily at any rate with the opposite side, which happens to be Assad's.

-M.H.-

well if you're going to split hairs like that then I'll have to point out that there is no actual equivalent to salafist jihadism among american bible thumpers, as you first asserted that there was, no matter how medievalist Pat Robertson etc. may appear.

Not only does Assad repress islamists, but also he supports them, like Hezbollah. Its all according to what sort of islamist they are, so the claim of secularism made for the Alawi dominated regime is empty, just as the claim that the regime that gave birth to the Islamic Legion was a secular one is empty. One doesn't have to believe one is hearing from God in order to assert the power interests of one religious group over another.

Just wondering, who do you mean by those that will necessarily side militarily with Assad in the event of western intervention? Are you talking about the working class of Syria, or assholes on the internet like us? I don't think he'll find too many recruits from either camp.

[Sasha]

But if the imperialists intervene into this civil war in a really major fashion, it will become necessary to side militarily at any rate with the opposite side, which happens to be Assad's.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

[cynicles]

well if more Sunni scholars like the ones in Aleppo continue to denounce the regime, then I suppose you would be right that it could't last very long.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/assad-loses-grip-on-syrias-second-city-as-sheikhs-back-insurgents-7964277.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php%3Fsy_seq%3D135929&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php%253Fsy_seq%253D135929%26hl%3Den%26saf e%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Dimvn s&sa=X&ei=EwETUKjjJoGCiwLM3ICIAg&ved=0CDIQ7gEwAA

If the scholars have any influence over the residents, I doubt the scholars will be the deciding factor. It's more like theyll switch sides when it looks like they're going to lose, opportunism and what not. I'm skeptical of the first article though since every month the Assas seems to be 'near defeat' or 'losing his grip on power'. I think people are underestimating the support he enjoys and the portion of the population who are apathetic to both the regime and opposition.

[A Marxist Historian]

well if you're going to split hairs like that then I'll have to point out that there is no actual equivalent to salafist jihadism among american bible thumpers, as you first asserted that there was, no matter how medievalist Pat Robertson etc. may appear.

Oh please, that really is checking for how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Yes, no Christians call for jihad, and if they did, they'd call it something else, crusading I suppose. Nonetheless, there are plenty of crazed Protestant fundamentalists fully as reactionary and insane as the Salafists, do you seriously doubt that? Some pretty whacked out ultraorthodox Jews in Israel too. (And let's not even get into mass murderous Hindus in India and Buddhists in Sri Lanka).

And the Alawites are just another sect, a bit more militarist but if anything less religiously obsessed than your average Muslim.

That's not hairsplitting, that's making basic and obvious distinctions obvious to everyone.


Not only does Assad repress islamists, but also he supports them, like Hezbollah. Its all according to what sort of islamist they are, so the claim of secularism made for the Alawi dominated regime is empty, just as the claim that the regime that gave birth to the Islamic Legion was a secular one is empty. One doesn't have to believe one is hearing from God in order to assert the power interests of one religious group over another.

It's not according to what sort of Islamist they are, it's according to Ba'ath party political convenience. Since he's an Alawite, and the Sunni fanatics have been pushing around and oppressing the Alawites for hundreds of years, they try to overthrow him, and he responds accordingly. If they supported him, like a lot of the upper class Sunni do, he'd have no trouble with them.

The Alawites are effectively more like an ethnic than a religious group, when you get right down to it. It is more Lebanese style ethnic tribalism than a true religious dispute from their POV. Assad is basically a Syrian nationalist, and as far as he is concerned, Alawites are true Syrians, and he's not so sure about the Sunni--with good reason I suppose.

Nationalists are always murdering each other, as are religious fanatics. But it's a different phenomenon.


Just wondering, who do you mean by those that will necessarily side militarily with Assad in the event of western intervention? Are you talking about the working class of Syria, or assholes on the internet like us? I don't think he'll find too many recruits from either camp.

As for the working class of Syria, they are mostly ducking and trying to stay out of the line of fire.

But if there's a western military intervention? Just why do you think there hasn't been? Because everyone knows, most of all the imperialists, if you have an outright military intervention, especially if the Israelis get involved, there will be a huge outburst of Syrian patriotism sweeping all classes of Syrian society, and rebel support will start to melt away.

So why are the rebels sidling in that direction anyway? Desperation. It's getting increasingly clear that Assad isn't going anywhere, and they just don't have either the military force or enough popular support to overthrow him without help.

-M.H.-

[Turinbaar]

Oh please, that really is checking for how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Yes, no Christians call for jihad, and if they did, they'd call it something else, crusading I suppose. Nonetheless, there are plenty of crazed Protestant fundamentalists fully as reactionary and insane as the Salafists, do you seriously doubt that? Some pretty whacked out ultraorthodox Jews in Israel too. (And let's not even get into mass murderous Hindus in India and Buddhists in Sri Lanka).

And the Alawites are just another sect, a bit more militarist but if anything less religiously obsessed than your average Muslim.

That's not hairsplitting, that's making basic and obvious distinctions obvious to everyone.

It is rather hair-splitting to say that salafi militias are so much different from the alwai militias because one may be more openly devout. I never denied that these crazed christians and jews exist. All I claimed is that if the ideology of Salafis can be compared to american christian fundamentalists, then so too can the twelfth Imam ideology of the Alawi.



Nationalists are always murdering each other, as are religious fanatics. But it's a different phenomenon.

Nationalist wars can take on a religious character, especially when the participants have religions associated with tribe ethnicity, so it's not so different really. For instance the conflict in burma in not only between Muslims and Buddhists (a burmese nationalist phrase states "to be Burmese is to be Buddhist"), but also between ethnic groups associated with those religions.


As for the working class of Syria, they are mostly ducking and trying to stay out of the line of fire.
But if there's a western military intervention? Just why do you think there hasn't been? Because everyone knows, most of all the imperialists, if you have an outright military intervention, especially if the Israelis get involved, there will be a huge outburst of Syrian patriotism sweeping all classes of Syrian society, and rebel support will start to melt away.

So why are the rebels sidling in that direction anyway? Desperation. It's getting increasingly clear that Assad isn't going anywhere, and they just don't have either the military force or enough popular support to overthrow him without help.

-M.H.-

I doubt that Assad has the popular support you claim he does, and if Israel does intervene I doubt that there would be an outburst of patriotism, rather the country would shatter apart as break away states form among the various ethnic and religious factions.

[freeeveryone!]

These "Rebels" are terrorists and criminals and other forms of banditry armed trained financed by the saudi/qataris and western imperialist powers.none of those things are mutually exclusive with being a rebel.

[freeeveryone!]

why then not stand critically with the local co-ordination commitees, opposed to assad, opposed to external interferance, opposed to sectarianism..note how none of what you said was "opposed to the right wing rebels".

some of us promote working class politics as opposed to eurocentric anti-authoritarianism.

[Book O'Dead]

As a Guevaraist i can say without embarrasment [...]

To say you are a "Guevarista" is to display your ignorance of what Che stood for.

Ernesto Guevara de la Serna was, by all accounts, including his own, was a Bolivarista.

[Sasha]

note how none of what you said was "opposed to the right wing rebels".

some of us promote working class politics as opposed to eurocentric anti-authoritarianism.

Because for the quazillionsttime the opposition is a highly hetrogenous movement, the LCC'S who already differ from town to town, neighbourhood to neighbourhood in general oppose the SNC (about who the article in the o.p. is), have a very mixed relationship with the FSA (who they at first rejected but now they are there anyways need to not get slaughtered), they are all opposed to the jihaddists (and even they are a very mixed, confused bunch it seems, a dutch journalist was taken hostage by them the past month, he describes them as ranging from Libyans and south yemenites who seemingly see "jihad" as a Pan-arab national liberation struggle to angry young British Pakistani who want death and chaos, anyways the journo was liberated guns blazing by the FSA).

And like I already explained, prob the only reason why some Syrian opposition feel any need for connecting with the Cuban contra's (other than getting their hands on any funds and weaponconnections they can get) is because the Castro's chose to be in bed with the assads for decades.
It's fucking rich to start about "working-class" politics if its your lot who stand with some known right-wing bourgeois capitalist dictator against a broad opposition that may or may not in some small part be right-wing but who first of all comprise for 99.9% of workers (even other anti-imps in this thread admit that assad bought of the upper and middle class of suni's) giving their life for some more freedom and economic justice.
Like I already explained, it has been your lot who all over the region equalled "leftism" with any bourgeois capitalist who throws around some "anti-imperialist" platitudes, and thus in the eyes of syrians made "leftism" synonomus with the anything but leftist regime loyal baath and national-socialist parties. And you have the fucking nerve to fault some in the opposition for looking to the right? Why don't you look to yourself and the disastrous politics from your lot over the last 50 years first?

[agnixie]

To say you are a "Guevarista" is to display your ignorance of what Che stood for.

Ernesto Guevara de la Serna was, by all accounts, including his own, was a Bolivarista.

Not that I disagree that he said it, but this makes about as much sense as an american communist calling themselves a Washingtonist.

[blake 3:17]

To say you are a "Guevarista" is to display your ignorance of what Che stood for.

Ernesto Guevara de la Serna was, by all accounts, including his own, was a Bolivarista.


It's kind of obnoxious to identify ideologically with something named after yourself. Anyways, threadrift....

[freeeveryone!]

Because for the quazillionsttime the opposition is a highly hetrogenous movement, the LCC'S who already differ from town to town, neighbourhood to neighbourhood in general oppose the SNC (about who the article in the o.p. is), have a very mixed relationship with the FSA (who they at first rejected but now they are there anyways need to not get slaughtered), they are all opposed to the jihaddists (and even they are a very mixed, confused bunch it seems, a dutch journalist was taken hostage by them the past month, he describes them as ranging from Libyans and south yemenites who seemingly see "jihad" as a Pan-arab national liberation struggle to angry young British Pakistani who want death and chaos, anyways the journo was liberated guns blazing by the FSA).the libyan opposition was heterogenous too. heterogenous where there are no factions which are for working class politics are homogenously bourgeois.


And like I already explained, prob the only reason why some Syrian opposition feel any need for connecting with the Cuban contra's (other than getting their hands on any funds and weaponconnections they can get) is because the Castro's chose to be in bed with the assads for decades.the only reason Irish national liberationists worked with nazis during world war II was because the nazis opposed the british. its the same situation. what do you want everyone to get out of this fact? it certainly isn't a good justification.


It's fucking rich to start about "working-class" politics if its your lot who stand with some known right-wing bourgeois capitalist dictator against a broad opposition that may or may not in some small part be right-wing but who first of all comprise for 99.9% of workers (even other anti-imps in this thread admit that assad bought of the upper and middle class of suni's) giving their life for some more freedom and economic justice. who is "my lot"? I'll give you a hint, it isnt marxist leninists by any stretch.

and is "other anti-imps" meant to imply that I am one?


Like I already explained, it has been your lot who all over the region equalled "leftism" with any bourgeois capitalist who throws around some "anti-imperialist" platitudes, and thus in the eyes of syrians made "leftism" synonomus with the anything but leftist regime loyal baath and national-socialist parties. And you have the fucking nerve to fault some in the opposition for looking to the right? Why don't you look to yourself and the disastrous politics from your lot over the last 50 years first?yes, "my lot". I must be one of the anti-imp baathist supporters, after all who else oppose your noble cruise missile leftist politics?

[Binh]

Sad to see leftists defending regimes that tortured in collaboration with Bush and U.S. imperialism.

[A Marxist Historian]

Sad to see leftists defending regimes that tortured in collaboration with Bush and U.S. imperialism.

Hmmm, so did Saddam Hussein, as we all know.

So was Bush Jr. right to invade Iraq and liberate all those oppressed Kurds and Shi'ites rebelling against Hussein? Who, may I point out, were if anything more politically heterogenous, more working class, and less directly beholden to US imperialism than this bunch of Sunni sectarians in Syria?

Except for some of the Kurds, at least nobody in Iraq was sucking up to Israel! And Hussein's treatment of the populace made Assad look like a saint.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Because for the quazillionsttime the opposition is a highly hetrogenous movement, the LCC'S who already differ from town to town, neighbourhood to neighbourhood in general oppose the SNC (about who the article in the o.p. is), have a very mixed relationship with the FSA (who they at first rejected but now they are there anyways need to not get slaughtered), they are all opposed to the jihaddists (and even they are a very mixed, confused bunch it seems, a dutch journalist was taken hostage by them the past month, he describes them as ranging from Libyans and south yemenites who seemingly see "jihad" as a Pan-arab national liberation struggle to angry young British Pakistani who want death and chaos, anyways the journo was liberated guns blazing by the FSA).

And like I already explained, prob the only reason why some Syrian opposition feel any need for connecting with the Cuban contra's (other than getting their hands on any funds and weaponconnections they can get) is because the Castro's chose to be in bed with the assads for decades.
It's fucking rich to start about "working-class" politics if its your lot who stand with some known right-wing bourgeois capitalist dictator against a broad opposition that may or may not in some small part be right-wing but who first of all comprise for 99.9% of workers (even other anti-imps in this thread admit that assad bought of the upper and middle class of suni's) giving their life for some more freedom and economic justice.
Like I already explained, it has been your lot who all over the region equalled "leftism" with any bourgeois capitalist who throws around some "anti-imperialist" platitudes, and thus in the eyes of syrians made "leftism" synonomus with the anything but leftist regime loyal baath and national-socialist parties. And you have the fucking nerve to fault some in the opposition for looking to the right? Why don't you look to yourself and the disastrous politics from your lot over the last 50 years first?

I don't see Assad as any sort of "leftist." But old news about how "highly heterogenous" the anti-Assad movement is is just so far behind the times as to be ridiculous.

All spontaneous mass movements, right, left and center, start out pretty heterogenous, and over time they consolidate into what they are. A year ago, the anti-Assad movement was very unclear in character, and could have gone in any direction, including to the left.

Now, it's been in existence for more than a year now, and is even running some Syrian cities, and it has consolidated into a Sunni sectarian pro-imperialist right wing movement. I think it's premature to be supporting Assad against it as such, he is a vile right wing dictator despite occasional "socialist" pretensions.

But despite the basically secular nature of the Assad regime, this has turned into simply a sectarian civil war between ethnic-religious groups, equally reactionary on both sides. Assad has killed more people, because he has more guns. The more guns the rebels get, the less that will continue to be true.

But if you have direct imperialist intervention as Obama is moving towards, then opposing imperialism, the basic and fundamental enemy of not just semi-colonial peoples like the Syrians, but of everyone, becomes what is decisive, and one would have to hold one's nose and support Syria, not Assad but Syria, against the imperialists and their puppets.

-M.H.-

[Salyut]

I'm loving this thread.

edit: Interesting to see the IMT take on the CPC. Yay Canada.