Happiness - a state of fierce delusional isolation

[Rafiq]

I want to open a discussion on... Happiness.

Now I don't want to discuss how we define "happiness", as I'll, for this thread, leave this definition as purely objective in regards to the conversation:


state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy.


We're always told that we need to do X to achieve happiness, we are told that although it may be impossible, the process in acheiving happiness is something we must all aim at. In other words, I'm questioning extreme Hedonism we see today.

Is happiness not inevitably boring? Uninteresting? Worthless? What's better, to constantly struggle and hold ambition for something, whether depression, hardship and suffering will be experienced along with way, or to live in a static state of affairs of being "happy", being "positive" and so on?

[Book O'Dead]

I want to open a discussion on... Happiness.

Now I don't want to discuss how we define "happiness", as I'll, for this thread, leave this definition as purely objective in regards to the conversation:


state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy.


We're always told that we need to do X to achieve happiness, we are told that although it may be impossible, the process in acheiving happiness is something we must all aim at. In other words, I'm questioning extreme Hedonism we see today.

Is happiness not inevitably boring? Uninteresting? Worthless? What's better, to constantly struggle and hold ambition for something, whether depression, hardship and suffering will be experienced along with way, or to live in a static state of affairs of being "happy", being "positive" and so on?

However much useful suffering and struggle may be to my creative mind, I'm constantly wishing I were as happy as a bottle fly atop a shit pile.

But hey, that's just me, okay?

[Revolution starts with U]

Why can't you be happy in struggle and ambition? For me happiness has become an acceptance and gratitude for what is, ie not being too attached to how I want it to be.
It doesn't mean sitting doing nothing. It means being wholly immersed in being, not doing.

Hedonistic happiness is superficial, that is why it seems such an illusion. One cannot find happiness in things and identities for these, as you say, create a static "happiness" in a world of constant change. Instead, one can only find lasting happiness in being. Then, even a moment of impulsive anger, when it rises, is but a funny joke you tell yourself.

[Lynx]

Ungrateful people have to work harder to achieve happiness, and that's the way it should be.

[Art Vandelay]

While I am probably not addressing what you intended people to comment on, Rafiq, I will toss in my two cents. For a few years of my life, I would describe myself as being unhappy and ironically it was the same thing which originally made me depressed that made me happy once again, ie: nihilism (absurdism if you will) and Marxism.

For those, like us, who attempt to make sense of the senseless degradation and cruelty we are confronted with; unhappiness seems a logical conclusion. For the most part, the world cannot be made sense of. We as humans, being imperfect beings, will always come to imperfect conclusions, such is our nature.

Originally this brought me not only tremendous unhappiness but sadness as well; what was the point of it all. I have also noticed that others that I know (personally) who get into leftist politics go through a period of intense despair and depression, if you will. But Marxism offers us a way out; a ray of hope in this dimly lit world.

So in a sense, to me, happiness has come with the realizations that, for one, I will never fully understand the world and we can only use the tools which we have at our disposal (Marxism, materialism) to form the best convictions we can about this twisted world; and, two, that one must find enjoyment out of the simple things in life and create small islands of contentment where one can.

I find solace in the fact that my life can be used in an attempt to better the lot of my fellow working men; albeit a small modest contribution. I like to have a coffee with a cigar and book, a walk when it is nice outside, creating music with my friends, etc. Although I intend to full well devote myself to a cause and no doubt will have hardships along the way, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't ever attempt to find some enjoyment out of life every now and again.

[Desperado]

You question happiness as a purpose, but still see it as possible to achieve meaning and worth in life. In which case, you're still fulfilled (or see the potential for fulfilment), no? That in my lexicon is happiness, though in your case it seems not to be, but that matters little.

Now the more serious problem I think is when you can't seem to see worth or purpose in anything, the nihilism mentioned above. When happiness seems pointless, but likewise despair and ambition and everything else. Which is difficult. I quite like Camus and how he talks about trying to live without appeal - to live whilst realising life's meaninglessness, and live all the better for it. I think he can be a bit self-contradictory perhaps - one might say he's put a purpose and meaning on life in doing that (whether that's a fair criticism or not I don't really know, I need to read and think some more). But to anyone facing this problem I'd highly recommend some absurdist or atheist existentialism. Not necessarily explicit: I remember reading Dostoevsky Notes from Underground and feeling a bit of clarity and a bit less loneliness in my situation (whether I resolved the tension or intensified it I don't know).

Or just ignore all the high brow thoughts for a bit and just follow your passions (fiery or nice and simple) like Zeitung mentions above. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. There's a time for musing but it can be a bit overwhelming. If I thought all day about this crap I think I'd end up more nauseas than Sartre could imagine.

[Art Vandelay]

You question happiness as a purpose, but still see it as possible to achieve meaning and worth in life. In which case, you're still fulfilled (or see the potential for fulfilment), no? That in my lexicon is happiness, though in your case it seems not to be, but that matters little.

Now the more serious problem I think is when you can't seem to see worth or purpose in anything, the nihilism mentioned above. When happiness seems pointless, but likewise despair and ambition and everything else. Which is difficult. I quite like Camus and how he talks about trying to live without appeal - to live whilst realising life's meaninglessness, and live all the better for it. I think he can be a bit self-contradictory perhaps - one might say he's put a purpose and meaning on life in doing that (whether that's a fair criticism or not I don't really know, I need to read and think some more). But to anyone facing this problem I'd highly recommend some absurdist or atheist existentialism. Not necessarily explicit: I remember reading Dostoevsky Notes from Underground and feeling a bit of clarity and a bit less loneliness in my situation (whether I resolved the tension or intensified it I don't know).

Or just ignore all the high brow thoughts for a bit and just follow your passions (fiery or nice and simple) like Zeitung mentions above. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. There's a time for musing but it can be a bit overwhelming. If I thought all day about this crap I think I'd end up more nauseas than Sartre could imagine.

Sadly soon after writing that (I was in a good mood) my bi-polar kicked in and I have been depressed all day. Thanks for the recommendation, I have been trying to pick a new book to start all day long and I do own (and have never read) notes from the underground; lets hope it helps.

[Desperado]

It's definitely intense, don't really know if it will help or not. Either way I feel like a cigar and a coffee now.

[Art Vandelay]

It's definitely intense, don't really know if it will help or not. Either way I feel like a cigar and a coffee now.

Lets both have one; its like peanut butter and jelly, just made for one another. :)

[Positivist]

One of my problems, which is fading, is actually a disbelief in happiness. I don't know what the cause of this is, and have previously diagnosed the cause as feelings if inadequacy or unworthiness though I can't say for certain that this is correct.

What my disbelief in happiness used to do, and still does at times, is undermines any pleanst feelings I come upon. Noe this includes contentment in struggle or anything of the sort, and if happiness is the opposite of what I felt, than it is absolutely worth pursuing.

Maybe I'll go into this more later, but generally acknowledging it seems to trigger it so I'm gonna move on for now.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Have you ever in your life been happy Rafiq, because I don't get the feeling you ever have been.

Living in any type of emotional state seems like it would be boring after a while, but that's not how we really work is it? Throughout my day I've felt happiness, irritation, pissed the fuck off, etc, etc,. We don't just stay in the same state of mind for long periods of time, every single day is filled with a variety of emotions. There is no such thing as everlasting happiness.

[Luís Henrique]

"Happiness" is the root and cause of all unhappiness.

Luís Henrique

[RedHammer]

Is happiness not inevitably boring? Uninteresting? Worthless? What's better, to constantly struggle and hold ambition for something, whether depression, hardship and suffering will be experienced along with way, or to live in a static state of affairs of being "happy", being "positive" and so on? While you raise valid points, to what extent are you willing to suffer in order to struggle? If fulfillment comes from struggle and ambition, should we, as radical leftists, hope that change never comes so that we will always have something to struggle against?

Struggle for the sake of struggle is futile.



For the most part, the world cannot be made sense of. We as humans, being imperfect beings, will always come to imperfect conclusions, such is our nature.

The idea of a perfect or imperfect human being is idealist in nature. There are only material conditions and class reactions. There is no imperfect human being because there is no such thing as "perfection" being a distinct, objective idea.


Originally this brought me not only tremendous unhappiness but sadness as well; what was the point of it all. I have also noticed that others that I know (personally) who get into leftist politics go through a period of intense despair and depression, if you will. But Marxism offers us a way out; a ray of hope in this dimly lit world.


The capitalist mode of production is a cause of extreme poverty, conflict, stagnation, and exploitation, to be sure. These things enhance unhappiness; but I do not believe that they dictate unhappiness. Happiness, to me, comes from social fulfillment. From good friends and comrades; from a sense of community and a sense of purpose, albeit invented purpose.

I sympathize, however. I often question the "point" of it all, too. The sad truth may well be that there is no point.



I find solace in the fact that my life can be used in an attempt to better the lot of my fellow working men; albeit a small modest contribution. I like to have a coffee with a cigar and book, a walk when it is nice outside, creating music with my friends, etc. Although I intend to full well devote myself to a cause and no doubt will have hardships along the way, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't ever attempt to find some enjoyment out of life every now and again.

A world of communism, free of class divide and exploitation, and with present and even abundant wealth, may not necessarily create happiness. But in that state, people will be freer than ever to fulfill themselves.

[Strannik]

Happiness is one of the emotional reactions people have under certain conditions. A state of constant happiness, independent of situation - yes, its a delusion. But so is constant anger and depression. Emotional reactions should be appropriate to situation, they are what motivates us to appropriate behaviour. Human societies remain successful as long as they remain adaptable. An individual who can't decide what to do with their limited lifetime and myriad of opportunities for self-actualization communism provides, will still be unhappy under communism. And its an appropriate reaction.

[Rafiq]

Have you ever in your life been happy Rafiq, because I don't get the feeling you ever have been.


Well, I really don't get the feeling that you have any knowledge of me, beyond what I post on this site, of which isn't necessarily a reflection of my personal life.

[Revolution starts with U]

A journey of a thousand miles happens one step a time. That's happiness. Realizing that right now is all you've ever had.

I think where people get a problem is in thinking happiness is all sunshine and daisies. Everybody realizes that is impossible to sustain; that kind of happiness is an impulsive emotion just like any other. Nor does everybody want to wear flowered skirts and sing around the campfire.
This is a simplistic view of happiness. Real happiness is when you realize you don't have to listen to your impulses. Dis-ease is an addiction, it creates an identity for us. Identities are but symbols, which can only represent but never be the thing they try to portray.
To overcome dis-ease one must dive into the depths of their being and kill their self. Realize your just a part of a process, grab the flow and ride it. :cool:

Stay happy my friends, even in your struggles :lol:

[cynicles]

I enjoy the odd bout of happiness, but I prefer frequent short experiences of satisfaction. Happiness never sticks with me but satisfaction seem more reasonable to obtain.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well, I really don't get the feeling that you have any knowledge of me, beyond what I post on this site, of which isn't necessarily a reflection of my personal life.

I'm sorry if I offended you. It was a joke concerning the cold-hearted nature of your posts here.

[Kenco Smooth]

Happiness is one of the emotional reactions people have under certain conditions. A state of constant happiness, independent of situation - yes, its a delusion. But so is constant anger and depression. Emotional reactions should be appropriate to situation, they are what motivates us to appropriate behaviour. Human societies remain successful as long as they remain adaptable. An individual who can't decide what to do with their limited lifetime and myriad of opportunities for self-actualization communism provides, will still be unhappy under communism. And its an appropriate reaction.

It's not entirely situational. As with most things which are related to personality positive or negative affect both have state and trait factors, the trait factor being relatively consistent across time and situations.

And in general I'd make the claim that happiness is better than not. The comparison of struggling geniuses with happy fools is a false one given that happier people tend to be more successful in creative and intellectual pursuits (not overly familiar with the research but pretty sure this has been shown to be a causal relation and not simply correlational).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

As someone who is 'only human', I am partial to hedonism sometimes. After a stressful week I might like a drink or two, or some weed or whatever, or to go out to a club and dance to shit music. But yeah, that's episodic happiness, happiness on a whim.

I don't see why you cannot be happy in struggle and ambition; I find the greatest happiness is sometimes in the means - the struggle of a work-in-progress - rather than merely the satisfaction of the ends. After all, if we were just sastisfied by the ends, the process would be lost and many good deeds that do not result in good ends (volunteer work, for example) would simply not get done.

[cyu]

Somewhat off-topic, but...

http://www.voxeu.org/article/gdp-and-life-satisfaction-new-evidence

Most of the variation of life satisfaction due to GDP is explained by the effect in countries with per capita GDP below $10,000 (PPP-adjusted). Countries with GDP per capita over $20,000 see a much less obvious link between GDP and happiness.

This corresponds broadly to the well-known Easterlin Paradox – that the link between life satisfaction and GDP is more or less flat in richer countries.

long-term GDP growth is certainly desirable among poorer countries, but is it a desirable feature among developed countries as well? the negative effect of high aspiration can be predicted by individuals who still choose options that may not seem to maximise happiness, but which are compatible with high-income aspirations.

individuals may still prefer to live in richer countries, even if this would result in a decreased level of life satisfaction.

[Remus Bleys]

Somewhat off-topic, but...
So its both off topic and a post in a year old thread.
Why didn't you just start a new one, huh?

[cyu]

Why didn't you just start a new one I like to keep stuff grouped together (the better stacked the deck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_stacking), the bigger the hammer against capitalists :thumbup: ) - for example, http://www.revleft.com/vb/capitalist-science-self-t172025/index.html is a collection of articles around a similar theme. http://www.revleft.com/vb/political-and-economic-t170970/index.html is collected in a similar way.

I was hoping to add this to a thread about the pro-capitalist assertions of "rationality" but since I didn't find a good one, thought I'd add it here instead.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I think it's worth while to specify "happiness" in terms of one's subjective experience, and its relation to the injunction by capital to, in Coca Cola's words, "Enjoy!"

Capital places certain demands on us, at least in the "developed" word where the "Post-'68 Spirit of Capital" reigns, to carry out certain emotional labour. To put a spin on an old Soviet saying, "We pretend to like working, and they pretend to like paying us."

This "happiness" of course, even when it is experienced subjectively ("I love my job!"
"My flat is perfect!" etc.), is profoundly ideological. That doesn't make it "fake", since, "ideology" relies precisely that distinction (wrestling is fake, but violent masculinity is real).

Of course, we can also imagine a "communist happiness", which, at the same time, has a traumatic (hyperbole on my part, maybe) character - where one is confronted with the ideological nature of their happiness-as-it-is, and makes a leap of faith toward what-happiness-could-be. This isn't simply the enjoyment of rioting or whatever subversive activity (though it is also certainly real!!!), the sort of CrimethInc. consumer happiness, but rather a "shift" in perspective entirely.

[Tenka]

I don't believe in happiness as a state of mind or whatever. That just seems absurd. Occasions, events can be happy, can lead to pleasure. A constant state of happiness in a human being seems to me a strenuously enforced self-delusion.

[bill]

I've thought about this a great deal. From my perspective it goes as follows:

Blissful ignorance: the giddy not knowing that you're unhappy.
Depression/anxiety: Knowing that you're unhappy and realizing there isn't anything you can do about it. (i.e. that hedonic life is meaningless)
True happiness: Not caring about your own happiness but acting out of love for others. (i.e. Man Under Socialism)

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think we can learn something from the ancient Greeks here, who differentiated "pleasure" from "happiness". Pleasure is what you get when you have good sex, drink a beer, do coke, get your nicotine fix, get a massage, watch a good movie or listen to a great symphony. The hedonist seeks pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Happiness is a more holistic state of being, of which pleasure is only a smaller part.

In that sense Tenka is right about pleasure - how could you have some sustained "pleasure" state? No pleasure lasts forever and you need to go on to the next one. However, there are people who are consistently content with their lives through some means or another. They may have moments of frustration or irritation, but they could be accurately described despite that as "happy people".

I think it also answers the concerns of Rafiq - no, living a life of docile pleasure is not appealing. However one could be happy participating in struggle and working in solidarity with others to change the world.

[Tenka]

For my part, contentment only exists in the knowledge that my species is a species for itself--i.e., under World Communism. In that way it shall be impossible in my lifetime. I find it hard to distinguish your happiness from a sum total of happy events and circumstances. Even if you are actively participating in a radical struggle you believe in wholeheartedly, you would not be doing this if you were not miserable on some level. And even love and lasting human relationships are fleeting in the grand scheme of things. Maybe I could be happy if I could stop looking at things in broader contexts, but alas--