A call-out to Trotskyists and others

[DaringMehring]

I haven't been on RevLeft for a little while because of a thing called organizing in real life. Come back and check out what's going on... and find what I can only call shameful by other posters representing themselves as "Trotskyists." I am talking about support of the reformist coalition of SYRIZA in Greece.

SYRIZA -- a RIGHT split from the KKE the main agent of the coalition, whose growth in support is from the disillusioned voters of social democratic PASOK.

Even worse, to support backing this coalition, posters have used or rather mis-used communist/Trotskyist ideas. For instance, claiming that it is foolish to support a program of REVOLUTION in Greece, because if it succeeded it would be "socialism in one country" and ultimately fail. This is a stupidity I cannot even imagine. "World revolution" is never about arguing against a revolution in any country -- it means the support of all revolutions in every country! "Socialism in one country" means putting the national interest of any country even one calling itself socialist, over the continuation of the world revolution in other countries.

To say Greeks shouldn't fight for revolutionary program in the name of "world revolution" is simply stupid.

What about KKE which at least proposes a revolutionary program (which it will never follow through on)? These revleft "Trotskyists" can only spit names -- "Stalinists."

But what was the most unforgiveable error of Stalinism? The "popular front," siding with the bourgeoisie in a left-center coalition supposedly directed against fascism (but in reality just a permanent orientation). Repeated in China and everywhere else to terrible effect. And what do these Trotskyists propose? The same criminal alliance.

Obviously they have no idea of Stalinism and they just use it as a cuss-word straight out of their western propaganda textbooks. In fact, they are caricatures of Trotskyists, using "world revolution" to argue against national revolutions (as Stalinists falsely and slanderously accuse Trotskyism of doing in general) and backing the Stalinist popular front.

Greek question is most important of the moment and if you can't agitate on clear class lines, for revolution, in this desperate and disintegrating country, you have no business calling yourself socialist. Revleft so-called Trotskyists, you should be ashamed.

[Book O'Dead]

I haven't been on RevLeft for a little while because of a thing called organizing in real life. Come back and check out what's going on... and find what I can only call shameful by other posters representing themselves as "Trotskyists." I am talking about support of the reformist coalition of SYRIZA in Greece.

SYRIZA -- a RIGHT split from the KKE the main agent of the coalition, whose growth in support is from the disillusioned voters of social democratic PASOK.

Even worse, to support backing this coalition, posters have used or rather mis-used communist/Trotskyist ideas. For instance, claiming that it is foolish to support a program of REVOLUTION in Greece, because if it succeeded it would be "socialism in one country" and ultimately fail. This is a stupidity I cannot even imagine. "World revolution" is never about arguing against a revolution in any country -- it means the support of all revolutions in every country! "Socialism in one country" means putting the national interest of any country even one calling itself socialist, over the continuation of the world revolution in other countries.

To say Greeks shouldn't fight for revolutionary program in the name of "world revolution" is simply stupid.

What about KKE which at least proposes a revolutionary program (which it will never follow through on)? These revleft "Trotskyists" can only spit names -- "Stalinists."

But what was the most unforgiveable error of Stalinism? The "popular front," siding with the bourgeoisie in a left-center coalition supposedly directed against fascism (but in reality just a permanent orientation). Repeated in China and everywhere else to terrible effect. And what do these Trotskyists propose? The same criminal alliance.

Obviously they have no idea of Stalinism and they just use it as a cuss-word straight out of their western propaganda textbooks. In fact, they are caricatures of Trotskyists, using "world revolution" to argue against national revolutions (as Stalinists falsely and slanderously accuse Trotskyism of doing in general) and backing the Stalinist popular front.

Greek question is most important of the moment and if you can't agitate on clear class lines, for revolution, in this desperate and disintegrating country, you have no business calling yourself socialist. Revleft so-called Trotskyists, you should be ashamed.


Man, a lot of people love splitters!

Some people, who call themselves Trotskyist like to indulge in that sort of behavior because somehow they've got it into their heads that that is the way Trotsky was; he was splitter.

When the reality about Leon Trotsky is that no man or woman in Russia in his time stood taller than him. His only 'fault' if we can call it that, was that he was Jew. It was suggested by Isaac Deutscher that Stalin may have had a hand in stirring anti-Semitic sentiments among the younger Bolsheviks during the time of most controversy between himself and Trotsky.

[Geiseric]

Wait so you support splitting from the EU instead of re-negotiating the debt? How is that going to work? BTW trotsky joined the bolsheviks after trying to reunite the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, which is the opposite of splitting.

[Clifford C Clavin]

There is no such thing as a Trotskyist. It has no meaning anymore. What exactly do Cliffites, Barnesites, Robertsonites and Northites have in common? Other than obsolescence?

SYRIZA is a bourgeois party no doubt. Sad to see the opportunists of all stripes fall behind it (check the post-Avakiam Maoites of Kasama too), but not unexpected. But how about KKE? You mean the guys who raised a militia-like force to protect the bourgeois parliament from throngs of young and working people a few months ago?

The establishment sucks. Red or not.

[Book O'Dead]

There is no such thing as a Trotskyist. It has no meaning anymore. What exactly do Cliffites, Barnesites, Robertsonites and Northites have in common? Other than obsolescence?

SYRIZA is a bourgeois party no doubt. Sad to see the opportunists of all stripes fall behind it (check the post-Avakiam Maoites of Kasama too), but not unexpected. But how about KKE? You mean the guys who raised a militia-like force to protect the bourgeois parliament from throngs of young and working people a few months ago?

The establishment sucks. Red or not.

Those throngs should leave trying to storm political buildings and focus their attention on what's closer to home: Their workplaces.

If those "throngs of young and working people" ever got it into their heads to take over their respective workplaces in a collective effort, there wouldn't be enough para-militias to stand in their way.

[DaringMehring]

Wait so you support splitting from the EU instead of re-negotiating the debt? How is that going to work? BTW trotsky joined the bolsheviks after trying to reunite the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, which is the opposite of splitting.

This guy would be asking Bolsheviks in 1917 -- so you support splitting from the Entente, how would that work? And what would the slogan be, "re-negotiate the troop levels?" Haha.

Are you really asking how a revolution would work? It's a revolution.

"Re-negotiate the debt?" what a line. Straight out of left-center capitalist management. Re-negotiate the terms of exploitation with the capitalist exploiters, within the framework of capitalism. Give me a break. No real revolutionary could tell any Greek to run to the bargaining table with their oppressors at this point in history, and be anything more than a sell-out.



There is no such thing as a Trotskyist. It has no meaning anymore. What exactly do Cliffites, Barnesites, Robertsonites and Northites have in common? Other than obsolescence?


I agree that tendencies have become more and more meaningless as sects drift farther apart.

However there are some core ideas of Trotskyism and whenever people falsely call themselves Trotskyists while betraying Trotsky's revolutionary tradition, they should be exposed.

For the record I support but am not a member of Lutte Ouvriere in France and it's international organization.



SYRIZA is a bourgeois party no doubt. Sad to see the opportunists of all stripes fall behind it (check the post-Avakiam Maoites of Kasama too), but not unexpected. But how about KKE? You mean the guys who raised a militia-like force to protect the bourgeois parliament from throngs of young and working people a few months ago?

The establishment sucks. Red or not.


I am not endorsing KKE but pointing out that at least they mouth a revolutionary program, have a base in working class, and are to the left of these so-called Trotskyists who endorse SYRIZA, like ISO who post SYRIZA propaganda without comment on their website, who salivate over the fact that they have some small group that is part of SYRIZA (congratulations on being part of such trash, I'm sure you'll "fight for your line within" -- and lose while at the same time working for the class enemy).

Of course KKE has betrayed Greek revolution several times and committed crimes against history. Still appears they are the only group in Greece capable and willing to agitate a revolutionary program.

Where are the real revolutionaries? The world needs a revolution in Greece and the Greeks need a revolution in Greece.

[Homo Songun]

When the reality about Leon Trotsky is that no man or woman in Russia in his time stood taller than him. His only 'fault' if we can call it that, was that he was Jew. It was suggested by Isaac Deutscher that Stalin may have had a hand in stirring anti-Semitic sentiments among the younger Bolsheviks during the time of most controversy between himself and Trotsky.

Actually, it was Trotsky who wasn't above pontificating about whether and to what degree Stalin's "asiatic" racial make-up was resonsible for his "shrewdness, craftiness and cruelty". I don't recall Stalin doing something like that.

[Book O'Dead]

Actually, it was Trotsky who wasn't above pontificating about whether and to what degree Stalin's "asiatic" racial make-up was resonsible for his "shrewdness, craftiness and cruelty". I don't recall Stalin doing something like that.

Yeah, but he did that only after he'd been hounded out of Europe by Stalin and his henchmen.

During his rise and consolidation of power Stalin did lots of things over which we can only speculate, true. But his modus operandi is well established and documented in Isaac Deutscher's magnificent political biography of Stalin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Deutscher

http://www.marxists.org/archive/deutscher/index.htm

[Homo Songun]

Yeah, but he did that only after he'd been hounded out of Europe by Stalin and his henchmen.

I'm sure that's the sort of thing George Zimmerman fans like to tell Trayvon henchmen, I mean supporters too.

[Book O'Dead]

I'm sure that's the sort of thing George Zimmerman fans like to tell Trayvon henchmen, I mean supporters too.

I don't know what one thing has to do with the other.

I happen to believe that Stalin was a tyrant and only tyrants use henchmen, or so I've been led to believe.

[Leftsolidarity]

Those throngs should leave trying to storm political buildings and focus their attention on what's closer to home: Their workplaces.

If those "throngs of young and working people" ever got it into their heads to take over their respective workplaces in a collective effort, there wouldn't be enough para-militias to stand in their way.

What the fuck?

So recently we've got you condemning Indian workers for rising up against capitalists, condemning the Greek workers for rising up against the capitalist government, and I know I read some other dribble recently. I'll be sure to add it if I remember.

Are you sure you're a revolutionary leftist?

Yes, damn those workers for trying to rise up against the bourgeoisie! :rolleyes:

[Comrade Samuel]

Regardless of all this tendency rabble isn't it true that SYRIZA is just another bourgeois party that split from a different bourgeois party and deserves no support from the revolutionary left? (key word there being "revolutionary") I have no idea why the trots are being called out in particular here considering SYRIZA has alot of support from multiple tendencies but I would really appriciate it if someone could tell me why they have it from any at all.

[Martin Blank]

I happen to believe that Stalin was a tyrant and only tyrants use henchmen, or so I've been led to believe.

No, supervillains use henchmen, too! :D

Seriously, though, I'm not too surprised that so much of the petty-bourgeois socialist left in Greece collapsed the way they did. All of their r-r-r-revolutionary rhetoric is just a cover for the fact that they cannot make a break with the bourgeois (and petty-bourgeois) order. It's a lot like what we saw in France several years back, when virtually all of the bourgeois and petty-bourgeois socialists rallied behind the Gaullist Chirac when the fascist Le Pen made it to the second round of the presidential election.

[Book O'Dead]

What the fuck?

So recently we've got you condemning Indian workers for rising up against capitalists, condemning the Greek workers for rising up against the capitalist government, and I know I read some other dribble recently. I'll be sure to add it if I remember.

Are you sure you're a revolutionary leftist?

Yes, damn those workers for trying to rise up against the bourgeoisie! :rolleyes:

They weren't "trying to rise up against the bourgeoisie" and no one here is damning them.

what I don't understand is why someone who claims to be in favor of revolution would take exception with the idea that workers are better served in their cause for emancipation if they aim their sights to more ambitious things: Instead of storming the useless palaces of government, instead of "shutting down" the workplaces, instead of burning their factories and killing its managers, they ought to take, hold and operate the industries of the land in the name of society.

What person of good faith can possibly be against that?

[A Marxist Historian]

Wait so you support splitting from the EU instead of re-negotiating the debt? How is that going to work? BTW trotsky joined the bolsheviks after trying to reunite the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, which is the opposite of splitting.

So Brotsky, then you support renegotiating the debt instead of splitting from the EU? And you call yourself a revolutionary?

Now, I've definitely had my disagreements with DM, but this was an excellent posting, couldn't have said anything in it better myself.

And he didn't just call for splitting from the EU, in fact he didn't even mention the EU! He called for socialism and revolution. Something that in fact you can't have if you are in the EU, the very EU constitution says that any country in the EU has to be a capitalist market economy.

DM clearly said he was against socialism in one country. But for you, I guess European unity is more important than socialism.

Trotskyists have always called for a Socialist United States of Europe. But how do you get that? For you, sounds like your idea is by--reforming the EU! To call that reformism is unkind to reformists, that's a total ridiculous pipe dream.

The way to get a Socialist United States of Europe is through a revolution in one country-Greece for example--which means leaving the EU, and that inspiring other European countries to do the same, leave the EU also, and unite with that country.

-M.H.-

[Permanent Revolutionary]

It's hard out here for a Trot....

Seriously, these "[insert noun here] for Trotskyists" threads are becoming more and more ludicrous.

Now, I call myself a Trotskyist, but I only have a meager knowledge of Greece's current financial/political situation.
But as I see it, if Greece were to leave or be expelled from the EU, it would have major negative consequences for its workers, but on the other hand it might help incite a revolutionary spirit, which could spread the other countries which are hard struck by austerity measures and bailouts for the rich.
Do I have a definite opinion on the matter? No.

[Lucretia]

It's hard out here for a Trot....

Seriously, these "[insert noun here] for Trotskyists" threads are becoming more and more ludicrous.

Now, I call myself a Trotskyist, but I only have a meager knowledge of Greece's current financial/political situation.
But as I see it, if Greece were to leave or be expelled from the EU, it would have major negative consequences for its workers, but on the other hand it might help incite a revolutionary spirit, which could spread the other countries which are hard struck by austerity measures and bailouts for the rich.
Do I have a definite opinion on the matter? No.

More often than not, it doesn't bode well for the contents of a thread if its title has the words "call out" in it.

[Lokomotive293]

Regardless of all this tendency rabble isn't it true that SYRIZA is just another bourgeois party that split from a different bourgeois party and deserves no support from the revolutionary left? (key word there being "revolutionary") I have no idea why the trots are being called out in particular here considering SYRIZA has alot of support from multiple tendencies but I would really appriciate it if someone could tell me why they have it from any at all.

SYRIZA is a coalition made up mainly of the reformist party SYNASPISMOS, and a couple of small Trotskyist and other leftist groups. They have completely abandoned revolution, and are spreading illusions about capitalism (changing things through a "government of left unity", "re-negotiating the debt" while staying in the EU,...) Unfortunately, a lot of people who call themselves "revolutionary leftists" have become reformists and opportunists themselves, and their ideas aren't that much different from those of SYRIZA.

[Art Vandelay]

SYRIZA is a coalition made up mainly of the reformist party SYNASPISMOS, and a couple of small Trotskyist and other leftist groups. They have completely abandoned revolution, and are spreading illusions about capitalism (changing things through a "government of left unity", "re-negotiating the debt" while staying in the EU,...) Unfortunately, a lot of people who call themselves "revolutionary leftists" have become reformists and opportunists themselves, and their ideas aren't that much different from those of SYRIZA.

Seriously? I mean I hate to go here, but the kke literally defended parliament from people attempting to storm it and this is this shit we here from M-L's; not to mention they had the fucking gull to call them anarcho-fascists provocateurs. But in any case this thread is a piece of shit (not to mention obvious flame bait) and needs to be closed. There is plenty of good discussion in the Greece sub forum about this situation among comrades attempting at having a productive discussion. Not this bullshit. An admin or mod needs to step in here.

[Lokomotive293]

Seriously? I mean I hate to go here, but the kke literally defended parliament from people attempting to storm it and this is this shit we here from M-L's; not to mention they had the fucking gull to call them anarcho-fascists provocateurs.

I don't know what that has to do with the thread, regardless of what anyone's opinion about this is. This is supposed to be about SYRIZA, not the KKE. And it's a fact that SYRIZA believes in participating in capitalist governments. I am also quite sure that the OP is a Trotskyist and said the same thing as I did in my post, only maybe a little more diplomatic. So, I don't know why you are making an attack on Marxist-Leninists out of that.


But in any case this thread is a piece of shit (not to mention obvious flame bait) and needs to be closed. There is plenty of good discussion in the Greece sub forum about this situation among comrades attempting at having a productive discussion. Not this bullshit. An admin or mod needs to step in here.

Maybe that would be best.

[Crux]

I haven't been on RevLeft for a little while because of a thing called organizing in real life. Come back and check out what's going on... and find what I can only call shameful by other posters representing themselves as "Trotskyists." I am talking about support of the reformist coalition of SYRIZA in Greece.

SYRIZA -- a RIGHT split from the KKE the main agent of the coalition, whose growth in support is from the disillusioned voters of social democratic PASOK.

Even worse, to support backing this coalition, posters have used or rather mis-used communist/Trotskyist ideas. For instance, claiming that it is foolish to support a program of REVOLUTION in Greece, because if it succeeded it would be "socialism in one country" and ultimately fail. This is a stupidity I cannot even imagine. "World revolution" is never about arguing against a revolution in any country -- it means the support of all revolutions in every country! "Socialism in one country" means putting the national interest of any country even one calling itself socialist, over the continuation of the world revolution in other countries.

To say Greeks shouldn't fight for revolutionary program in the name of "world revolution" is simply stupid.

What about KKE which at least proposes a revolutionary program (which it will never follow through on)? These revleft "Trotskyists" can only spit names -- "Stalinists."

But what was the most unforgiveable error of Stalinism? The "popular front," siding with the bourgeoisie in a left-center coalition supposedly directed against fascism (but in reality just a permanent orientation). Repeated in China and everywhere else to terrible effect. And what do these Trotskyists propose? The same criminal alliance.

Obviously they have no idea of Stalinism and they just use it as a cuss-word straight out of their western propaganda textbooks. In fact, they are caricatures of Trotskyists, using "world revolution" to argue against national revolutions (as Stalinists falsely and slanderously accuse Trotskyism of doing in general) and backing the Stalinist popular front.

Greek question is most important of the moment and if you can't agitate on clear class lines, for revolution, in this desperate and disintegrating country, you have no business calling yourself socialist. Revleft so-called Trotskyists, you should be ashamed.
Unless you can actually cite someone arguing what you are attacking here I call straw man. I mean I back SYRIZA and I can argue for it, but I rather you'd throw out your strawmen first.

[A Marxist Historian]

Seriously? I mean I hate to go here, but the kke literally defended parliament from people attempting to storm it and this is this shit we here from M-L's; not to mention they had the fucking gull to call them anarcho-fascists provocateurs. But in any case this thread is a piece of shit (not to mention obvious flame bait) and needs to be closed. There is plenty of good discussion in the Greece sub forum about this situation among comrades attempting at having a productive discussion. Not this bullshit. An admin or mod needs to step in here.

This thread is about SYRIZA not the KKE. That the KKE's role last fall at the parliament was dreadful is perfectly true and perfectly irrelevant to whether SYRIZA deserves any support.

And besides, last fall was last fall and now is now. The world does not stand still, especially not in a country with raging class struggle going on like Greece.

It would be quite reasonable to move this thread to the Greece forum, but NRZ's desire to censor it and close it demonstrates that Stalinist mentalities are not only the province of self-described "M-L"s.

-M.H.-

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Wait so you support splitting from the EU instead of re-negotiating the debt? How is that going to work? BTW trotsky joined the bolsheviks after trying to reunite the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, which is the opposite of splitting.
Well, lying prostate to the capitalists of the EU probably isn't what Trotsky had in mind. And he came around to Lenin's view of the Mensheviks. Trotskyists oppose the EU. And what about the question of the People's Fronts? This is a cardinal sin against Trotskyism/Leninism/Marxism.

[DaringMehring]

Unless you can actually cite someone arguing what you are attacking here I call straw man. I mean I back SYRIZA and I can argue for it, but I rather you'd throw out your strawmen first.

First of all I do not concede there are any straw men, if you check the Greece sub-forum you will see all of the things I mentioned.

But on your terms, by all means, tell me why you back SYRIZA which does not breathe the word socialism in a time when the capitalist system is imploding. You are with CWI "Trotskyists," correct? I'd also like to hear what the ISO "Trotskyists," Socialist Organizer, and others have to say.

I wonder if you know, you are joined by the CPUSA in supporting SYRIZA, and if that tells you anything. The CPUSA, which theoretically has a fraternal party in the KKE... instead has sided with you and others in supporting SYRIZA.

That is the political company you are in.

[A Marxist Historian]

Unless you can actually cite someone arguing what you are attacking here I call straw man. I mean I back SYRIZA and I can argue for it, but I rather you'd throw out your strawmen first.

Majakovskij, the world does not revolve around you.

There are huge numbers of self-identified "Trotskyists" who want to support SYRIZA in pretty much the kind of fashion DM skewered. You know that, we all know that. In fact, if you took a poll of everyone on this planet who has an opinion about SYRIZA and calls him or herself a "Trotskyist," probably a majority would fit DM's description.

Are you one of them? Well, if the shoe fits, wear it, and stop whining.

If you allege you are not, try to explain why not, don't beat around the bush.

-M.H.-

[DaringMehring]

But in any case this thread is a piece of shit (not to mention obvious flame bait) and needs to be closed. There is plenty of good discussion in the Greece sub forum about this situation among comrades attempting at having a productive discussion. Not this bullshit. An admin or mod needs to step in here.

This post should be awarded a prize.

Imagine -- heated polemics about social democratic fakers in a desperate revolutionary situation. "Flame bait!"

I wonder what Lenin would have been called by you and the polite police when he called Kautsky who pretended to be Marxist but had gone over to the reformist social democracy, "a lackey of the bourgeoisie," who wanted "a revolution without revolution," indistinguishable from "a counter-revolutionary bourgeois" and "like a blind puppy sniffing at random first in one direction and then in another."

I mean, he wasn't being "productive" in his discussion! Kautsky called himself a Marxist after all!

[Crux]

First of all I do not concede there are any straw men, if you check the Greece sub-forum you will see all of the things I mentioned.

But on your terms, by all means, tell me why you back SYRIZA which does not breathe the word socialism in a time when the capitalist system is imploding. You are with CWI "Trotskyists," correct? I'd also like to hear what the ISO "Trotskyists," Socialist Organizer, and others have to say.

I wonder if you know, you are joined by the CPUSA in supporting SYRIZA, and if that tells you anything. The CPUSA, which theoretically has a fraternal party in the KKE... instead has sided with you and others in supporting SYRIZA.

That is the political company you are in.
So guilt by association too re the CPUSA? Nice. So do you have any argument that isn't a logic fallacy?

Oh the why is very simple, the masses are rallying to SYRIZA, there is a radical potential there and also we've fought the SYRIZA/SYN-right before. And I think the masses are a relevant players here, rather then just pointing from the sidelines revolutionaries should try to intervene directly.

[Art Vandelay]

This thread is about SYRIZA not the KKE. That the KKE's role last fall at the parliament was dreadful is perfectly true and perfectly irrelevant to whether SYRIZA deserves any support.

And yet you support them?


And besides, last fall was last fall and now is now. The world does not stand still, especially not in a country with raging class struggle going on like Greece.

I haven't claimed any different?


It would be quite reasonable to move this thread to the Greece forum, but NRZ's desire to censor it and close it demonstrates that Stalinist mentalities are not only the province of self-described "M-L"s.

-M.H.-


Nice strawman MH.

[Art Vandelay]

This post should be awarded a prize.

Imagine -- heated polemics about social democratic fakers in a desperate revolutionary situation. "Flame bait!"

If you can't see how this thread was flame bait, then your an idiot; to parphrase another poster in this thread: it does not bode well for the thread when "call out" is in the thread title.


I wonder what Lenin would have been called by you and the polite police when he called Kautsky who pretended to be Marxist but had gone over to the reformist social democracy, "a lackey of the bourgeoisie," who wanted "a revolution without revolution," indistinguishable from "a counter-revolutionary bourgeois" and "like a blind puppy sniffing at random first in one direction and then in another."

Quoting Lenin, to a Leninist; I've read Lenin and also, I've read Kautsky, so did Lenin, and we were both highly influenced from him.


I mean, he wasn't being "productive" in his discussion! Kautsky called himself a Marxist after all!

Kautsky was a marxist; pre-1912.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I can see why people are suspicious of the motives and real revolutionary dedication of the leadership of SYRIZA. However, the simplistic arguments, naive reductions and logical fallacies being exhibited here don't back up such strong claims against Trots who are sympathetic to the party.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Okay, let's flesh it out a little. Syriza is a party that strives to administer capitalism. Or if you prefer, to broker a better deal with capitalism for the Greek workers. A party with this aim is useless to the working class of Greece, Europe, the world. Less than useless, really, because they foster a false consciousness in the Greek proletariat. Greece is in crisis, perhaps even a pre-revolutionary situation. What would Lenin or Trotsky do in this situation? Denounce Syriza for the reformist group that it is. CRITICAL support to the KKE is called for, to expose the difference between their words and deeds. No need to do that with Syriza, even their words are no good. Political formations that have had more going for them have gone down this road before, always with disastrous results for the working class.

[A Marxist Historian]

Okay, let's flesh it out a little. Syriza is a party that strives to administer capitalism. Or if you prefer, to broker a better deal with capitalism for the Greek workers. A party with this aim is useless to the working class of Greece, Europe, the world. Less than useless, really, because they foster a false consciousness in the Greek proletariat. Greece is in crisis, perhaps even a pre-revolutionary situation. What would Lenin or Trotsky do in this situation? Denounce Syriza for the reformist group that it is. CRITICAL support to the KKE is called for, to expose the difference between their words and deeds. No need to do that with Syriza, even their words are no good. Political formations that have had more going for them have gone down this road before, always with disastrous results for the working class.

Yes, and one more point. Lenin called for critical support to the British Labour Party way back when, the example always misused by those who want to vote for reformists?

Why?

Well, firstly, for the obvious reason, Labour had just adopted Clause Four, and was claiming that if elected, it would introduce socialism. Not an "anti-austerity coalition," but socialism. And most English workers took that claim for good coin.

And secondly, because the Labour Party really was the mass party of the British working class. Is SYRIZA? Hardly.

It has considerably fewer members than the KKE, and it doesn't have anything like the roots in the trade unions that the KKE has. And, despite SYRIZA's high vote totals, the KKE still calls larger rallies than SYRIZA is able to.

So SYRIZA's high vote totals, which all the pseudo-Trots and other opportunists (notably the "Marxist Leninists" of the KOE and various other Greek M-L's as well) are so excited about, is just an electoral flash in the pan. SYRIZA's support could easily collapse as quickly as it rose. And most certainly would, immediately, if it found itself running Greece.

The KKE is the historic mass party of the Greek proletariat, with very deep roots. Its militants are the ones that need to be won over to a truly revolutionary program, if there is to be a workers revolution in Greece.

Its crimes are not to be forgotten, not for a second. But a sectarian turning of one's back on its rank and file militants for the sake of the fool's gold of SYRIZA's ultimately meaningless ballot box performance would be sectarian and stupid, were it not, in the current circumstances, opportunist and stupid.

-M.H.-

[DaringMehring]

So guilt by association too re the CPUSA? Nice. So do you have any argument that isn't a logic fallacy?

Oh the why is very simple, the masses are rallying to SYRIZA, there is a radical potential there and also we've fought the SYRIZA/SYN-right before. And I think the masses are a relevant players here, rather then just pointing from the sidelines revolutionaries should try to intervene directly.


Ah the "we go where the potential-radical masses go" approach. Same reason ISO supported Ralph Nader in '00. Good for building memberships of pseudo-socialists, bad for exposing capitalism, bad for agitating for socialism.

Trotsky would follow what you would call "pointing from the sidelines."
For example:

Question: Isn’t the ideology of the workers a part of the objective factors?

Trotsky: For us as a small minority this whole thing is objective including the mood of the workers. But we must analyze and classify those elements of the objective situation which can be changed by our paper and those which cannot be changed. That is why we say that the program is adapted to the fundamental stable elements of the objective situation and the task is to adapt the mentality of the masses to those objective factors. To adapt the mentality is a pedagogical task. We must be patient, etc. The crisis of society is given as the base of our activity. The mentality is the political arena of our activity. We must change it. We must give a scientific explanation of society, and clearly explain it to the masses. That is the difference between Marxism and reformism.

The reformists have a good smell for what the audience wants as Norman Thomas – he gives them that. But that is not serious revolutionary activity. We must have the courage to be unpopular, to say “you are fools,” “you are stupid,” “they betray you,” and every once in a while with a scandal launch our ideas with passion. It is necessary to shake the worker from time to time, to explain, and then shake him again – that all belongs to the art of propaganda. But it must be scientific, not bent to the moods of the masses. We are the most realistic people because we reckon with facts which cannot be changed by the eloquence of Norman Thomas.


--- a clear program of socialist revolution is needed. Exposing the impossibility of capitalism recovering conditions for the working class is needed. Not "renegotiating the debt" with the capitalists and all those fairy tales. The most important thing people in the world need to know is that revolution is possible and necessary. Capitalists work to bury those facts constantly -- and the most valuable work socialist can do is the opposite.

"They betray you" -- applies pretty well to SYRIZA.

[Geiseric]

Ok I promise not to flame bait in this thread. The masses of greece have a consciousness that's built around the present assaults by the Troika, however those assaults being fought against and won by the greek working class is what has to be done, not seperating from the EU which is basically an economic sphere. how would the greek economy benefit in the long run? Basically to me KKE's demands are identical if say louisiana decided to split from the U.S. Sure the debt will be gone, but greece will without a doubt be invaded, and there aren't any independent workers political organs to replace the bourgeois greek government. This isn't a revolutionary crisis, it's definately pre revolutionary, however if we're looking at things as Leninists, KKE is far from being the vanguard of the revolutionary proletariat, just as far as sections of SYRIZA. The most political section of the working class need to definately seperate from bourgeois parties, but that hasn't happened yet since the austerity isn't inevitable.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The most political section of the working class need to definately seperate from bourgeois parties, but that hasn't happened yet since the austerity isn't inevitable.

That has already happened in Greece, though. For all the criticisms, neither the KKE nor SYRIZA are plain bourgeois parties, but bourgeois worker parties. However, as a non-Trot I simply back SYRIZA over the KKE's confused sectarianism, opportunist coalitionism, and cop control freakery.

[Crux]

Ah the "we go where the potential-radical masses go" approach. Same reason ISO supported Ralph Nader in '00. Good for building memberships of pseudo-socialists, bad for exposing capitalism, bad for agitating for socialism.

Trotsky would follow what you would call "pointing from the sidelines."
For example:

Question: Isn’t the ideology of the workers a part of the objective factors?

Trotsky: For us as a small minority this whole thing is objective including the mood of the workers. But we must analyze and classify those elements of the objective situation which can be changed by our paper and those which cannot be changed. That is why we say that the program is adapted to the fundamental stable elements of the objective situation and the task is to adapt the mentality of the masses to those objective factors. To adapt the mentality is a pedagogical task. We must be patient, etc. The crisis of society is given as the base of our activity. The mentality is the political arena of our activity. We must change it. We must give a scientific explanation of society, and clearly explain it to the masses. That is the difference between Marxism and reformism.

The reformists have a good smell for what the audience wants as Norman Thomas – he gives them that. But that is not serious revolutionary activity. We must have the courage to be unpopular, to say “you are fools,” “you are stupid,” “they betray you,” and every once in a while with a scandal launch our ideas with passion. It is necessary to shake the worker from time to time, to explain, and then shake him again – that all belongs to the art of propaganda. But it must be scientific, not bent to the moods of the masses. We are the most realistic people because we reckon with facts which cannot be changed by the eloquence of Norman Thomas.


--- a clear program of socialist revolution is needed. Exposing the impossibility of capitalism recovering conditions for the working class is needed. Not "renegotiating the debt" with the capitalists and all those fairy tales. The most important thing people in the world need to know is that revolution is possible and necessary. Capitalists work to bury those facts constantly -- and the most valuable work socialist can do is the opposite.

"They betray you" -- applies pretty well to SYRIZA.
Which is why of course the american Trotskyists never associated in any way shape or form with the SP of America. Oh wait, they joined the Norman Thomas SP. Your quote does not make the argument you think it makes.

[Lucretia]

Yes, and one more point. Lenin called for critical support to the British Labour Party way back when, the example always misused by those who want to vote for reformists?

Why?

Well, firstly, for the obvious reason, Labour had just adopted Clause Four, and was claiming that if elected, it would introduce socialism. Not an "anti-austerity coalition," but socialism. And most English workers took that claim for good coin.

And secondly, because the Labour Party really was the mass party of the British working class. Is SYRIZA? Hardly.

It has considerably fewer members than the KKE, and it doesn't have anything like the roots in the trade unions that the KKE has. And, despite SYRIZA's high vote totals, the KKE still calls larger rallies than SYRIZA is able to.

So SYRIZA's high vote totals, which all the pseudo-Trots and other opportunists (notably the "Marxist Leninists" of the KOE and various other Greek M-L's as well) are so excited about, is just an electoral flash in the pan. SYRIZA's support could easily collapse as quickly as it rose. And most certainly would, immediately, if it found itself running Greece.

The KKE is the historic mass party of the Greek proletariat, with very deep roots. Its militants are the ones that need to be won over to a truly revolutionary program, if there is to be a workers revolution in Greece.

Its crimes are not to be forgotten, not for a second. But a sectarian turning of one's back on its rank and file militants for the sake of the fool's gold of SYRIZA's ultimately meaningless ballot box performance would be sectarian and stupid, were it not, in the current circumstances, opportunist and stupid.

-M.H.-

It is also worth noting that Lenin's critical support of the British LP was due to the fact that, at the time, the LP was an independent working-class party, even if it wasn't explicitly revolutionary. In other words, it had not yet morphed into the petite bourgeois party it has become.

[Delenda Carthago]

That has already happened in Greece, though. For all the criticisms, neither the KKE nor SYRIZA are plain bourgeois parties, but bourgeois worker parties. However, as a non-Trot I simply back SYRIZA over the KKE's confused sectarianism, opportunist coalitionism, and cop control freakery.
Seriously, coming from a member of DieLinke, I take pride on this post.

http://stratoniki.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/kke.jpg

[Crux]

Seriously, coming from a member of DieLinke, I take pride on this post.

http://stratoniki.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/kke.jpg
DNZ is not a member of Die Linke (nor any other organization a far as I know), nor is one-liner picture posts encouraged on this forum.

[Delenda Carthago]

DNZ is not a member of Die Linke (nor any other organization a far as I know), nor is one-liner picture posts encouraged on this forum.
He is a DieLinke supporter, which is good enough, and how about one liner and a .jpeg?

[Geiseric]

Anyways nobodys really argued anything here. Untill soviets form, there can't be a revolution. before the working class starts forming its own state organs, any call for revolution seems futile. KKE hasn't contributed to this, nor has SYRIZA, although SYRIZA has alot of mass support, and that support needs to go somewhere.

[Tim Finnegan]

Like any of this electoral bullshit actually matters.

[Grenzer]

It seems to matter quite a lot, since that is the only thing most people give a shit about. Elections are where bourgeois democracy derives its legitimacy from the perspective of ordinary workers. Of course it's more convenient to ignore that and remain an insignificant sect.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Working to discredit bourgeois elections is more important than winning them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Working to discredit bourgeois elections is more important than winning them.

Yes, but abstention doesn't discredit such as a measure of political support at all.

[A Marxist Historian]

Ok I promise not to flame bait in this thread. The masses of greece have a consciousness that's built around the present assaults by the Troika, however those assaults being fought against and won by the greek working class is what has to be done, not seperating from the EU which is basically an economic sphere. how would the greek economy benefit in the long run? Basically to me KKE's demands are identical if say louisiana decided to split from the U.S. Sure the debt will be gone, but greece will without a doubt be invaded, and there aren't any independent workers political organs to replace the bourgeois greek government. This isn't a revolutionary crisis, it's definately pre revolutionary, however if we're looking at things as Leninists, KKE is far from being the vanguard of the revolutionary proletariat, just as far as sections of SYRIZA. The most political section of the working class need to definately seperate from bourgeois parties, but that hasn't happened yet since the austerity isn't inevitable.

You think the EU is the equivalent of the USA? Far, far from it. Greece is an independent country, that merely has economic arrangements with the EU. Separate government, separate army, separate state. For the EU to turn into a superstate would require exactly what it required for the USA--a war and/or a revolution, in the case of the USA both. Seems like a revolution and overthrowing the state for a workers state is a much better idea than doing so to unify Europe on a capitalist basis.

Which was in fact done--by Adolph Hitler. And indeed the EU at this point is a softcore Fourth Reich, dominated by Germany.

Greece "without doubt" will be invaded? In violation of all the rules of international this, that and the other thing? Certainly it's possible, but would shock all Europe, and there would be damn near as much resistance to this by the German working class as the Greek. No Western European country has invaded another since--well, since Hitler.

But even if the Germans etc. could indeed send the Wehrmacht (pardon me, Bundeswehr) in to subjugate Greece, just how do you think this could possibly be avoided by just trying to "fight austerity" within the EU? As long as you have a common currency and a capitalist framework, the Greek ruling class could not put an end to austerity even if it wanted to. The money would abruptly run out, Greece would go belly up, and checks for pensions and wages and whatnot would bounce.

Within the EU and within capitalism, austerity for Greece is inevitable. The only question is exactly how much. Claiming to run on an "anti austerity" platform as SYRIZA has is just throwing dust in the eyes of the working class. In office, they'd end up implementing pretty much the same austerity measures as the ND--not because they'd want to, but because they'd have no choice.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Which is why of course the american Trotskyists never associated in any way shape or form with the SP of America. Oh wait, they joined the Norman Thomas SP. Your quote does not make the argument you think it makes.

When did the American Trotskyists join the SP? When:

1) The right wing had split out; and

2) When the American Socialist Party, at its congress in 1934, added to its platform, quote, "the dictatorship of the proletariat," end quote.

I assure you, if SYRIZA ran in this election calling for the dictatorship of the proletariat, I for one would have a very different attitude to it.

Just as I would have a very different attitude to pigs if they had wings and flew.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Anyways nobodys really argued anything here. Untill soviets form, there can't be a revolution. before the working class starts forming its own state organs, any call for revolution seems futile. KKE hasn't contributed to this, nor has SYRIZA, although SYRIZA has alot of mass support, and that support needs to go somewhere.

Please. Except maybe for the anarchists, nobody is calling for a revolution in Greece next week. Obviously, as long as most Greek workers are still supporting a party as reformist as SYRIZA, revolution is not going to happen.

This would be a great time to start forming workers councils though. By all reports, the ground is ready for that.

And workers militias. The Golden Dawn menace is the perfect excuse. They can start as mass self-defense united front groups vs. Golden Dawn, and as they acquire weapons and drill...

Also a good time for some folks to start trying to organize among the soldiers. Greece has one of the larger armies in Europe, and some rank and file soldiers can't be happy about what is being done to their civilian brothers and sisters...

But first, you need a revolutionary party. The Greek Spartacists have apparently made a splash with their unique call, as Trotskyists, to give critical support to the KKE, and I am hoping this might allow them to do some serious recruiting and turn themselves into a real organization, that could be a pole for revolutionary regroupment for the most serious forces in the vast Greek left wing alphabet soup.

-M.H.-

[Die Neue Zeit]

And workers militias. The Golden Dawn menace is the perfect excuse. They can start as mass self-defense united front groups vs. Golden Dawn, and as they acquire weapons and drill...

We should discuss workers militias some more, you and I.

[Tim Finnegan]

It seems to matter quite a lot, since that is the only thing most people give a shit about. Elections are where bourgeois democracy derives its legitimacy from the perspective of ordinary workers.
Surely that's an argument against participation?


Of course it's more convenient to ignore that and remain an insignificant sect.
Foregone conclusion is foregone.

[Crux]

When did the American Trotskyists join the SP? When:

1) The right wing had split out; and

2) When the American Socialist Party, at its congress in 1934, added to its platform, quote, "the dictatorship of the proletariat," end quote.

I assure you, if SYRIZA ran in this election calling for the dictatorship of the proletariat, I for one would have a very different attitude to it.

Just as I would have a very different attitude to pigs if they had wings and flew.

-M.H.-
Are you saying Sparts base their attitudes on actual existing conditions? I have yet to see that happening.

And yet you miss the point I think. Did the american trotskyists support Norman Thomas? Well, obviously not but yet they actually joined the SP.
So then why should anyone expressing any kind of support for SYRIZA be attacked as if they and the SYRIZA-center around Tsipras hold the exact same positions? Did James P. Cannon and Norman Thomas? No, of course not.

Actually the right wing, although sadly not all of it, has split from SYRIZA. They're called DIMAR or Democratic Left. You might have heard of them.

Uh, the swedish Social Democrats to this day have references to marxism in their party program. Again, as I said before, I think what is crucial here is the participation of the masses in SYRIZA. And as marxist we should try to intervene, rather than raising the "Don't vote SYRIZA, vote KKE!" slogan (whereas Xekinima has given critical support for a KKE vote for years) which is almost beyond parody, much like KKE's desperate targeting of SYRIZA and it's supporters as the "main enemy".

[A Marxist Historian]

Are you saying Sparts base their attitudes on actual existing conditions? I have yet to see that happening.

And yet you miss the point I think. Did the american trotskyists support Norman Thomas? Well, obviously not but yet they actually joined the SP.
So then why should anyone expressing any kind of support for SYRIZA be attacked as if they and the SYRIZA-center around Tsipras hold the exact same positions? Did James P. Cannon and Norman Thomas? No, of course not.

Actually the right wing, although sadly not all of it, has split from SYRIZA. They're called DIMAR or Democratic Left. You might have heard of them.

Uh, the swedish Social Democrats to this day have references to marxism in their party program. Again, as I said before, I think what is crucial here is the participation of the masses in SYRIZA. And as marxist we should try to intervene, rather than raising the "Don't vote SYRIZA, vote KKE!" slogan (whereas Xekinima has given critical support for a KKE vote for years) which is almost beyond parody, much like KKE's desperate targeting of SYRIZA and it's supporters as the "main enemy".

The extreme right wing of SYRIZA split out--and now are in the right wing coalition government! There weren't too many SP'ers in the '30s who went Republican! The current "right wing" of SYRIZA, SYNASPISMOS, is 85% or the organization. If they all walked out, I'd have a very different attitude to what would be left of SYRIZA--but then SYRIZA would be dead as a doornail and probably collapse rapidly. It'd just be a Greek equivalent of one of those British left coalitions that pop up and collapse every few years, usually seriously damaging all participants in the process.

If you can't tell the difference between "references to marxism" in the program of your Swedish Social Democracy and calling for the dictatorship of the proletariat--that's because in the last analysis you're not a revolutionary really, but just a left Swedish Social Democrat.

And how do the masses "participate" in SYIZA? By wandering into the Greek equivalent of voting booths and pushing a button or punching a hole in a ballot or whatever. That you see this as "mass participation" shows that you, unlike the Spartacists, really have no grasp of "actual existing conditions" in the class struggle, but just look at vote totals like any other parliamentary reformist.

Lastly, if you really want to draw the analogy between Trotskyist tactics in the '30s and now, in fact the Spartacist critical support to the KKE is really quite analogous to Trotsky's advocacy of entering the Socialist Parties in the 1930s.

Very like the Socialist Parties in many countries in the '30s, the KKE, a party with a long history of treachery and betrayal, has taken a big turn to the left under the influence of class struggle and pressure from much of its working class base. Even the KKE supporters who voted SYRIZA did so more in the faint hope that a SYRIZA government might lessen austerity a bit for themselves personally than out of a desire to leave the KKE for SYRIZA.

Now, the Greek Spartacists are not advocating entry into the KKE, for the good and obvious reason that the KKE firstly has no internal democracy and secondly is not terribly fond of Trotsky and Trotskyists, to say the least. But I would think that they would urge workers listening to them to join the PAME union federation rather than the ones ND and PASOK (with help from SYRIZA bureaucrats) misrule (if possible without breaking up trade union unity at the factory level).

But the basic principle is the same.

-M.H.-

[Crux]

The extreme right wing of SYRIZA split out--and now are in the right wing coalition government! There weren't too many SP'ers in the '30s who went Republican! The current "right wing" of SYRIZA, SYNASPISMOS, is 85% or the organization. If they all walked out, I'd have a very different attitude to what would be left of SYRIZA--but then SYRIZA would be dead as a doornail and probably collapse rapidly. It'd just be a Greek equivalent of one of those British left coalitions that pop up and collapse every few years, usually seriously damaging all participants in the process.
Well, I suppose I have a less one-eyed view of SYN, it's tendencies and supporters than you do. SYN contain both the remnants of the right as well as the center (even center-left too).


If you can't tell the difference between "references to marxism" in the program of your Swedish Social Democracy and calling for the dictatorship of the proletariat--that's because in the last analysis you're not a revolutionary really, but just a left Swedish Social Democrat.
And again you fail to understand my point. Which is probably why you think I am a left Swedish Social Democrat. I find it hilarious. You go on thinking that, comrade.


And how do the masses "participate" in SYIZA? By wandering into the Greek equivalent of voting booths and pushing a button or punching a hole in a ballot or whatever. That you see this as "mass participation" shows that you, unlike the Spartacists, really have no grasp of "actual existing conditions" in the class struggle, but just look at vote totals like any other parliamentary reformist.
Not "just" vote totals, comrade, but a very real shift in greek society particularly among the youth and the working class. I would think your new spartacist grouping to be about as stillborn as the other spart groups.


Lastly, if you really want to draw the analogy between Trotskyist tactics in the '30s and now, in fact the Spartacist critical support to the KKE is really quite analogous to Trotsky's advocacy of entering the Socialist Parties in the 1930s.

Very like the Socialist Parties in many countries in the '30s, the KKE, a party with a long history of treachery and betrayal, has taken a big turn to the left under the influence of class struggle and pressure from much of its working class base. Even the KKE supporters who voted SYRIZA did so more in the faint hope that a SYRIZA government might lessen austerity a bit for themselves personally than out of a desire to leave the KKE for SYRIZA.

Now, the Greek Spartacists are not advocating entry into the KKE, for the good and obvious reason that the KKE firstly has no internal democracy and secondly is not terribly fond of Trotsky and Trotskyists, to say the least. But I would think that they would urge workers listening to them to join the PAME union federation rather than the ones ND and PASOK (with help from SYRIZA bureaucrats) misrule (if possible without breaking up trade union unity at the factory level).

But the basic principle is the same.

-M.H.-
While I have yet to see any real left turn from the KKE, let me again remind you that we gave critical support for the KKE long before the greek spartacists suddenly appeared in may or whatever.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Comrade Majakovskij, the problem with your take on the events in Greece is that you have a linear view -- if the Greeks do make a revolution now, they will be facing the armed might of the rest of the EU. Well, perhaps, but you can't predict what the effect of a Greek revolution would have -- It would have been similar to arguing against the Russian Revolution because they faced military intervention. In fact, it would mean that you would almost always argue against revolution anywhere but nations with large populations and powerful armed forces. There is always the risk of being crushed from outside -- but there are ways to fight that too, that are not only military. And of course, following a successful proletarian revolution, nearly everything changes.

[Crux]

Where have I argued against revolution? Don't conflate my views with that of the SYN right.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Comrade Majakovskij, the problem with your take on the events in Greece is that you have a linear view -- if the Greeks do make a revolution now, they will be facing the armed might of the rest of the EU. Well, perhaps, but you can't predict what the effect of a Greek revolution would have -- It would have been similar to arguing against the Russian Revolution because they faced military intervention. In fact, it would mean that you would almost always argue against revolution anywhere but nations with large populations and powerful armed forces. There is always the risk of being crushed from outside -- but there are ways to fight that too, that are not only military. And of course, following a successful proletarian revolution, nearly everything changes.

There's a difference between arguing for a genuine proletarian revolution by dissuading the more organised, conscious, self-anointed leaders of the workers' movement from orchestrating a premature grab of state power, and mistakenly conflating supporting the latter for a genuine proletarian revolution.

[Geiseric]

KKE is calling for leaving the EU, plain and simple, which makes to me no sense because its economy is intertwined with europe, which is where my louisiana analogy came from, not so much of a question of who rules greece (Merkel & 4th Reich) but basically they're saying leave the EU, and that will lead to socialism, which makes as much sense as somebody saying hey louisianans, lets leave the U.S. and form socialism! But the austerity crisis isn't a revolutionary crisis, but it's a factor leading up to one, a battle that if handled correctly and non ultra left, will show the italian, irish, and spanish working class what power they actually have. The decrees handed from Troika are basically the same that's happened in Compton or Oakland since the 1970s, in the midst of no working class opponents, but i'd bet a general strike will happen once the new terms from SYRIZA are denied by the Troika, once the new elections place SYRIZA as the majority party in the midst of ND's failure.

[DaringMehring]

So "Broody Guthrie" of "4th International" denies a revolution is possible because Greeks haven't already set up Soviets (as if anyone can predict what the revolution of the future will have as its preconditions). "Majakovskiy" claims he believes in revolution unlike the "SYN right" of the party he supports. PS both support the same party SYRIZA.

However whether or not a revolution is possible, Marxists must advance the revolutionary program in a period of capitalist disaster. In the quote I posted which no one addressed Trotsky says that.


The crisis of society is given as the base of our activity. The mentality is the political arena of our activity. We must change it. We must give a scientific explanation of society, and clearly explain it to the masses. That is the difference between Marxism and reformism.

In the period of crisis the mentality of the working class is the political arena of the Marxist's activity. The Marxist does not adapt to it he/she "must change it" by explaining why socialist revolution is necessary --- "that is the difference between Marxism and reformism." Reformists adapt themselves to the mentality of the masses and avoid the truth of Marxist analysis of the need for proletarian revolution -- like SYRIZA. Marxists explain the need for proletarian revolution, like the "sideline screamers" as described by some SYRIZA booster earlier, a category which would no doubt include the Bolsheviks.

Trotsky repeats: We must have the courage to be unpopular... it must be scientific, not bent to the moods of the masses. We are the most realistic people because we reckon with facts which cannot be changed..." and just in case you don't know what he means, he says we can only have success when the masses are revolutionary: "If we win immediate success we swim with the current of the masses and that current is the revolution"

All of that is from the previous post's quote. When Trotsky says we win immediate success when the current of the masses is revolution... he is similarly saying we do not win immediate success when the masses are not revolutionary... because our message is revolution. If we do win "immediate success" when the masses are not revolutionary, then we are not Marxists or Trotskyists. That is what Trotsky says.

And still some so-called Trotskyists want to hail the rise of SYRIZA which in a period of crisis does not advance a revolutionary program.

I cannot believe I see so many self-proclaimed revolutionaries who want to tell people why a revolution is impossible, why the time is not right for it, and so on -- while capitalism which is completely historically obsolete and destructive crumbles around us. The objective circumstances of revolution exist and it is only a matter of educating and agitating... something that SYRIZA and other non-revolutionaries actively work against.

[Crux]

So "Broody Guthrie" of "4th International" denies a revolution is possible because Greeks haven't already set up Soviets (as if anyone can predict what the revolution of the future will have as its preconditions). "Majakovskiy" claims he believes in revolution unlike the "SYN right" of the party he supports. PS both support the same party SYRIZA.

However whether or not a revolution is possible, Marxists must advance the revolutionary program in a period of capitalist disaster. In the quote I posted which no one addressed Trotsky says that.



In the period of crisis the mentality of the working class is the political arena of the Marxist's activity. The Marxist does not adapt to it he/she "must change it" by explaining why socialist revolution is necessary --- "that is the difference between Marxism and reformism." Reformists adapt themselves to the mentality of the masses and avoid the truth of Marxist analysis of the need for proletarian revolution -- like SYRIZA. Marxists explain the need for proletarian revolution, like the "sideline screamers" as described by some SYRIZA booster earlier, a category which would no doubt include the Bolsheviks.

Trotsky repeats: We must have the courage to be unpopular... it must be scientific, not bent to the moods of the masses. We are the most realistic people because we reckon with facts which cannot be changed..." and just in case you don't know what he means, he says we can only have success when the masses are revolutionary: "If we win immediate success we swim with the current of the masses and that current is the revolution"

All of that is from the previous post's quote. When Trotsky says we win immediate success when the current of the masses is revolution... he is similarly saying we do not win immediate success when the masses are not revolutionary... because our message is revolution. If we do win "immediate success" when the masses are not revolutionary, then we are not Marxists or Trotskyists. That is what Trotsky says.

And still some so-called Trotskyists want to hail the rise of SYRIZA which in a period of crisis does not advance a revolutionary program.

I cannot believe I see so many self-proclaimed revolutionaries who want to tell people why a revolution is impossible, why the time is not right for it, and so on -- while capitalism which is completely historically obsolete and destructive crumbles around us. The objective circumstances of revolution exist and it is only a matter of educating and agitating... something that SYRIZA and other non-revolutionaries actively work against.
Tell me when you're done playing with your bullshit strawmen and we might have a conversation. Did you miss the part where I countered your quote in context? I guess you just read what you want to read.:rolleyes: Also I and Broodie Guthrie are not the same person, he can answer himself, but I have to say unlike you he is actually a member of a trotskyist organization (Socialist Organizer). Because I assume you haven't joined up with The Spark (if they're still around)?

[A Marxist Historian]

There's a difference between arguing for a genuine proletarian revolution by dissuading the more organised, conscious, self-anointed leaders of the workers' movement from orchestrating a premature grab of state power, and mistakenly conflating supporting the latter for a genuine proletarian revolution.

Er, just who is arguing for "orchestrating a premature grab for state power" in Greece? I don't even think you'd find many anarchists up for that. Maybe one or two here on Revleft, but I think actual Greek anarchists know better than that!

Calling that a straw man is an insult to innocent strawmen everywhere.

-M.H.-

[DaringMehring]

I guess you just read what you want to read.:rolleyes: Also I and Broodie Guthrie are not the same person, he can answer himself,


True. He denies the revolution using all kind of ad hoc reasoning I doubt his organization even supports. "Greece can't leave the EU it would wreck their economy" (the same line as the capitalists trying to scare the Greek workers into submission), "there can't be a revolution if Soviets aren't set up first" (probably false and also no reason to support a party that does not agitate a revolutionary program).

You at least say you support revolution, and you don't misspell the name of the city you're from.


Tell me when you're done playing with your bullshit strawmen and we might have a conversation. Did you miss the part where I countered your quote in context?


Your counter as far as I can tell is "well the SWP in Trotsky's time did enter the SP for a period." From this, you apparently conclude all entryism is justified particularly in SYRIZA.

Is what is happening with SYRIZA the same thing as Trotsky's SWP did? SWP did "raiding" entryism where they went in specifically to rip the thing apart and steal its members, and they were in and out quickly. I do not see that with say, DEA, the ISO's group in SYRIZA. For them SYRIZA is a permanent coalition and their objective is to try to some how win a majority within the coalition to their views. That reminds me of CWI/IMT's "Militant" tendency in Labor Party in the UK which was also a permanent arrangement.

That route is a historical failure and does not have similarity with what Trotsky advocated. It has more in common with the "popular front" of the Stalinists, who are all about coalescing with bourgeois parties and trying to "win over" the masses to their mealy social-democratic line from within.

In no ways does what Trotsky's SWP did mean the content of the quote I provided is false -- Trotsky always agitated the revolutionary program, during the capitalist crisis. The SP particularly the youth wing was much more militant than SYRIZA, and even then the entryists maintained their revolutionary agitation and precisely on that basis they quickly cannibalized the militant members of the SP and got out. SYRIZA is all about winning elections on a social democratic platform making impossible promises about renegotiating debts and austerity.

Someone in ISO explained it to me that while he had to admit the promises were impossible, it would be some kind of educational experience to the masses to go through with trying them and failing. So while Trotsky always stressed giving real facts even if unpleasant and agitating revolution, this person was willing to deal self-acknowledged lies while not agitating revolution. That is Stalinist popular frontism, and Stalinist-Menshevik stagism all wrapped in social democratic revisionism.

Once again -- no surprise the CPUSA also supports SYRIZA.



but I have to say unlike you he is actually a member of a trotskyist organization (Socialist Organizer). Because I assume you haven't joined up with The Spark (if they're still around)?

The Spark is small in the USA. France is their power base. I am loyal to that organization but I am not a member. They are a proper Leninist organization where to be a member means a significant investment of time and with life right now I can not make that. Also, it would take lots more intensive study on my part before I could say things as an official member of that organization. So I am just a supporter. But so what?