What to do with the anti-social, selfish and ignorant?

[Clifford C Clavin]

I am a proponent and a partisan. I believe in the capabilities for fundamental social change. My problem is that while I have a general idea of how the economic and political transformation can and must take place, I have no idea how changes will come about in people themselves when it comes to their abhorrent behaviors.

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.

Sure you can make suggestions to these people. But the fact that they are adults means they have already heard it all. It's not simply that no one told them it's a bad idea to do these things, it's that they simply do not care about anyone other than themselves. They can't see past their own noses.

I'd like to write this all off to the dehumanizing effects of capitalism, but I simply can't.

Sure, you can say that people throw garbage on the street because they feel no ownership of it. Capitalism right? By why is it common to do this is in capitalist America, Haiti or China, but not in capitalist Norway, Japan or Canada?

After all, aren't there also people, not necessarily opposed to capitalism, who are decent and considerate? Who volunteer, help people out, hold open doors for people, give their seats to the elderly and the pregnant, return money and lost items they find?

I just don't how consideration can prevail over inconsideration, since considerate people are less likely to be pushy or enforce anything, while the inconsiderate practice a sort of de facto dictatorship of rudeness over everyone.

Can someone give me some ideas? This is an area where I am really shaky.

[hatzel]

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this.

The vast majority of these things I literally couldn't care less about. Seriously no amount of torture could force me to give a fuck about people on the train talking too loud for your delicate little ears. I suggest not doing anything at all about them and maybe doing something about yourself by maybe not being such an oversensitive piece of work. First step to socialism, baby! :thumbup:

[Clifford C Clavin]

Sorry, but there is a thing called consideration. Do unto others as you want done unto you.

You should enjoy absolute freedom, but that freedom should stop where it imposes onto others.

There's nothing "free" or "socialist" about bothering other people, refusing to help other people, being an obstacle in the way of others, making others uncomfortable, thinking only of yourself.

Yes, socialism, the outlook that everyone has the right to disturb the piece of their neighbors by blasting loud music, making it so they can't themselves enjoy what they chose: sleep, or hey, even listening to their own music.

How about trashing public property that you use yourself. Throwing trash on the ground in parks and trains you use. Ruining your own things.

You'll find that this inconsiderate behavior is most common in the more individualist societies like the United States. In more communal societies, it is not common.

But it's not black and white. There is some cross over.

The truth is that basic consideration is a cornerstone of any real community. Individualism and nihilism are problems.

[Clifford C Clavin]

This is always my problem with the left. It all sounds good, but then when it comes to real world issues they have nothing to say.

Yeah, a macho tough guy driving drunk while texting in his souped-up car with a loud exhaust and blasting music through a residential area at 1 am is not a real issue? Sure, he'll fit right in at the Petrograd Soviet. Gimme a break.

[Lynx]

Singapore has a model for dealing with the sort of behavior you describe.
I have only lived in Canada and if we are more considerate than Americans I would guess that this is a cultural phenomenon. Perhaps our long winters force us to be more civil.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.

Liberation doesn't meant that people are necessarily going to like each-other on a personal level all the time. So some people will get annoyed and some people might get in fights even.


My problem is that while I have a general idea of how the economic and political transformation can and must take place, I have no idea how changes will come about in people themselves when it comes to their abhorrent behaviors.

Well behaviors are often situational - there's no "annoy your neighbor gene". But although you may not believe this, I think much of this annoyance/annoying behavior can be traced to the situations we find ourselves in under capitalism.

We are forced into crowded areas where often there is not enough sanitation and so people give up and simply don't care because what does it matter if they throw one more piece of trash on a road already full of litter or that's just in decay.

People in the US get road-rage. Why? Well because they are stuck in stressful (and physically dangerous) situations of rush-hour traffic where millions have to go somewhere in one city at the same time. You can't communicate with those around you (other than a horn or a rude gesture) and everyone's in a rush and so it's an alienating feeling of powerlessness felt by billions worldwide 2x a day!

Same with trains - people are crowded in, they get cutthroat over seats because there aren't enough spaces. Same with many apartments or housing for the poor - it's overcrowded and everyone's on top of each-other and hey some people want to listen to music and have some drinks - that's not a problem for rich people, only for us apartment dwellers.


People who abuse the elderly? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.These are examples of what Marxists have called "mixed consciousness" which is basically people internalizing ideas that hurt them in the big picture.

Historically racism and often religious sectarian bigotry and animosity are either used and cultivated by ruling groups or invented outright by them. In Egypt, the SCAF tried to spark religious strife and attacks on Coptic Christians in order to give itself an excuse to justify crack-downs on the population and also to try and make it seem like any rule but theirs would lead to chaos. In the US, anti-black racism and slavery itself were favored by the rulers as a way to disarm movements from below by bondsmen and servants first and later of poor farmers and more recently of radical workers. You can read the laws and how they actually constructed a racial caste and animosity where it hadn't existed at that level before.


Sure you can make suggestions to these people. But the fact that they are adults means they have already heard it all. It's not simply that no one told them it's a bad idea to do these things, it's that they simply do not care about anyone other than themselves. They can't see past their own noses.Telling people what to do generally doesn't work unless they have a lot of respect for you personally or they are very young and small and intimidated:lol:. Much of this can not be gotten rid of through "education" or "the right information". People will have to see it in action and again I think Egypt gives a small glimpse of what might be possible when there is active and confident struggle from below: women organized against sexual assault and were supported in the Egyptian movement, there are tons of examples of Muslims and Coptics defending eachother and supporting eachother.


I'd like to write this all off to the dehumanizing effects of capitalism, but I simply can't.Well look at how we live: we have to compete with each-other, we have to become cold to the suffering of the homeless or starving or drug addicted, we have to live in situations that are not stable where we can loose our livelihood or our home all while being told it's our fault for not pulling hard enough on our bootstraps. It's an insane system and it makes many people damaged and insane - and many more just selfish, insensitive, and all-round assholes.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Singapore has a model for dealing with the sort of behavior you describe.

Obviously that would be counter to what we are aiming for.

But you can see a difference even in Korea and Japan compared to America or Spain (or even to China, which was the "mother" of both of these countries).

The real question though is not which countries are "worse" but how to correct the issue!

[Clifford C Clavin]

Jimmy, I appreciate your detailed response. It is really considered and gave me some things to think about. But I must say I think you have a very America-centric view of things.

Please allow me to respond.


We are forced into crowded areas where often there is not enough sanitation and so people give up and simply don't care because what does it matter if they throw one more piece of trash on a road already full of litter or that's just in decay.

Why is that the case in say New York or Shanghai, but not the case in Seoul or Tokyo?


People in the US get road-rage. Why? Well because they are stuck in stressful (and physically dangerous) situations of rush-hour traffic where millions have to go somewhere in one city at the same time. You can't communicate with those around you (other than a horn or a rude gesture) and everyone's in a rush and so it's an alienating feeling of powerlessness felt by billions worldwide 2x a day!

There are many crowded places. During rush hour in Tokyo or Osaka it can be almost impossible to move. Yet "road rage" is extremely uncommon in Japan, and I've actually had Japanese friends ask me why Americans get like that on more than one occasion.

The same goes for customer service. In a place like America or the Philippines, service workers could care less about you. I always understood it and wrote it off as a result of them having very low pay, changing jobs often, having no stake in the job. But then, in Korea, Japan or Singapore, you receive a world-class level of customer service from teenagers and young 20's people making $3.5-$5 USD per hour in the same kind of jobs, it really dispells that notion!

I don't think there is any "superiority" in one place or the other, but I wonder what is the underlying cause here.


Same with trains - people are crowded in, they get cutthroat over seats because there aren't enough spaces.

Look, Tokyo has the most crowded trains in the world. Really. Shinjuku Station is the busiest station in the world. But you know what? The tracks and stations are totally clean. And even though people push their way into to crowded trains to get a spot, you will not hear a loud conversation, anyone's music, or even a phone call taken at any time. There is no police enforcing this. It's a common decency.

In Korea the trains are clean, but people do have loud conversations or talk on the phone. Still it wouldn't be anything like New York or Chicago, with garbage and rats in the station and people playing loud music or cursing on the train next to me.


Same with many apartments or housing for the poor - it's overcrowded and everyone's on top of each-other and hey some people want to listen to music and have some drinks - that's not a problem for rich people, only for us apartment dwellers.

See here is a real problem. This is true in America sure. (But maybe not New York where everyone lives in an apartment). But it's not true elsewhere.

In Japan and South Korea nearly everyone lives in an apartment. Especially South Korea. Rich people too! In South Korea only some old poor farmers left over from the past still live in houses. Very few. And you know what? You won't hear any neighbor's music in these places. It's a common consideration. People would really think you were a jerk if you let your own enjoyment encroach on the lives of others.

There are these things called headphones! It's a real shame if your neighbor can't sleep when they want to, or their baby, because you insist on playing your music way too loud.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I think you're a bit too quick to write off the effects of socioeconomic conditions, OP, but I absolutely understand and agree with where you're coming from.

Just the other night in my neighbourhood there were some loud, annoying motherfuckers hanging out at the basketball court behind where I live and yelling at the top of their lungs, occasionally revving their car engine loudly, at 3:00 in the morning---hell, once or twice they drove around the middle of the field.
Then there are people who just leave a mess on the bus when they leave.

People asking for common courtesy aren't being uptight pricks. Saying that "well that's just the way they are regardless of social conditions" is frankly a bs easy answer, though.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Thanks. Yeah, it obviously a real problem. The question is can we root out the causes and can we solve the problem, and how!

[passenger57]

Clifford, I guess you are 100% right. I mean, while it is very necessary to change capitalism and replace it with socialism. At the same time, it would also be very good for people to stop being so stuck-up, so self-absorbed, so social phobic, so people-phobic, so avoidant, so unfriendly, so unloving, so uncool, and with very poor and low social ethics. I live in a lower middle class, lower class neighborhood, and even though I am not a psycho-analyist, a psychiatrist and a sociologist. I can tell with my very own eyes, just by observing the gestures and attitude of the people of the community where I live, how people hate each other around here.

The other day I was talking with a friend of mine who lives in a trailer park and he told me that most of his neighbors hate each other. There has to be an underlying cause of why there is so much narcissist hatred in America. Maybe it's the ultra-competitive Ayn Rand philosophy of life, maybe the corporate mainstream media thru the movies and most TV shows sell a USA to americans that' doesn't exist. A USA of wealth and luxuries.

Along with other causes, you know a church pastor from the church my family goes to around where I live, who has been in other countries in his church missions, critisizes the American society. Because he said that in Haiti where he has been even strangers are friendly with each other. He said that in America when people are waiting in line in a supermarket cashier, in a gas station americans tend to avoid each other.

You know there has to a band-wagon effect and a tinkerbell effect of the evil anti-social behaviour patterns of most americans. The bandwagon and tinkerbell effect means that people tend to adopt the behaviour patterns of the society in which they live. So from my own personal thought about the extreme narcissism of most americans. I think that ultra-narcissism of most people of the USA really came back from 1776, because USA was founded by narcissist libertarian ultra-individualist founding fathers, with a libertarian narcissist constitution and a narcissistic ultra-egocentrical philosophy of life and a libertarian urban planning and ultra-egocentric social phobic system of living.

I think that anti-social hateful bandwagon effect of Americas being so different to the cool Cubans, Spain citizens, Venezuelans, Chinese who are really nice and cool, is really rooted in the US founders and ultra libertarian system of hatred, racism and evil that US founders founded.

I think a loving socialist system with a loving way of life can really destroy all that narcissist behaviour, avoidant behaviour, social phobic behaviour of all americans and turn the whole USA into a country of cool, loving, friendly smiling people

There is lots of hatred in the USA, living in USA is not a piece of cake !!


.




I am a proponent and a partisan. I believe in the capabilities for fundamental social change. My problem is that while I have a general idea of how the economic and political transformation can and must take place, I have no idea how changes will come about in people themselves when it comes to their abhorrent behaviors.

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.

Sure you can make suggestions to these people. But the fact that they are adults means they have already heard it all. It's not simply that no one told them it's a bad idea to do these things, it's that they simply do not care about anyone other than themselves. They can't see past their own noses.

I'd like to write this all off to the dehumanizing effects of capitalism, but I simply can't.

Sure, you can say that people throw garbage on the street because they feel no ownership of it. Capitalism right? By why is it common to do this is in capitalist America, Haiti or China, but not in capitalist Norway, Japan or Canada?

After all, aren't there also people, not necessarily opposed to capitalism, who are decent and considerate? Who volunteer, help people out, hold open doors for people, give their seats to the elderly and the pregnant, return money and lost items they find?

I just don't how consideration can prevail over inconsideration, since considerate people are less likely to be pushy or enforce anything, while the inconsiderate practice a sort of de facto dictatorship of rudeness over everyone.

Can someone give me some ideas? This is an area where I am really shaky.

[jookyle]

I'm a firm believer in proper etiquette and manners, I don't see how maintaing such social functions are in opposition to socialism and can probably be more wide spread during the reconstruction of society into a socialist society.

[passenger57]

Clifford, I have an uncle who is a pschiatrist, psychoanalyst. And I asked him once what does he think about the general american population. And he told me: "Most americans are son of a *****es". The claim that most people in America loving, full of hospitality and cooperativism is just not true.

Have you heard of the "Ugly American Syndrome"? According to the ugly american syndrome. If you ride a bicycle in the USA and you fall and have an accident, in USA nobody will pick you up. I guess that ultra-narcissistic evil behaviour is rooted in ultra-nationalist, racists, evil empires like The German Empire, the British Empire and other nations full of that "We own the whole world" mentality and way of thinking.

Read this article about the general behaviour of most people of USA. This article is written by a progressive writter Jason Miller, who I am sure hates the american fascistic, anti-social, narcissist, social phobic way of life:

1776.0 Americanistic
Personality Disorder
- A Satire

By Jason Miller

09 October, 2007
Countercurrents.org

The essential features of Americanistic Personality Disorder include pervasive patterns of extreme self-absorption, profound and long-term lapses in empathy, a deep disregard for the well-being of others, a powerful aversion to intellectual honesty and reality, and a grossly exaggerated sense of the importance of one’s self and one’s nation. These patterns emerge in infancy, manifest themselves in nearly all contexts, and often become pathological.

These patterns have also been characterized as sociopathic, or colloquially as the “Ugly American Syndrome.” Note that the latter terminology carries too benign a connotation to accurately describe an individual afflicted with such a dangerous perversion of character.

For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be deeply immersed in the flag-waving, nationalistic, and militaristic fervor derived primarily from the nearly perpetual barrage of reality warping emanations of the “mainstream media,” most commonly through the medium of television. Typically indoctrinated from birth to believe that they are morally superior, exceptional human beings, these individuals suffer from severe egocentrism, a condition further engendered by the prevalence of the acutely toxic dominant paradigm known as capitalism.

Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are generally covertly racist, xenophobic, and openly speciesistic. They readily participate in the execution of heinous crimes against human and non-human animals, even if their complicity is banal and limited. As long as they are comfortable, safe, and enjoying the relative affluence and convenience afforded by their nation’s economic extortion, cultural genocide, rape of other species and the environment, and imperial conquests, such individuals display an apathetic disregard for the well-being of other human beings, sentient creatures, and the environment.

Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to exhibit unabated greed and an insatiable desire for material goods. Fueled by a compulsion to shop and acquire excessive amounts of material goods, a condition sometimes referred to as consumerism, they have no regard for the misery and destruction caused by their pathological need for “more stuff”. When confronted with the finitude and fragility of the Earth, they frequently react with level one ego defenses by denying that their behavior is a part of the problem or by distorting reality by asserting that concerns about Climate Change, resource depletion, and irreversible damage to the environment are over-blown. Their deeply entrenched sense of entitlement renders excessive consumption a nearly immutable aspect of their behavior.

Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder are virtually devoid of empathy or compassion. They view life as a game played by “law of the jungle” rules and co-exist with others in a chronic state of hyper-competitiveness, seeking only to advance their careers and “keep up with the Joneses.” Their desire to win, get ahead and “protect what is theirs” has been so deeply etched into their psyches that their capacity to empathize and experience true concern for the well-being of others is severely stunted or extinguished. The pursuit of property, profit, and power rules their malformed psyches, nearly eliminating their capacity for humane behavior.

Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder almost always rely on extortion or violence to get their needs met and to resolve conflict. Believing in their inherent superiority, they eschew laws or rules except when they can utilize them for personal gain or when they fear punishment. Given a choice between a just resolution to a situation and the opportunity to humiliate, subdue, or subjugate the other party, they will choose the latter with a high degree of frequency. They have an amazing capacity to justify their unethical or criminal behavior using false pretexts such as self defense, good intentions, ignorance of the consequences of their actions, or asserting that they were merely carrying out orders.

Individuals with Americanistic Personality Disorder tend to manifest traits indicative of two of Erich Fromm’s personality orientations. They thrive on adding to their possessions (and appreciate their acquisitions more) when they attain them through coercion, theft, or manipulation, thus showing strains of Fromm’s exploitative type. They also exist at a very superficial level, offering the world the “friendly face” of the marketing personality that Bernays and Madison Avenue have taught them is the most effective way of advancing their selfish agenda. Opportunism, careerism, and narcissism poison nearly all of their interactions and relationships.

Specific Culture Features

Americanistic Personality Disorder appears to prevail in a very high percentage of those in the upper strata of the socioeconomic order in the United States (and to persist tenaciously because these individuals have little motivation to alter their pathological behavior as they are largely immune from the consequences of their actions). While it is epidemic amongst the opulent, this characterological deficiency does not recognize socioeconomic boundaries. Various segments of the middle, working and impoverished classes comprise a notable percentage of those exhibiting this condition, including those practicing deeply conservative Christianity, many residents of reactionary states such as those in the south, Kansas, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming, and many members of the Republican Party.

Prevalence

The overall prevalence of Americanistic Personality Disorder was recently measured at approximately 35% of the overall population in the United States.

Diagnostic Criteria for 1776.0 Americanistic Personality Disorder:

A pervasive pattern of greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy, beginning the moment he or she begins to intellectualize and presented in nearly all contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. lacks empathy due to an excessive degree of self-absorption
2. believes that he or she is exceptional and morally superior
3. frequently engages in exploitative behaviors
4. requires frequent acquisition of goods he or she doesn’t need
5. usually resorts to some form of overt or covert violence, coercion, or extortion to resolve conflicts
6. perceives others as obstacles to his or her “success”
7. disregards laws and rules except as a means to achieve his or her agenda
8. demonstrates deep hypocrisy by projecting a righteous, benevolent image while committing reprehensible acts
9. refuses to accept the consequences of his or her actions

Jason Miller is a wage slave of the American Empire who has freed himself intellectually and spiritually. He is Cyrano’s Journal Online’s associate editor


.




I am a proponent and a partisan. I believe in the capabilities for fundamental social change. My problem is that while I have a general idea of how the economic and political transformation can and must take place, I have no idea how changes will come about in people themselves when it comes to their abhorrent behaviors.

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.

Sure you can make suggestions to these people. But the fact that they are adults means they have already heard it all. It's not simply that no one told them it's a bad idea to do these things, it's that they simply do not care about anyone other than themselves. They can't see past their own noses.

I'd like to write this all off to the dehumanizing effects of capitalism, but I simply can't.

Sure, you can say that people throw garbage on the street because they feel no ownership of it. Capitalism right? By why is it common to do this is in capitalist America, Haiti or China, but not in capitalist Norway, Japan or Canada?

After all, aren't there also people, not necessarily opposed to capitalism, who are decent and considerate? Who volunteer, help people out, hold open doors for people, give their seats to the elderly and the pregnant, return money and lost items they find?

I just don't how consideration can prevail over inconsideration, since considerate people are less likely to be pushy or enforce anything, while the inconsiderate practice a sort of de facto dictatorship of rudeness over everyone.

Can someone give me some ideas? This is an area where I am really shaky.

[human strike]

I think it's quite obvious that we should send these yobs to re-education camps.

In all seriousness though, "anti-social behaviour" is what happens when there is an absence of social self-determination. Give people control over their own conditions within society and they'll probably respect it. If "after the revolution" it persists it will be because your revolution has failed. In the meantime, break rules, vandalise, live without constraints.

[passenger57]

I mean, I love all humans, i love all species, even extraterrestrials if they exist. I mean i even love capitalists, people are in a way mind manipulated by the traditional TV news and they vote for traditional capitalist parties. And live a capitalist lifestyle. I love even enemies.

But, however since our goal here in this forum is to overthrow the capitalist system in most countries of the world, and replace capitalist governments with governments of the workers and poor citizens (socialist governments), I think that for that we would need a sort of friendly, loving spiritual unity among the oppressed majority of each country, communication, i mean lots of communication, lots of talking between regular joes and janes in the supermarkets, in retail stores, in the places were joes and janes have a chance to socialize. And of course a positive, optimist attitude in people toward goodness, love, outgoing, altruist, cooperative behaviour in the masses.

Which is 100% the opposite of the last article I wrote which is an article written by Jason Miller a progressive writer that talks about the high levels of avoidant personality disorders, anti-people attitudes and a Robinson Crusoe in a lonely island philosophy of life. That Robinson Crusoe way of thinking which is really the way of thinking of millions of US workers and poor americans. Who are totally isolated and some times in american rural towns. That like ghost towns it is impossible to break the ice with them and to support a socialist united front in a future objective revolutionary situation in America.

I think it is the job of progressive church pastors, artists like Tom Morello, Rage Against the Machine, Bruce Springsteen and other progressive artists to give the US masses a sort of spiritual motivational energies. However the masses of people in USA are like the Foreigner song "You are cold as ice". So I don't really know what to do to destroy that ultra-cold behaviour patterns of american poor people and to instill some hyper-motivational energies in them like the sort of behaviour of Hugo Chavez, who is the perfect example of a super happy, super-motivated person. The kind of spirit we need. Like Che Guevara. Che Guevara I think smiled a lot. Smiling is also a great powerful tool.

Thanks


.



I think it's quite obvious that we should send these yobs to re-education camps.

In all seriousness though, "anti-social behaviour" is what happens when there is an absence of social self-determination. Give people control over their own conditions within society and they'll probably respect it. If "after the revolution" it persists it will be because your revolution has failed. In the meantime, break rules, vandalise, live without constraints.

[Clifford C Clavin]

I think it's quite obvious that we should send these yobs to re-education camps.

In all seriousness though, "anti-social behaviour" is what happens when there is an absence of social self-determination. Give people control over their own conditions within society and they'll probably respect it. If "after the revolution" it persists it will be because your revolution has failed. In the meantime, break rules, vandalise, live without constraints.

This is just sloganeering. I've already pointed to places where people are generally more considerate, even though those places are capitalist. Just as capitalist as America or Spain. So how do you explain it? Of course there is no "self determination" in Korea.

Why do New Yorkers, Spanish and people in China throw garbage on the floor in their train stations? Why do they spray paint on walls? Why do Koreans and Japanese not? Why do Japanese people keep their voices down on the train and not use the phone? Why do New Yorkers play loud music on the train or in their apartment? Why do Osakaites not?

These are generalities, but widely true ones!

They all live in developed capitalist societies.

So we can't say "capitalism, capitalism, capitalism"!

[Jimmie Higgins]

This is just sloganeering. I've already pointed to places where people are generally more considerate, even though those places are capitalist. Just as capitalist as America or Spain. So how do you explain it? Of course there is no "self determination" in Korea.

Why do New Yorkers, Spanish and people in China throw garbage on the floor in their train stations? Why do they spray paint on walls? Why do Koreans and Japanese not? Why do Japanese people keep their voices down on the train and not use the phone? Why do New Yorkers play loud music on the train or in their apartment? Why do Osakaites not?

These are generalities, but widely true ones!

They all live in developed capitalist societies.

So we can't say "capitalism, capitalism, capitalism"!

Unless one thinks there are some kind of inherent differences, then it must come from some material source: most likely something systemic or custom - and custom itself is often just the leftovers and broken DNA of other systems, other ways of living that are still floating around in society.

Why do people in the US do more drugs than other countries? Well it could be in part due to the trade and distribution networks already set up; part on the way the "war on drugs" makes the possibility of massive drug-profits worth the risks; part because of a general move in US counseling towards pharmaceutical treatments. But then in, say, Japan maybe there isn't road-rage but above average suicide rates. Induviduals respond to stress in a multitude of ways depending on their experiences, personal disposition, and all sorts of other factors. If people in regions, cities, or states tend to respond to stresses or alienation in ways that are different from other areas, then it could be something structural or some social custom and social expectations. In fact I doubt you can even break things down by nation as much as you can find different reactions and trends within nations: poor agricultural people more often respond to certain stresses in such a way whereas the town middle class shopkeepers or the urban worker tend to respond in different ways.

But the specific ways people respond to stresses and alienation and a sense of powerlessness or depression are less important IMO than the catalyst. It's not easy to move appartments or houses if your neightbors annoy you and so it creates tensions - co-workers are the same thing. People get depresses and introverted or chip on their shoulder and extroverted, but they are probably responding to similar circumstances: you living situation and job or education are all out of your control and subject to other powers. People grow cold and indifferent because we all have to compete and so this manifests itself as a sort of disregard for others (lack of "common courtesy") or blindness to the oppression and suffering of others.

Getting rid of alienation and these kinds of stresses won't make everyone nice to each-other all the time, but I think it would go a long way for our personal mental health and the health of society in general.

[¿Que?]

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.

I think what you are pointing to is some abstract notion of inconsiderateness, in an abstract generalized way. Having established the abstraction in question, as posing it as a problem of society, you want to deal with the abstraction with an equally abstract general answer.

The answer is simple, capitalism. That IS your abstract answer. Now, when you start pointing to concrete differences in the way these things play out, the concrete manifestations of inconsiderateness, you cannot use these to refute the abstract answer. The answer to a question regarding an abstract phenomenon, not its concrete manifestations, must be generally be at a similar level of abstraction.

Otherwise, what you're doing is reification. The concrete manifestations of the abstract concept, in order to be explained, demand an equally concrete answer.

You can't ask why people drink and drive, and why people play their music loud (concrete), and expect a single answer for both, just because both happen to be inconsiderate (abstraction).

[x-punk]

I think that capitalism certainly exacerbates this issue. Allowing the hoarding and accumulation of private property creating vast wealth divides is surely going to lead to frustration and angst which can certainly manifest itself in antisocial behaviour. In addition, many people can feel trapped in mindless jobs and unable to move away from bad areas which can also lead to frustration.

Add into this a media and culture which sends out a message of 'those with money and status are winners and those without are losers' and you have a bubbling pot of frustration and tension, and a catalyst for this 'american syndrome' which was mentioned in a previous post.

Without capitalism, wealth would be more evenly divided and everyone would have far more opportunity to live life as they wish, which can only reduce this type of problem.

There are still going to do people who act in an antisocial manner and i think people will just deal with it as the situation arises. Some might just ignore and shun them, other will move away from the problem, others will berate. I dont think it will be a huge problem so i dont think there has to be any specific method of dealing with this.

[Clifford C Clavin]

I'm asking for example why people in the United States or China don't care if they are bothering other people, while in Japan or Korea it's foremost in people's minds.

Again, you just can't say "capitalism" or "competition" or whatever. Last time I checked, East Asia was highly capitalist and competitive. Even more than America probably, with lower wages, more average training and education per worker, huge social pressures and no safety net.

But it's not about music or garbage in the end. It's a question of why some people, even in capitalist societies, manage to think about how their actions affect other people and worry if they are bothering other people, while some other people, numbering in the millions, don't care at all about anything but themselves, and even relish in bothering other people.

[#FF0000]

Well people in America (i don't know about China) are pretty much alone. People often feel alienated from others and from their community and just don't really put any sort of value in their neighborhoods or in these public places, nor care about the other people they live around. I'd say (though it's conjecture) that most people also feel that nobody cares about them, either.

I'd say this disconnect with others, this "SOCIAL ATOMIZATION" thing, has a huge amount to do with it. Americans in particular have, on average, very few friends outside of familial relations and those families often don't provide a healthy environment. So that kills self-esteem and self-worth and so you end up with kids who don't give a shit or people who are out and out douchebags towards everyone around them.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Why is that so in America compared to other places? Or China or Spain? And how can we rectify it, even if we successfully changed society (but too, can society successfully be changed by people who don't give a shit?).

Is there more of a chance in places where people seem to care more about their impact on others? Seems unlikely. Where are the erruptions in Japan?

[x-punk]

I think the media and culture are driving forces behind much behavior and I think they create a feedback loop. Japan has a more 'respectful' culture, this is then born out in the media, people mimic the media which then becomes the culture and so the loop goes round and round.

The US or UK has a more disrespectful culture which manifests itself in the media etc etc

You dont actually need the media in this feedback loop as historically the people would just mimic their peers as is still the case today. However, today the media's influence is so staggering I believe it's a fundamental component.

The problem nowadays is that whoever can influence the media a significant amount can in turn influence the culture.

In addition, i think the role of authority is also an influencing factor in so far as a respctful culture such as Japan or Germany tend to also be very respectful of authority. Thus, authoritative powers will strongly influence behavior.

Just some of my thoughts.

[#FF0000]

Why is that so in America compared to other places? Or China or Spain? And how can we rectify it, even if we successfully changed society (but too, can society successfully be changed by people who don't give a shit?).

Oh man, that's a big question and I don't think I can really answer it aside from some conjecture. But what I do know, and what I think we can all agree on, is that there aren't many places in the world where "rugged individualism" is as much of a thing, and I think it kind of shows.

Our cities, for example, aren't really pedestrian friendly. They sprawl. People are generally pretty far from others and the "public space" is a rarity. It's also not all that uncommon to see towns and cities that are virtually ghosts, full of decrepit, abandoned buildings with fragmented communities of people.

What I'm saying is that it's almost like America is designed from the ground up to make people feel alone and uncared for. Everywhere else in the world has a semblance of civilization while the USA is a cyberpunk dystopia.


Is there more of a chance in places where people seem to care more about their impact on others? Seems unlikely. Where are the erruptions in Japan?

The Communist Party in Japan is getting pretty huge, for what that's worth.

[kitsune]

Behaviours are the result of a complex set of conditions. It's too simplistic to look for a single specific culprit.

Some societies have cultural factors that mitigate some of the negative effects of capitalism, others have cultural factors that exacerbate those effects. That doesn't mean that capitalism is not a major contributing factor to those problems.

In America there is a strong cultural emphasis on a highly individualistic, dog eat dog, every man for himself outlook. In Japan the perspective is focused much more on the individual within a social context, recognizing the individual as part of a complex web of social connections and on the interdependence of the group, with a very strong inclination to maintain harmony within the group.

These different views will necessarily produce different behaviours regardless of the political/economic system, but even so, changing from a system that encourages and rewards the highly individualistic, dog eat dog view to one that encourages and rewards social connection and cooperation would result in tremendous changes in social outlook and behaviour as well.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Thanks kitsune. Really good post pal.


What I'm saying is that it's almost like America is designed from the ground up to make people feel alone and uncared for. Everywhere else in the world has a semblance of civilization while the USA is a cyberpunk dystopia.

That made me laugh. Quite true my friend, quite true! But look at a place like this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4468582643_61a20e7ccf_o.jpg

Also a haven for alienation!

I see what you're saying though. There are no easy answers. Something we should investigate to our abilities maybe!

[¿Que?]

There are no easy answers.
There are no easy answers when using flawed reasoning and false or half truths, no, but if you look at things without the lens of whatever cultural chauvinism you want to imply by making this thread, then it becomes less complicated.

For example this statement:

I'm asking for example why people in the United States or China don't care if they are bothering other people, while in Japan or Korea it's foremost in people's minds.
This is the same as saying inconsiderate, so I'm not sure why you changed the language, except to obfuscate and reinforce your argument, hoping that whatever ambiguity exists between synonyms would be enough to cover your ass when you got called out for it, as I am doing now.

Is it really true that people are more considerate in Japan? Or is it, like Jimmy is implying, that inconsiderateness manifests itself differently? I would go with the latter.

In Japan, groping on public trains is a huge problem, to the point that some companies have established women only carts, segregating public transportation by gender, basically. I'd love to see you explain how groping shouldn't really be considered bothering other people.

Like I said, you are committing the reification fallacy, but it might actually be the composition fallacy, not sure. Point is, you're latching on to one or two examples of phenomenon showing people being inconsiderate in the States and not Asia, and concluding that based on those examples, the US is overall more inconsiderate than Asia.

And this is this last part is crucial. I don't think it could be argued that the US is any more or less considerate than Japan, overall, although in some respects it may be, in others it may not, and still in others it may be the same. Even then, assuming you had a supercomputer that could take every example of inconsiderateness and quantify it, and find a measure to compare the two regions, there is still something to be said about perceived inconsiderateness.

For example, I come from a Latin American country, where we are known for our direct and boisterous manner of socializing. In the US, when I go to a nice restaurant with my family, we often get into loud, heated debates and discussions, much to the chagrin of the predominantly Anglo patrons, who usually sit quietly and calmly conversing at barely audible levels. While these Anglos might see our behavior as rude and inconsiderate, in most Latin American restaurants, this isn't a problem at all. It's just normal expressive and passionate behavior.

What you are doing is reifing an abstraction, like trying to argue with someone that you love your significant other more than they do. It's simply not something you can objectively compare in the way you are doing.

[#FF0000]

Also a haven for alienation!

Yeah that's true. Ever hear of the "Hikkikomori" phenomenon over in Japan?

Either way I can't really speak to the situation in Japan one way or the other -- I simply don't know enough about the place.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Don't worry, not knowing about it doesn't have to stop you from saying a bunch of stuff. The user Que? is a good example of that!


In Japan, groping on public trains is a huge problem, to the point that some companies have established women only carts, segregating public transportation by gender, basically. I'd love to see you explain how groping shouldn't really be considered bothering other people.

You read too much manga.

That was actually an experiment, and most people have never seen that car. It was created by the wishes of men actually, who claimed they were often being unfairly blamed for groping when it was just a result of accidents from crowding or women looking for guys to extract money from (bullshit I know, but that's the origins bud). It was about segregation not liberation. It's not normal or in frequent use, and in fact most women rejected it when it appeared.... Unlike let's say the women only taxis in Mexico City, driven by women, which are all over the place, because so many cab drivers have raped female passengers there.

Yea, groping exists in Japan. But It's blown out of proportion

It also exists in America and Korea and everywhere else too. But like I said, no one would play loud music on a train, throw trash on the ground or scream in a restaurant where other people are trying to have a peaceful meal in Japan or Korea or Singapore while it's the usual course in a place like New York or Shanghai or Barcelona.

Of course sexual predators are bothering other people. That's kind of the mode of being a sexual predator. I'm talking about so called "normal people" who bother huge numbers of people on a daily basis by their "normal" actions, simply because they don't care one bit how it affects anyone else. Stop changing the subject and using your college jargon that you picked up last semester and address the questions at hand.

In fact, let's forget about any national mention (especially since you ignored that I mentioned Spain or China and tried to pretend I claimed that "Asia is better than the West" or whatever you imagined). That was just an example to show that multiple phemenoms exist in capitalism.

My main questions are why do so many millions or people no give a single thought to anyone else, can those people make revolution, and what do we do with those kind of people after a revolution?

And no "capitalism" is not a sufficient answer, since like I showed, it doesn't exist everywhere there is capitalism. Even in a place like New York you can find some considerate people here and there.

Some people made real efforts to answer this. Some wrote it off or shouted slogans. Some proved my point that the world is full of assholes.:cursing:

[Clifford C Clavin]

For example, I come from a Latin American country, where we are known for our direct and boisterous manner of socializing.

Sounds like a terrible stereotype. Next you'll say black people are loud at the movie theater.

I know some Hispanic people who are quite well mannered and considerate, and limit their conversation volume so that only those intended to hear it can. If I had rude friends I would end the friendship, regardless of their origins. Consideration is universal.


In the US, when I go to a nice restaurant with my family, we often get into loud, heated debates and discussions, much to the chagrin of the predominantly Anglo patrons, who usually sit quietly and calmly conversing at barely audible levels. While these Anglos might see our behavior as rude and inconsiderate, in most Latin American restaurants, this isn't a problem at all. It's just normal expressive and passionate behavior.

Sounds like cultural relativism in defense of rudeness.

Those people paid the same amount of money you did to enjoy a meal. You should limit your noise to your immediate circle as to not impose your wishes over their wishes. You are in the wrong, and no amount of "spicy blood" "passionate people" stereotyping will change that.

Is this how all inconsiderate people rationalize their behavior? "Because I'm <insert nationality here>?"

[#FF0000]

That was actually an experiment, and most people have never seen that car. It was created by the wishes of men actually, who claimed they were often being unfairly blamed for groping when it was just a result of accidents from crowding or women looking for guys to extract money from (bullshit I know, but that's the origins bud). It was about segregation not liberation. It's not normal or in frequent use, and in fact most women rejected it when it appeared.... Unlike let's say the women only taxis in Mexico City, driven by women, which are all over the place, because so many cab drivers have raped female passengers there.

hahaha oh wow that is all wrong though but you are banned now so w/e even though there's tons i still want to respond to

[Misanthrope]

define anti social; you're stepping on albleist boarders.

[¿Que?]

Well, this is going to be especially satisfying...

Don't worry, not knowing about it doesn't have to stop you from saying a bunch of stuff. The user Que? is a good example of that!
Clifford is an excellent example of the opposite. While I am not disparaging anyone who has a variety of facts at hand to support their argument, all too often, I think mostly as a result of an education system which places emphasis on standardized testing and rote memorization, to the detriment of real critical thinking, what happens is that people with vast amounts of factual knowledge have very little analytical skills.


That was actually an experiment, and most people have never seen that car. It was created by the wishes of men actually, who claimed they were often being unfairly blamed for groping when it was just a result of accidents from crowding or women looking for guys to extract money from (bullshit I know, but that's the origins bud). It was about segregation not liberation. It's not normal or in frequent use, and in fact most women rejected it when it appeared.... Unlike let's say the women only taxis in Mexico City, driven by women, which are all over the place, because so many cab drivers have raped female passengers there.

Yea, groping exists in Japan. But It's blown out of proportion


However true or false this is, it's interesting to note that Clifford unequivocally asserts that the problem was blown out of proportion. In other words, while he admits groping exists, it wasn't really a problem, since most cases were simply women trying to extort money from men. Interesting...


It also exists in America and Korea and everywhere else too. But like I said, no one would play loud music on a train, throw trash on the ground or scream in a restaurant where other people are trying to have a peaceful meal in Japan or Korea or Singapore while it's the usual course in a place like New York or Shanghai or Barcelona.
Absolutely no one? Interesting...



Of course sexual predators are bothering other people. That's kind of the mode of being a sexual predator. I'm talking about so called "normal people" who bother huge numbers of people on a daily basis by their "normal" actions, simply because they don't care one bit how it affects anyone else. Stop changing the subject and using your college jargon that you picked up last semester and address the questions at hand.
Oh, I'M changing the subject? Because originally he said this:

What is to be done about people who play music so loud that every apartment in their building is forced to hear it? People who stand in front of doors smoking cigarettes so everyone who comes in and out have to smell it? People who throw their garbage on the ground in public parks and on trains? People who talk loudly on trains and buses, bothering everyone around them? People who abuse the elderly? People who text or drink while driving, endangering the lives of everyone around them? People who are madly xenophobic or racist, who spout off at the mouth about it all the time. People who grope others or flash their genitals. People like this. And yeah, many of these people are fellow workers.
So was he or wasn't he talking about sexual assault? You be the judge!


In fact, let's forget about any national mention (especially since you ignored that I mentioned Spain or China and tried to pretend I claimed that "Asia is better than the West" or whatever you imagined). That was just an example to show that multiple phemenoms exist in capitalism..
I was using Asia and the West to indicate his spurious assertion that some cultures are more considerate than others. I never accused him of implying that any cultures are better than others in general.

A country or culture's general level of consideration for people in general is too abstract and vague to really pin down, in my opinion. You could say, more specifically what you are being considerate about, and then you could come to more substantial conclusions about the nature and characteristics of cultural differences, but to try to paint an entire country or culture as more considerate to people in general than another is so vague, is an abstraction comprised of such a diffuse and varied amount of phenomena that you could hardly make any assertion (particularly quantifiable assertion) at all. Consideration about what and for whom are key to making sense of this.



My main questions are why do so many millions or people no give a single thought to anyone else, can those people make revolution, and what do we do with those kind of people after a revolution?
This is a valid question, although framed in a horribly chauvinistic way by the OP.


And no "capitalism" is not a sufficient answer, since like I showed, it doesn't exist everywhere there is capitalism. Even in a place like New York you can find some considerate people here and there.
I think here, Clifford was trying to self correct. He realized that the chauvinistic nature of his assumptions would eventually get him in hot water, thus he took a more micro approach.

In any case, the same argument applies. Clifford's definition of considerate is too vague to really take it a face value. One of the main characteristics of serial killers has been, aside from being reserved, quiet loner types, they also tend to be very polite and well mannered.


Some people made real efforts to answer this. Some wrote it off or shouted slogans. Some proved my point that the world is full of assholes.:cursing:
You proved your own point, buddy. I made a concerted effort to deal with your arguments fairly, all invective notwithstanding. You should make the distinction between an indignant but fair response (me) to a polite but dismissive one (you).

[¿Que?]

Sounds like a terrible stereotype. Next you'll say black people are loud at the movie theater.

I know some Hispanic people who are quite well mannered and considerate, and limit their conversation volume so that only those intended to hear it can. If I had rude friends I would end the friendship, regardless of their origins. Consideration is universal.
And I know some pretty inconsiderate Japanese people. Clifford was the one originally making categorical statements about how cultures act, not me. The purpose of my comment was not to reinforce or legitimize any stereotype, simply to show that consideration is often context specific.




Sounds like cultural relativism in defense of rudeness.
Sorry to break it to you, but a certain degree of relativity is the reality of life. Don't like it? Take it up with logic and reason.


Those people paid the same amount of money you did to enjoy a meal. You should limit your noise to your immediate circle as to not impose your wishes over their wishes. You are in the wrong, and no amount of "spicy blood" "passionate people" stereotyping will change that.
Spicy blood? If this user wasn't banned already, I would have made it my primary purpose on revleft to see to it that he got banned. Personally I'm deeply offended. The particular country I'm from isn't really known for spicy foods anyway. And naturally, this asshole will probably say he wasn't making a reference to food at all, but then racism thrives in equivocal speech, now doesn't it?


Is this how all inconsiderate people rationalize their behavior? "Because I'm <insert nationality here>?"
I think I was being way to considerate, simply by making an effort to argue with Clifford in good faith, something that has demonstrably been shown he was not doing...

Good. Fucking. Riddance!

[Jimmie Higgins]

So the person asking about the origin and how to stop a lack of common curtsey in society... got banned because he was flaming and being rude? The internet sure is an interesting place.

[Blake's Baby]

Is the answer to the question then, 'we ban them from RevLeft'?

[passenger57]

You know I read in a book about the german society, the german culture. And it said that the germans also were very quiet people. And that being quiet, i mean not communicating any thing at all among each other like most americans are extremely quiet people is a form of rebellion, it is a trait of rebellion. I think Fidel Castro has a quote about it, he said silence in the middle of a crime or a tragedy is a trait of rebellion and nihilism.

Have you heard about the bandwagong and tinkerbell effects? Well i read in wikipedia about the bandwagon and tinkerbell mental effects

Here is a small definition about THE TINKERBELL EFFECT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkerbell_effect

The Tinkerbell effect is a term describing things that are thought to exist only because people believe in them. The effect is named for Tinker Bell, the fairy in the play Peter Pan who is revived from near death by the belief of the audience.

THE BANDWAGON EFFECT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

The bandwagon effect is a well documented form of groupthink in behavioral science and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads and trends clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so".[1] As more people come to believe in something, others also "hop on the bandwagon" regardless of the underlying evidence. The tendency to follow the actions or beliefs of others can occur because individuals directly prefer to conform, or because individuals derive information from others. Both explanations have been used for evidence of conformity in psychological experiments. For example, social pressure has been used to explain Asch's conformity experiments,[2] and information has been used to explain Sherif's autokinetic experiment.[3]
When individuals make rational choices based on the information they receive from others, economists have proposed that information cascades can quickly form in which people decide to ignore their personal information signals and follow the behavior of others.[4] Cascades explain why behavior is fragile—people understand that they are based on very limited information. As a result, fads form easily but are also easily dislodged. Such informational effects have been used to explain political bandwagons.[5].


What I am trying to explain using these 2 definitions of Tinkerbell effect and bandwagon effect is that I think that most americans are so egocentric, unfriendly, uncommunicative, shy and narcissists because those behaviour patterns and that egocentrical form of life we have in America all dates back to the foundation of the USA and it is ingrained in the spirit of americans. So I think that according to the bandwagon and tinkerbell effect definitions which says that people tend to adopt and emulate the behaviour patterns of the society in which they live. That's why americans are unable to be friendly, loving, outgoing, sympathetic and extroverted. Because those behaviour patterns are very different from what is normal in USA. And most humans prefer to conform, to be slaves of the norms and philosophy of life of their society than to be different from the crowd-mentality.

I think only a socialist system can really little by little destroy the excess of narcissism that exists in USA and in other countries as well, I think that the mexicans are also ultra-individualists, and some nations of Europe



Well people in America (i don't know about China) are pretty much alone. People often feel alienated from others and from their community and just don't really put any sort of value in their neighborhoods or in these public places, nor care about the other people they live around. I'd say (though it's conjecture) that most people also feel that nobody cares about them, either.

I'd say this disconnect with others, this "SOCIAL ATOMIZATION" thing, has a huge amount to do with it. Americans in particular have, on average, very few friends outside of familial relations and those families often don't provide a healthy environment. So that kills self-esteem and self-worth and so you end up with kids who don't give a shit or people who are out and out douchebags towards everyone around them.