Sea
22nd July 2012, 06:45
this thread is mainly to avoid derailing another even further
Posting in OI as the person I'm debating back on is restricted, and seeing how this is a leftist forum, I'm more likely to actually spark a disagreement here.
mods feel free to lock if it gets out of hand seing as this subject is racy (shitty pun if you didn't get that) by its very nature
I don't remember where I read that, from some left source that was criticizing how US government policies are forcing blacks and Hispanics to turn to crime. Googling "race and crime in the United States" gives results like:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/orace.png
And this (http://iontheworld.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-color-of-crime-race-crime-and-justice-in-america/)and this (http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.pdf), according to which "• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery" and "
Blacks commit violent crimes at four to eight times the white rate."
And so on. I don't know where these numbers come from, but it's pretty clear that blacks are much more likely to be criminals than whites in the United States.
I'd like to start this off by pointing out the obvious and most commonly pointed out flaws in the argument that this indicates an racial / genetic aspect in criminal attitudes:
These stats don't account for racism in the judicial system; they assume that no racial bias can be introduced between an emergency call and a conviction.
The fact that oppression directly results in retaliation, conscious in the individual or not, is blatantly ignored.
If there's any validity in the graph itself.
Socioeconomic / material circumstances. Whatever the hell that means depends on who says it, but this seems to be the most widely used counter-argument so I figure I'll throw it in too.
Now to peer in a bit closer at that graph.
Before any of you lil rebels try to pound me down for taking the graph at face value and not using any of your little (pseudo)scientific studies and not stopping to consider your individual (mis)interpertations of them, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to debate against the graph itself, rather the information on the graph. The same arguments apply be they on a graph or in a text or whatever.
There are very large swings in the number of murders committed by blacks. To me this suggests turbulent social conditions as a big factor. There is also a rather level period between approx. 1999 and 2004. Perhaps this represents a baseline on account of judicial bias? I'm really not certain and need to do more work.
Here's more evidence of social turbulence taking a part:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/ovrelrace.png
source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm
As you can see, crimes that cross racial lines are much rarer between people who know eachother. This goes well with what I have read that people who are racist generally spend less time in the company of other skin colors, creating a sort of a vicious cycle. (If anyone has the link to that paper, please post as I seem to have lost it.)
Posting in OI as the person I'm debating back on is restricted, and seeing how this is a leftist forum, I'm more likely to actually spark a disagreement here.
mods feel free to lock if it gets out of hand seing as this subject is racy (shitty pun if you didn't get that) by its very nature
I don't remember where I read that, from some left source that was criticizing how US government policies are forcing blacks and Hispanics to turn to crime. Googling "race and crime in the United States" gives results like:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/orace.png
And this (http://iontheworld.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-color-of-crime-race-crime-and-justice-in-america/)and this (http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.pdf), according to which "• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery" and "
Blacks commit violent crimes at four to eight times the white rate."
And so on. I don't know where these numbers come from, but it's pretty clear that blacks are much more likely to be criminals than whites in the United States.
I'd like to start this off by pointing out the obvious and most commonly pointed out flaws in the argument that this indicates an racial / genetic aspect in criminal attitudes:
These stats don't account for racism in the judicial system; they assume that no racial bias can be introduced between an emergency call and a conviction.
The fact that oppression directly results in retaliation, conscious in the individual or not, is blatantly ignored.
If there's any validity in the graph itself.
Socioeconomic / material circumstances. Whatever the hell that means depends on who says it, but this seems to be the most widely used counter-argument so I figure I'll throw it in too.
Now to peer in a bit closer at that graph.
Before any of you lil rebels try to pound me down for taking the graph at face value and not using any of your little (pseudo)scientific studies and not stopping to consider your individual (mis)interpertations of them, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to debate against the graph itself, rather the information on the graph. The same arguments apply be they on a graph or in a text or whatever.
There are very large swings in the number of murders committed by blacks. To me this suggests turbulent social conditions as a big factor. There is also a rather level period between approx. 1999 and 2004. Perhaps this represents a baseline on account of judicial bias? I'm really not certain and need to do more work.
Here's more evidence of social turbulence taking a part:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/ovrelrace.png
source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm
As you can see, crimes that cross racial lines are much rarer between people who know eachother. This goes well with what I have read that people who are racist generally spend less time in the company of other skin colors, creating a sort of a vicious cycle. (If anyone has the link to that paper, please post as I seem to have lost it.)