the meaning of life...

[MotherCossack]

our species is bonkers in the nut.....

the vast majority of us have allowed ourselves to be cornered into behaving as though we were living on a privately rented planet, bound by a rubbish contract, with no rights and exorbitant rents......

The planet is free!!!!!!!
we dont pay to live on it....... as long as we look after it..... there is no charge......it started off equal.... what the fxxx happened?
How come all of a sudden it all belongs to them!? and how come they can just suddenly charge us for being here? we were here before they were too...... why is a whole heap of stuff theirs now?

if i wasn't on the recieving end of this crap situation i'd piss myself laughing at the absurdity of it!

Does anyone know what I am on about?

[JPSartre12]

I think I'm understanding the gist of what you're saying.

Yes, ecologically and economically the whole system about ownership is very backwards and messed up. I'm not sure who started the system when, but it's definitely got to go.

[Positivist]

Yes, I agree, any claim to "ownership" is effectively meaningless on this objective world.

[The Jay]

We cannot know how it started exactly but I think that it started with "finder's keepers".

[Zav]

They have the guns. It's as simple as that.

[Rafiq]

The existence of private property, and, of course, a state to "enforce" such an existing social condition, I don't believe, can be reduced to a spontaneous act of domination, the theory that much of the Anarchists of the 1800's adhered to when formulating their conception of the state. Indeed, there was not this harmonious, classless state of affairs which was suddenly disrupted by a group of undesirables, which later became the state. For me, this is both too simplistic (albeit ideoloigically complex, to say the least) and seemingly ahistorical. The formation of what we call private property, or "owernship", in this context, with a state, was somewhat of an unintentional, peaceful process. In the same way that the existence of human life was. Now, remember that one ridiculous portion of the Glenn Beck show, where he spoke of how if you placed a frog in boiling water, he won't realize he's in danger until he actually dies, or something along those lines? This is kind of how class society, and a state with it formed, i.e. With the discovery (or invention?) of agriculture, which of course, as we know, created a division in labor, slowly, and almost naturally, a ruling class came into existence, not necessarily by force, but through a slow and almost unnoticeable process, to those who participated in it (if that makes sense). The state, maybe, is another story. The existence of this ruling class necessitated the creation of a state, no doubt. But it's at best, extremely difficult to actually define what a state is.

We all know the book the Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State, by Engels, and we know the book to be exceptionally useful when combatting the Bourgeois family structure, or at least analyzing it. But it's also famous for another reason, namely, the other two subject matters of the publication, Private Property and the state. It goes into detail, quite well at that, on the origins of such (obviously). I recommend it.

I will say this, though: I don't think the existence of class society, the capitalist mode of production and it's predecessors, etc. are in any way an abomination to the human species and to "Earth". I don't think there exists even a harmonious balance within the Earth, and within our species that could allow us to root out what mode of production is our "zero state", i.e. Our natural state of being. I don't think that there exists for us a natural state of being beyond the state of being that is the dynamic and constant adjustments and abrupt changes in human social movement, and in the mode of organizations that the human species experiences. Though, what makes these unique is simply the fact that these are not organized as an expression or a reflection of our wills, rather, they exist as a product of a will, which was in itself a reflection of material conditions existing.

[Clifford C Clavin]

The main question today in this post-modernist world is "what is the meaning of life?" If don't at least venture down the path of questioning this widely as a species, we are doomed.

[Hit The North]

Though, what makes these unique is simply the fact that these are not organized as an expression or a reflection of our wills, rather, they exist as a product of a will, which was in itself a reflection of material conditions existing.

Or, as Marx says more clearly, "In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will..."

So when MotherCassock argues that "the vast majority of us have allowed ourselves to be cornered into behaving as though we were living on a privately rented planet, bound by a rubbish contract, with no rights and exorbitant rents...." that's because people have an accurate apprehension of the actual facts of the "definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will."

So people are not behaving in a manner that is at a variance to the facts of the relations they find themselves in (evidently the world is not free), but in a manner that corresponds to the facts. So it is not the behaviour that is wrong and needs changing, but the social relations that need to be overthrown.

[Mr. Natural]

Fuck The Clock, nee PAT, nee BTB, absolutely nails the essence of our dilemma: we are born into a system and generally unquestioningly adopt the institutions and values of The System. It is our system: we are parts of its whole.

Marx's historical materialism and his concept of the fetishism of commodities speak eloquently and repeatedly to this mental as well as physical capture of humanity within capitalist systemic values. The ruling ideas of an age are those of its ruling system and the ruling class it produces.

But this begs the question: What is the problem with the capitalist relations within which we are stuck? The answer is that the organization of capitalism is opposed to the organization of life. Capitalism manufactures a runaway profit at the expense of life's communities; life generates a sustainable surplus (ecological profit) with which it generates and maintains its communities.

Life and communism are all about community. Capitalism is a cancer of the communities of life and society and destroys them to manufacture profit. And the globalization of capitalism represents its metastasis of living relations on Earth.

So, Mother Cossack, it's time to get to work on EarthMotherfucking capitalism, isn't it?

My red-green best.

[Clifford C Clavin]

Marx's historical materialism and his concept of the fetishism of commodities speak eloquently and repeatedly to this mental as well as physical capture of humanity within capitalist systemic values. The ruling ideas of an age are those of its ruling system and the ruling class it produces.

I always wonder about this. Sure it's easy to use this formula to "forgive" others. "They know not what they do." But where do people like you and I come from? Did we not originate in this same system? Why do we not have these "ruling class ideas?"

[Desperado]

I always wonder about this. Sure it's easy to use this formula to "forgive" others. "They know not what they do." But where do people like you and I come from? Did we not originate in this same system? Why do we not have these "ruling class ideas?"

That's part of Marx's point, that capitalism creates within it the tendencies which will bring it to an end. It creates a mass, international proletariat, whose interests are opposed to capital's accumulation. Capitalism digs its own grave, and we, the proles, are those grave diggers. Marx's own work, and what we are typing here now, are likewise ideas trapped within their historical framework and context of the time, "the system", and are part of capitalism's self destructive process.

The ABC of Communism puts it nicely:

Precisely after the manner in which we might study a machine, or, let us say, a clock, did Marx study the structure of capitalist society, in which factory owners and landowners rule, while workers and peasants are oppressed. Let us suppose we have noticed that two of the wheels of our clock are badly fitted, and that at each revolution they interfere more and more with one another's movements. Then we can foresee that the clock will break down and stop.

[Clifford C Clavin]

According to that the system will end on its own. But isn't the point that we need to do something to move forward? Otherwise, why do we type here?

[Hit The North]

The ABC of Communism puts it nicely:
Precisely after the manner in which we might study a machine, or, let us say, a clock, did Marx study the structure of capitalist society, in which factory owners and landowners rule, while workers and peasants are oppressed. Let us suppose we have noticed that two of the wheels of our clock are badly fitted, and that at each revolution they interfere more and more with one another's movements. Then we can foresee that the clock will break down and stop.



Sorry, comrade, but that is a poor passage. If Marx had thought that we could adequately study society like it is a machine, he wouldn't have spent all that effort debunking mechanical materialism.

[Hit The North]

I always wonder about this. Sure it's easy to use this formula to "forgive" others. "They know not what they do." But where do people like you and I come from? Did we not originate in this same system? Why do we not have these "ruling class ideas?"

I think the point is that the relations of production compel individuals to act in certain ways to preserve their self-interest, sometimes this is pursued unconsciously or in a mystified/ideological manner, other times it is conscious class self-interest. But it is obvious that in the day to day class struggle, workers and capitalists are at odds and design strategies to enforce their interests and/or resist the claims of the opposing side. In that respect, the class struggle opens up the possibility of conflicting ideas about the legitimacy, rationality, or moral grounding of the prevailing relations of production. Capitalism is no more all powerful and non-contradictory in our heads than it is those things in reality. So there are always spaces for dissent; for people like us.

The ruling classes ideas are not the ruling ideas in society as some automatic effect of the social order, they earn their place through enforcement (materially and ideologically) - hegemony is always in a process of being accomplished. Hence the importance of revolutionary theory and revolutionary struggle.

[Mr. Natural]

Clifford C. Clavin, The left, as is true for the rest of modern capitalist society, has been largely consumed by the organization and values of The System. Capitalism is a quantitative, reductionist system that attacks living systems, and it reduces the people and communities of life to commodified parts and representatives of capitalism's systemic whole.

Let's look at Revleft for an example, where we find a hyper sectarianism. Here a left that should be developing more and more unity leading to revolutionary processes instead occupies itself with forming various circular firing squads. There is little comradely discourse at Revleft, nor is there any impetus to "get organized."

There is also a stark dearth of new ideas. There is an endless rummaging through the classics, and there are no new "classics." I'm a Marxist, and with the very iffy possible exception of ecosocialism, I cannot think of anything new to appear in many decades. Indeed, there is a hostility to new ideas at Revleft. The new sciences of the organization of life get no play at all, for example, and an authoritarian "communism" is often promoted.

The above examples and the many others I can offer all point to a degraded, demoralized "left" that has become a product of the system it ostensibly opposes.

Capitalism is a system, and its globalization means that its institutions and values now envelop life on Earth. We are now all parts of capitalism's entropic whole, and the fragmentation and conservatism of the left is but one manifestation of this reality.

These remarks are not meant as an attack on Revleft. It's the best there is; indeed, it's apparently all there is in terms of going online and discussing this and that with other leftists. Revleft is currently woefully inadequate to the critical task of developing viable revolutionary theory though, and comrades need to re-radicalize their minds and revolutionize this site.

The first step in countering this godawful situation is to realize that it is indeed real. The second step would be to investigate the new sciences of organization, merge them into a synthesis with the Marxism and materialist dialectic with which they naturally ally, and learn to organize.

My red-green best.

[Rafiq]

According to that the system will end on its own. But isn't the point that we need to do something to move forward? Otherwise, why do we type here?

Capitalism's destruction is inevitable. But that doesn't mean the proletariat will walk away as the champions of it's demise.

[MotherCossack]

Capitalism's destruction is inevitable. But that doesn't mean the proletariat will walk away as the champions of it's demise.

hey.... yo!!!! yo is ma main man.... with yo sharp observations!!!
seriously though..... there are quite a few variables that could very well amount to a whole heap of shit worse than the heap of shit that currently prevails!
how low can we go ?
How dumb can we be?
How far must we travel in the opposite direction before maybe .... by some super-miracle enough of us, who have the means to effect change, see the light......?
Is this planet a designated hell-hole...... doomed to accommodate ever more harrowing and despicable visions of inhumanity and woe.... until we all descend into the fiery belly of our own sun.....
or will all these idiots who believe the tripe they are fed.... somehow gain the savvy to say....."hang on! you are a liar! Mr capitalist! And as for you mr Fascist.... Boo to you too..... It is time for some community..... time for society.... time for humanity....... it is time to care.... time to share...!!!!


bullshit am i a hippy.... no i like bacon.... as long as the pig had a good life..... had a good shag..... died smiling.....
[hope I havent just cooked my goose so to speak!!!]

"it is never gonna happen"..... is just some lame excuse...... we can do anything..... right now...... if we want to.

[Art Vandelay]

hey.... yo!!!! yo is ma main man.... with yo sharp observations!!!
seriously though..... there are quite a few variables that could very well amount to a whole heap of shit worse than the heap of shit that currently prevails!
how low can we go ?
How dumb can we be?
How far must we travel in the opposite direction before maybe .... by some super-miracle enough of us, who have the means to effect change, see the light......?
Is this planet a designated hell-hole...... doomed to accommodate ever more harrowing and despicable visions of inhumanity and woe.... until we all descend into the fiery belly of our own sun.....
or will all these idiots who believe the tripe they are fed.... somehow gain the savvy to say....."hang on! you are a liar! Mr capitalist! And as for you mr Fascist.... Boo to you too..... It is time for some community..... time for society.... time for humanity....... it is time to care.... time to share...!!!!


bullshit am i a hippy.... no i like bacon.... as long as the pig had a good life..... had a good shag..... died smiling.....
[hope I havent just cooked my goose so to speak!!!]

"it is never gonna happen"..... is just some lame excuse...... we can do anything..... right now...... if we want to.

Well, undoubtedly, what takes capitalism's place could very well be worse than the situation that we currently find ourselves in, this we simply cannot know; but what I can say is this, without proletarian revolution within 75 years, were fucked. Not the planet, we are not destroying the planet (its survived ice ages before, its not going anywhere) but we are literally shooting the human race in its metaphorical head.

[MotherCossack]

hear, bloody, hear!!

only........ you know what....... i dont think that them what is over yonder in their snazzy

new motors, magnificent flowing yachts, air-conditioned but hardly used holiday villas,

ridiculously expensive town houses and exclusive yet silly social circle of unquestioningly insincere, privileged

chums......i dont think they are listening!!!!!!!

and it is they which have such unwarrented, and entirely undeserved, means to accumulate .... which affords

them power to...... well.... to do whatever they want really......

and such an amalgam of unworthy individuals..... you could not have asked for less..... in character or intent.

and from among this sorry selection of idiots are our great leaders often chosen.....[ especially in the uk of

late!!!!!!!]



Why would they care? they do not want a free world..... they want us to continue paying for what already belongs to us and feed the huge lie...... that they own the world and we must pay....!!!
no no no no chance!!!!!!


but the real tragedy........ is that we fall so easily for the lies...... we swallow it all, happily, ....... practically fill in the gaps ourself........thus..... carving up the future and alienating everyone..... we who lose out so much......... have not the wit to initiate anything... let alone change!

[Pelpy]

They have the guns. It's as simple as that.

He's right, It really is as simple as that.
It's inevitable. Ever heard people say that humans love to create a hierarchy? It's true. And unfortunately, this is the result. The selected minority comfortably sit in a position of unbelievable power, one that OP described: quite literally owning this world. The reason we let these selected few into this position of power is because we're scared, we need a babysitter, someone to give us false comfort. It is the unlucky ones that see past this, and see what true bastards are in that position of power. I use the word "unlucky" in reflection to the old phrase: "Ignorance is bliss".

How did they get to that place of power? Well, that's a whole other subject, and I have neither the patience nor mental capacity to go into that.

[MotherCossack]

hear, bloody, hear!!

only........ you know what....... i dont think that them what is over yonder in their snazzy

new motors, magnificent flowing yachts, air-conditioned but hardly used holiday villas,

ridiculously expensive town houses and exclusive yet silly social circle of unquestioningly insincere, privileged

chums......i dont think they are listening!!!!!!!

and it is they which have such unwarrented, and entirely undeserved, means to accumulate .... which affords

them power to...... well.... to do whatever they want really......

and such an amalgam of unworthy individuals..... you could not have asked for less..... in character or intent.

and from among this sorry selection of idiots are our great leaders often chosen.....[ especially in the uk of

late!!!!!!!]



Why would they care? they do not want a free world..... they want us to continue paying for what already belongs to us and feed the huge lie...... that they own the world and we must pay....!!!
no no no no chance!!!!!!


but the real tragedy........ is that we fall so easily for the lies...... we swallow it all, happily, ....... practically fill in the gaps ourself........thus..... carving up the future and alienating everyone..... we who lose out so much......... have not the wit to initiate anything... let alone change!

wowerooney!!!!!!!

i say.......

WOWEROONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I SAY.........

that is some seriously well good shit .......right there!!!!!!

you poetical mother you!!!!!!

[MotherCossack]

and another thing.....
on a similar theme....
and along the same lines.....
that there opening ceremony.....

it were quite good at first.... the bits i saw......
the industrial stuff and the production lines and drums.....and workers.....
it is good to celebrate the rise of men who reached such heights.... all by the sweat, blood and lives of the common man.... Jolly good show what! and quite right too!

but .....

i dont half rejoice that i weren't unlucky enough to have come by tickets for the mammoth extravaganza......
jeeez .... it didn't half go on and on and on and on and onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn......................aaaaaaaaaan nnnnnnnnddddddd ooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddd ddddddddddd oooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn......... .....................

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz sitting through that would have tried the patience of a saint i reckon.............

the torch lighting bit was nice..... very arty...... pretty...... symbolic........ young'uns an' all...........

but..........

why did they finish it all off with some geriatric, incongruously brown- haired pitiful shadow of his younger self, [and he wasn't the best even then] namely paul my-tart-and-me.

oh dear!!!!

and to think it cost 'em a grand each......... ha ha ha ha

with one or two exceptions......the charming Windsors......
they get the best seats .... fancy red carpet.....backstage passes..... door to door nice motor..... songs sung to them ad infinitum.........curtsies..... bows.... and no doubt more cucumber sarnies than you could shake a stick at.

and an unlimited supply of daft hats.....

how is any of it just or fair or sporting for that matter?

[Desperado]

According to that the system will end on its own. But isn't the point that we need to do something to move forward? Otherwise, why do we type here?

That's more of an existential problem you have here. You (and everyone else) will make the revolution (if it happens), but to know whether it will happen is a question you (and everyone else) has to ask themselves. It's almost painfully alike to some similarly confused thoughts on determinism/freedom. "If the world is deterministic, how can I will anything, won't it just happen?"

Your basic problem is that you are trying to see the system ending "on its own". That's impossible. We are an integral part of the system - there's no "on its own" about it.


Sorry, comrade, but that is a poor passage. If Marx had thought that we could adequately study society like it is a machine, he wouldn't have spent all that effort debunking mechanical materialism.

The only point of the passage is that our society has an irreconcilable internal contradiction, something Marx positively asserted.

[Hit The North]

The only point of the passage is that our society has an irreconcilable internal contradiction, something Marx positively asserted.

Except that the passage in question doesn't mention contradiction and neither does its analogy illustrate a contradiction.

[MotherCossack]

There is none!
catagorically....absolutely......
no meaning at all......
life is a mish-mash of relatively insignificant occurances...
any pattern or supposed design ......
is merely a result of the chaotic nature of the universe...
or rather....
a by-product of it.

[Mr. Natural]

Mother Cossack, You definitely have style, but I have trouble understanding you at times. Do you really believe the universe is chaotic or were you tongue-in-cheek, as is your custom? There is an organization underlying the "chaos" of the universe. The universe is a dynamically related whole. Chaos theory reveals a deep order underlying the "chaos" of life and the universe.

Your OP asked "What is the meaning of life?" Only we humans give life "meaning," and for us, that would mean organizing in the pattern by which matter and material people come to life. This is a pattern of community, for we are social individuals who must realize our being in community.

The alien-to-life system of capitalism disconnects and destroys community and creates the chaos of disconnected wholes and alienated people. In my area of northwestern California, capitalism has disconnected and is killing the Klamath River with 4 dams, and capitalism's reductive, chaotic social relations have alienated the many groups who need a healthy river from each other (4 tribes, sport and commercial fishers and local economies that depend on healthy fisheries, ennvironmentalists, tourists), and these groups tend to fight each other rather than the common enemy.

Does this sound somewhat like the ultra-sectarianism of the many mini left tendencies? They are creations and reflections of capitalist relations, too.

Life is self-organized community; capitalism destroys human and natural community to manufacture its runaway profit. The "meaning" of human being is to create various forms of community within which we realize our social-individual human natures.

Capra's triangle models life's universal pattern of organization to we who must organize in community. Capitalist relations (production for profit at the expense of community) model a systemic cancer that attacks and severs life's communal, organizational relations.

Well, you confused me and this has been my confusing payback. My red-green best.