Colombian Indians put FARC rebels on trial

[Os Cangaceiros]

Colombian Indians in the country's southwestern Cauca province will put three leftist rebels on trial after they were captured with explosives and automatic rifles on their territory, while indigenous authorities are resuming talks with a government delegation aimed at ending two weeks of unrest in the troubled region.

Local Indians have risen up against government troops and leftist Farc (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/farc) guerrillas in what they claim is their territory in the northern part of the province. There were several flashpoints on Wednesday:

• Riot police used teargas to drive Indians from a hill in the town of Toribio, which the community had overrun after capturing a small group of soldiers from their hilltop post. Dramatic images of the soldiers being dragged away were splashed across newspapers nationwide.


• Soldiers shot and killed a man when he ignored orders to stop at a nearby military roadblock. Although the victim was not an Indian, it angered a group of Nasa people in the town of Caldono who captured and held 30 soldiers all day before releasing them to a humanitarian organisation.


• Nasa's Indigenous Guard, a group of Indians who aim to maintain order in their territory armed with wooden sticks, detained Farc members who were in possession of explosives, three automatic rifles, two pistols and a ramp to launch homemade mortars.

Feliciano Valencia, a Nasa leader, told the Guardian by telephone from Toribio: "The community, in a public, traditional trial will decide what to do with them."

etc.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/20/colombian-indians-farc-rebels-trial?newsfeed=true

[Tim Cornelis]

The Colombian conflict, the longer it drags on, the lesser it becomes about content and the more it is war for the sake of war, it seems. The result is, the terrorising of the working class itself.

The FARC and other leftist guerrilla groups have too little popular support for a revolution, and their numbers are dwindling. It seems better, for the sake of class struggle, to suspend the armed conflict. But I fear that the leadership's ideological commitments obstruct this as otherwise they would have already done so.

If, magically, the FARC seizes power they have no instruments of workers' power to build on and are therefore only capable of a coup.

As Enver Hoxha said:


Your South-American continent has great revolutionary traditions, but, as we said above, it also has some other traditions which may seem revolutionary but which, in fact, are not genuinely on the road of the revolution. Any putsch carried out there is called a revolution! But a putsch can never be a revolution, because one overthrown clique is replaced by another, in a word, things remain as they were.


5,000 peasants march against armed conflict in southern Colombia


5,000 peasants marched in protest of the FARC's use of landmines and government abuses in Colombia’s southern Putumayo department. reported local media Friday.

Organizers said the general goal of the march was to seek a solution to the armed conflict that has plagued the department since the 1960s.

The protesters demanded the attention of Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos and Defense Minister Juan Carlos Pinzon in order to find a solution to the department's ongoing violence.

“We are tired of being the forgotten corner of the country for the government. It is time Colombia knows what we are living through. Every day the war gets worse and the only parts of the state we see are the Armed Forces,” said one of the marchers.

Wilmar Madroñero, a peasant leader, said FARC landmines left 30 victims so far this year. He also criticized the government’s policy of fumigating farmers' crops and the Colombian Air Force’s bombardments of rural villages in the department.

The protesters said the poison used to kill coca plants also killed legal crops, leaving the inhabitants with little or no means to make a living.

Increased mining activity was also a concern for the marchers.

“We are worried about mining concessions. For the government of Putumayo, this is a mining district. We cannot own the land here and it no longer belongs to the peasants or the indigenous,” said Marco Rivadeneira, another peasant leader.

Certain local radio stations said the march was being infiltrated by FARC guerrillas, a claim refuted by the marchers.

“We condemn this stigmatization. Many of the marchers belong to the Patriotic March movement, which is a civil organization. They have already used this argument a lot [and] we have had some peasants and indigenous killed [because of it],

At the end of the march, the marchers announced the creation of the Departmental Patriotic Council, a local branch of Colombia’s national left-wing Patriotic March movement. The marchers gave homage to the community leader Herman Henry Diaz, who disappeared in April 2012, shortly after returning from a Patriotic March meeting in the capital Bogota.

Putumayo’s Governor Jimmy Harold Diaz said his office, the United Nations and certain communities designed a humanitarian plan for the areas near the Ecuadorean and Peruvian borders, where according to the governor, the conflict escalated in the past few years. Diaz said Colombia’s national government had knowledge of the plan, but refused to act.

The Putumayo department is considered one of the epicenters of the Colombian armed conflict. It has a high level of left-wing guerrilla activity from groups like the FARC and the ELN, as well as drug-trafficking gangs like the Rastrojos. According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Putumayo is one of the regions in Colombia were coca cultivation is on the rise.

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/25180-5000-peasants-march-against-armed-conflict-in-southern-colombia.html

[DasFapital]

FARC is nothing near leftist anymore. Its a bunch of thugs producing coke and kidnapping child soldiers in the jungle.

[KurtFF8]

FARC is nothing near leftist anymore. Its a bunch of thugs producing coke and kidnapping child soldiers in the jungle.

Sigh... I suppose I'll just do the standard "refer to the James J Brittain book" post

[RedSonRising]

The relationship between the FARC and indigenous groups as nearly always been conflictual. Contrary to the benevolent autonomous coca-farming model we're often told is practiced by the FARC by some leftist supporters, many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC. They're of the biggest (and most overlooked) victims of the armed conflict. Of course, the state is to blame first and foremost, but neither rural nor urban working class people in Colombia are benefiting much from this war.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

FARC is nothing near leftist anymore. Its a bunch of thugs producing coke and kidnapping child soldiers in the jungle.

What complete and utter bullshit! Read "Cocaine, Death Squads, and the War on Terror: U.S. Imperialism and Class Struggle in Colombia" Oliver Villar. The US and its puppet state of Colombia control the Drug Trade mate. The colombian police itself estimates that the FARC only accounts for about 3%(!) of the drug production in Colombia. The UN even reports of certain rebels destroying coca plantations.

[Homo Songun]

The relationship between the FARC and indigenous groups as nearly always been conflictual. Contrary to the benevolent autonomous coca-farming model we're often told is practiced by the FARC by some leftist supporters, many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC.


Source please. FARC critic Noam Chomsky has exhaustively detailed in talks and books how it is actually the US (fumigation) and Colombian governments doing exactly what you claim the FARC is doing. Example: (http://www.zcommunications.org/cauca-their-fate-lies-in-our-hands-by-noam-chomsky)

Those I met described the US chemical warfare campaign ("fumigation") as a particularly vicious atrocity. Peasant testimonies were graphic and heart-rending, and even a casual visit suffices to see some of the effects directly. Most of the those met were coffee farmers. They had managed to overcome the sharp decline in coffee prices (which devastates the farmers; the multinational distributors are doing fine) by developing a niche market for export, mostly to Europe: very high quality organically-grown coffee. That's destroyed by the fumigation, forever. Not only are all the coffee bushes killed, but the land is poisoned, and will not be certified again, even if they can somehow survive the years it takes to re-establish what has been destroyed, along with all other crops: yucca, asparagus, much else. Their farms and lives are ruined, their animals killed, their children often sick and dying. They are left destitute, with little hope. At least in the areas from which I heard personal testimonies, the crop destruction had little if anything to do with guerrilla presence or drug production -- grotesque as even those projects are. There hadn't even been an attempt to investigate on the ground the areas subjected to ruinous crop destruction. These programs appear to be another stage in the historical process of driving poor peasants from the land, opening up rich resources to exploitation by foreign capital, and probably laying the basis for agroexport controlled by multinationals using laboratory-produced seed, once the biodiversity is destroyed, along with the rich but fragile tradition of peasant agriculture. Along with the governors of the neighboring provinces, Tunubala has called for an end to fumigation, with manual eradication along with programs of social and economic development. But that doesn't fit the aims of the Colombian elite and Washington's "Plan Colombia," so it receives virtually no support. As well as this lecture of his on Colombia around the 3:00 mark on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4eZBGSNcCA

It's part of the basic neoliberal playbook, it happens in Chiapas too.



The FARC and other leftist guerrilla groups have too little popular support for a revolution, and their numbers are dwindling.


Nonsense. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/top-farc-leader-t163838/index.html)

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1xJfLP_ypc) is an interview with the said author.

[Teacher]

Thanks to comrades who suggested books in this thread, I'm excited to check these out.

[RedSonRising]

Source please. FARC critic Noam Chomsky has exhaustively detailed in talks and books how it is actually the US (fumigation) and Colombian governments doing exactly what you claim the FARC is doing. Example: (http://www.zcommunications.org/cauca-their-fate-lies-in-our-hands-by-noam-chomsky)
As well as this lecture of his on Colombia around the 3:00 mark on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4eZBGSNcCA

It's part of the basic neoliberal playbook, it happens in Chiapas too.

. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/top-farc-leader-t163838/index.html)

Source (just one small recent one among others I've read over the years):

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/07/20127199333948829.html

Of course the State and the processes of neo-liberalism are to blame first and foremost for the privatization and commodification of rural land. This doesn't change the fact that the FARC have had to be aggressively territorial to survive, having had financial connections to drug cartels since the 80's (as have other guerrilla factions within Colombia.) The indigenous peoples of Colombia have constantly voiced their discontent due to their forced exile out of their lands by the FARC (as well as the paramilitaries, of course, who are far more brutal.) I don't think it's constructive to ignore the consequences of these practices simply because the FARC are fighting against an oppressive neo-liberal regime.

In terms of a revolution, they have deep ranks of formerly disenfranchised peasants (and of course a core leadership with ideological conviction), but little to no support in urban areas and very little social outreach to continue the politicization process. Couple that with kidnapping innocents and leaving civilian casualties behind from careless mortar attacks, and you have a relatively unpopular insurgency allowing the Colombian state to further oppress the population with accusatory Bush-era-like reasoning.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Nonsense. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/top-farc-leader-t163838/index.html)

In that thread you posted a table which claimed that FARC had some 50,000 soldiers in 2004. In 2007, Raul Reyes claimed that FARC had 18,000 guerrillas (according to the FARC wiki page). That to me suggests a dwindling of forces, assuming that there wasn't some dramatic turnaround from 2007-2012. FARC still continues to carry out many attacks a year (thousands in 2010 alone), but they've also been getting hammered.

I don't know what a successful endgame for FARC would look like...? They're never going to capture political power from the Colombian state. It seems to me the only thing they can accomplish is trying to carve out their own little statelet which will be on a permanent war-footing with the Colombian government. Not a happy prospect.

[Homo Songun]

Source (just one small recent one among others I've read over the years):

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/07/20127199333948829.html

I couldn't find anything on the page or the video to substantiate your original claim that "many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC." Please point it out.

(On the other hand, one of the gringo policy wonks makes throw-away references to the Colombian military doing exactly what Chomsky accuses it of doing around the 16-minute mark.)


In that thread you posted a table which claimed that FARC had some 50,000 soldiers in 2004. In 2007, Raul Reyes claimed that FARC had 18,000 guerrillas (according to the FARC wiki page). That to me suggests a dwindling of forces, assuming that there wasn't some dramatic turnaround from 2007-2012. FARC still continues to carry out many attacks a year (thousands in 2010 alone), but they've also been getting hammered.
Setting aside that a "mere" 18,000 guerrilla would represent the largest communist insurgency in the world so far as I know, what do you think of my argument I present there that, from the perspective of military science, any given guerrilla army necessarily implies a proportionally significant civilian support base, including in the urban areas?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Setting aside that a "mere" 18,000 guerrilla would represent the largest communist insurgency in the world so far as I know, what do you think of my argument I present there that, from the perspective of military science, any given guerrilla army necessarily implies a proportionally significant civilian support base, including in the urban areas?

Well, not necessarily. For example, all of these groups (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2379150&postcount=6) didn't have the same ratio of fighter-to-civilian numbers. Generally though, yes, guerrilla armies rely to a great degree on civilian support, whether it's active support or tacit support.

The only way I see FARC "winning" while using the same tactics they've always used since the Cold War is if one or multiple far left (as in, further to the left of Chavez) south american states appear in the political landscape and start pumping in money and weapons to them.

[RedSonRising]

I couldn't find anything on the page or the video to substantiate your original claim that "many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC." Please point it out.

(On the other hand, one of the gringo policy wonks makes throw-away references to the Colombian military doing exactly what Chomsky accuses it of doing around the 16-minute mark.)


Setting aside that a "mere" 18,000 guerrilla would represent the largest communist insurgency in the world so far as I know, what do you think of my argument I present there that, from the perspective of military science, any given guerrilla army necessarily implies a proportionally significant civilian support base, including in the urban areas?

If you want more detail, this book by Mario Murillo writes about the process very thoroughly and objectively. I looked at his work a few years back when I was doing research. It focuses on the United States' relationship to the armed conflict, but explores the role of the FARC in detail as well. Pages 73 and 74 are the ones which begin to mention their relationship with indigenous communities in Colombia.

http://books.google.com/books?id=EdhCanqQN8kC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Yuppie Grinder]

If you support FARC you'll support anything dressed up in red.

[RedSonRising]

Update for anyone interested- the trials resulted in a public flogging/whipping of the accused:

gwb0a45PsG8

[Homo Songun]

Well, not necessarily. For example, all of these groups (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2379150&postcount=6) didn't have the same ratio of fighter-to-civilian numbers. Generally though, yes, guerrilla armies rely to a great degree on civilian support, whether it's active support or tacit support.

I'm confused. Are you saying these groups:


American revolutionary terrorists during the American Revolution
Spanish guerrillas against Napoleon
Filipino guerrillas against Spain, the USA, and Japan
Irish resistance pre and post IRA
Tito's partisans during WW2
Greek EAM partisans during WW2, and afterwards when they got sold out by the USSR
The Kenyan Mau Mau rebellion
The Algerian war of independence
Vietnam war against the French and Americans
Afghan resistance against the British and the USSR

Did not have as much support that FARC does? Because most of these groups like, won. If so, that completely vitiates your premise that the FARC is "never going to capture political power from the Colombian state", doesn't it?


If you want more detail, this book by Mario Murillo writes about the process very thoroughly and objectively. I looked at his work a few years back when I was doing research. It focuses on the United States' relationship to the armed conflict, but explores the role of the FARC in detail as well. Pages 73 and 74 are the ones which begin to mention their relationship with indigenous communities in Colombia.

http://books.google.com/books?id=EdhCanqQN8kC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false

At this point, I'm fairly confident that you fabricated the charge that FARC steals land from peasants in order to grow coca on it. It "sounds right" since they are nasty enough, what with all the "revolutionary taxes" levied against cocaine traffickers. But cocaine permeates Colombian capitalism, and this doesn't make them stand out of the context they operate within in any way.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm confused. Are you saying these groups:



Did not have as much support that FARC does? Because most of these groups like, won. If so, that completely vitiates your premise that the FARC is "never going to capture political power from the Colombian state", doesn't it?

No, I was saying that there's no set combatant-sympathizer ratio in guerrilla conflicts.

Most of those conflicts were rooted in a different sort of relationship than the one FARC has with the Colombian government, too. Most of those conflicts were rooted in resistance to colonial occupation governments. It's probably easier to wage a conflict rooted in nationalism than it is to wage one in furtherance of an ideology that no longer really has any sort of major standard bearer, now that the USSR is gone.

Not all of those conflicts were successful, though...the Filipino insurgency post-WW2 (which had it's roots in land conflicts/land reform, not so different from Colombia) was thwarted primarily through political maneuvering, not military force. Of course there's still an ongoing communist insurgency in the Phillipines (as well as an Islamic insurgency), but it hasn't really accomplished jack other than extorting money out of companies in the Phillipines, taking out some government functionaries/cops/soldiers every now and then, etc. Sounds like a familiar story.

[RedSonRising]

At this point, I'm fairly confident that you fabricated the charge that FARC steals land from peasants in order to grow coca on it. It "sounds right" since they are nasty enough, what with all the "revolutionary taxes" levied against cocaine traffickers. But cocaine permeates Colombian capitalism, and this doesn't make them stand out of the context they operate within in any way.

National Indigenous Organization of Colombia:

“One thousand five hundred indigenous killed in eight years is a number that truly makes one think about the ignorance and barbarity the FARC use to deal with their issues,” said Gloria Amparo Rodríguez, specialist in indigenous legislation at the Universidad del Rosario.

Since 2004, 80,000 Indians have been displaced from their native lands because of FARC aggression, according to ONIC.

“Our indigenous people cannot walk freely on their land,” said Luis Evelis, an indigenous leader and ONIC representative. “The guerrilla force has them surrounded by landmine fields, or they murder their leaders to weaken the communities, sowing fear and forcing the [natives] to disperse. [The FARC want] control of strategic areas for their fight against authorities and to grow coca leaves.”

Feliciano Valencia, speaker of Regional Indígena del Cauca (CRIC) expresses the problem of FARC coca production within indigenous territories (translation mine):

Vamos a arrancar por Toribío y Miranda, pero lo vamos a realizar en los territorios colectivos indígenas donde hay presencia de grupos armados. En el Cauca hay 570.000 hectáreas de territorios colectivos. En esa zona no vamos a permitir más la presencia de grupos armados. En Jambaló la gente también se está organizando. En Suárez, en el cabildo de cerro Tijeras, donde fue dado de baja 'Alfonso Cano', la gente también se está organizando. Corinto y Caloto también se está organizando. Lo más seguro es que los ocho municipios del norte del Cauca hagamos esto.

We're going to rip (the plants out) by Toribio and Miranda, but we're going to do so in the indigenous collectives where there is a presence of armed groups. In Cauca there are 570,000 hectares of collective territories. In that zone, we're not going to allow the presence of armed groups any more. In Jambalo, the people are also organizing themselves. In Suarez, in the general office of Tijeras, where word was given from "Alfonso Cano", the people are also organizing. Corinty and Caloto are also organizing. The surest thing is that the eight municipalities of the north of Cauca are doing this.

¿Y los cultivos ilegales? (And the illegal cultivations?)

Vamos concientizar a la gente de que eso es más un problema que un beneficio. La gente debe caer en cuenta de que así la coca sea una planta milenaria y medicinal para nosotros, la cogió otra gente y le está dando otro uso.

We're going to make people conscious of the fact that this is more of a problem than it is beneficial. People should come to realize that even though coca is a medicinal plant for us, other people took it and are giving it a different use.

¿Van a renunciar a la hoja de coca? (Are you going to denounce coca leaf?)

La vamos a arrancar de donde esté sembrada de manera extensiva, y vamos a sacar una resolución que diga que cada comunidad puede tener 50 matas para uso tradicional. El resto lo tienen que acabar, porque nosotros mismos estamos dinamizando la guerra, porque el narcotráfico incide en la guerra.

We're going to rip it out where it's grown extensively, and we're going to draft a resolution that says that every community can have 50 plants for traditional use. The rest they have to do away with, because we ourselves are fueling the war, because narco-trafficking incites the war.

¿Qué van a hacer con los laboratorios y los narcotraficantes? (What are you going to do with the laboratories and narco-traffickers?)

Si tenemos que levantar laboratorios lo haremos, y si tenemos que sacar gente externa a nuestras comunidades que ha llegado a procesar este producto, también lo vamos a hacer. Nos vamos a sacudir.

If we have to uproot laboratories, we'll do it, and if we have to kick out outsiders from our communities who have come to process this product, we'll also do it. We're not going to be shaken.




Nobody is claiming the FARC "stands out" particularly worse than the State or paramilitaries do in terms of their violence in rural areas; the point is that their chronic and violent violations of human rights disqualify them as a meaningful alternative to Colombian capitalism, for anyone that recognizes that they aren't simply victims of a right-ring media apparatus alone. Indigenous communities have rejected both sides of the armed conflict, and the lack of democratic processes in rural areas of coca cultivation reveal the nature of the FARC's military structure for the past few decades. I think between the aforementioned text and the ones in this post, I've given ample evidence that the indigenous suffer violence from the FARC in addition to that of the state and paramilitaries with the pursuit of financially beneficial coca production being an element of this violence. If you want to know more, you can research the bloody history of indigenous and FARC conflicts going on since the 1980's yourself.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

At this point, I'm fairly confident that you fabricated the charge that FARC steals land from peasants in order to grow coca on it. It "sounds right" since they are nasty enough, what with all the "revolutionary taxes" levied against cocaine traffickers. But cocaine permeates Colombian capitalism, and this doesn't make them stand out of the context they operate within in any way.

Because you know, putting a minefield where indigenous peasants farm for a living does not pose a very real danger to their lives. Nor does sending bombs and mortars to police posts and military posts in indigenous areas. I'm sure that it doesn't impact their ability to live and farm safely in their homeland at all :rolleyes:

Perhaps the state is mostly to blame for the suffering of indigenous people in Colombia but the anger of the tribes towards the guerrillas is not totally baseless you know. Whether peasants are being driven off their land for coca cultivation, or to allow for rebels to have safe areas of control, or even simply from attacks on the state, either way they are losing out economically, socially, and in terms of their actual personal safety.

[Homo Songun]

Because you know, putting a minefield where indigenous peasants farm for a living does not pose a very real danger to their lives. Nor does sending bombs and mortars to police posts and military posts in indigenous areas. I'm sure that it doesn't impact their ability to live and farm safely in their homeland at all :rolleyes:

Perhaps the state is mostly to blame for the suffering of indigenous people in Colombia but the anger of the tribes towards the guerrillas is not totally baseless you know. Whether peasants are being driven off their land for coca cultivation, or to allow for rebels to have safe areas of control, or even simply from attacks on the state, either way they are losing out economically, socially, and in terms of their actual personal safety.

Well RedSonRising is a Colombian if I recall right, so he would understand that the long tradition of peasant expropriation within the context of the traditional Latin American latifundia system (e.g. giant agricultural estates geared strictly for export) is an altogether different beast than the generalized nastiness one finds in this or any given civil war. For example, the horrific practice of land mines for impeding enemy movement. The comprador bourgeoisie in Colombia, which controls the latifundia system, has been at it for a long time and it is one of the basic contradictions of Colombian society even today.

Essentially, he is accusing FARC of doing exactly what precipitated the civil war in the first place. So, even if we disregard the logistical absurdity of a guerrilla army directly running coca plantations, a little scepticism is more than appropriate. The claim 'many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC' [past tense] is not proven by some guy essentially saying that FARC want control over Colombian territory [present continous tense].... No shit? FARC is fighting the Colombian state?

[RedSonRising]

Well RedSonRising is a Colombian if I recall right, so he would understand that the long tradition of peasant expropriation within the context of the traditional Latin American latifundia system (e.g. giant agricultural estates geared strictly for export) is an altogether different beast than the generalized nastiness one finds in this or any given civil war. For example, the horrific practice of land mines for impeding enemy movement. The comprador bourgeoisie in Colombia, which controls the latifundia system, has been at it for a long time and it is one of the basic contradictions of Colombian society even today.

Essentially, he is accusing FARC of doing exactly what precipitated the civil war in the first place. So, even if we disregard the logistical absurdity of a guerrilla army directly running coca plantations, a little scepticism is more than appropriate. The claim 'many indigenous populations have been pushed out of the south's rainforest borders for the sake of crop and coca production by the FARC' [past tense] is not proven by some guy essentially saying that FARC want control over Colombian territory [present continous tense].... No shit? FARC is fighting the Colombian state?

To avoid confusion, that's why I translated the articled interview in which the indigenous representative explicitly condemned the presence of armed groups, namely the FARC, from operating coca paste producing labs on indigenous territory which they've been encroaching on with severe violence for a long time now (which is also included in he detail by Maurillo's book). This process is distinct from the hierarchies of land distribution present within broader Colombian society, as you correctly pointed out:

http://m.eltiempo.com/colombia/cali/indgenas-exigen-retiro-de-grupos-armados-legales-e-ilegales/12015911