Batman Hates the 99%

[Ocean Seal]

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/18/batman_hates_the_99_percent/

Yo so I don't really care much about these things, and this isn't one of the boycott this shit type posts, but its hilarious. The "messiah of the 99%". The bourgeoisie aren't subtle are they.

[cynicles]

Are there any heroes that are pro-working class though really? Everyone of them either embodies capitalist values or aspires to embody them.

[Leo]

Wow, the Dark Night Rises stole from Dorkly Bits (http://www.dorkly.com/video/27355/dorkly-bits-batman-is-the-1).

[Comrade Samuel]

What? the villain in the next COD game is "a hero of the 99%" well I guess after exhausting Nazis, cold war sleeper cells and modern day russian nationalists it only seems logical to move onto demonizing the greatest threat America has ever faced: occupy wallstreet and it's army of unorganized, blindly angry, hippies.

As for the new dark knight it really surprises me that the series would take such a drastic turn, the previous two dident really seem to have this profound and deep socio-political message, they just seemed like darker, more realist adaptation of stories written for kids many years ago. Well I guess what they say is true: ironman and batman are both proof that capitalism really is the best superpower.

Personally I don't see much point in not enjoying the media as it is despite the fact it is clearly propaganda.

[eric922]

Are there any heroes that are pro-working class though really? Everyone of them either embodies capitalist values or aspires to embody them.

Green Arrow comes to mind. He once shot a shop owner for chasing after a thief who stole from him, because Green Arrow thought charging 4$ for diapers was the real crime. As for the Dark Knight Rises, it's based on Dark Knight Returns, at least in some parts, and Frank Miller has always been a right-wing asshole. Though, Roger Ebert's review did seem to imply that the movie makes it clear that Bane isn't a really an actual hero of 99%, but rather an opportunist.

[Sendo]

I'd reserve judgement. It doesn't appear Sirota has seen the movie yet. Nolan is no Marxist, but I don't think the movie will be quite that bad. He started the script years ago and it is lifted a lot from A Tale of Two Cities. While ridiculous in its characterization of the excesses of the Revolution, AToTC is certainly not a conservative story and Dickens at least always had a liberal pity for the poor or an admiration for the working class depending on the book.

From what the reviews indicate this will be a nothing is what it seems story with lots of plot and twists and reveals. I imagine the greatest slight will be to portray the masses as dumb pawns who will realize that Bane is a liar and a fraud and whatnot. Not as dumb for being populist or in favor of egalitarianism, but dumb as in for trusting Bane. On the other hand Bane will be portrayed as charismatic and intellectual, so it's not like the masses will be seen as a mob who follows the loudest voice.

Dark Knight had some politics that are a bit conservative and very pro-security state, yet a defining moment was how the boats of hostages refused to sacrifice the other. In the convicts' boat there was a lovely ironic twist with the tough convict throwing the detonator overboard. You think he is asking for it from the guard in order to do what must be done and save the guard's conscience, but in fact immediately tosses it. It says a lot that the guard was the one who was actually considering pressing the button.

[Ismail]

Are there any heroes that are pro-working class though really? Everyone of them either embodies capitalist values or aspires to embody them.Grant Morrison did an interview once where he talked about Superman and Batman:

When Superman was created during the Great Depression, he was the champion of the oppressed and fought on the side of the working man. He was lawless. If you were a wife beater, he’d throw you out the window. If you were a corrupt congressman, he’d swing you from the rooftops until you confessed. I think it appealed to people who were losing their jobs to machines: Suddenly you had Superman wrecking machines and punching robots. But his popularity has declined—nobody wants to be the son of a farmer now.

I got interested in the class element of Batman: He’s a rich man who beats up poor people. It’s quite a bizarre mission to go out at night dressed as a bat and punch the hell out of junkies. And then he goes home and lives in this mansion. There’s an aspirational quality to him—he’s an outlaw and he can buy anything. He has a new Batmobile every movie.

[eric922]

Grant Morrison did an interview once where he talked about Superman and Batman:

It seems that Morrison took a lot of inspiration from the original Superman for his current run of Action Comics. I think I even recall someone in issue 1 of Morrison's run commenting that Superman had thrown a wifebeater out a window.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Green Arrow comes to mind. He once shot a shop owner for chasing after a thief who stole from him, because Green Arrow thought charging 4$ for diapers was the real crime. As for the Dark Knight Rises, it's based on Dark Knight Returns, at least in some parts, and Frank Miller has always been a right-wing asshole. Though, Roger Ebert's review did seem to imply that the movie makes it clear that Bane isn't a really an actual hero of 99%, but rather an opportunist.

oh man, "Dark Knight Returns" is my favorite Batman story, hope they throw in plenty of the apocalyptic shit that the graphic novel had.

[eric922]

oh man, "Dark Knight Returns" is my favorite Batman story, hope they throw in plenty of the apocalyptic shit that the graphic novel had.
Dark Knight Returns was a good story, there were just some things that annoyed me. Miller's preaching of his political views detracted from the story, I felt. Also, I didn't like Carrie as Robin. It just seems odd that Bruce would let her join him when she had no training, especially considering the reason he gave up his crusade was guilt over Jason's death. Though, perhaps I should say Rises is inspired by Returns, rather than based. In the same way Year One inspired Begins, and Killing Joke inspired the Dark Knight.

[cynicles]

Ah yes, Green Arrow! I'm surprised he didn't come to mind immediately with his Robbin hoodesque ways. I always felt like Superman was more a way of displacing the anger though instead of hitting on anything the way GA did, very vague and cathartic.

[eric922]

Ah yes, Green Arrow! I'm surprised he didn't come to mind immediately with his Robbin hoodesque ways. I always felt like Superman was more a way of displacing the anger though instead of hitting on anything the way GA did, very vague and cathartic.

Green Arrow is one of my favorite super heroes simply for his political views. I'm really hoping the live action show plays those up. In our current political climate I think they could do some really good things with Green Arrow. If they ignore his political side, they risk turning him into a Batman with a bow.

[Princess Luna]

I don't think Christopher Nolan is inane enough to make a movie about 100% innocent rich people being attack by the lower classes for no reason. Instead I am willing to bet the movie will portray the wealthy as being corrupt but also portray the actions of the 99% as being an over-reaction a both sides are wrong kind of thing. While that is still bullshit, it's not quite in Frank Miller territory yet. Also I recently read the origin story of Bane and his father was involved in failed revolution to over-throw a US puppet regime in the Caribbean and he was imprisoned from birth for his fathers crime, I wonder if that will play into the new movie.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I dream of a game where you play as the guys who aren't AMURRICA STRONG that isn't red faction or involves aliens

[Raúl Duke]

About the Nolan thing, I bet the script will make the whole thing more "complex" than just a simple "anti-populist" message, although the end result may still have "anti-populist" sentiment.

But on the CoD thing, I don't even know what to say exactly. But I'm not so surprised...

But what the article gets wrong is that it's not exactly "pop culture" that has turned against populism, as he states. "Pop culture" is not exactly pop culture, those things are culture created by the top. It's intriguing that now they want to address the issue in the realm of culture but whatever the opinions of this movie, et.al has about all this is not exactly the "popular opinion" (so far, it seems there's increased populist sentiment across the population) but perhaps more an attempt to engage with or even challenge that opinion perhaps to shift it differently.

[eric922]

About the Nolan thing, I bet the script will make the whole thing more "complex" than just a simple "anti-populist" message, although the end result may still have "anti-populist" sentiment.

But on the CoD thing, I don't even know what to say exactly. But I'm not so surprised...

But what the article gets wrong is that it's not exactly "pop culture" that has turned against populism, as he states. "Pop culture" is not exactly pop culture, those things are culture created by the top. It's intriguing that now they want to address the issue in the realm of culture but whatever the opinions of this movie, et.al has about all this is not exactly the "popular opinion" (so far, it seems there's increased populist sentiment across the population) but perhaps more an attempt to engage with or even challenge that opinion perhaps to shift it differently.

Hollywood in general has always, at least to me, seemed out of touch with pop culture. It strongly influences it, yes, but it still seems to be out of touch. Batman is certainly part of popular culture, but that isn't because of Hollywood's movies, its because of the comics. I think that comics are probably a stronger influence on pop culture than Hollywood, because they are more of a niche.

[Jimmie Higgins]

LOL. Forbes Magazine's review of it didn't talk about any political subtext but said that the movies should sweep the oscars.

[Savant]

Ugh, I hate Batman. The character was cool in the early 2000s with the animated series and the comics as well. It seems to me that the majority of Batman "fans" only like the character because of the Christopher Nolan films.

I'll still watch the new film though since I want to see how Nolan wraps up the trilogy. Concerning the article, I don't really see the political undertones in the film from what I've seen of the trailer. However, the Batman character is a part of the bourgeoisie.

[Will Scarlet]

What? the villain in the next COD game is "a hero of the 99%" well I guess after exhausting Nazis, cold war sleeper cells and modern day russian nationalists it only seems logical to move onto demonizing the greatest threat America has ever faced: occupy wallstreet and it's army of unorganized, blindly angry, hippies.

But on the CoD thing, I don't even know what to say exactly. But I'm not so surprised...
Was it Call Of Duty that had, or was going to have, a game where you had to overthrow a leftist leader of Venezuela?

Judging by the names involved in the new 99% game I'm guessing it's still going to be evil foreigners, imperialism is all well and good but mowing down white protestors in New York would probably still be a step too far.

[bcbm]

but mowing down white protestors in New York would probably still be a step too far.

idk that level in the airport was pretty fun

[Os Cangaceiros]

Was it Call Of Duty that had, or was going to have, a game where you had to overthrow a leftist leader of Venezuela?

In Black Ops you get to kill "Castro".

Except it isn't the real Castro. Then the real Castro gloats over your body with some super evil Soviet dude. Best moment in the game, which I thought was pretty shitty overall.

[Rafiq]

The rolling stones said it had reactionary politics. And that's with Liberal standards!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Rafiq]

I dream of a game where you play as the guys who aren't AMURRICA STRONG that isn't red faction or involves aliens

Any crime game

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Rafiq]

The co writer of Batman needs to be against the wall. WTF is up with his fetisization of demonizing the occupy movement?

[Gman]

Who plays COD storyline anyway?

[bcbm]

Who plays COD storyline anyway?

i do i dont have internet at home

or any desire to pay for xbox live


In Black Ops you get to kill "Castro".

Except it isn't the real Castro. Then the real Castro gloats over your body with some super evil Soviet dude. Best moment in the game, which I thought was pretty shitty overall.

yeah i was dissapointed they had to make it like a central story with a main bad guy like all the fucking cod games. i just want to be dropped into random historical black ops missions. the stealthier parts were the most fun i thought

[Comrade Samuel]

I saw the dark knight rises earlier... This was perhaps the most anti-leftist movie I've seen made in the last 20 years. I won't ruin the whole thing for you, you might want to see it yourself to get its full effect.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

It had some hot, but skewed, red terror!
I don't think i'm releasing any major spoilers, but I'll still be courteous
Batman in the film itself isn't fascist or reactionary necessarily, except when the cops are freed. You could definitely say the film, or the director/script-writers, and many other elements within the film, are anti-working class though.

Batman himself is more-or-less redeeming himself and trying to stop the bomb from destroying the city. At no point in the movie is he ever trying to bring down this vilified, and very misguided "revolution." He's simply after Bane, who is out to destroy the city and it's entire population at any cost.
It's like there's two things going on at once:
1) Bruce Wayne is trying to become Batman again and take down Bane, who has intentions on blowing up the city, and
2) there's a "revolution" afoot because Bane let loose the prisoners and got rid of the police.

The film itself portrays liberation and prisoners as bad, and police and prisons as good institutions.
Batman himself though is a total badass. Anne Hathaway stole the show though.

[Tim Finnegan]

Reginald D. Hunter is ahead of us on this.

8l1PMVvfjDM


I dream of a game where you play as the guys who aren't AMURRICA STRONG that isn't red faction or involves aliens
In Skyrim you can launch a protracted people's war against an imperialist regime; Maoist vikings, basically. Ruined just a little bit by the fact that "the people" are all tall blond Aryan fuckers lead by a psychotic racist, but whatever.

[#FF0000]

yo literally just saw batman and there is hardly anything remotely political about it. bane uses some vaguely populist rhetoric at a bunch of people who are very clearly just being held hostage and the rag-tag army of broke-looking motherfuckers is

the league of shadows

basically i'm hella happy that nolan got rid of the political dumbness it seemed he was planning and it was actually p. good despite being pretty weak towards the end.


I saw the dark knight rises earlier... This was perhaps the most anti-leftist movie I've seen made in the last 20 years. I won't ruin the whole thing for you, you might want to see it yourself to get its full effect.

nah you're basically the inverse of those rush limbaugh dummies who think it's a big ol anti-romney movie

[Comrade Samuel]

yo literally just saw batman and there is hardly anything remotely political about it. bane uses some vaguely populist rhetoric at a bunch of people who are very clearly just being held hostage and the rag-tag army of broke-looking motherfuckers is

the league of shadows

basically i'm hella happy that nolan got rid of the political dumbness it seemed he was planning and it was actually p. good despite being pretty weak towards the end.



nah you're basically the inverse of those rush limbaugh dummies who think it's a big ol anti-romney movie

Well one difference between me and them is that I actualy payed money and watched it rather than speculateing on vague information before it's actual release.


It just kinda ruffled my jimmies hearing words and phrases like "revolution" and "will of the people" used by this terible antagonist who wants to just blindly murder whoever meanwhile our hero is a millionaire superhero working with the police to put down the uprising of prisoners and poor people who where trying to create a community that in which they are all equal and govern themselves. The tie-in to the original movie with the league of shadows just seemed kinda like a stupid sub-plot to detract from the whole anti-leftist thing.

But it's probably more likely that your right and I'm just looking for stuff that isn't there, it was late and I wasn't thinking so clearly.

[Ocean Seal]

yo literally just saw batman and there is hardly anything remotely political about it. bane uses some vaguely populist rhetoric at a bunch of people who are very clearly just being held hostage and the rag-tag army of broke-looking motherfuckers is
Yo likewise. But some people that I was with seemed to think that it was political. Kind of about how easily "the people" can be led to take control against their interests. But anyway, there wasn't really anything too much about leftism. Not as good as the DK for me personally. Had some really lulz moments, but I won't post spoilers.

[Rafiq]

Reginald D. Hunter is ahead of us on this.

8l1PMVvfjDM


In Skyrim you can launch a protracted people's war against an imperialist regime; Maoist vikings, basically. Ruined just a little bit by the fact that "the people" are all tall blond Aryan fuckers lead by a psychotic racist, but whatever.

Long live the empire!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[#FF0000]

Well one difference between me and them is that I actualy payed money and watched it rather than speculateing on vague information before it's actual release.

Credit where credit is due.



It just kinda ruffled my jimmies hearing words and phrases like "revolution" and "will of the people" used by this terible antagonist who wants to just blindly murder whoever meanwhile our hero is a millionaire superhero working with the police to put down the uprising of prisoners and poor people who where trying to create a community that in which they are all equal and govern themselves. The tie-in to the original movie with the league of shadows just seemed kinda like a stupid sub-plot to detract from the whole anti-leftist thing.

Yeah some of that I can see but at the same time he's using these words in speeches towards people who are pretty much totally disenfranchised and just being held hostage, you know? And the community of prisoners/poor people thing isn't really true because 1) the prisoners were from Blackgate prison, and were pretty much only related to Gotham City's organized crime circuit, and 2) The only people who took part in the 'uprising' were league of shadows assassins and blackgate thugs.

[Teacher]

Okay I just saw Batman and I don't know how you guys can say that movie is apolitical. It portrays insurrection against the rich as mindless and evil mob rule. It also makes the cops into heroes.

[KurtFF8]

This article was referenced at the recent LFR post on the film

http://leftfilmreview.net/2012/07/20/the-dark-knight-rises-2012/

[eric922]

I saw it last night and thought it was very good. The whole thing with the cops being portrayed as heroes was kind of annoying, but I didn't think Batman himself was portrayed as all that conservative. Oh and Catwoman was very good, I was impressed with her in the movie.


Yes there is Bane with his populist rhetoric of the "people", but in the same breath that he calls upon the people to take back their city from the corrupt elites, he tells them if they try to leave the city he will blow them all up. So the common people aren't being portrayed as even being manipulated into following Bane, they are threatened with a nuclear bomb.

[Ravachol]

Haven't seen the movie but planning to. Dunno when I was like 12 or whatever I read tons of Tom Clancy (talk about reactionary) and all this "I DON'T PLAY BY THE BOOKS TO GET DEM REDS/TERRORISTS" stuff and I still found myself always routing for the 'villains'.

[#FF0000]

Okay I just saw Batman and I don't know how you guys can say that movie is apolitical. It portrays insurrection against the rich as mindless and evil mob rule.

Because there is literally no insurrection against the rich. An army of assassins from the League Of Shadows and thugs from Blackgate (e.g. nothing but the muscle of organized crime in Gotham) take over. "The people" have nothing to do with it.


It also makes the cops into heroes. Guess you missed the end, huh

[#FF0000]

Honestly I think people are ascribing meaning and message where there is none, and are missing out on a whole lot of the meat of the film because of it.

EDIT: also people are sort of talking about things that straight up never happened in the movie.

[cynicles]

I haven't seen the film so I won't comment on it but the idea that something can be politically neutral, really anything, sounds like a load of garbage.

[Positivist]

Well I think the main problem with the Dark Knight Rises and the new cod game is that they suggest that anyone preaching populism is just trying to blow you up.

[Will Scarlet]

nah you're basically the inverse of those rush limbaugh dummies who think it's a big ol anti-romney movie
I can't actually stand to listen to him but from what I've read one of the things he's saying is that Bane sounds like Bain, as in Capital, the sharks Romney worked for. So therefore it's anti-Romney propaganda or something.

That's not wrong because there is no politics to this film, that's wrong because it's the weakest shit in history.


People will be picking apart the politics of the Batman films as they analyse every aspect of it, there is a mixture in there, the individual versus the collective, obviously the idea of the mob is in there, the uncontrollable mob, and the uncontrollable fanatic in terms of Bane himself, I wondered to what extent are you playing into ideas of anticapitalism and protest here?

Chris Nolan: The truth is we just sit down to write a story that we want to see, the only requirement we really have on ourselves as writers is that we're sincere in what we do, so if we're going to write a threat to a major American city we want it to be a real threat, we want it to be something that genuinely frightens us. So the ways in which we attempted to destabilise society create a desperate need for a heroic figure like Batman, they're drawn from our experiences of the real world I guess. As far as political interpretations go it's not surprising to me that people will interpret something like this politically, what is surprising to me is that they seem to do it without any aknowledgement of the fact that other people are interpreting it exactly in the opposite way politically, which must mean something about the assumptions each side is making about what the film is trying to do, and what nobody who is interpreting the film strongly politically seems to get a handle on is the idea that because you have a character do something in a film that the makers of the film are in some way endorsing that attitude, that behaviour, which isn't at all the case at all, it's jsut not the case in drama, it's not what drama is.
I wonder when he had a real experience of crazy assassin ninja guys and an army of released prisoners taking over a city?

[eric922]

yo literally just saw batman and there is hardly anything remotely political about it. bane uses some vaguely populist rhetoric at a bunch of people who are very clearly just being held hostage and the rag-tag army of broke-looking motherfuckers is

the league of shadows

basically i'm hella happy that nolan got rid of the political dumbness it seemed he was planning and it was actually p. good despite being pretty weak towards the end.


You thought the end was weak? I thought the movie had a great ending. Batman dying and Bruce Wayne running off with Selena Kyle and meeting Alfred in the cafe. I thought it was very good. Though "Robin" Blake annoyed me. I wish they would have just used Dick.

[Teacher]

The scenes during Bane's "revolution" reminded me of Western propaganda against the Cultural Revolution in China.

[Positivist]

The scenes during Bane's "revolution" reminded me of Western propaganda against the Cultural Revolution in China.

Same, like with the sentencings?

[¿Que?]

I know we're not supposed to post humor in serious discussions, and also, I haven't really been reading the arguments on this thread.

Nonetheless, I thought this was a good place to share this. Someone posted it as a response to Boots Riley, who linked to the same Salon article on his facebook page.

Pretty hilarious if you ask me, and definitely on point!

6yjI5238Zxc

[eric922]

I know we're not supposed to post humor in serious discussions, and also, I haven't really been reading the arguments on this thread.

Nonetheless, I thought this was a good place to share this. Someone posted it as a response to Boots Riley, who linked to the same Salon article on his facebook page.

Pretty hilarious if you ask me, and definitely on point!

6yjI5238Zxc
This is essentially an argument about comic books, I'm not sure you can get any less serious.

[human strike]

I don't mind reactionary films so much when they're subtle and entertaining, Dark Knight Rises however... Politics aside, it was a bad film, and there's no excuse for that.

[#FF0000]

The scenes during Bane's "revolution" reminded me of Western propaganda against the Cultural Revolution in China.

Yup. But beyond that there really wasn't much in the way of politics, especially since Bane had no real politics to speak of.


You thought the end was weak? I thought the movie had a great ending. Batman dying and Bruce Wayne running off with Selena Kyle and meeting Alfred in the cafe. I thought it was very good. Though "Robin" Blake annoyed me. I wish they would have just used Dick.

The entire second half was weak, I thought, and I really wanted Bruce Wayne to be dead. "Alfred needs closure" my friend protested. The mushroom cloud in Gotham Bay should've been all the closure Alfred needed, imo.

The only part in the movie that I thought was actually bad was the whole army of cops with fists and semi-auto pistols running into the ak-toting army of assassins and not getting mowed down instantly.

[#FF0000]

Dark Knight Rises however... Politics aside, it was a bad film, and there's no excuse for that.

how

[eric922]

Yup. But beyond that there really wasn't much in the way of politics, especially since Bane had no real politics to speak of.



The entire second half was weak, I thought, and I really wanted Bruce Wayne to be dead. "Alfred needs closure" my friend protested. The mushroom cloud in Gotham Bay should've been all the closure Alfred needed, imo.

The only part in the movie that I thought was actually bad was the whole army of cops with fists and semi-auto pistols running into the ak-toting army of assassins and not getting mowed down instantly.

Yeah, the fact that the cops won that one really makes me question Ra's training methods. Maybe Bruce was fluke.

[#FF0000]

Yeah, the fact that the cops won that one really makes me question Ra's training methods. Maybe Bruce was fluke.

Not to mention the fact that I was seeing a whole lot of assassins giving up and submitting to arrest at the end there. Not sure if that'd happen.

But yeah. I was reading an article today and found a quote from Grant Morrison about Batman.

"Batman was the ultimate capitalist hero… a millionaire who vented his childlike fury on the criminal classes of the lower orders” in his “obsessive, impossible quest to punch crime into extinction"

So, Grant Morrison, one of my favorite writers and himself writer of some hella good Batman, says Rafiq is right.

I don't feel anything anymore.

[Teacher]

Given the factional flame wars that happen on this board it is kinda funny that we are all being so respectful about not spoiling a movie plot to each other.

[eric922]

Given the factional flame wars that happen on this board it is kinda funny that we are all being so respectful about not spoiling a movie plot to each other.
Hell, I find it funny we even have spoilers tag on this site. Was there a major problem with people spoiling the ending to Capital?

[eric922]

Not to mention the fact that I was seeing a whole lot of assassins giving up and submitting to arrest at the end there. Not sure if that'd happen.

But yeah. I was reading an article today and found a quote from Grant Morrison about Batman.

"Batman was the ultimate capitalist hero… a millionaire who vented his childlike fury on the criminal classes of the lower orders” in his “obsessive, impossible quest to punch crime into extinction"

So, Grant Morrison, one of my favorite writers and himself writer of some hella good Batman, says Rafiq is right.

I don't feel anything anymore.

I kind of feel dead inside too, but we still have current Superman and Green Arrow. I'm going to go read more about him shooting shop owners, that will make me feel better and maybe stare at the image of Superman throwing a banker out a window. Honestly, though I highly doubt the "capitalist hero" was intentional on the part of the creators. Rather, I'm sure they just needed a way to explain how Batman gets all those wonderful toys. Of course, honestly I don't think it matters that Batman is a capitalist, I mean it is a comic book meant for entertainment. If you are getting your political views from a comic book, you probably need to rethink your views.

[Red Commissar]

Christopher Nolan comments on the discussion about the political background to the movie:

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/christopher-nolan-dark-knight-rises-isn-t-political-20120720

Christopher Nolan: 'Dark Knight Rises' Isn’t Political

Despite echoes of Occupy Wall Street in finale of Nolan’s Batman trilogy, director argues he has no particular message

by: Rolling Stone

In the new issue of Rolling Stone on newsstands today, Dark Knight Rises director Christopher Nolan denies that his film is intended to convey an anti-Occupy Wall Street message – and insists that none of his Batman films are intended to be political.* Here's an excerpt from Brian Hiatt's interview with the filmmaker.

In the new movie, you have Bane more or less trick Gotham's 99 percent into rising up against the rich – is that intended as an anti-Occupy Wall Street statement?

I've had as many conversations with people who have seen the film the other way round. We throw a lot of things against the wall to see if it sticks. We put a lot of interesting questions in the air, but that's simply a backdrop for the story. What we're really trying to do is show the cracks of society, show the conflicts that somebody would try to wedge open. We're going to get wildly different interpretations of what the film is supporting and not supporting, but it's not doing any of those things. It's just telling a story. If you're saying, “Have you made a film that's supposed to be criticizing the Occupy Wall Street movement?” – well, obviously, that's not true.

But the movie certainly suggests that there's a great danger of populist movements being pushed too far.

If the populist movement is manipulated by somebody who is evil, that surely is a criticism of the evil person. You could also say the conditions the evil person is exploiting are problematic and should be addressed.

You must have your own opinions on all this.

Oh, I've got all sorts of opinions, but this isn't what we're doing here. I love when people get interested in the politics of it, when they see something in it that moves them in some way. But I'm not being disingenuous when I say that we write from a place of “What's the worst thing our villain Bane can do? What are we most afraid of?” He's going to come in and turn our world upside down. That has happened to other societies throughout history, many times, so why not here? Why not Gotham? We want something that moves people and gets under the skin.

Some people would say, inherently, from the beginning, that Batman is a right-wing character, who establishes law and order by pummeling criminals with his fists.

Yes, if you assume Gotham is the same as a place like New York City, but that's not the case. The corruption that drives Bruce Wayne to become Batman is very extreme. So, you know, your concept of “Does the end justify the means?” shifts according to the backdrop. And so the challenge of Batman Begins was to make us OK with the idea of vigilantism. The films genuinely aren't intended to be political. You don't want to alienate people, you want to create a universal story.

A lot of people would argue that all art is political.
But what's politics?

So would Bruce Wayne vote for Mitt Romney?
Before or after Bruce goes broke?

So yeah, he more or less sidesteps political messages in movies, it but he's not willing to embrace the anti-occupy message.

However, I think the whole use of the demagogue manipulating populist movements to their own ends is more a common plot device, for better or worse. That comes out in a lot of stuff released nowadays, and in the past too.

I think there's also the other matter that for better or worse we're not going to to find much cultural products that are "friendly" to our views, much less of those produced by Hollywood. Not really going to get you anywhere being hung up on these things in a movie.

Edit: Not that I'm making excuses for this kind of messages in movies in the first place.

[KurtFF8]

Nolan's defense of it as non-political is quite weak here though. Here's an explanation of analyzing the politics of the film on the LFR site:

After seeing posters for The Dark Knight Rises all over town, I had been anticipating a film that contains serious commentary on social change and revolutionary struggle. One possibility that I had considered was that this was a marketing ploy to capitalize on the past year of protest and revolution to get folks to see the film, yet after seeing it Thursday morning: it certainly does take the subject seriously. The only problem of course is that The Dark Knight Rises is what could be described as an anti-revolutionary, anti-populist, conservative film. That may sound a bit off-putting, but if we analyze the film as a political intervention, or rather a film that seriously deals with politics, then a political analysis and response is appropriate.

From here http://leftfilmreview.net/2012/07/20/the-dark-knight-rises-2012/

It was also flattering to have the article attacked here http://getrealphilippines.com/blog/2012/07/the-dark-knight-rises-an-intellectually-satisfying-finale/

[pluckedflowers]

I liked this review (http://jacobinmag.com/blog/2012/07/the-dark-knight-is-no-capitalist/) over at the Jacobin:


‘The Dark Knight’ is No Capitalist…
… he’s something much worse. Using the French Revolution for inspiration, the Nolans have restaged the bourgeois revolution, but in reverse. They want you to stand with the monarchists.

[human strike]

It's essentially a shit modern remake of Fritz Lang's Metropolis. Dark Knight Rises, like Metropolis, is ideologically fascist. This, imo, is only reinforced by Nolan's attempts to be "unpolitical".

[Red Commissar]

Nolan's defense of it as non-political is quite weak here though.

I didn't say it was a good defense, that's why I said he "sidestepped" it. I posted it for the sake of getting different angles and input on this conversation. I don't deny that there's alot of those messages there, it's just good (IMO) that he notices that claims of these kinds of messages weren't unnoticed by people. I think the whole idea of someone trying to be "apolitical" is impossible- the only difference among movies in their possible political undertones is how important they are to the movie and how obvious they maybe.

I personally don't care much for the anti-populist themes in a lot of movies, books, etc. The whole idea of popular movements being manipulated by a demagogue to some selfish objective of his own is very cynical and condescending on such drives to improve one's lot in society. That just invites another question- what should people do in such a case? Just shut up and be grateful for how things are going at the present? Be it the conspiratorial rantings about who is "behind" *insert protest movement* or moralizing about mob rule, it's spilled over from political discussion to cultural products. I mean, even as the second review you posted said after ranting about "Marxist" commentators on the movie, it instantly brings up the old and favorite cases of Robespierre, Napoleon, Stalin, etc. hijacking or "twisting" a movement to their own goals.

I've not seen this movie though, I'm just giving a general opinion on those kinds of messages that come up.

[KurtFF8]

I didn't meant to suggest you were defending his point of view.


I mean, even as the second review you posted said after ranting about "Marxist" commentators on the movie, it instantly brings up the old and favorite cases of Robespierre, Napoleon, Stalin, etc. hijacking or "twisting" a movement to their own goals.

Hey now, the reviews they claimed were Marxist were actually written by Marxists

[Red Commissar]

Hey now, the reviews they claimed were Marxist were actually written by Marxists

Oh, Ok, I thought he was making a general brush like people throw around the word "Communist" in the United States. I know the leftfilmreview he linked to was a Marxist outlet, but it's not just been "Marxists" who've been criticizing this- similar articles have come up in places like the Guardian and the Exiled.

[Tim Finnegan]

Fritz Lang's Metropolis [...] is ideologically fascist.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/images/smilies/imported/unimpressed.gif

[human strike]

Come at me, bro. :tt2: