STOP EDL! - Stockholm 4th August

[aty]

STOP EDL!

Where: Stockholm
When: 4th of August

With the acts of terror committed in Norway on the 22nd of July 2011, Anders Behring Breivik shocked the whole world. How can a seemingly ordinary norwegian man decide to take the lives of 77 young people? Pretty soon it was clear that Breivik didn’t act in a political vacuum. The conspiracy-theories about the so-called Cultural Marxists’ conscient support of an “islamisation” of Europe at the expense of traditional christian values were not conceived by him alone. Breivik’s context, the anti-muslim “Counterjihad movement”, is a loosely coherent milieu of intellectual bloggers, anti-muslim hooligans and right-wing populist parties throughout Europe. They want to take on the struggle over public opinion, electoral votes – and the streets.

In 2009 the “English Defence League” was launched in Luton, England in an attempt to mobilise an anti-muslim sentiment as a movement on the streets. In the beginning they managed to mobilise a few thousand participants to their provocative and confrontational marches through areas in England with a big muslim population. This year the number of participants on EDL’s marches have decreased drastically from a few thousands to a few hundreds, but the organizers behind EDL and others in the international anti-muslim milieu are now aiming to make the movement take root in other parts of Europe than England.

As the attempts to launch a Swedish equivalent, the “Swedish Defence League”, haven’t been succesful, the English leadership is now taking control. One year after Breivik’s massacre they will make another attempt – this time they want to found a global counterjihad network. On August 4th, EDL and the Counterjihad movement “Stop Islamisation of Nations” (SION) are holding an international manifestation in Stockholm with all the anti-muslim top names. The same day as the Pride parade swirls through the city. Their goal is to use Pride as a Trojan horse, to appropriate public space in order to spread their distorted right wing extremist views. With a rhetoric and an imagery derived from the crusades of the middle ages, these racists and right wing extremists should be confined to the history books. Let us in unity show the world that we refuse to accept the march of Breivik’s troops in our city.


Contact information:
Page: http://stoppaedl.org/

Press, [email protected]

Others, [email protected]

Facebook, http://www.facebook.com/events/464418976910774/

(http://www.facebook.com/events/464418976910774/)Twitter, http://twitter.com/stoppaedl

[Tim Cornelis]

Their little Amsterdam trip was a huge failure, I expect not much more of this.

[aty]

Their little Amsterdam trip was a huge failure, I expect not much more of this.
It could be said that on their trip in Århus, Denmark, Tommy Robinson announced they were coming to Malmö in Sweden next.
The leader of Swedish Defence League yesterday admitted it would be nearly impossible for them to arrange a meeting in Malmö. So they have choosen Stockholm for the first international counterjihad-meeting with the whole movement in place in Stockholm.


http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/553093_387586371308180_980702791_n.jpg

[NoPasaran1936]

I seriously hope this provokes a massive anti-fascist response, and a physical response at that.

[aty]

This is the same day as the Pride parade in Stockholm. It usually attracts tens of thousands so there will be a lot of people in the city this day.

The EDL will gather only a few hundred meters away from the Pride-parades park.

[Sasha]

Wasn't this (go global etc) exactly what they claimed they where going to do in both amsterdam and aarhus? All catastrophic failures for them... I have all faith in our swedish comrades dusting up what i expect to be about 20 wanabe hardmen keeping another 30 utter loonies company..

[aty]

I think the Amsterdam and Århus was just to create contacts. This time in Stockholm it is the real thing with all the main players from the US, Australia and Europe coming togheter.

The "intellectuals" of the movement will be those holding the speeches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spencer_%28author%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Geller


This is it if we really want to stop this fascist movement spreading all over Europe. If this is a huge failure there is no going forward for them because it takes a lot of time and effort to bring all the defence leagues in the world together and all the main players from US and Europe.

[Sasha]

Last times they also claimed all kinds of "leaders" would attent, it turned out some never got invited, most declined, in the end it was tommy for five minutes and not much else..
Ofcourse we should smash them with utmost determination, but ridicule might be more effective than madd violence by now..

[Anarchist Skinhead]

little bit of violence never hurt anybody :)

[Will Scarlet]

They have to go abroad to "defend England" because England doesn't want them, classic.

[aty]

Today this reached the mainstream political debate in Sweden. The tags #Pride and #EDL have been trending all day also...

Anarchopride have long worked against the de-politicization of Pride in Sweden and this have caused some big conflicts this year with the liberals. Also involving right wing ministers.

So today this article in the conservative newspaper SVD blamed "the extreme-left" for making Pride in Stockholm cancel an event showing an Israeli documentary about "coming out as a jew".
And they basically said that it was the extreme left that was the big threat against Pride today and not the extreme right. With the lefts demonstrations against the military and police taking part in Pride and those not having an anticapitalist agenda.
Now it turns out that it was an israeli PR-firm that is heavily involved in arms trade "JKL" who wants to show this documentary and they were still having conversations with Pride about where this should happen.

So, to sum it up. EDL, an extreme right wing organisation wants to have a demonstration at the same time as Pride in Stockholm with people high up in the US Israeli-lobby taking part. The israeli PR-firm "JKL" orchestrates a conflict and tip of the right wing newspaper SVD and suddenly it is the left wing that is the enemy against Pride.

At the same time as it is the fascist hooligans in EDL that wants to use Pride for its own sick causes. This practically happens on the one year anniversary of the fellow EDL-follower Breiviks madness in Norway....

Fucked up. But glad that Anarchopride is finally having the balls to say goodbye to the official Pride and telling everybody to come and throw rocks at EDL in celebration of Stonewall. :)

[Sasha]

little bit of violence never hurt anybody :)


sure, the hardcore, the now and future streetfighters should be dealth with decisively and swiftly (but may i suggest also as discretely as possible, as every one ever been on either side of attacks knows, a sillent, unexpected, and unexplained attack is way more demoralising and effective than one that follows lots of chestbeating and giving it the big one, then it will be expected and far more easy to rationalise away with "it could have been worse" or "we stood our ground" etc etc), but one should also not hesitate to deploy the weapon of riducle to frame them for the usefull idiots of the actually already dangerous anti-imigrant right that they are, as discussed in this sub-forum before exposing english C18 as the ragtag collection of drunk nonces who werent able to organise a piss up in a brewery that they where turned out to be far more effective that the mythologysing them as aryan top-boy terrorist warriors ready to unleash the nazi-revolution that they never where by searchlight/mi5/labour ever was.

[NoPasaran1936]

This is the same day as the Pride parade in Stockholm. It usually attracts tens of thousands so there will be a lot of people in the city this day.

The EDL will gather only a few hundred meters away from the Pride-parades park.

The EDL have a thing for turning up at the same time as Pride parades, as recently as Bristol's pride...

[Sasha]

The EDL have a thing for turning up at the same time as Pride parades, as recently as Bristol's pride...

Probably patological, anything with the word "pride" in it they just have to be there... :D

[Delenda Carthago]

Boy, Europe is so much different than Greece...:confused:

[aty]

Don't let the racist EDL stop our annual Vuvuzela Concert

Dear friends of the Royal Swedish Vuvuzela Orchestra,
The annual summer concert will take place in downtown Stockholm on the 4th of August, 14 o'clock. As usual the concert is open for everyone, and you are all very welcome to play together with the professionals. We hope to see you for a nice day in the sun!

Unfortunately we have learned that a gang of tonedeaf muslimhaters want to disturb the concert with some kind of out-of-tune manifestation. This seems most regrettable. Because of this it is important that many people participate - the summer tradition must not be discontinued!

Regarding your e-mails, some hand-picked works will be performed on the 4th, and yes: the popular improvisation session will be granted loads of time this year!
It's our jubilee, so dress accordingly!

Best Wishes,
Royal Swedish Vuvuzela Orchestra
Director Valdemar Ledin
[email protected]
https://www.facebook.com/events/119289461548869/

[aty]

Between populism and fascism - the extreme rights new strategies

The nationalistic right has changed its appearance. A new form of populism has entered the parlaments, in the debate and on the streets. They claim to defend western liberal freedoms, are concerned about the abuse of women and gays, advocating freedom of speech. Then they enforce closed borders and deportations, create vigilante groups and promote street terror, chasing scapegoats and directing their hatred against the "enemy within" in the form of "political correctness", feminism and left politics. Just as traditional fascism always have.

What distinguishes the new extreme right of the old? What is the interplay between the established populist right and the fascist street movements? What is their potential for impact in a crisis ridden Europe? And what forms of resistance is possible and effective against them?

This questions we will adress at the Free Theater in Högdalen. In short, illustrative interventions will antifascist journalists, activists and researchers highlight some features of the new fascism that is taking shape in Europe.

The seminar is organized by the Research Group in collaboration with the Centre for Marxist Social Studies in Stockholm. It will be broadcast online at Planka.fm.

Block 1: Counter Jihad
- Islamophobia ♥ anti-feminism [Research Group of Sweden]
- Anti-Muslim pinkwashing [Queers Against pinkwashing, Gothenburg]
- Neo-Nazi and Islamophobes - the two extrem rights in Denmark [Redox, Denmark]

Block 2: Fascism and populism
- Denmark: How The Danish People's Party came to set the agenda on immigration [Tobias Alm, writer AntifaInfoblatt Germany]
- Finland: from metapolitics to parliament - Suomen Sisu, Hommaforum and True Finns [Li Andersson, writer Finland]
- Italian Anomaly - metapolitics, social centers of the right and populism [Zona Autonoma Milano, Italy]

https://www.facebook.com/events/266117496834351/

[Sasha]

https://www.facebook.com/events/119289461548869/

Thats fucking brilliant...

[Sentinel]

I seriously hope this provokes a massive anti-fascist response

The RS will naturally take part in the counter demo. Unfortunately, I can't attend personally as I'm working, but make no mistake -- these people will not feel welcome in Stockholm.

[aty]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/553624_429426847109736_1154488445_n.jpg

https://twitter.com/Official_EDL/status/229155387755069441
https://twitter.com/Official_EDL/status/229582462299291648

:lol:

[aty]

Royal Swedish Vuvuzela Orchestra outside the british embassy to protest EDL interrupting an annual swedish tradition!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYDh5P4PjJ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYDh5P4PjJ0)

[aty]

I encourage everyone with twitter to use the tag #stoppaedl and retweet stuff during the day :)

https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/629329039.jpg?key=640292&Expires=1343956751&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=0qdrwq%7E-Ml74OEfJvbWwC1ZEOQdu1C-vLMAz5dhf6FQcEHdAoxDJLI%7EzcC7A6g-rCNCMWv9mLWSbiRAvMok%7E%7EohII3IPmCMoZf-u7lNVSK9Vk5672kBOdGCuzIPQesobkhA68uuDK8dv56H7I70fr BTRSg8-k4r7nqRSOM8QDdY_

[pastradamus]

What are the EDL doing in Stockholm?

[Crux]

What are the EDL doing in Stockholm?
"Counter-Jihad" congress.

also:
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/561305_431305733588514_1623171646_n.jpg

Oh an dirigent "Valdemar Ledin" I see what you did there!

[Olentzero]

I am currently sitting in a bar in downtown Stockholm having a beer and going over the events of thos afternoon. Suffice it to say I consider the evebt to be an unmitigated disaster and I lay the blame solely at the feet of tbe Black Bloc.

The rally started out nicely at about 1:00 PM with a sound truck and several speakers who had the crowd in a very good mood. At 2:00 PM the rally ended and the crown turned to face the EDL event a couple hundred meters away; many had vuvuzelas and noisemakers while others jeered and chanted.

It was then that these irresponsible jackasses in the crowd started throwing homemade explosives and firecrackers over the heads of the police, which caused them to don their riot gear and pull out the billyclubs. The barrage didn't stop; the cops called in the horses and started pushing us back.

Many people, including me, locked arms and did our best to stand fast, but once the horses started bearing down on us it was all over. People broke backwards and tried to get out of the area as quickly as they could. I didn't see anyone get hurt in the rush; if nobody actually got hurt it was a miracle.

For about fifteen minutes the explosions kept up and the cops cleared the counterdemo area, the park behind it, and the surrounding streets. Utter chaos.

So congratulations, you bandana-wearing fucks. You swung your dicks around anonymously and brought down the wrath of the cops on some 500 unsuspecting people, exposing them unnecessarily to the risk of arrest and/or injury and certainly causing them to think twice about coming down to the next anti-fascist demonstration. Oh, and nice job threatening people who were taking pictures.

Fuck you and your 'propaganda of the deed'. All you did was fuck everything up.

[Sasha]

"unsuspecting people", sorry but you are talking about an antifa action in Sweden, shit always goes down there. Now don't get me wrong, it sucks to be caught up in violence if it gets you nowhere but anyone not suspecting substantial violence at an Swedish antifa action from either the fash, the cops or the antifa has been living under a rock for the last 3 decades and shouldn't have been there to begin with...

[Crux]

There's this thing called tactics...
And I don't think the minority who were there to throw shit at the cops has a right to mess thing's up. Now I wasn't there, but I've been on plenty of demo's, yes with blac blockers present too, that have not ended up that way.

[Sasha]

There's this thing called tactics...
And I don't think the minority who were there to throw shit at the cops has a right to mess thing's up. Now I wasn't there, but I've been on plenty of demo's, yes with blac blockers present too, that have not ended up that way.

hey, i totally agree.
but anti-fascism is serious buisness, and in sweden certainly some of the most serious. any people going to any political action, and certainly confrontative anti-fascist action should always expect violence.
and when your fash have a history of both mass street violence and terror campaings and you have antifa groups like Revolutionära Fronten that make even AFA look tame hippies by comparison at times you should assume shit wil hit the fan. it might be counter effective and stupid violence and one should always hope stupid and counter effective violence (opposed to non-stupid and effective violence) takes a day off but if you didnt expect it you shouldnt have been there.

and yes, if shit goes down you stop filming anything but the cops... if you take pictures of comrades that break the law you should be happy you didnt get your camera broken...

[Sasha]

anyway, according to the only english languaged news report i haver found the EDL meeting atracted less that two hundred, the counterdemo much more, good work....
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Sweden_counter-jihad_rally_outnumbered_by_anti-racists.html?cid=33245130

and i must say 15 minutes of ear splitting firework in the edl demo does gives me hope for some entertaining video footage....

[Crux]

hey, i totally agree.
but anti-fascism is serious buisness, and in sweden certainly some of the most serious. any people going to any political action, and certainly confrontative anti-fascist action should always expect violence.
and when your fash have a history of both mass street violence and terror campaings and you have antifa groups like Revolutionära Fronten that make even AFA look tame hippies by comparison at times you should assume shit wil hit the fan. it might be counter effective and stupid violence and one should always hope stupid and counter effective violence (opposed to non-stupid and effective violence) takes a day off but if you didnt expect it you shouldnt have been there.
I reitirate there's this thing called tactics. I've been on antifascist demos with RF too. Saying "that's just the way it is" is simply neither accurate nor an excuse. Oh and the Swedish Defense League are a fucking joke. Anyone know if they were the only swedish attendees on the EDL side?

Also if shit goes down because of police provocation that's one thing, but doesn't appear to have been the case here. The blac bloc do not have a right to fuck shit up and it's not good for anyone. If they really really wanted to get at the EDL, pick them off after the demo. Don't engage in boring fetishism at the expense of everyone else, including the demo as such. Just saying.

[Olentzero]

any people going to any political action, and certainly confrontative anti-fascist action should always expect violence.Which just keeps the people who don't agree 100% with your tactics from coming to anti-fascist demonstrations. So it ends up just being you bandana-wearing idiots pretending you're heroes of the revolution.
and yes, if shit goes down you stop filming anything but the cops... if you take pictures of comrades that break the law you should be happy you didnt get your camera broken...Fucking thug. Your tactics are a dead end.

[Olentzero]

Anyone know if they were the only swedish attendees on the EDL side?I couldn't get a good look at who was in the audience for the EDL rally - like I said, we were a couple hundred meters away - but I heard later on that the EDL speakers took the two Swedish speakers off the list. Can't confirm that one, though.

[Crux]

SDL has little potential to grow I think, because the Nazis won't touch them due to their extremely pro-Israel position and the Sweden Democrats want nothing to do with them because they have enough problems coming off as "respectable" already.

[Sasha]

Which just keeps the people who don't agree 100% with your tactics from coming to anti-fascist demonstrations. So it ends up just being you bandana-wearing idiots pretending you're heroes of the revolution.Fucking thug. Your tactics are a dead end.

As compared to standing around and saying "bad nazis!" from behind a police line? What did that ever accomplish?
That's not even an tactic....

[Crux]

As compared to standing around and saying "bad nazis!" from behind a police line? What did that ever accomplish?
That's not even an tactic....
We've driven away nazis before simply by surrounding them, several times, whereas the "throw shit at them" tactics has considerable less good record of success and usually ends up with the cops attacking the counterdemo, arresting people etc.

[Olentzero]

As compared to standing around and saying "bad nazis!" from behind a police line? What did that ever accomplish?
That's not even an tactic....Kept the KKK in Annapolis, MD from being heard at all and demoralized them so much they haven't been back to try again since 1997.

Prevented the World Church of the Creator from marching on the White House in Washington, DC and demoralized them so much we haven't heard shit from them since 2002.

Both times there were no firecrackers or stupid provocative stunts from the Black Bloc, and both times there were several thousand counterdemonstrators who didn't hear "boo" from the police the whole time. In fact the DC march (which must have been about 2,000-3,000 people) convinced the cops to let us through the barrier they'd set up and occupy the park where the WCC (all four of them that showed up at the staging point in Virginia) was to have demonstrated.

Both times a safe place for people to come out and shout down the racists and Nazis.

Unlike Saturday, where a group of us from the RS had to make sure one of our comrades - a political asylum seeker from China who is currently awaiting permission to stay - got out of the melee safely so he didn't get swept up by the cops. How do you think it would have gone for him if he'd been arrested? How do you think it would have gone for him back in China if he'd been deported because of the arrest? Is that something you'd even care to think about, or is tossing your latest experiment from the Cookbook more important?

[Sasha]

So ehm, how many times exactly do I need to say i dont support unnescecary, reckless, counterproductive violence before you lay of the strawmans? One would think me saying it in abour evwey single post in this thread should be enough...
I just say your naitivity is just as fucking dangerous and reckless. It's not that the cops ever need an excuse to beat or arrest anyone and it could just as easy have been that the real nazis would have siezed on the opportunity to jump some commiescum or throw some improvised explosives of their own.
stepping in these kind of actions naive is at least as dangerous as going in rambo style.

Oh, and you cant get deported to china, China doesnt take back illegals not even refugees, not that that was your point but at least get your facts straight for your strawmans..

[Olentzero]

So ehm, how many times exactly do I need to say i dont support unnescecary, reckless, counterproductive violence before you lay of the strawmans?I don't need strawmen, you're making my arguments for me. Like this one:
if you take pictures of comrades that break the law you should be happy you didnt get your camera broken...Destruction of personal property: unnecessary, reckless, and counterproductive violence, in response to people reacting to other unnecessary, reckless, and counterproductive violence - namely chucking firecrackers at the cops.

Cops don't generally need an excuse to attack demonstrations, we know this, but that doesn't mean they're *always* going to attack demonstrations, and it certainly doesn't mean that Black Bloc anarchists have leeway to provide them with a reason.

Whether or not China accepts deportees or refugees is irrelevant - the point is that Sweden would no longer be a place our comrade would be permitted to stay if he got arrested in the sweep following the Black Bloc rioting. Life isn't easy for him now but at least it's somewhat stable and routine, and the Black Bloc shenanigans put that all at risk. But sure, it's just one Chinese guy, what does he matter? We gotta show how badass we are and how much of a threat we are to society, so we gotta throw these firecrackers.

[Crux]

So ehm, how many times exactly do I need to say i dont support unnescecary, reckless, counterproductive violence before you lay of the strawmans? One would think me saying it in abour evwey single post in this thread should be enough...
I just say your naitivity is just as fucking dangerous and reckless. It's not that the cops ever need an excuse to beat or arrest anyone and it could just as easy have been that the real nazis would have siezed on the opportunity to jump some commiescum or throw some improvised explosives of their own.
stepping in these kind of actions naive is at least as dangerous as going in rambo style.

Oh, and you cant get deported to china, China doesnt take back illegals not even refugees, not that that was your point but at least get your facts straight for your strawmans..
I get that you're not cheerleading this particular action, psycho, but the thing is you are still failing to see why the strategy is shit.
See if the nazis, or the cops for that matter, had been actively attacking the demo we don't oppose self-defence, hell we've had to fend off nazi's before although those attacks usually happen either when we're just having our ordinary activity or after demo's. See, even the fash usually have sense not to employ a tactic that gets them carted off by the cops in no time. So we're not being naive and your argument is just as much of a straw man.

Uh yes they can. It was only recently that the swedish government decided to temporarily stop deportations of Uigurs back to China. And this is not just a point about China, actively bringing down police repression on a demo, such as these pointless throwing shit-tactic tend to do, is endangering anyone in the demo who is without papers, have a warrant on them or any other thing that might land them in serious trouble. And it's on those who choose to employ such tactics that are acting to endangering people in such a way. So again, some people really really need to get a clue about tactic's and not act out bullshit fetishism to make them feel good about themselves. For all the talk of "diversity of tactics" I usually see very little actual tactics being employed when such an approach is used.

Case in point would be during one of the demos during COP15, what did the brave streetfighters of the blac bloc do when the police attacked? They scattered, to do "chaos" (their words not mine) elsewhere and left the demo to fend for itself.

[Sasha]

I don't need strawmen, you're making my arguments for me. Like this one:Destruction of personal property: unnecessary, reckless, and counterproductive violence, in response to people reacting to other unnecessary, reckless, and counterproductive violence - namely chucking firecrackers at the cops.

Cops don't generally need an excuse to attack demonstrations, we know this, but that doesn't mean they're *always* going to attack demonstrations, and it certainly doesn't mean that Black Bloc anarchists have leeway to provide them with a reason.

Whether or not China accepts deportees or refugees is irrelevant - the point is that Sweden would no longer be a place our comrade would be permitted to stay if he got arrested in the sweep following the Black Bloc rioting. Life isn't easy for him now but at least it's somewhat stable and routine, and the Black Bloc shenanigans put that all at risk. But sure, it's just one Chinese guy, what does he matter? We gotta show how badass we are and how much of a threat we are to society, so we gotta throw these firecrackers.


you see, thats not how this works, you either principally accept an diversity of actions and then you are entitled to an debate wheter in this specific case violent tactics (and i dont consider throwing some fireworks really violent but i'll let that debate slide for the moment) where the best tactics considering the target, the crowd, the circumstances etc etc but you have no more right to demand 100% non-violence any more than the gungho rambo's have the right to demand 100% violence. even less, as pacifist tactics provenly serve only the state and enforce racist, patriarchal privilige; http://www.agamsterdam.org/teksten/how-nonviolence-protects-the-state/
if you going to demand blanket pacifism you can sodd off and play pretend at anti-fascist activism somewhere else.
tactics; violent, non-violent or a diversity there off are an personal choice, people choosing violent tactics should never enforce their tacticts (and where in their controll its consequences) on people choosing non-violent tactics but that goes both ways.
the radical block/actions should stay outside of less-radical blocks/actions unless invited there but you can never enforce your non-violence on people outside your block/action.
if you do, or if you for example photograph fellow activists without their consent i would consider that person at that moment an tool of oppression/extension of the state and therefor an legitimate target.

[Crux]

you see, thats not how this works, you either principally accept an diversity of actions and then you are entitled to an debate wheter in this specific case violent tactics (and i dont consider throwing some fireworks really violent but i'll let that debate slide for the moment) where the best tactics considering the target, the crowd, the circumstances etc etc but you have no more right to demand 100% non-violence any more than the gungho rambo's have the right to demand 100% violence. even less, as pacifist tactics provenly serve only the state and enforce racist, patriarchal privilige; http://www.agamsterdam.org/teksten/how-nonviolence-protects-the-state/
if you going to demand blanket pacifism you can sodd off and play pretend at anti-fascist activism somewhere else.
tactics; violent, non-violent or a diversity there off are an personal choice, people choosing violent tactics should never enforce their tacticts (and where in their controll its consequences) on people choosing non-violent tactics but that goes both ways.
the radical block/actions should stay outside of less-radical blocks/actions unless invited there but you can never enforce your non-violence on people outside your block/action.
if you do, or if you for example photograph fellow activists without their consent i would consider that person at that moment an tool of oppression/extension of the state and therefor an legitimate target.
First off, from the report the comrades just posted from the demo the fireworks damaged none of the EDL thugs, 1 cop and several other anti-EDL demonstrators. Again a "diversity of tactics" implies that actual tactics should be used, thinking tactically is not throwing fireworks that give the cops an excuse to crack down on the demo and that also ended up directly damaging other demonstrators. We're not pacifists, and indeed we have been on demo's where liberal pacifists have tried to stop a breaching of police lines, and not such perpetrated by a minority black bloc "vanguard" but by either a significant minority or even a majority of the demo's.

I also disagree that tactics on a demo are a personal choice, because that implies a lack of responsibility either for the wannabe rambos or for, as has also been the case in some instances self-appointed cops punching frontline demonstrators in the face because they thought they were being too aggressive. Tactics should be collective and they should be evaluated, that's what makes them tactics. If a tactic, like lobbing stuff at the cops from the safety of standing behind the rest of the demo, has been proven to fail again and again we have a responsibility to evaluate and criticize those tactics. And speaking of self-appointed cops, it is no coincidence that police provocateurs too tend to employ "blac bloc" tactics, not implying that this was the case on this demo, but as you should be well aware, comrade, has been the case on other demos. That should tell you something about the viability of such tactics. A dozen people throwing stuff at the police at a 5-700 strong counter-demo against the EDL is not a diversity of tactics, it is a complete lack of tactics, it is akin to shooting yourself in the foot, it is enforcing a fetish rather than a tactic on the other 487-687 participants. And, again, in this case hurt more counter demonstrators (several, I haven't got an exact number for you yet) than fascists (0). And this is not accepting that even if some of the fireworks had reached the EDL, than that would have meant the action justifiable.

Is our goal to drive away the fascists or is it to feel good about ourselves, either by liberal pacifism or riot fetischism?

[aty]

The following appeal (http://britishfreedom.org/urgent-sdl-members-attacked-information-needed/) was published at the British Freedom Website this morning:


URGENT: SDL Members Attacked — Information Needed

Information urgently needed on Swedish Defence League members with forenames beginning with “I” and “P”. Paul Weston and the two Swedish Defence League members were attacked by a gang of presumed Swedish Antifa members outside a restaurant on Saturday night after the Stockholm rally. It is rumoured the two SDL members were abducted and badly beaten. Please mirror this message across all allied websites.


Update: From Facebook, via Twitter:


Just received a message from “I”. He’s okay but his hat and cell phone were stolen. The other guy named “P” is from Poland and is okay also.

They were attacked by The Revolutionary Front.

[Crux]

The following appeal (http://britishfreedom.org/urgent-sdl-members-attacked-information-needed/) was published at the British Freedom Website this morning:

URGENT: SDL Members Attacked — Information Needed

Information urgently needed on Swedish Defence League members with forenames beginning with “I” and “P”. Paul Weston and the two Swedish Defence League members were attacked by a gang of presumed Swedish Antifa members outside a restaurant on Saturday night after the Stockholm rally. It is rumoured the two SDL members were abducted and badly beaten. Please mirror this message across all allied websites.


Update: From Facebook, via Twitter:

Just received a message from “I”. He’s okay but his hat and cell phone were stolen. The other guy named “P” is from Poland and is okay also.

They were attacked by The Revolutionary Front.
See while I still disagree with this as a political tactic, at least it "gets the job done" as far as what the actions own short term goal is. I shed no tears for EDL scum.

[hatzel]

I'll just let you know that I'm currently half-way between you two...or three, but two camps, whatever.

On the one hand, I certainly acknowledge that black bloc stuff can have a tendency to slip into a self-declared revolutionary vanguard (one which simultaneously denies that they have declared themselves a revolutionary vanguard, of course) having a bit of a laugh doing all their radical posturing without actually doing anything worthwhile, and certainly without any real connection to their surroundings - this obviously (or at least it should be obvious) means that it runs the risk of degenerating into some kind of silly (though actually pretty common) leftist paternalism, those who have themselves decided that they are in a position to represent 'the people' then acting on behalf of 'the people' irrespective of whether or not 'the people' want them to. Given the fact that the vuvu orchestra stuff seemed to be pointing towards a somewhat more lighthearted event with broad appeal, it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that there would probably be a fair few people (your run-of-the-mill liberals, social democrats etc.) there who wouldn't exactly fit into the same category as some oh-so-hardcore black bloc dude, wouldn't be up for any radical posturing, and probably wouldn't want to be drawn into it such a melée unnecessarily and without warning, which can be a frightening and off-putting experience. A certain level of connection between the ants-in-their-pants minority and the somewhat more docile majority would be nice, and is kinda important if the action is going to actually contribute to anything approaching a radical political movement. It seems in this case that the decision to use violent methods wasn't the carefully-timed result of some kind of 'vibe' in the air, people itching to go and just waiting for somebody to make the first move, but just a bunch of people who can think of nothing more radical than throwing stuff at...well, nothing, as far as I can tell...wanting to convince themselves that they are, in fact, still radical.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be seen as particularly surprising that a demo/counter-demo setup involving the EDL on one hand and antifascists on the other might get a tad messy, so perhaps it is fair to expect those who may have reason to avoid confrontation to take precautions, like staying away from the 'front line' so to speak, so that it might be easier to get away should things take a turn like they did. Whether or not it was the right decision for people to kick off at that exact moment - or if there would ever have come a moment when it would have been the right moment to kick off (which doesn't mean that the tactic isn't potentially valid and legitimate in the right situation, which it is, only that the right situation may not have emerged during this exact protest) - should be disconnected from the question of whether or not it was realistic to expect otherwise, and it certainly doesn't seem fair to criticise those who introduced violence to what is always a potentially violent situation, or at least not to criticise them in the way they have been. If somebody doesn't want to attract the attention of the police for whatever reason, then I can think of much better places for them to spend their time than at a protest, just next to the large groups of police that tend to gather at such things. And if somebody wants to avoid violence at all costs, even being in the vicinity of violence, then they should know that such a volatile situation is one they should keep away from; irrespective of whether or not they wanted to engage in the whole thing in a more festive mood, the fact that there were such ardently opposed groups present, kept separate by a police wall, all this stuff...well, the scenario should ring alarm bells, the possibility of confrontation should be obvious and, as I said, people present should probably prepare themselves for that eventuality. The shit may have hit the fan foolishly, depends how you look at it, but acting as if there was no chance of something like that happening, that everybody was caught totally off-guard...well, I don't think that's a legitimate criticism. People on both sides went there because they were passionate about their particular cause, and most people would know that if there are groups of passionate people coming together, there's always the chance/risk of a spark setting something off. Oh, and it should be elementary that you don't take pictures of people in these kinds of situations, so...yeah, I'm not exactly going to cry that hard if people actually thought that was a good idea for some reason and ended up with a broken camera...

Now that I'm sitting here writing this I'm thinking of a section from Uri Gordon's doctorate thesis (or whatever it was exactly), 'Anarchism and political theory.' I'll reproduce the section below (which will hopefully make some sense outside of its original context):

In conclusion, let me look at three more important issues around violence which follow on from the previous discussion.

The first is that prefigurative politics may be seen to introduce a further requirement for justifying anarchist violence beyond the striving, however imperfect, to minimise it. The strong individualist aspect of prefigurative politics would also lead to the demand that the use of violence should be a worthwhile experience in its own right. We can ask, specifically, whether the experience of violence is by itself liberating, empowering and radicalising for those involved.

This again regards the emotional and affective aspects of violent protagonism. In some cases, as with the liberatory claims attached above to wild violence, there would seem to be little leeway for discussion — the experience of irrational, unmediated ferocity can hardly be engineered or summoned up at will. For more pedestrian situations of collective violence, however, several markers can be drawn. In his comparison of two anti-capitalist riots in 2003, Tadzio Mueller (2004) focuses on the context-dependent circumstances in which violence emerges, distinguishing between the affirmative “collective effervescence” of a spontaneous but tactically-effective violent moment, and the stale reproduction of entrenched “us-and-them” dichotomies where tactics are subsumed in a disempowering, set-piece confrontation for its own sake. During the Thessaloniki EU summit,


it was not merely as the result of rote repetition that the militants in Greece kicked off, it was a “rational” response to the structure of the field of militant activism, embodied in a militant habitus which generated a massively violent, but thoroughly expected riot...the riot ended up being fully “normalised”, it was “hegemonic” in some sense...in spite of all the nihilist graffiti and radical posturing on the squatted campus, all that happened was a mere (re-)enactment and reproduction of traditions, habiti, rituals, and power structures — from this perspective, the riots were more conservative than radical (8).This connects to one point that has been evaded so far in the wide debate on black blocs (Bray 2000, Black 2001, On Fire 2001, Anonymous3/4 2003, Gee 2003). Anarchists continuously emphasise that “the black block is not an organisation but a tactic”, as an attempted remedy media misconceptions. However, it is still observable (at least in Europe) that there are many individuals for whom undertaking high-confrontational tactics while dressed in black is the repeated, and often exclusive, form of political expression during international protest events. There is, in other words, a “black bloc” political identity — an organising space within the anarchist movement that has a particular “flavour” or identification. It has several other distinctive features, such as cultural attributes associated with the punk/squat scene, and a disproportionate representation of certain nationalities. A relevant “black bloc” question is whether these identities do not become exclusive and/or constricting for the participants.

In addition, there are serious feminist issues with events such as this. They can be easily interpreted as strengthening “particular ‘hegemonic masculinities’, i.e. that valorise physical strength, machismo (in relation to other men as well as to women), and emotional passivity...[and] perhaps also generates its own momentum and problematic — one which is akin to that also represented by the machismo of a male dominated, body-armoured riot police. Given reports of sexual harassment made by women at the anarchist encampment at Thessaloniki...it indeed is tempting to see an emerging dynamic in militant factions whereby ‘worthy’ political violence is transmuted and normalised ‘back’ into the banal and disempowering violence of everyday sexism” (Sullivan 2004:29–30).

On the other hand, Mueller examines the unexpectedly radicalising and empowering features of a confrontation around the Evian G8 summit a few weeks earlier. The blockade, near the French town of Annemasse where many of the activists had been camping, was not supposed to be symbolic and non-confrontational. It was, in fact, set to take place on the main route into Evian — which the police had already decided, in anticipation of protests, not to use for transporting any delegates or support staff (they were instead driven to Lausanne to take a ferry across the lake to the summit). The event was organised, under strict non-violence guidelines, by the ATTAC coalition — which despite its militant-sounding name is in fact a very reformist and bureaucratically organised group, which lobbies for taxation of financial transactions and other marginal limitations to neoliberalism. However, as the march approached the point of blockade, it received an unprovoked tear-gas attack. Then,


after initially retreating about 50–100 metres and recovering from the initial shock, a number of masked activists, not affiliated with ATTAC, began building a barricade, while others threw stones at the police. Soon, one of the activists who had expressed her anxieties during the march passed me varying an armful of wood for the barricade — which had by now been set alight — exhorting me to join the effort: almost the whole march participated (3–4).In this situation, activists without an experience in confrontation were able to draw on a new and alien action repertoire. As a result, they reported experiencing a qualitative break whereby certain things which were not “possible” prior to the riot had now become possible. Such effervescent riots, for Mueller, are empowering because they can produce sudden and ruptural changes in the established habitus, which lasts beyond the mere event and has effects beyond the circle of immediate participants through its narrative diffusion in movement networks. This is in line with a view that sees spontaneous violence “as a necessary and positive part of revolutionary liberation, not just in defining newly-won freedom, but in creating it...From this perspective violence is part of a total process and the value placed on violence stems mainly from the value placed on the popular self-expression and self- organization characteristic of revolutionary outbursts” (Carter 1978:338–9).

So violence may indeed be intrinsically valuable, through the radicalising effect of participation in its effervescent moments. I would go further to suggest that it is precisely the search for this kind of effervescence — especially the desire to recapture the founding ruptural moments of early mobilisations such as Seattle — that has played a significant part in motivating continued summit protests. However, as is evident from the example, the potential for rupture exists precisely in inverse proportion to how anticipated it is. This makes its planned repetition impossible — which is evinced by the continuing decline in anarchists’ interest in predictable confrontation. This is not to say, however, that moments of rupture cannot still come around — as one did in Stirling, or when schoolchildren led disruptive and confrontational protests against the war in Iraq (BBC 2003).

I personally think he has a lot of really quite decent stuff to say there, ain't gonna lie to ya!

[Crux]

Well, the situation seem to have been that a minority of around a dozen people, not only started throwing stuff, but persisted in doing so as it was obvious that it would provoke the police into breaking up the demo. I honestly don't see why it should be the hundreds that should be expected to act in accordance with the tens and not the other way around, especially with a tactic that directly effects everyone in the demo.

As for wheter anyone was actually taking photos of the black bloc or not, I can't say, but speaking from experience some black blockers might just as well have been so hyped up as to go after anyone holding a camera full stop.

And again people getting so "passionate" is not an excuse for "hey let's throw all tactics out of the window because I want to feel good about myself throwing shit at nothing/other demonstrators/near the police".

[aty]

Leader of Swedish Defence League complains on facebook:
https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/631964274.jpg?key=560111&Expires=1344275365&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=T-wILncPa1mHidOVERvnUjhM6mv2HO9nVLoJavQypuKo6tRUg4R7 AekI6lRK5qj2SXCadOFkYrBgA5VZn26WwIkHCCJT0-FIU4qF7aaCvEdNCC646LOgPCVbT%7E9j81uujYiyLiyGSwtnSg 4D7bRVgcaxwKiqwoqlbIc5wPBx33Y_

[Crux]

Leader of Swedish Defence League complains on facebook:
https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/631964274.jpg?key=560111&Expires=1344275365&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=T-wILncPa1mHidOVERvnUjhM6mv2HO9nVLoJavQypuKo6tRUg4R7 AekI6lRK5qj2SXCadOFkYrBgA5VZn26WwIkHCCJT0-FIU4qF7aaCvEdNCC646LOgPCVbT%7E9j81uujYiyLiyGSwtnSg 4D7bRVgcaxwKiqwoqlbIc5wPBx33Y_
They stole his hate...? Err...what?

[aty]

Think he means hat :)

Paul Weston leader of British Freedom Party also had to leg it, he seems to have a really good security running away from him :)


Paul Weston (http://www.facebook.com/paul.weston.948) · Top Commenter · London, United Kingdom (http://www.facebook.com/pages/London-United-Kingdom/106078429431815)OK, good, I'm glad you were not abducted but both of you disappeared somewhere. The last I saw of P he was in the middle of the road with Revolutionary Front all over him. The last I saw of you was in a headlock by an Arabic looking bloke. I had a scuffle with an RF bastard getting back into the Brother Tuck restaurant to call the police (who never turned up). I came back out to an empty street, went looking for you with a security guy from the restaurant. We went up some steps just to the left of the restaurant and were spotted by about 5 from the RF. Security bloke legged it one way, me another. How did they know we were there?
3 hours ago

[Sasha]

Think he means hat :)

Paul Weston leader of British Freedom Party also had to leg it, he seems to have a really good security running away from him :)

well, the security by the looks of it was from the restaurant, not from weston. if this guy shows up in a restaurant i'm working and claims his friends have been assaulted out front i would walk with him outside too, if i then get jumped by mob in an clearly political skirmish i would leg it too. not my fight, not my responsibility. close the door and let the cops sort the shit outside..

[Olentzero]

you see, thats not how this works, you either principally accept an diversity of actionsOh, I accept diversity of tactics and actions in principle, but those actions and tactics need to be discussed openly and democratically beforehand in planning sessions and the like, not adopted in secret by a small section acting outside that framework who then employ those tactics regardless of the consequences. The Black Bloc doesn't speak on behalf the whole demonstration, and it is arrogant of them to employ tactics like that as if they do.

Majakovskij is dead on target in criticizing the Black Bloc for persisting in throwing these homemade bombs (firecrackers is an insufficient description of the shit they were throwing); the cops suited up for riot control only after the first bombs were thrown. This was a pretty clear signal that all hell had the potential to break loose if people kept that shit up, and the Black Bloc stupidly chose to ignore that signal.

As noted, the net result was that at the demonstration, no EDL members were physically harmed, whereas among other things one of my other comrades was temporarily deafened in one ear by a homemade bomb going off near him, and another protestor was bitten by a fucking police dog while trying to get out of the area.

I hope those Black Bloc idiots are proud of themselves.

[Olentzero]

First off, from the report the comrades just posted from the demo the fireworks damaged none of the EDL thugs, 1 cop and several other anti-EDL demonstrators.Majakovskij, where'd you see that report?

[Sasha]

Oh, I accept diversity of tactics and actions in principle, but those actions and tactics need to be discussed openly and democratically beforehand in planning sessions and the like, not adopted in secret by a small section acting outside that framework who then employ those tactics regardless of the consequences. The Black Bloc doesn't speak on behalf the whole demonstration, and it is arrogant of them to employ tactics like that as if they do.

Majakovskij is dead on target in criticizing the Black Bloc for persisting in throwing these homemade bombs (firecrackers is an insufficient description of the shit they were throwing); the cops suited up for riot control only after the first bombs were thrown. This was a pretty clear signal that all hell had the potential to break loose if people kept that shit up, and the Black Bloc stupidly chose to ignore that signal.

As noted, the net result was that at the demonstration, no EDL members were physically harmed, whereas among other things one of my other comrades was temporarily deafened in one ear by a homemade bomb going off near him, and another protestor was bitten by a fucking police dog while trying to get out of the area.

I hope those Black Bloc idiots are proud of themselves.

Did the non-violent protesters discuss "those actions and tactics openly and democratically beforehand in planning sessions and the like, not adopted in secret by a small section acting outside that framework who then employ those tactics regardless of the consequences."? Afterall, the pacifist "don't speak on behalf the whole demonstration, and it is arrogant of them to employ tactics like that as if they do."
Or are you of the opinion that non-violence is the default? Because in that case you should really read the "how non-violence protects the state" booklet i linked to earlier...

[Olentzero]

Honestly, I don't know how the event was planned and who the organizers were; but given that there was a sound truck and several speakers were lined up for the rally preceding the demo, I assume that there were organizing meetings at which actions and tactics were discussed openly beforehand.

Had the Black Bloc come to these meetings and said "We should chuck homemade bombs and shoot fireworks at the cops" they would undoubtedly have been shut down, so either they didn't show up to organizing meetings at all, or they resolutely refused to abide by the decisions of the organizing committee. Either way they placed their own misguided convictions above all other considerations - like who'd be in the way of the cops when they came in for riot control - and fucked up what could have been a productive, spirited event that would have given people the confidence and motivation to come around the next time.

[Sasha]

Well, I don't know how it goes in sweden, let alone in this instance, but here and in Germany these counter actions are in general organised by AFA/militant antifascist groups. While often an tactical choice is made for an "in principle but depending on the eventual situation" only defensively "violent" approach offensive "violent" tactics are always an option. Principled pacifist groups like churches and mainstream trade unions often have separate actions further away and in Germany even those stand in solidarity with all antifascists.

[aty]

Well, I don't know how it goes in sweden, let alone in this instance, but here and in Germany these counter actions are in general organised by AFA/militant antifascist groups. While often an tactical choice is made for an "in principle but depending on the eventual situation" only defensively violent approach. Principled pacifist groups like churches and mainstream trade unions often have separate actions further away and in Germany even those stand in solidarity with all antifascists.
Trots will trot, and think they own every demonstration...

[Crux]

Trots will trot, and think they own every demonstration...
I guess the irony of this statement given what we're actually discussing is lost on you.

[Olentzero]

Well, I don't know how it goes in sweden, let alone in this instance, but here and in Germany these counter actions are in general organised by AFA/militant antifascist groups.Well, this one wasn't, which to me explains why there were 500-600 people there instead of just a mere handful.
Principled pacifist groups like churches and mainstream trade unions often have separate actions further away and in Germany even those stand in solidarity with all antifascists.You realize that there is a whole spectrum of organizations in between "militant anti-fascist" and "church/mainstream trade union", some of which don't condone or embrace provoking the cops while on a demonstration and who understand the necessity of confronting the fascists face to face, don't you? Why should the tactics of a tiny minority trump that?

And there is a huge difference between standing in solidarity with antifascists and condoning the use of unnecessarily violent tactics just to demonstrate the oppressive power of the state (usually against the wrong targets). I fully support the right of militant antifascists to go to demonstrations and show their solidarity, but I also support the right of the rest of the demonstration to isolate them and shut them down if they start putting the safety of the entire group into question.

[Sasha]

Can you specify what "isolate them" and "shut then down" means already? Because for all your insistence that your not part of the peace police you already several times shown to fully be part of their hypocrisy, slamming a apparently monolithic blackblock for pushing their "violent" tactics but atmitting that you weren't involved in the preparation nor have a clue what the view of the organisers was on a diversity of tactics, apparently pacifism is considered the default setting for you, a position I already explained is an white sexist privileged one that only serves the state.
Also the fact that you slam comrades for not wanting to get photographed shows an disstinct lack of understanding on your side of who in this case is the aggressor.

And by the way, again, I don't know enough about the situation in Sweden but here and in Germany it are AFA who mobilize the big groups, trots just parasite...

[Olentzero]

Can you specify what "isolate them" and "shut then down" means already?Well, for example, surrounding them - maybe facing outwards from them and locking arms - and repeatedly chanting "peaceful protest" to get them to knock off throwing shit.

You're right in that I don't know what the organizers' views on a diversity of tactics actually were, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they would be against anything that would expose people directly to the risk of being bitten by a police dog.

I don't slam anarchists for not wanting to get photographed, I slam them for thinking they have the right to destroy other people's property (i.e. the cameras) because of it.

And, finally, "aggressor" does not mean "the more powerful side", it means "the side that starts shit". In this case, the Black Bloc was the aggressor and because of their harebrained antics, a young Swedish woman will now be scarred for life. All your spouting about white sexist privilege and protecting the state means nothing when protestors get hurt because of Black Bloc actions.

[Sasha]

Oh okay, thats clear than, guess aty was right after all, trots will be trotting, nothing more than the same old swp "all power to the lolipop brigade" with an slightly more radical fineer.

[Crux]

Can you specify what "isolate them" and "shut then down" means already? Because for all your insistence that your not part of the peace police you already several times shown to fully be part of their hypocrisy, slamming a apparently monolithic blackblock for pushing their "violent" tactics but atmitting that you weren't involved in the preparation nor have a clue what the view of the organisers was on a diversity of tactics, apparently pacifism is considered the default setting for you, a position I already explained is an white sexist privileged one that only serves the state.
Also the fact that you slam comrades for not wanting to get photographed shows an disstinct lack of understanding on your side of who in this case is the aggressor.

And by the way, again, I don't know enough about the situation in Sweden but here and in Germany it are AFA who mobilize the big groups, trots just parasite...
Yes, let's ignore actual results in favour of fetishizing a tactic that fuck shit up and then get all pissy when others dare to criticize. So why didn't you have anything to say on, you know, actual police dressing up as black block and using black block tactics as a way to shut demos down? Or I mean should we respect that "diversity of tactics" too? It's funny how "diversity of tactics" can make something that can harm an entire demo, even shut it down, beyond criticism but makes selling papers or having banners a big issue.

Aside from a purely, personal feel all big and bad aspect, I don't think anyone can say that the handful of black blockers tactics on the counter demo were anything but damaging, But hey let's ignore that in favour of straw men about pacifists.

Yes let's all throw tactics out the window in favour of a tactic born out of individualism and myopia. How this is better than the super pacifists who call all militancy violence and thus oppose it I don't know. Two cheeks on the same liberal ass if you ask me.

Do you want me to list demos where our tactic's has succeeded and compare that to the tacticlessnes of riot-fetishism's record of success? Naturally I am most familiar with sweden, but here's one article that was translated:
Thousands of Gothenburg anti-racists hugely outnumber far right rally (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5690)

[Sasha]

yeah, lets have a dick measuring contest, that sounds usefull.
i was going to say something about the anti-edl actions in amsterdam that i actually organised but nevermind, the fact you dont even know that the whole tactic of mass blockades by an "bundniss" of very diverse groups and with a diversity like in dresden, koln and now dortmund (and by the looks of it poorly copied by you in gottenborg) was developed by german AFA makes this a quite pointless discussion...

edit: that article you posted actually proofs my point wonderfully, i understand this is written for your own publication but seriously...

[Crux]

yeah, lets have a dick measuring contest, that sounds usefull.
i was going to say something about the anti-edl actions in amsterdam that i actually organised but nevermind, the fact you dont even know that the whole tactic of mass blockades by an "bundniss" of very diverse groups and with a diversity like in dresden, koln and now dortmund (and by the looks of it poorly copied by you in gottenborg) was developed by german AFA makes this a quite pointless discussion...

edit: that article you posted actually proofs my point wonderfully, i understand this is written for your own publication but seriously...
German AFA and swedish AFA are different, where the former is much broader and the latter seems to live in a semi-existence and much more anarchist based. In gothenburg the black block chose to not fuck up for fucking ups sake and lo and behold it worked much better. This is so obvious stuff it's almost a tautology.

Say what you were going to say and stop using the pacifist straw man. No one in this thread is arguing for pacifism.

[NoPasaran1936]

There's this thing called tactics...
And I don't think the minority who were there to throw shit at the cops has a right to mess thing's up. Now I wasn't there, but I've been on plenty of demo's, yes with blac blockers present too, that have not ended up that way.

I'm sure that passive resistance did well to show the fascists they ain't welcome! I'm sure they stood there thinking "You know what, they're right"

[Crux]

I'm sure that passive resistance did well to show the fascists they ain't welcome! I'm sure they stood there thinking "You know what, they're right"
:laugh: See that's not how it works.

[Crux]

*sigh* at least read what I and Olentzero has said...

[Olentzero]

At this point you know they haven't, they're just coming in to troll.